2zz 6 spd corolla

[FriedRice]

read it on the is3 forums,heres the link

http://is300.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13366336

although u mite need to register....

in short.. may 2004, 2zz detuned to 170 hp ... will be the corolla XRS?

ride height lowered half an inch

dunno i read this off their off topic.... so i dunno how much credibility there is.. but here u guys go :D

[TRD StreetRacing]

it's TRUE!!!!

pics and link of rolla XRS here

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_photos.html?show=photos&page=1&index=TMAkw&kw=Corolla

[CeliCar]

Sounds plenty plausible to me. Passing the engine on down would help the Corolla compete with cars like the Spec-V and keep costs down for Toyota. If it is true then we can probably expect a good bump in power for a next gen Celica.

[TRD StreetRacing]

look at link above ;)

[FriedRice]

wouldnt this be bad for scion?

business wise.... xa and xb should have gotten the 2zz and increased the price by a grand IMO... who wants a 100 hp car anyway?

[CeliCar]

Originally posted by TRD StreetRacing
it's TRUE!!!!

pics and link of rolla XRS here

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_photos.html?show=photos&page=1&index=TMAkw&kw=Corolla


What is with that pic of the gauges... 6400rpm redline and 110mph speedo? Must just be labeled XRS by mistake.

[CeliCar]

Originally posted by FriedRice
who wants a 100 hp car anyway?

The same people who go "ooh thats cute" and buy a car that is shaped like a brick. :)

[FriedRice]

the tach ends at 8k :(

[TRD StreetRacing]

Originally posted by CeliCar
What is with that pic of the gauges... 6400rpm redline and 110mph speedo? Must just be labeled XRS by mistake.

according to the rolla board...they detuned it to be a sporty family sedan...

[TRD StreetRacing]

well it does have a 2zz in there....so i guess that's all it matter

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_photo.html?recnum=005434

[CeliCar]

I wonder when lift kicks in then if that is the actual tach from this model. :)

[TRD StreetRacing]

if u look closely at this pic
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_photo.html?recnum=005021

it looks identicle to the rolla S tech. i wonder if they put the wrong tech in the pic by mistake

[FriedRice]

they messed with the matrix xrs engine to get 173 also....

10 hp is too seroius detuning.... its cuz of the emissions thign they had to add with the matrix....

it has the matrix wheels too... i guess they're solidifying the bond between the corolla and the corolla matrix

[TRD StreetRacing]

rolla matrix??

[NoRulzAt140 Mph]

170 HP. lower redline. I think its gonna be cosndierbaly slower than a GTS & to compete with a spec v maybe ONLY in the 4 door catgeory cuz the spec v is one stout corolla beating car.

[FriedRice]

if u look at the window sticker

it syas corolla matrix.

[KrazY-2K]

Originally posted by NoRulzAt140 Mph
170 HP. lower redline. I think its gonna be cosndierbaly slower than a GTS & to compete with a spec v maybe ONLY in the 4 door catgeory cuz the spec v is one stout corolla beating car.

:stupid:

That 10 less ponies and shorter redline won't help much.

[Keyshawn]

It's good to see that the 2zz will live on in this Corolla XRS. How heavy are the present gen Corollas, usually, anyway? I wonder if it'll have the all-around performance to deal with Spec V, a pretty solid all-around performer for its price range.

[KrazY-2K]

I'd imagine the weight being somewhere in the high 2000's. They're probably less aerodynamic than the Celica so that might also hurt it's top end. Nonetheless as Keyshawn stated, at least the 2zz will live on.

[TRD StreetRacing]

Originally posted by KrazY-2K
I'd imagine the weight being somewhere in the high 2000's.

if i'm not mistaken, they are 2600+lbs

[Keyshawn]

If the 2zz is going into the Corolla XRS and supposedly, the upcoming Scion xC, is Toyota finally gonna get off their a$$es and try to gain some support from the aftermarket for our engine?

[Blue Bomber]

Originally posted by TRD StreetRacing
rolla matrix?? The Matrix is a Corolla in other countries. I think we're the only country that calls it a Matrix. Kinda like teh same concept as Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura.

[sleepy celica]

wow, personally i think its sad how its our 2zz is going to be on a corolla but if it means we're gonna get more aftermarket support, then so be it!!! FIrst the lotus and now a corolla....hMmm..... THE GOLDEN QUESTION!!!...

Lotus + Corolla = more aftermarket support?

[Deaks2]

Originally posted by FriedRice
they messed with the matrix xrs engine to get 173 also....

10 hp is too seroius detuning.... its cuz of the emissions thign they had to add with the matrix....

it has the matrix wheels too... i guess they're solidifying the bond between the corolla and the corolla matrix
The 2004+ Corolla and Matrix variant of the 2ZZ have a new cam which boosts torque to 133 lb/ft all the while reducing power to 173 bhp. It makes the car much more drivable thanks to the wider torque band.

