Terrible News For 02' Celica's

[EzRidA]

SORRY FOR THE LONG READ BUT WORTH IT!
Okay, no one that has a 02' is going to like this. Hell I don't even like this. I put in a 00' GT-S ECU in my car attempting to change the redline. My car would not even crank. I think maybe the ECU was broken, but regardless I have more conclusive evidence.

About an hour ago Raul came over my house. Raul has a 01' GT-S with the same exact options as mine. Only difference being that I have a 02'. We proceded to take out our ECU's and what not. We put it in my car. It starts and we're thinking this is it, it's going to work. No CEL and no problems. We both jump in and go to test drive it. I go to hit lift and nothing. I had no lift. It was disabled. It would redline at 7200 and then die. We tried reseting the ECU and same result. Then we put my ECU in his car. He got a CEL immediately so we didn't even bother to drive it.

Okay here's my impressions. First off Toyota d!cked us bad. Now that thats out of the way, I think the problem may not lie in the ECU it self. Raul and I both think it can be one of these two scenarios. I'd apreciate anyones elses input on these scenarios.

Scenario 1- The oil pressure switch that activates the lift. We think that the ECU may be sending a different signal to the switch since they may not correspond.

Scenario 2- Perhaps the limiter is on the gauge cluster. It's a lot of work to test that out, but if anyone may have some insight as to this let me know please.

Now no one can say that we haven't tried. I did my best for us 02's and to no avail. All I hope is that Weapon-R pulls off the crystals for the redline.

-Dan

[2000REDGT]

I would start with scenario 2. I don't know how you would test it, but when x-evil-x had his gauge cluster out he did not have lift. I don't know if this helps you, but I thought I would mention it.

<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/jodyq43/celsig2.jpg">

[EzRidA]

That's some where to start. Every one's input will help out alot. Thank you.

-Dan

[basic]

it is not alot of werk, just put his gauge cluster in ur car, it is a few screws and 2 clips should take 2 seconds. and try it with both ecu's=)

[B-GTS]

Hey, I'm new to the post but not the issue.

That does suck big time.
I was just about to do the same thing with my 2002 GTS.

It will interesting to see if guage cluster is the source of our troubles.

Plus it would be nice if Toyota head office would be able to shed some light on this issue for us. I've wrote them and no response to be had. Don't worry I plan to hound them more, but first I got my dealer looking into it.

The Matrix rev's higher, wagons shouldn't be more performance oriented than sports cars! Toyota.... wake up!

[yota_racer]

Makes me glad that I bought my Celica back in Nov of 99'. I love the higher redline and fuel cut-off. :thumbup:

[00CericaRuss]

another thing w/the ecu's could possibly be the wiring involved... i've heard it's different.. I could be wrong though

[2000 XYR]

I never fully tested my 6-speed as far as fuel cutoff is concerned. What I mean is that I would generally try to shift at around 8200, but it would grind badly into 2nd when I did so. Quirky part is that I had it up to 8300-8400 RPM and had no sign of a rev limiter or fuel cutoff. It kinda freaked me out. I was too afraid to really check it for fear of blowing the engine. Kinda wish I had now. Sorry, not really relavent, just kind of a random thought. ;)

[2kgtx]

My guess is that if it is an electrical issue outside of the ECU it would be some relay set to cut it off at a certan point, I Wire control systems for Soot Blowers, (auto cleaners for boilers) Normally we use a Time Delay Relay which is set to open a circuit immediate powering and close the other then we can set how long until it closes the open and open's the closed,
I am not sure if this info helps at all but it seems that if they can do it with a time varible why not use the rev's as a verible in a relay.

[larryd]

ive heard that they added an extra knock sensor on the 02 and that would be why the 00 doesnt work.. also the wiring is different from what ive ben told

[X-EVIL-X]

when i had my gauge cluster out lift wouldn't kick in.
i would try the ecu and his gauge cluster also.
that might work

[GTS LAID]

nah outside wiring is the same... at least according to the electrical manual of the car... no new knock sensor.. but the internal software is different i'm sure... besides remember that the cluster is an actual computer in iteself.. so make sure you replace those as well when you swap th ecus

[EzRidA]

Damn guys I don't want to get my hopes up with this gauge cluster idea. It sounds interesting. I'm going to talk to Raul today and see if he want to try it out. I appreciate all your info and insight.

