View Full Version : My crazy idea...
Pondering the possibility of a crazy engine swap. Cutting out the rear trunk and back seat area and constructing a firewall and window directly behind the driver's seat, then reinforcing the remaining rear for mid engine installment in the Celica. Then taking an enigine and tranny set up and putting it in the back. A fuel cell could be relocated to the front where cross braces could be welded in. In thinking about all the modifying required, I was thinking a full fire wall would be installed and bracing to back it.
Cooling would be a concern, so I was thinking of following the lines on the Celica lower sides and creating ductwork that would pull air into twin, small radiators: Maybe something from a 300Z. The shift linkage is something I was thinking about. I want to learn more about an engine that would work for this idea and I'm wondering if it's tranny could be linked up to the stock 2zz shifter... and if so, how.
The big thing is what engine and tranny to go with. It would have to have a FWD tranny or mid engined tranny to work. I could go four, but it would have to be a turbo four if so. I was thinking a Camry 5spd V6 supercharged would be perfect, but then I found out that the enigine and tranny are mounted side to side instead of inline front to back. The set up would really need to be front to back to fit I think. I like the idea of V6 for size and I like the idea of a V8 for raw power and appearance, but I don't know if it would fit.
Like I said, this is a wild idea, but I think the conversion to RWD and mid-engine would be sick. So, I would like to get everyone's thoughts and ideas. What engine do you think would work best? I'm trying to stray from MR2 turbo, because I would like to see torque out of this without having to worry about turbo costs. An affordable engine is important. My buddy said a Cadillac Northstar engine would be great because it is a V8 and FWD. Just dunno about the availability and cost. I'm also most likely missing something in all this planning, so chime in with comments and suggestions.
Thinking along the lines close to that of the Ferrari Modena in engine placement, firewall placement and cooling ducts in the bottom sides.
http://www.fast-autos.net/ferrari/stradale7.jpg
http://www.fast-autos.net/ferrari/stradale8.jpg
My trunk:
http://www.bolicious.com/Celica/strutbar/images/DSC02091.jpg
J5ISALIVE
12-18-2003, 07:00 AM
um...its an idea..cost thought would be well over 16k i would think. This is a ton of custom work...
as for engine...hmm..let me think for a few minutes on that.
Cool idea...worth it? no. cool though
J5ISALIVE
12-18-2003, 07:02 AM
wow...hold the phone...what is holding down your tray in your trunk? i hate those plastics things....looks like u got somthing metal...
Originally posted by J5ISALIVE
wow...hold the phone...what is holding down your tray in your trunk? i hate those plastics things....looks like u got somthing metal...
It is not incredibly hard to use a little smarts and put in some screws/bolts or whatever you like down there instead ....
BrianGTS
12-18-2003, 07:18 AM
Nice to meet you, Mr Jesse James...
PhatCellyGT
12-18-2003, 07:21 AM
Knowing Bo....he'll probably do it
Well, if I were to do it, I would get all the parts first, then all the tubing and sheet metal, and go from there. My hope is to learn how to weld from a class. Then after that, go to a good friend who builds one off race chassis for a living (He did all our race cars) and get his help on it. He owes me. :)
Anyways, what I would like to do is garage the car over a winter and do the build up as much as possible. These guys do full build ups on cars from the chassis design, build, engine install, and custom suspensions and all that. Basicly, these guys are the sourse I would need, but I would like to do most of the work myself with a close watch from their eyes.
Like I said, at the moment, it's an idea. I can still do a 3 S swap, but I don't want FWD. And if I'm going with a RWD conversion, I may as well go all out.
Originally posted by J5ISALIVE
wow...hold the phone...what is holding down your tray in your trunk? i hate those plastics things....looks like u got somthing metal...
Just a few nuts and bolts. I have replaced plastic screws and tabs where ever possible on the car with metal ones.
Originally posted by BrianGTS
Nice to meet you, Mr Jesse James... I get told I look like him when I wear my beanie actually. LOL.
Nah, that guy is sick. And if he doesn't inspire you to realize that anything is possible, I don't know who will. I do want to keep the thinking realistic and logical for the most part. I mean, I would like to drive this thing regularly during the warm months without running into problems. And in the end, the install needs to look clean. Plus after doing the last full rebuild myself literally, I am really looking forward to doing this as well.
Will knows. ;)
WutARyd
12-18-2003, 07:33 AM
use a modena's v8 :thumbup:
dragonglen
12-18-2003, 07:45 AM
I'm guessing you'd have to modify the suspension in order to handle the new weight distribution, and you'd probably want to fabricate something in the front for storage since you won't have an engine there. Too bad you couldn't put the fuel cell there.
I wonder how the handling will be with all the weight in the back considering the car was designed as it is in its current configuration.
FriedRice
12-18-2003, 08:00 AM
what happened to using caldina drivetrain for an AWD setup?
Originally posted by FriedRice
what happened to using caldina drivetrain for an AWD setup?
Automatic tranny.
Originally posted by dragonglen
Too bad you couldn't put the fuel cell there.