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by Deaks2
The 2004+ Corolla and Matrix variant of the 2ZZ have a new cam which boosts torque to 133 lb/ft all the while reducing power to 173 bhp. It makes the car much more drivable thanks to the wider torque band. Actually, Toyota and Pontiac's websites list the '04 Matrix Vibe as having a peak torque of 127lbft @ 4400rpm. I think that's about 10% stronger than the current US 2ZZ at 4400rpm.

The press release (http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20031105) states that the Corolla XRS makes the same torque, but only 170hp.

But you're right, I'd expect the new tune engine to be more driveable with the improved midrange (and lowend?).

[Deaks2]

Hmm, I could have sworn I read it was boosted to 133 lb/ft... After all the 2ZZ-GE in the GT-S makes 130 lb/ft...

[celicafreek876]

Originally posted by CeliCar
I wonder when lift kicks in then if that is the actual tach from this model. :)

The new Corolla XRS will be powered by a 1.8-liter four-cylinder DOHC engine that produces 170 horsepower and 127 pounds of torque. The engine will deliver a broader and stronger mid-range torque than the previous versions of the 2ZZ engine. And, it will feature a VVTL-i variable valve timing and lift system that produces a supercharged-like rise in power from 6,000 to 7,800 RPM. The result is a compact sport sedan that blends sub-eight-second zero-to-sixty acceleration with exceptional throttle response throughout its broad power band.

from here..
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20031105

[party2go]

Originally posted by Deaks2
Hmm, I could have sworn I read it was boosted to 133 lb/ft... After all the 2ZZ-GE in the GT-S makes 130 lb/ft...

no dom its make 125lbs of torque

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by party2go
no dom its make 125lbs of torque The US market 2ZZ has always been rated at 130lbft @ 6800rpm. Except, the non-Celica '04 2ZZ gets retuned to 127lbft @ 4400rpm.

The US 1ZZ is currently rated 123-140hp and 119-125lbft, depending on application.

[veilsideceli]

those gauges are the same as the corolla S gauges. so they can't be the same for the XRS

[ringthree]

Originally posted by KrazY-2K
I'd imagine the weight being somewhere in the high 2000's. They're probably less aerodynamic than the Celica so that might also hurt it's top end. Nonetheless as Keyshawn stated, at least the 2zz will live on.

Live on? As if they wont put in the 8th gen?

[Keyshawn]

In essence, they made the 2zz's powerband less like the Type R's and more like the GSR's. They shoulda kept the top end power while adding this improved midrange pull. I don't think it would've been too difficult for Toyota to do (while maintaining good mileage, emissions, etc.), considering their knowledge and resources.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by ringthree
Live on? As if they wont put in the 8th gen?

Possibly, but with all the different rumors about the 8th gen that have been going around for years, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion til we hear an official announcement from Toyota about that.

[ringthree]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Possibly, but with all the different rumors about the 8th gen that have been going around for years, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion til we hear an official announcement from Toyota about that.

But would you also agree that Toyota's track record since the introduction of the Celica has been neglectful and anti-performance. I doubt that they would develop a new engine for a car they are not going to support when they have an engine that is less than 6 years old.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by ringthree
But would you also agree that Toyota's track record since the introduction of the Celica has been neglectful and anti-performance. I doubt that they would develop a new engine for a car they are not going to support when they have an engine that is less than 6 years old.

Great point. But then again, there is the rumor that Toyota is discontinuing the Celica altogether to make way for the Scion xC, since they've been banking on the Scion brand for the youth market. Since Toyota can easily go either way with that, nothing is a foregone conclusion, until they announce it.

[ringthree]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Great point. But then again, there is the rumor that Toyota is discontinuing the Celica altogether to make way for the Scion xC, since they've been banking on the Scion brand for the youth market. Since Toyota can easily go either way with that, nothing is a foregone conclusion, until they announce it.

That may be true also, but the rumors I have read and heard are that the xC (which it is not going to be called) is already picked out and it will just be a ported JDM car (something like the Caldina).

But you are right, there is no conclusion about the Celica until Toyota says something official in 2006 (because this model will still be here in 2005!).

[xspwolf]

Originally posted by ringthree
That may be true also, but the rumors I have read and heard are that the xC (which it is not going to be called) is already picked out and it will just be a ported JDM car (something like the Caldina).

But you are right, there is no conclusion about the Celica until Toyota says something official in 2006 (because this model will still be here in 2005!).

that seems about right, I was just thinking how Caldina would be great for Scion, BUT it is an fairly expensive car, i am not sure how will that fit the whole Scion is cheap for under 20s philosophy.

It makes only sense to de-tune 2zz for Corolla, since most ppl driving a Corolla would like more down end torque anyway, plus you gotta have a reason to spend more for Celi.