-Dan

[BRAK]

THATS WHY WE NEED WEAPON R .... HELP

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by X-EVIL-X
when i had my gauge cluster out lift wouldn't kick in.
i would try the ecu and his gauge cluster also.
that might work
My guess here would be that you opened the circuit for your speedometer cable by having the cluster removed. Your ECU was no longer receiving speedometer info. There is probably something in the software which prevents the lift from engaging when the car isn't moving. With no speedo reading, the ECU would think the car was stationary.

As for the differences between the two ECUs, I'm still thinking about that one. You have provided some interesting data point. I now have something to ponder.

[EzRidA]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

My guess here would be that you opened the circuit for your speedometer cable by having the cluster removed. Your ECU was no longer receiving speedometer info. There is probably something in the software which prevents the lift from engaging when the car isn't moving. With no speedo reading, the ECU would think the car was stationary.

As for the differences between the two ECUs, I'm still thinking about that one. You have provided some interesting data point. I now have something to ponder.

In all seriousness just knowing that your pondering it makes me feel better. I think it isn't just the ECU. Toyota may have changed something along the way. My car runs fine, but like it never hit the warm up stage. That's why I was thinking that the oil pressure switch that causes lift to engage may be different as well. In other words if I have a 02' with a 01' ECU the signal that ECU sends to the switch is unreadable by the 02" switch. So it thinks that the engine is never warmed up and it stays below 7200rpm. I need to know if these things are for sure if I were to even begin to attempt to try it. Keep the help coming.

-Dan

[marcus_GTS]

Okay, I know this sounds obvious, but was your car warm when you revved it to 7200 rpm with the 2001 ECU? When its cold, my 2001 doesn't engage lift, and the rev-limitter kicks in at 7200 - 7300 rpm. Just a thought.

[Smaay]

hell, when im cold, the rev limiter kicked in at 5400 RPM's once

[EzRidA]

Yes the car was warm. Both our cars were extremely hot. I just want to know if anyone has any insight on the possibilty that the oil actuator for lift and the ECU have changed at the same time.

-Dan

[Jesse IL]

One thing to make sure you remember:
Switching to the second cam isn't as easy as just an oil pressure switch. The computer has to switch to different mapping as well at that point. If you lowered the switch point and were still on the small cam mapping, you could actually lose power.

[Quakey]

why lower the redline????

what is the reason????

[EzRidA]

Originally posted by Quakey
why lower the redline????

what is the reason????

I'm trying to raise the redline to 8,300rpm. Actually its the fuel cutoff that Im trying to raise. Unless your question is refering as to why Toyota did it. The answer would be that they wanted to prevent misshift accidents. How that will help is beyond me. Also the Matrix has the 8,300 cut. I don't understand Toyota at all sometimes.

-Dan

[EzRidA]

TTT

[yakkosmurf]

Perhaps some modifications have been made to the Matrix to make misshifting harder. If you already had the Celica parts built, then it would probably be cheaper to make a fix like an ECU change. It's very hard to determine why design engineers make the decisions they make. We rarely have even half of the data and insight into the problem that they do. Also, we don't know what cost constraints they were held to, nor to we know what the cost of the various options were. It's not worth speculating about. Take it from an engineer. These things are never as simple as the people on these boards try to make them.

[ringthree]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf
As for the differences between the two ECUs, I'm still thinking about that one. You have provided some interesting data point. I now have something to ponder.

GO DATASMURF GO!!!

[yakkosmurf]

Sounds like you need to change your title...

[Chui]

"Sounds like you need to change your title..."

Hmmm... Actually, the reason one would lower the redline and fuel cutoff is for DURABILITY. Period.

[Keyshawn]

If the old 2000 GT-S ECU doesn't work, maybe you should try a Matrix XRS ECU. Maybe that'll work.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Chui
"Sounds like you need to change your title..."

Hmmm... Actually, the reason one would lower the redline and fuel cutoff is for DURABILITY. Period.

Not sure it's that simple. The Matrix XRS has a 8300 rpm fuel-cut. Why would Toyota lower the Celica's fuel cut to make it more durable, yet not be as concerned with the Matrix's durability?