Why? Safety reasons? Hmm, if I have to retain stock fuel location, I would have to keep the engine small or transverse or both. In this case, I could go back to the SC Camry v6 or MR2 Turbo ideas I had
F35-JSF
12-18-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by J5ISALIVE
um...its an idea..cost thought would be well over 16k i would think. This is a ton of custom work...
as for engine...hmm..let me think for a few minutes on that.
Cool idea...worth it? no. cool though
:werd:
S|Lv3rBu||et
12-18-2003, 09:32 AM
You would be my hero.
Make it happen man!!
v0idGT
12-18-2003, 09:42 AM
I think anything bigger than a turbo 4 or a small 6 and you're going to have major weight issues. A 3S-GTE is not a light weight engine already.. And if you want the engine to be visible like the ferrari's, you might as well have a cool engine back there.
As far as "IF" you change to RWD, you would pretty much HAVE to change to RWD or AWD if you put the motor in the back. Right now, our motor is over our drive wheels, and it keeps the wheels down and helps traction. But if you move the engine to the back and you keep the car FWD, when you get on it there's gonna be no traction.
Those are just the problems I see. Other than that, sounds cool.
v0idGT
12-18-2003, 09:49 AM
Also, with the engine in the back, there might be a problem having a turbo b/c there won't be a lot of exhaust piping going straight back. It could still be done, but I imagine the gas tank would have to be moved as metioned earlier.
Off-topic: Did you paint your interior plastics that darker color? Looks hot!
wgaughan
12-18-2003, 09:51 AM
Anybody have the picture of a 2JZ back there? It was posted a long time ago.
DopeCelicaGT
12-18-2003, 10:09 AM
You could put a V8 back there it would just be a pain in the ass cause you would have to do all kinda of custom work but then again it looks like your into doing that anyway so. I say go for it I wish i hads the money to try something this courageous!!!!!!!
InfoJunky
12-18-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by GTSnut
Why? Safety reasons?
:AF: Yes! If you had a head on collision with something the fuel cell would blow. That would not be fun.
ChinboGTS
12-18-2003, 10:17 AM
The title says it all: my CRAZY idea
but hey anything possible... so go for it!! :D
00 LSM GTS
12-18-2003, 11:53 AM
that idea would get you the best celica evar!
Originally posted by v0idGT
I think anything bigger than a turbo 4 or a small 6 and you're going to have major weight issues. A 3S-GTE is not a light weight engine already.. And if you want the engine to be visible like the ferrari's, you might as well have a cool engine back there.
As far as "IF" you change to RWD, you would pretty much HAVE to change to RWD or AWD if you put the motor in the back. Right now, our motor is over our drive wheels, and it keeps the wheels down and helps traction. But if you move the engine to the back and you keep the car FWD, when you get on it there's gonna be no traction.
Those are just the problems I see. Other than that, sounds cool. I don't want FWD.
Originally posted by v0idGT
Also, with the engine in the back, there might be a problem having a turbo b/c there won't be a lot of exhaust piping going straight back. It could still be done, but I imagine the gas tank would have to be moved as metioned earlier.
Off-topic: Did you paint your interior plastics that darker color? Looks hot!
Well my concern with a turbo anything, is the cooling factor. I mean I would have ducting much like a F360 or MR2, but that's only in the sides. I would like to try to keep the car from looking like swiss cheese while still keeping it cool.
Yeah, I dyed the entire interior black and coated the tray and loading ledge in black rubber.
Tien's 00celica
12-18-2003, 01:45 PM
What if you used one of the Toyota truck engines that can be S/C?
Plenty of power, sh!t loads of torque and reliable.
Just my .2 cents
v0idGT
12-18-2003, 02:41 PM
Well, you sound like you're working up a pretty good plan. I say go for it! :thumbup:
freshspecblueGT
12-18-2003, 02:49 PM
Man I love hearing people come up with crazy/creative automotive ideas.
i think you've touched on most of the valid problems, cost, cooling, fueltank, etc.
As far as moving it to the front I think that there are some fuel cells built for Porsches which mount in the front.
I would wonder how the chassis would react to the power coming from the rear wheels when it was developed as a front drive platform. I have a feeling it would be difficult to but any kind of power down in a corner without spinning, since it is already possible to make the tail step out pretty easily with a little throttle lift in the corner or left foot braking..
I know this only a hypothetical Idea (At this point anyway) but it is iinteresting. Does anyone have any real idea about how the chassis might react to rear drive? engineers, builders?
Originally posted by Tien's 00celica
What if you used one of the Toyota truck engines that can be S/C?
Plenty of power, sh!t loads of torque and reliable.
Just my .2 cents
Might work if I use a 4x4 tranny. I wonder how that would work though. Since the Tacoma and 4 Runner are set up to run RWD until 4wd mode. Hmmm. May have to look into the trannies and how the 4x4 system really works. I mean, do you think you can shut off the Rear diff and run only the front full time some how so it can be used in a mid engine set up? Because other than that, it would have to be front engined.
Originally posted by freshspecblueGT
Man I love hearing people come up with crazy/creative automotive ideas.
i think you've touched on most of the valid problems, cost, cooling, fueltank, etc.