[xspwolf]

p.s. just to mention it once again, Corolla's around the world already have 2zz in them, North America is one of the few markets where 2zz is not in Corolla. 2zz has plenty of applications, which is why you finally see turbo kits coming in... (Celica, Matrix, Vibe, Corolla in Asia, Europe, Africa, Elise)

[Lord Banshee]

Well it is a good step for Toyota to compete with other sporty mid-size sedans. But come on it has a rear torsion beam ... I don't see me ever driver a corolla. Come on Toyota a torsion beam? Well I am all for the Mazda 3. That thing is bad ass. Looks better than a corolla, has same tranny as Mazda 6, has independent MacPherson strut in the front and multi-link in rear. 2.3L looks nice for gains from aftermarket parts. I think that car companys need to catch up with Mazda. They have the best 4 door sporty mid-size sedans around for the price.

[static]

Toyota is becoming a more pathetic company with each new decision they seem to make. I'm starting to totally write them off as a company that can provide any kind of serious performance cars. Its like all the kids are playing with lego blocks now, and they are still stuck in a Duplo world with the big blocks for the little and retarded kids.

[KrazY-2K]

Originally posted by ringthree
Live on? As if they wont put in the 8th gen?

No one knows if Toyota will put the 2zz in the next gen. Celica.

[KrazY-2K]

Originally posted by static
Toyota is becoming a more pathetic company with each new decision they seem to make. I'm starting to totally write them off as a company that can provide any kind of serious performance cars. Its like all the kids are playing with lego blocks now, and they are still stuck in a Duplo world with the big blocks for the little and retarded kids.

Maybe the new Supra will change that but we still have yet to hear anything official about it...

[Deaks2]

Originally posted by Lord Banshee
Well it is a good step for Toyota to compete with other sporty mid-size sedans. But come on it has a rear torsion beam ... I don't see me ever driver a corolla. Come on Toyota a torsion beam? Well I am all for the Mazda 3. That thing is bad ass. Looks better than a corolla, has same tranny as Mazda 6, has independent MacPherson strut in the front and multi-link in rear. 2.3L looks nice for gains from aftermarket parts. I think that car companys need to catch up with Mazda. They have the best 4 door sporty mid-size sedans around for the price.
Toyota's mid-size car (the Camry, not the Corolla) had a supercharger option from TRD.

You don't see Honda, Nissan or even Mazda (overglorified Ford) doing that, now do you...

2ZZ-GE Corolla = Civic riceboy killer :chuckles:

[static]

Originally posted by KrazY-2K
Maybe the new Supra will change that but we still have yet to hear anything official about it...

Yeah... well they need something to save them cause their vanilla image that they seem so cumfy in is pretty sad.

[FriedRice]

Originally posted by static
Yeah... well they need something to save them cause their vanilla image that they seem so cumfy in is pretty sad.

same could be said about honda. what do they have? buncha girly looking civics and an accord that looks like a streamlined piece of turd. theres also the brick with hemmeroids.

they said they're working on making their products more exciting, but these thigns cant happen overnite so i guess we just sit back and watch.

i'd rather have a thought out product than one rushed out to beat the crowd, and have loads of problems

[static]

Originally posted by FriedRice
same could be said about honda. what do they have? buncha girly looking civics and an accord that looks like a streamlined piece of turd. theres also the brick with hemmeroids.

they said they're working on making their products more exciting, but these thigns cant happen overnite so i guess we just sit back and watch.

i'd rather have a thought out product than one rushed out to beat the crowd, and have loads of problems

At least their accord has 240 HP.. and they have the S2000.. not to mention Acura and their HP numbers and the RSX's aftermarket Support.. Toyota is getting their a$$es kicked.

[Deaks2]

Originally posted by static
Toyota is getting their a$$es kicked.
Not in sales, they aren't.

[Fiero]

Originally posted by Deaks2
Toyota's mid-size car (the Camry, not the Corolla) had a supercharger option from TRD.

You don't see Honda, Nissan or even Mazda (overglorified Ford) doing that, now do you...



Well maybe it's because the V6 that came in Camry's and Solaras only put out 190hp. I believe the Altima puts out 240hp NA and the Accord upwards of 230ish.

And there is no SC out for the 3.3L or the 4.0L in the 4Runner.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Deaks2
Not in sales, they aren't.

In sales to the most coveted demographic, 18-35 yr. olds, they are.

[Chiznarles]

Cool.. my gf drives a corolla S.. i still gotta put the hotchkis springs on her car i've had for over 1/2 a year..

[PoweredbyRICE]

toyotas bankin the sales on their SUVs and trucks..:) duh common guys!

[FriedRice]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
In sales to the most coveted demographic, 18-35 yr. olds, they are.

not quite it seems that toyta has only recently started covetting that..

toyota's got the family man demographic all covered... 15 times over. :D

[Toy Yoda]

Originally posted by Fiero
Well maybe it's because the V6 that came in Camry's and Solaras only put out 190hp. I believe the Altima puts out 240hp NA and the Accord upwards of 230ish.

And there is no SC out for the 3.3L or the 4.0L in the 4Runner.