[atehrani]

Originally posted by Chui
Hmmm... Actually, the reason one would lower the redline and fuel cutoff is for DURABILITY. Period.

True, but we all know that redline and fuel cutoff doesn't do much when you miss-shift.....

[SlasherX]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


Not sure it's that simple. The Matrix XRS has a 8300 rpm fuel-cut. Why would Toyota lower the Celica's fuel cut to make it more durable, yet not be as concerned with the Matrix's durability?

cuz the majority of the drivers of the matrix most likely aren't going to be racing their cars nearly as hard as the celi owners..

look for the difference in the vehicles target market.

[Chui]

"True, but we all know that redline and fuel cutoff doesn't do much when you miss-shift..."

Listen up, guys. Your fuel cut-off will NOT save your valvetrain/pistons [and sometimes] engine block if you mis-shift. Period. It only prevents your THROTTLE from accelerating the engine past a certain rpm. You mis-shift ANY car badly enough and you trash parts.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by SlasherX


cuz the majority of the drivers of the matrix most likely aren't going to be racing their cars nearly as hard as the celi owners..

look for the difference in the vehicles target market.

Good point, Slasher. However, they DO refer to the Matrix as a "hot rod" a few times on their website, so they are advertising it for its performance prowess, amongst other atributes.

[2K1BLKCELGTS]

I thought that I read somewhere that the ' "go for throttle up" ' is determined by engine temperture. I wonder if the cooling system is set up differently on the Matrix or if Toyota engineers are concerned about engine temp in the Celica running to high?
Exactly durability.
I just wonder what the engineers feel the point of failure is?

[EzRidA]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
If the old 2000 GT-S ECU doesn't work, maybe you should try a Matrix XRS ECU. Maybe that'll work.

If you read it all, you would see that the 01' GT-S ECU did in fact work. However it would not allow me to go over 7,200 rpm. I highly doubt the XRS ECU would work. So Im not dropping 900 dollars for something that I can't return.

-Dan

[Keyshawn]

I don't consider lift not kicking in and an extremely lowered (for a GT-S) redline "working." When I said "work" I mean work correctly. So why do you highly doubt the Matrix ECU would work? Enlighten me.

[yakkosmurf]

From what I've seen of the Matrix, I'd expect the fuel maps to be a little different. Also, if the redline is back at 8300, that suggests other changes to the ECU as well. It might work, but I don't think it would be worth $900 to find out you're wrong.

[Keyshawn]

Interesting points. Cost aside ($900 is alot), what indicators are you looking at that suggest the fuel maps on the Matrix are different?

[yakkosmurf]

It something that is typically changed when you use the same engine in two types of vehicles. It allows you to match the performance characteristics of that engine toward the use of the vehicle. Maybe you want one vehicle to have more low end power than another.

[Keyshawn]

So theoretically, do ya think someone MIGHT be able to gain some low-end torque with a Matrix ECU in a Celica?

[yakkosmurf]

If that's what they decided to do. I don't know what the engineers had in mind for the Matrix. I know if I was programing that ECU, I'd probably retune it for more midrange power since most of those drivers will be using it for commuting and such. Also, with all that cargo space, people are going to be packing it with stuff. You'd want more low end torque to make it better to drive under those conditions.

[EzRidA]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
I don't consider lift not kicking in and an extremely lowered (for a GT-S) redline "working." When I said "work" I mean work correctly. So why do you highly doubt the Matrix ECU would work? Enlighten me.
When I said working I meant it acutally looked to be functioning. The 00' ECU may have been broken and thats why it never turned my car on. The 01' ECU appeared to work perfectly fine. I had no CEL or any other indications that it would not function. That was until I hit 6k rpm. Then my CEL came on and fuel cut became 7200k.

As to why I highly doubt the Matrix XRS ECU would work is just speculation. A 01' Celica GT-S ECU would not work on a 02' Celica GT-S. Both the cars are of the same platform. Now we take a car from a different platform I personally find it unlikely that it will work properly. Albeit that both cars share just about everything mechanically, however so does the 01' GT-S. If anyone can give me concrete evidence that it could in fact work then I would be more than happy to try. Believe me I wish it would.