As far as moving it to the front I think that there are some fuel cells built for Porsches which mount in the front.
I would wonder how the chassis would react to the power coming from the rear wheels when it was developed as a front drive platform. I have a feeling it would be difficult to but any kind of power down in a corner without spinning, since it is already possible to make the tail step out pretty easily with a little throttle lift in the corner or left foot braking..
I know this only a hypothetical Idea (At this point anyway) but it is iinteresting. Does anyone have any real idea about how the chassis might react to rear drive? engineers, builders? Well I think I would be adding a bit of weight over all to the car. The first thing I will do tonight as soon as I get home is look at my Ferrari Modena book. They talk about the design and everything of the chassis in pretty good detail. I figure, that the Celica will be pretty well reinforced when all is said and done with a tube roll cage of sorts. Then add in a possible bigger engine, a full fire wall and glass and I think the car will see a good 2900 lbs. That's just a rough guess of course. Then I will read up on where Ferrari put their gas tank. I was looking at my scale model and I cant find the damn thing.
SilverBullet GTS
12-18-2003, 07:44 PM
What is that orange celica floating around here with the side vents in it? Fabricate something like that too cool the engine!
Tikked Again
12-18-2003, 07:59 PM
Ok...
Engines that you may like
The V6 from the NSX is FR mounted so it would easier to fit than say the transverse mounted camry v6. Plus you have the transaxle with engine. Exspensive but refined.
How about the Suby STi engine, low end torque and high end hp. You just have to remove the driveline going to the rear 'axle'. Of course there's room for more HP as well. The width of the flat-four may be an issue.
Can't think of much else right now for the engines.
Now....Cooling:
I would suggest following suite with how the Mr2 is setup. Radiator up front with the coolant lines running back to the engine. You get to keep the stock location of the radiator and there is obviously much better airflow than using side-scoops.
Power Steering:
Steal the setup from the MR2 Spyder (I don't know if this is different on older MR2's). The pump is run on an electric motor when the car is started. Everything is located in the front of the car which will help balance out the chassis.
Shifting:
You can probably use the shifter from the GTS but you will most likely have to modify the shift linkage on the tranny. Just a thought.
Rear suspension setup:
Do you want to borrow the suspension from the engine donor vehicle? Or will you be designing your own? You'll need the hubs from the donor vehicle to fit the halfshafts on (If your not doing customizing in this area). I see the suspension geometry and strength being one of the most challenging parts.
Anyhow....if you want ideas from guys who do this kind of crazy thing on their own, and cheaply, check out http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com/board/viewforum.php?. They love coming with ideas like this.
Off the top of my head I remember at least one person who built a rear engine Ford Fiesta using the Taurus SHO motor. They built and ran it in the 2003$ GRM Challenge.
Tik
InfoJunky
12-18-2003, 08:08 PM
They did it to a focus. :rolleyes: http://www.focaljet.com/allsite/content/phasex.html
Good Luck with the Celi! :thumbup:
DopeCelicaGT
12-18-2003, 09:57 PM
I would like to do IT to that girl in your sig Infojunky LMAO!
Zensoku
12-18-2003, 11:39 PM
At the honda tech school in japan, they do that all the time.. Midengine b series in a bunch of different cars for projects. And with all the resources you have, Im sure you can do it.
Tien's 00celica
12-19-2003, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by GTSnut
Might work if I use a 4x4 tranny. I wonder how that would work though. Since the Tacoma and 4 Runner are set up to run RWD until 4wd mode. Hmmm. May have to look into the trannies and how the 4x4 system really works. I mean, do you think you can shut off the Rear diff and run only the front full time some how so it can be used in a mid engine set up? Because other than that, it would have to be front engined.
I think it would work fine. If you use the engine/tranny of a 2wd you should be ok. But if you want to have some fun follow me on this one.....
Why not use the 4WD setup like in the trucks where its RWD till you the driver puts it in 4WD? There are two differant ways that are most commonly used.
1) a lever type shifter that lets you go between 2wd, 4wd high, and 4wd low.
2) a push button that does the same, but is more complicated.
I mean, do you think you can shut off the Rear diff and run only the front full time some how so it can be used in a mid engine set up?
This depends on how YOU want to set it up. you could set it up a couple differant ways.
1) RWD when in 2wd to give you the MRWD affect.
or
2)FWD when in 2wd to give you a unique mid engine FWD set up.
Personally I would set it up as a RWD.
It could give you a nice advantage on the track sending power to all 4 corners, or in the snow or rain where mid engine cars like to step out from you.
When in 2WD you have all the fun of a MRWD.
It would be like the Skyline where the computer decides where to send the power, either rear=100% or 50-50 (and everywhere in between) except it is you that decides where you want the power, not some computer.
Tien's 00celica
12-19-2003, 06:37 AM
I just noticed your in Reading, PA thats only about 2 hours away from me, If you decide to do this or any other things ( I have an even crazier idea that I have been drawing up for some time now:evil: I just need the $$ to do it) I could be up for a trip.
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