The V6 from the Camry put out 192hp in the 02-03s. In 04, it will put out 210hp (and once Toyota switches to the 3.3L, ~220hp-230hp).

However, it is important to note that these engines use VVTi, which is incompatible with the TRD S/C. The last model that could use the S/C was the 194hp 1997-2001 Camry.

[xspwolf]

Toyota already released 3.3 225hp V6 in Solara and Camry V6 LE for USA... you can buy it at your local T dealer as 04 model.

Since new V6 just recently came about I would expect TRD to work on it - as to VVTi isssue, keep in mind that new Matrix/Vibe TRD S/C apperantly works on its VVTi 1.8 engine ;-)

[xspwolf]

Originally posted by static
At least their accord has 240 HP.. and they have the S2000.. not to mention Acura and their HP numbers and the RSX's aftermarket Support.. Toyota is getting their a$$es kicked.

S2000 - sports car that never came through, they are so hurting with low sales and hand built engine
Acura - only luxury vehicle brand in the USA that is doing bad.

Toyota - overall currently the best world car manufacturer that just released their record profits ever ;-).

I dont see how them getting 2zz-ge engine in Corolla is a bad thing... sure no supra, but heck like I care, i couldnt buy it anyway... most ppl couldnt in 18-35 demographics.

[Toy Yoda]

Originally posted by xspwolf
Toyota already released 3.3 225hp V6 in Solara and Camry V6 LE for USA... you can buy it at your local T dealer as 04 model.

Since new V6 just recently came about I would expect TRD to work on it - as to VVTi isssue, keep in mind that new Matrix/Vibe TRD S/C apperantly works on its VVTi 1.8 engine ;-)


3.x L V6 != 1.8L I-4.

Unfortunately (as amply demonstrated) TRD isn't exactly concerned about putting out their products in a timely fashion.
I'd venture a guess that the sales of the TRD S/C for the MZ-FE weren't high enough to warrant the modifications needed for it to work with the VVTi engines.

Hell, most of TRD's work goes into their truck engines now anyways.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by xspwolf
I dont see how them getting 2zz-ge engine in Corolla is a bad thing...

I agree. I'm curious to see if Toyota can improve their youth marketing strategy in the next couple years with the Scions and this new performance-oriented Corolla. Right now, I'm not too impressed with current Scions. However, this 2zz-powered Corolla is a step in the right direction. What Toyota needs to do is support it better in the aftermarket and come up with a more appealing ad campaign for it, to appeal to younger buyers. Especially after the piss-poor job Toyota did with the marketing strategies for the Celica and MR2 Spyder.

[xspwolf]

keyshawn - u do understand that scion was never meant to be a sports brand for you? which is why i dont believe those celica->scion bulls... But they are definetly doing good things with scion - those cars have a lot of aftermarket support out of the box, mostly due to Toyota itself. It will be good for next gen Celica and MR2...

[mangoboy7]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
In sales to the most coveted demographic, 18-35 yr. olds, they are.

True, but it seems that that demographic is not as important b/c the older demographic tends to have more money. They'll be screwed 10-15 years down the line for sure when teh baby boomers start to croak

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by xspwolf
keyshawn - u do understand that scion was never meant to be a sports brand for you? which is why i dont believe those celica->scion bulls... But they are definetly doing good things with scion - those cars have a lot of aftermarket support out of the box, mostly due to Toyota itself. It will be good for next gen Celica and MR2...

Who said the Scions were aimed at me? Obviously not, since I'm not looking for a sub $20,000 car. However, when you look at the marketing campaign for the Scions, it's clear Toyota definitely has the import/sport compact niche in mind. That's far different than, say, Toyota's marketing strategies for the Echo or Prius. And as entries into the sub-20K sport compact market, they're still unimpressive.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by mangoboy7
True, but it seems that that demographic is not as important b/c the older demographic tends to have more money. They'll be screwed 10-15 years down the line for sure when teh baby boomers start to croak

Very valid points. Toyota's desire to gain a foothold in the 18-35 demographic is similar to why LeBron James is the most hyped player in the NBA. Not for what he does now, but for what he might do in the future. Considering the average age of the Toyota buyer is 49, they definitely need to gain the brand loyalty of the younger generation to maintain their current lofty status.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by xspwolf
S2000 - sports car that never came through, they are so hurting with low sales and hand built engine
Acura - only luxury vehicle brand in the USA that is doing bad.

Are you sure the S2000's engine is "hand built?" Also, are S2000 sales that low compared to Honda's sales goals for it? I've never read or heard either of those things from a reliable source, but I'm sure there are many S2K and Acura articles I've missed. Also, I know Acura hasn't been as impressive as Lexus or Infiniti as a luxury brand, but I've also never heard that it's the "only luxury brand in the USA that is doing bad." I'd like to hear more about this. Where'd ya get your info?