-Dan

[exotic performance]

now i will be getting a 02 Gts 6pseed in about 2 months. so are youll saying you would like to raise the fuel cut of because you are unable to stay in the lift between shifts. or it would just make it alot eaiser to stay in the lift.

[EzRidA]

The one two shift is damn near impossible to land on the 02'. The 2-3 shift is hard and tricky. The rest is easy.

For comparisson I raced Raul. I have intake and he has nothing. We did many races. From a stop I had a better launch than him so I was pulling strong up until I shifted to 4th. He gained on me and passed me. I didn't pass him again until 131mph. We raced many times from a roll. Third gear I'd get about a car on him. Fourth he'd pull in front of me. By 105 just getting into 5th I started passing him and he got left behind at least 4 cars. I know the intake made a difference. Yet he would easily kill me in a 1/4 mile stock vs stock.

-Dan

[SY2KCelica]

hey guys...i've been readin the posts and although i dont have much info i'd just like to point out that the matrix engines were made by toyota and the celica engines were made by yamaha. they're the same basic engine just made by two different names. dunno if that would have any effect at all on the ecu?!? but keep on tryin cuz i really want to get a 02 GT-S to replace the 00 GT that i had....but i dont like the fact that i'll be handicapped from the get go

[B-GTS]

Hey EzRida,
Just found out this info from Toyota Canada HQ today.
They changed not only the ECU but also added or modified the O2 sensor. So when we swap out the 2002 ECU for a 2000 or 2001 we will get the CEL or other problems such as the lift not kicking in.
I was also told they currently don't have a fix for it and are not planning to fix. What a bunch of BS!

So the way I see it, Toyota North America has totaly ripped off all of its 2002 GTS owners. They knew they changed it yet failed to inform the consumers. They better act fast because they are about to have a lot of angry owners complaining about false advertising and charging about $8 Grand more for a car that all you get is leather seats and a make believe 180 HP engine.

Hey Toyota, we know your reading this forum, let's hear your comments......

[ArtmanTRD]

A make believe 180HP engine? Are you saying that because you cant change the redline to a higher rPM , say 8300, it cant produce 180 horses?

[EzRidA]

Art what I think he's trying to say is that we can't use the car to it's full potential. We've been deined access to what is easily there. They handicapped us with out prior warning.

-Dan

[GTS LAID]

they've made the car safer cause they've had to pay 13,000 repair bills on cars like mine (00 GT-S) that have undergone mis-shifts... the cup is half full if you ask me... besides, it reaaaaaly doesnt make a big difference in the grand scheme of things. if any kind of forced induction is used on the car then you wont even remember what year it was made. notice that mis-shifting at 7600 is different from misshifting at 8400.. you have an 800 RPM window to play with SAFELY, plus the window that 00 owners have, couple of hundred RPM and you're looking at possibly saving your engine in case of catastrophe.

[Chui]

The c ar is no more safe with the lowered rpm limiter. A good misshift will destroy the valvetrain just like it always has.

The car still makes 180 bhp. They claim 180bhp at 7600 rpm right? I'm not making a stand against you, but TECHNICALLY they are correct. It's just even less useable now.

[B-GTS]

Originally posted by Chui
The c ar is no more safe with the lowered rpm limiter. A good misshift will destroy the valvetrain just like it always has.

The car still makes 180 bhp. They claim 180bhp at 7600 rpm right? I'm not making a stand against you, but TECHNICALLY they are correct. It's just even less useable now.

Actually in my case(if my tach reading is correct) my car can't make 180bhp because that's when my rev limiter kicks in. Even if it'sjust the tach that's not accurate it's not as driveable or it's not as easy to harness the power because you should be able to rev it a least 200pm past 7600rpm.

Yes it will make 180bhp if they remove the rev limiters(remember mine seems to cut out at 7600rpm, maybe yours goes farther...). The motor hasn't been touched, it just the damn electronics. There's potential but Toyota has decided to deny us of it in the name of politics.

And yes, the lower rev limiter will cut down on the amount of human error when they misshift, but you can still blow the motor like you said when you do a good misshift.

My main point is for Toyota to just fix our cars, this is not what we paid for.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by B-GTS


Yes it will make 180bhp if they remove the rev limiters(remember mine seems to cut out at 7600rpm, maybe yours goes farther...). The motor hasn't been touched, it just the damn electronics. There's potential but Toyota has decided to deny us of it in the name of politics.