[FriedRice]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Are you sure the S2000's engine is "hand built?" Also, are S2000 sales that low compared to Honda's sales goals for it? I've never read or heard either of those things from a reliable source, but I'm sure there are many S2K and Acura articles I've missed. Also, I know Acura hasn't been as impressive as Lexus or Infiniti as a luxury brand, but I've also never heard that it's the "only luxury brand in the USA that is doing bad." I'd like to hear more about this. Where'd ya get your info?

the dealer said the engines were hand built... the guy sounded like he knew what he was talking about

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by FriedRice
the dealer said the engines were hand built... the guy sounded like he knew what he was talking about

Then again, often dealers don't know what they're saying. He might have been getting the S2K engine confused with the old ITR's B18C5, which has some minor headwork done by hand. I don't think any of the newer Honda engines get this treatment.

[xspwolf]

not to go too off topic, i will be short:

S2k is partially hand built at the same factory as NSX. This is why Honda never expected to make money off s2k. I was reading some article about low production cars and comparing honda's and toyota's production when it comes to small production carsI am pretty sure that both toyota and honda expected better sales of their roadsters, but nobody is going to say that in public.

I tend to spend about an hour per day just reading automotive articles (mostly business related, i sell cars for living), so there is lot of info in this little head ;-)... There are plenty of reliable sources that follow latest happenings in the industry...

[Fiero]

Originally posted by xspwolf
Toyota already released 3.3 225hp V6 in Solara and Camry V6 LE for USA... you can buy it at your local T dealer as 04 model.



Still underpowered compared to the competition. But then again, Toyota publically stated it won't compete in the HP wars.

[xspwolf]

and i bet it wont torque steer you into the highway wall like new maxima might if you floor it ;-)

[Fiero]

Originally posted by xspwolf
and i bet it wont torque steer you into the highway wall like new maxima might if you floor it ;-)


LOL! That much is true.

[Rave669]

looks like this new corolla uses a 2zz head on a 1zz block. longer stroke=more torque

I quote from an article regarding this motor:

The new Corolla XRS will be powered by a 1.8-liter four-cylinder DOHC engine that produces 170 horsepower and 127 pounds of torque. The engine will deliver a broader and stronger mid-range torque than the previous versions of the 2ZZ engine. And, it will feature a VVTL-i variable valve timing and lift system that produces a supercharged-like rise in power from 6,000 to 7,800 RPM. The result is a compact sport sedan that blends sub-eight-second zero-to-sixty acceleration with exceptional throttle response throughout its broad power band.

Also, toyota/yamaha designed a new engine damper for this car; it may also fit the celica. double check the pics and you'll see it.

Interesting to say the least...

[Tikked Again]

Originally posted by Rave669
looks like this new corolla uses a 2zz head on a 1zz block. longer stroke=more torque

I quote from an article regarding this motor:

The new Corolla XRS will be powered by a 1.8-liter four-cylinder DOHC engine that produces 170 horsepower and 127 pounds of torque. The engine will deliver a broader and stronger mid-range torque than the previous versions of the 2ZZ engine. And, it will feature a VVTL-i variable valve timing and lift system that produces a supercharged-like rise in power from 6,000 to 7,800 RPM. The result is a compact sport sedan that blends sub-eight-second zero-to-sixty acceleration with exceptional throttle response throughout its broad power band.

Also, toyota/yamaha designed a new engine damper for this car; it may also fit the celica. double check the pics and you'll see it.

Interesting to say the least...

They did not do that because they did not change engine the engine designation. It would no longer be caled a 2zz if they changed the block....

That and they the 1zz and 2zz blocks are quite a bit different.

It is likely that they simply adjusted the VVTi (not vvtli) to gain more low end power.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by xspwolf
and i bet it wont torque steer you into the highway wall like new maxima might if you floor it ;-)

From personal experience, torque steer on a FWD car with power in the mid to upper 200's isn't as big a deal as you think (even before I got an LSD). The Camry would be better off if it had power in the same range as the Accord, Altima, Maxima, etc. IMHO, torque steer would only start becoming a big deal in a FWD car probably well over 300 HP.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Tikked Again
It is likely that they simply adjusted the VVTi (not vvtli) to gain more low end power.

There has to be something more to the changes in the new 2zz than a tweaking of the VVTi maps. Otherwise, they'd be able to keep the original top end power numbers while still increasing mid range torque.

[Deaks2]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
From personal experience, torque steer on a FWD car with power in the mid to upper 200's isn't as big a deal as you think (even before I got an LSD). The Camry would be better off if it had power in the same range as the Accord, Altima, Maxima, etc. IMHO, torque steer would only start becoming a big deal in a FWD car probably well over 300 HP.
It depends if the car has equal length half-shafts or not. Otherwise even with an LSD you will go into the highway wall :chuckles:
Originally posted by Keyshawn
There has to be something more to the changes in the new 2zz than a tweaking of the VVTi maps. Otherwise, they'd be able to keep the original top end power numbers while still increasing mid range torque.
Looks more like a cam change. The curve is different everywhere.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Deaks2
Looks more like a cam change. The curve is different everywhere.

Even a cam change doesn't account for why the top end would have to be sacrificed, though. Since the 2zz has two separate cam profiles, couldn't they retain the high lift profile and still be able to tweak the other profile to put out more in the low-end/mid-range?

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Deaks2
It depends if the car has equal length half-shafts or not. Otherwise even with an LSD you will go into the highway wall :chuckles:

Which cars mentioned (Celica, Camry, Accord, Altima, Maxima) have equal length half-shafts and which cars do not?

[Deaks2]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Even a cam change doesn't account for why the top end would have to be sacrificed, though. Since the 2zz has two separate cam profiles, couldn't they retain the high lift profile and still be able to tweak the other profile to put out more in the low-end/mid-range?
I am simply repeating what nxracer wrote in the thread refering to the 2004 Matrix/Vibe having a different powerband with reduced top end power and more useable power down low.
Originally posted by Keyshawn
Which cars mentioned (Celica, Camry, Accord, Altima, Maxima) have equal length half-shafts and which cars do not?
I could not say.

[Celica NZ]

We've had the 2ZZ motor available in our Corolla range for a couple of months as the Corolla GT. In New Zealand.

www.toyota.co.nz

[xspwolf]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
From personal experience, torque steer on a FWD car with power in the mid to upper 200's isn't as big a deal as you think (even before I got an LSD). The Camry would be better off if it had power in the same range as the Accord, Altima, Maxima, etc. IMHO, torque steer would only start becoming a big deal in a FWD car probably well over 300 HP.

hmph, i tend to drive lots of fwd cars and torque steers is a huge issue. My maxima comment was based on Autoweek's test log where two test drivers reported almost hitting the wall on the highway ramp when they floored it (bad). Up to 10 yrs ago, nobody even thought of more than 200hp in FWD. ;-)

As to max hp in Corolla, you wouldnt be wrong assuming its lower for marketing reasons (Celica, etc). I like one sentence that came out of Toyota exec at Sema - something to the likes that Toyota had no cars at SEMA 3 yrs back, and now they are in with Celica, Corolla, Matrix and Scions... that tells you something.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by xspwolf
hmph, i tend to drive lots of fwd cars and torque steers is a huge issue. My maxima comment was based on Autoweek's test log where two test drivers reported almost hitting the wall on the highway ramp when they floored it (bad). Up to 10 yrs ago, nobody even thought of more than 200hp in FWD. ;-

Maybe those testers weren't used to driving FWD cars. I've never had a major problem punching it on a freeway onramp. Nobody I know with FWDs with similar HP and torque has had huge issues with this either.

[RedNOSceli]

somone chop this thing...i need to see it lowered...

http://t.wieck.com/PV/2003/11/04/TYT2003110460194_PV.jpg

[RedNOSceli]

well, once its slammed its not bad..this was a 2min paint lower

http://www.clubcelica.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1068424547.jpg

[xspwolf]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Maybe those testers weren't used to driving FWD cars. I've never had a major problem punching it on a freeway onramp. Nobody I know with FWDs with similar HP and torque has had huge issues with this either.

they do have loads of fwd cars in their test fleet... I mean sure, if you are careful, you wont get any torque steer, but FWD has traction issues in putting down lots of power... it seems as if maxima has pretty nice torque steer issue... traction control owns there. If I floor my Corolla TS (with tc off), it will seriously lose traction even though it is considered as pretty nice fwd, mr2 will not do that ever.

Of course, I am not talkin Celica here... that car has pretty damn nice fwd setup, as good as fwd gets... maxima is nowhere close to that. ;-)

[xspwolf]

to go back to the issue at hand, that xrs looks ok... i am sure it could be nicer with few touches... but then thats why you have celica for... or matrix for that matter ;-)

[Toy Yoda]

Torque steer is most definitely a problem.
I experienced it in my old V6 Camry (1994 model) which had 188hp and at most, a torque figure in the low 200 range (lb/ft), though I experienced it usually when flooring it from a stop.

EDIT:
For a poor student boy like myself, who aspires to drive something more sporting than a midsize family sedan, this could be a good thing (or I could just wait for Scion to come to Canada and get an xA).
Plus, parents tend to trust the "Corolla" nameplate a lot...
Just mumble out the "XRS" part.

[iDRIVE]

BTW, performance car is a niche market. Toyota just wants money. Scion is not a "performance youth car brand". Toyota wants to break even with the 2zz engine, thats why theyre using it all over and whoever wants them. With MR-S getting axed, im not surprised if celica will follow suit and getting replaced by some lame SCION car.

TRD makes engines and what not for racing use only, and thats what toyota wants them to do and supercharge vans :).