Agreed. It definitely politics, especially considering that the Matrix and Vibe have the same engine with a higher rev limit.

[Auto[BoT]_GTS]

02 owners.......as myself.......do u guys notice that 1st gear cuts out 7600 and the rest of the gears at 7800?

[EzRidA]

Auot I'm to busy trying not to bounce off the limiter to even notice. I'll post later and share my findings.

About the 180 hp. Like I had said earlier the power is still there, it's just that we can not utilitze it to its full capacity. They handicapped us. Anybody honestly think if enough of us call that Toyota may do something?

-Dan

[Quakey]

i just ordered a '02 GTS 6 speed!

now this really sux

i think we should really complain to Toyota and hope they will fix it (recall?)!!!

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by EzRidA

They handicapped us. Anybody honestly think if enough of us call that Toyota may do something?

-Dan

Anything's possible. People are able to call in to national TV networks and save entire shows from being cancelled if enough of 'em do it.

[t2000gts]

the rev limiter is set by crystals on the ECU itself. you can change this, but you need to change the timing to make up for the higher rpm that the stock maps don't allow for, and you have to take the ECU in itself physically to get changed.

check the Weapon-R ECU thread in the mods forum for more info. they're working on a piggyback ecu unit with an option of shipping in your ECU to get the rev limiter moved to 8500-8600rpm.

[EzRidA]

I have been checking the thread. I really haven't seen much progress since the thread was started. I truly hope Weapon-R can pull this off. I'm not really dying without it, but I am handicapped.

-Dan

[Auto[BoT]_GTS]

i emailed toyotas website.

[B-GTS]

Hey, if anyone is interested in the email response I got back from Toyota's website let me know and I will email it to you. I would post it, but it's a tad to long for this message board. ....and yes the answer is pretty lame.
I'd like to see what kind of response the rest of you get. Should be interesting to compare.

[CelicaDetective]

Cut and paste it! I'm interested in what they have to say. E-mail to Chicagomike@yahoo.com and I'll paste it for you if you don't know how to do that :P

Mike

[B-GTS]

Hey CelicaDetective,

Just sent you the email.
I tried pasting it in the forum but I got the message "too long error". If you can post it that would be great.

As you will soon find out, they didn't even answer half of my questions and the one they did was pretty much useless.
I think we have to keep hammering these guys until they realize they've got a bunch of unhappy customers and are about to lose some huge market share.
As it stands the Celica's largest market is the North America. I was in Japan about a month ago and didn't see 1 new Celica. I asked some Japanese friends about this and they said it's not popular like the old one's. The Japanese seem not to like the shape, hence me not seeing one on the road. On the contray I did see a couple of RSX's. Also I understand it's not that popular over in Europe as well.

[CelicaDetective]

Subject: Re: 2002 Celica Rev Limiter issue. Technical Help please

Thank you for your patience.

Furthermore to your email and our telephone conversation, we have consulted with both our Technical Division and Quality Assurance department and have been advised that Toyota Canada does not publish rev limiter and/or fuel cut-off information. However, if your vehicle revs to 7600 RPM, you should be able to attain the maximum HP for this engine.

If rev limiter is cutting out before the engine of your 2002 Celica
reaches to 7600 RPM then it is certainly a cause of concern and
your vehicle must be looked at by the dealership as they are in a
better position to advise you in this regard.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us.

Regards
Safdar

To: toyota_feedback@toyota.ca

Subject: 2002 Celica Rev Limiter issue. Technical Help please

Dear Sir or Madam,

I just purchased a 2002 Celica GTS from Jackson's Toyota in Nov 2001.
The dealer experience was great.

My concern is about the 2002 Celica GTS rev limiter issue that seems to
be
effecting all 2002 GTS.
On my particular car the rev limiter cuts out at 7600rpm. Which as you
know
happens to be the claimed peak horse-power of this model.
It seems this is a major problem if the car can't even reach claimed HP
level.

Background Information:
I decided to purchase this car on the basis of my excellent driving
experience with a 2001 demo model at the dealer. This model was able
to rev
all they way to 8000rpm which as you know is slightly past the redline
of
7800rpm. Also from what I understand from the pre 2002 models, they
actual
don't have a rev limiter until 8400rpm.