[RADR1732]

This is what you all are talking about. Dubbed by Toyota at the SEMA show as the Corolla XRS.

http://www.looksfast.net/online/Portals/6d8a1a1e-2008-45ce-875d-cd98945f5096/TTTGallery/SEMA/DSC01871.JPG

Richard

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by RADR1732
This is what you all are talking about. Dubbed by Toyota at the SEMA show as the Corolla XRS.

http://www.looksfast.net/online/Portals/6d8a1a1e-2008-45ce-875d-cd98945f5096/TTTGallery/SEMA/DSC01871.JPG

Richard

Was wondering, how big is the engine bay compared to the Celica and Matrix?

[xspwolf]

it should be very similar to matrix's, since matrix is based on Corolla.

[Illusive]

sorry guys but I belive an

I TOLD YOU SO should be in order!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

dont believe me check here

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106532

midway down on page 1

:wiggle:

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Illusive
sorry guys but I belive an

I TOLD YOU SO should be in order!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

dont believe me check here

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106532

midway down on page 1

:wiggle:

I'm still very curious about the other part of your prediction that states that the Celica will be discontinued.

[xspwolf]

nah, it will become a scion.

HAHAHAHA!

sorry, could not resist....it aint going anywhere. <- big damn period

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by xspwolf
nah, it will become a scion.

HAHAHAHA!

sorry, could not resist....it aint going anywhere. <- big damn period

Illusive thinks otherwise. Both sides of this debate seem pretty adamant in their positions. I wonder when Toyota is gonna make an official announcement about this?

[TRD Liquid Silver]

i love how you guys bash the automaker that just surpassed Ford globally in sales. they're not stupid, they don't need a AWD Turbo, Rotaries or 3.5L V6 to save the company. these cars do not put money in the bank, they certainly help a company's image, but they don't pay the bills long term. all i have to say is wait a couple of months and you'll see a lot of sick cars coming out from toyota, scion and lexus.

scion was not created for the import enthusiasts, scion was created because toyota wanted to go back to their roots of building affordable, economical cars. they looked at themselves and said we were known as a car company that made afforadable cars and 30 yrs later they've got cars, trucks and suv's that cost $30 to 63K. scion is a way for them to go back to what they were, that's why they chose the name scion which means descendant. again, the marketing people were the ones responsible for the whole gen x and y, which is working. from our last report from toyota 61% of the buyer are under 38 with a lot of parents buying or co-signing for their high school and college kids. and the whole customize idea from the dealer is nothing new for toyota in japan, they've been doing that for years. scion will always will be toyota's entry level division. just because they have intakes, exhaust doesn't make them the next import hot rod.


The Camry would be better off if it had power in the same range as the Accord, Altima, Maxima, etc.

i guess you haven't driven the new 3.3L V6 5spd auto 225hp and 240tq SE Camry. every full throttle step is met with a loud squeal. i still prefer the look of the SE camry vs an accord way too bland and ugly rear end, the altima too contrived with exterior and interior looking like a puzzle with low quality materials and poor build quality.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by TRD Liquid Silver
i guess you haven't driven the new 3.3L V6 5spd auto 225hp and 240tq SE Camry. every full throttle step is met with a loud squeal. i still prefer the look of the SE camry vs an accord way too bland and ugly rear end, the altima too contrived with exterior and interior looking like a puzzle with low quality materials and poor build quality.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the Camry at all. It's a great family car. But IMHO, it would be even better with 15-20 more horses. Then again, this is coming from someone who's modded every car I've ever owned.;)

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by TRD Liquid Silver
...scion was not created for the import enthusiasts, scion was created because toyota wanted to go back to their roots of building affordable, economical cars. they looked at themselves and said we were known as a car company that made afforadable cars and 30 yrs later they've got cars, trucks and suv's that cost $30 to 63K. scion is a way for them to go back to what they were, that's why they chose the name scion which means descendant. again, the marketing people were the ones responsible for the whole gen x and y, which is working. from our last report from toyota 61% of the buyer are under 38 with a lot of parents buying or co-signing for their high school and college kids. and the whole customize idea from the dealer is nothing new for toyota in japan, they've been doing that for years. scion will always will be toyota's entry level division. just because they have intakes, exhaust doesn't make them the next import hot rod...

Valid points. The Scions may have not been designed as import enthusiasts' cars by their engineers, but they're definitely being marketed that way by Toyota's marketing department. IMHO, that's where Toyota miscalculated with our cars.

The MR2 Spyder and Celica WERE designed from the get-go to appeal to sport compact enthusiasts, but their marketing department didn't do a good job in targeting our niche. The magazine coverage and aftermarket support that Toyota is encouraging with the Scions are strategies that were not utilized very well with the Celi and Spyder, but should have been.

[TRD Liquid Silver]

The MR2 Spyder and Celica WERE designed from the get-go to appeal to sport compact enthusiasts, but their marketing department didn't do a good job in targeting our niche. The magazine coverage and aftermarket support that Toyota is encouraging with the Scions are strategies that were not utilized very well with the Celi and Spyder, but should have been.

true, but that's because the celica and mr2 names have been around for 20+ yrs while the scions have been out 6 months. in fact they're not even advertising scions like toyota or lexus. when did you ever see a scion commercial and if you did when was the last time you saw one.


IMHO, that's where Toyota miscalculated with our cars.

don't know about that. look at the celica action pkg, trd suspension pkgs, trd dress up accessories (clear fuel lids headlamp covers, white face gauges, etc). these were all targeted for the import enthusiasts. i can't remember when factory body kits, exhausts, springs, shocks, clutch, strut bars, sway bars, short shifters, intakes were available straight from the factory. now everyone is doing it from Nismo, SVT and Honda. it would have been nice if it was available while purchasing the car a'la scion. but give them time and you'll see more and more sporty toyota's adopting scions method of accessories. just take a look at the 04 matirx brochure and you see a hint of it.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by TRD Liquid Silver
...when did you ever see a scion commercial and if you did when was the last time you saw one...

Exactly. The place where I see Scions the most are in car enthusiast magazines, especially import/compact-oriented magazines.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by TRD Liquid Silver
don't know about that. look at the celica action pkg, trd suspension pkgs, trd dress up accessories (clear fuel lids headlamp covers, white face gauges, etc). these were all targeted for the import enthusiasts. i can't remember when factory body kits, exhausts, springs, shocks, clutch, strut bars, sway bars, short shifters, intakes were available straight from the factory. now everyone is doing it from Nismo, SVT and Honda. it would have been nice if it was available while purchasing the car a'la scion. but give them time and you'll see more and more sporty toyota's adopting scions method of accessories. just take a look at the 04 matirx brochure and you see a hint of it.

Other than exhaust, TRD USA did not address the Celica's and Spyder's biggest area of need: more power. Also, Toyota did not encourage as much support from aftermarket companies and automobile publications as they could have, in order to make these two cars bigger players in the import/compact scene. Those are a few things that limited the impact these otherwise great cars ultimately had on the market.

Not-so-coincidentally, Toyota seems to be trying to NOT make this same mistake again. This time around, they are trying to get more exposure from the mags and more support from the aftermarket companies with the Scions. Hopefully, they continue this strategy with the 2zz-powered Corolla.

[gilboman]

for what its worth i read in businessweek today an article about Toyota's rise in the automotive world and specifically mentioned Scion as a success...sales are 2x that were intially projected.

[Keyshawn]

That's an excellent article (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_46/b3858001_mz001.htm). It clearly points out both Toyota's great strengths and also those areas of need I had mentioned before. If their marketing and engineering departments could inject a little more excitement into the mix, they'd have no weaknesses.

One thing that I didn't expect is the initial success of the Scions here in Cali. Toyota's new enthusiast-centered marketing campaign for the Scions is working much better than I had imagined for those cars. Although they should have used these strategies earlier, it's a great sign that they are using them now. This paragraph addresses some of the issues I have also discussed:

"Can anything stop Toyota? There are some potential roadblocks. Toyota doesn't always get it right: Its early attempts at the youth market, minivans, and big pickup trucks all disappointed. It remains dependent on the U.S. business for some 70% of earnings. Its Lexus luxury sedans are losing ground to BMW, though Lexus' strong SUV sales are keeping the division in the game. The average Toyota owner is about 46, a number the company must lower or risk going the way of Buick. And most of Toyota's big sellers aren't exactly head-turners."

[TRD Liquid Silver]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Exactly. The place where I see Scions the most are in car enthusiast magazines, especially import/compact-oriented magazines.

i remember trd ads in SCC, Import Tuner, Turbo mag with a silver celica with the trd body kit and black mr-spyder. i just think the reason why you see scion so much is because they're so new.

Also, Toyota did not encourage as much support from aftermarket companies and automobile publications as they could have, in order to make these two cars bigger players in the import/compact scene.

i agree with the aftermarket company part. with scion they gave aftermarket companies prototype cars a year before it's release to develop parts. it was a first time for toyota and hopefully future models will follow.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by TRD Liquid Silver
...with scion they gave aftermarket companies prototype cars a year before it's release to develop parts. it was a first time for toyota and hopefully future models will follow.

:werd: I hope they follow this strategy with the 2zz-powered Corolla XRS and with other cars they release from now on.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by TRD Liquid Silver
i remember trd ads in SCC, Import Tuner, Turbo mag with a silver celica with the trd body kit and black mr-spyder. i just think the reason why you see scion so much is because they're so new...

The key factor is whether Toyota will continue to market and support the Scions long-term instead of giving them an initial push, then forgetting about them like they did with the Celi and Spyder.

[xspwolf]

Scion is a separate brand, and knowing partially how Toyota does business, they have a completly new Scion division that is responsible only for Scion marketing and support, they have their own budget and are responsible for their separate business plan.

You should think of Scion push being similar to Lexus push in early 90's... just different market