So needless to say, you can say I'm rather disappointed with the
performance
of my brand new Celica GTS.

1) Please advise if this is a recall issue for 2002 models as they do
not
perform as stated by Toyota's spec sheets?
2) Also if possible please advise what would be the cause of this
issue?
Could this be a new ECU from Toyota Japan that prematurely cuts out
early?
Or does another computer module control the rev limiter?

3) I've learned that some people have tried swapping out the 2002 ECU
for a
2000 ECU and this has not changed the rev limiter, actually it has
lowered.
So I'm very curious as to what part mechanical or electrical is causing
this
limitation in the 2002 models.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could advise me on this point.

Also I've inquired with the Jackson's Service Department and they were
unable to help me with these problems. I completely understand that
this
issue is not a Service or Dealer issue but a Toyota Manufacturing
issue.

As a side note, I find it very interesting that the new Matrix with the
same
engine and transmission combo as the Celica GTS is capable of revving
up to
8200rpm.
I wonder why Toyota would produce a wagon that is more performance
oriented
than their only Sports Coupe in Canada.....?

Please advise about the above questions.
I'm looking forward to your reponse.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by B-GTS


Actually in my case(if my tach reading is correct) my car can't make 180bhp because that's when my rev limiter kicks in. Even if it'sjust the tach that's not accurate it's not as driveable or it's not as easy to harness the power because you should be able to rev it a least 200pm past 7600rpm.

Yes it will make 180bhp if they remove the rev limiters(remember mine seems to cut out at 7600rpm, maybe yours goes farther...).
The ECU knows where your engine is. Stock tachometers are not very accurate. Don't trust the stock gauge.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Quakey
i just ordered a '02 GTS 6 speed!

now this really sux

i think we should really complain to Toyota and hope they will fix it (recall?)!!!
Don't hold your breath. I have to say it does make the 02 GTS much less attractive from a performance standpoint. This helps RSX-S sales if you ask me. They will be faster.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by t2000gts

check the Weapon-R ECU thread in the mods forum for more info. they're working on a piggyback ecu unit with an option of shipping in your ECU to get the rev limiter moved to 8500-8600rpm.
Anyone want to guess how many blown motors this will lead to?

[TRlPPlN]

yakko smurf....im with you on this one. bumping up the rev limiter to 8500-8600 would be useless. i think this would only damage the engine prematurely unless stronger internals were in the engine. for some reason our new production engine wasnt meant to handle too much of a high rev unlike old school toyota engines such as 3tc 4age and so forth. those engines were built strong from the ground up.

[yakkosmurf]

I think short term, the engine can take it. But I wonder how it will do over a few months of such operation. Also, the misshifts that occur when someone shifts out of the higher gear at 8600 should be interesting to see. From a tuning standpoint, the capability is nice, but I think people need to look at upgrading their valve train before turning the rev limiter up that high. If you have a 02 GTS, I would turn it up to 8300, but not any higher with the stock valve train config.

[GTS LAID]

man turning up your ecu with aftermarket is asking for trouble... heres the history:

you know that our cars have blown motors

you know they're easy to mis-shift (or easier at least)

you know your warranty will be void with a diff ECU

which means that a little mistake can end up costing you $13,600 dollars (thats how much it cost the dealership on my behalf)

just be careful and play it safe... do you really want a 39,000 celica GTS that cant go much faster than an 2000 one

[yakkosmurf]

Very good points.

[Chui]

"And yes, the lower rev limiter will cut down on the amount of human error when they misshift..."

NO IT DOESN'T.

[CIN]

No offence but you guys need to take driving lessons or go to performance school if you misshift from 5th to 2nd istead of 5th to fourth. Shifts need to be smooth and you should not use brute force to shift. I find it hard to believe that you can shift from 5th to second without the need of brute force to force the shift into second. I am sure the syncros will not help in such situation and so you need to force the shifter a lot to get 2nd from 5th.

[GTS LAID]

i mis-shifted on the way up... 3-2 instead of 3-4 ... 10,400RPM @ 84mph according to the ECU

[GTS LAID]

and yes I needed driving lessons in order to deal with a shady shifter