new scc issue's top 8 car choices

[dragonfrog]

in alpha order:

acura rsx-s
0-60: 6.9s
1/4: 15.0s
speed: 94.5
weight: 2775

ford svt focus
0-60: 7.9s
1/4: 15.8
speed: 89.5
weight: 2750

hyundai tiburon gt v6
0-60: 7.6s
1/4: 15.6s
speed: 88.8
weight: 3023

mazda miata
0-60: 8.2s
1/4: 16.0
speed: 84.5
weight: 2400

senta spec v
0-60: 7.4s
1/4: 15.4s
speed: 90.8
weight: 2743

toyta celica gt-s
0-60: 8.1s
1/4: 15.8s
speed: 88.6
weight: 2522

toyota mr-s
0-60: 7.0s
1/4: 15.1s
speed: 89.1
weight: 2195

subaru wrx
0-60: 5.7s
1/4: 14.1s
speed: 94.6
weight: 3085

some crazy stats. i don't know if they used the same driver or not, and how accurate it is, but i thought i'd give a heads up.

[Arghman]

The frick 15.8!?

[Zorn]

15.8 = Automatic Tranny :rolleyes:

[static]

Will somebody for the love of god, please learn to drive our car!?!?!

[6SPDGTS]

They had a problem with the ECU read the article before posting. The revlimiter kicked in at 7500

[dragonfrog]

Originally posted by static
Will somebody for the love of god, please learn to drive our car!?!?!

ditto. considering it was a 6sp that they drove.

[dragonfrog]

Originally posted by 6SPDGTS
They had a problem with the ECU read the article before posting. The revlimiter kicked in at 7500

that is true too. i should have mentioned that...

[AkUmA]

0-60 in 8.1 seconds? did they start in 2nd gear? 15.8 1/4? ahhh yeah ok, maybe they were pulling a trailer down this 1/4...:rolleyes:

[djm221]

Why didn't they use the 14.9 number they got before with the Celica? To date, they are really the only ones from a mag that wrang out proper numbers from the car in the 1/4 mile.

All of the other numbers seem accurate. That Focus is a little dissapointent in the acceleration department. One of these days I will actually see some of these cars on the road and whoop up on them (WRX excluded).

[gts24]

WEll here comes the little riceboys on clubrsx.com ... good greif, magazine racing at it's finest. There can't be an average age of over 16 on that damn website...


dam nit I hate that Bob Barker.....

[B-GTS]

From the 2002 GT-S owners point of view this may actually be a good thing.....
If a major car magazine like SCC is reporting this rev limiter problem, then hopefully Toyota will wake up and see that there is a major problem with the ECU and fix it. Otherwise Toyota and their new Celica owners have a pretty pathetic Sports Coupe considering it just got spanked by a Focus and a Hyundai.


Disgruntled 2002 Celica GT-S owner.

[Dealer Xing]

The rev limiter is in place to prevent misshift.

If I am not mistaken, only USDM 2002 6Spd Celica has a reprogrammed ECU to suit the drivers here because American drivers don't have to pass a driving exam with a M/T equipped car
Elsewhere in the world, you don't even have to press the clutch to start the car. Guess why.

[Blastofo]

What a shizzy time.

So I guess the rsx is almost a second faster than our cars? And the spec v will be able to hand it to us? And that a miata will hang almost even with us?

Okay.

[atehrani]

Originally posted by Dealer Xing
The rev limiter is in place to prevent misshift.

Wrong, the rev-limiter will not prevent a miss-shift. Otherwise why do they happen in the first place. They moved it down to "lower" the probability of it happening. What pisses me off is that they lowered it for the Celica to 7800 and they kept it at 8200 for the Matrix.

WTF Toyota????

[Dealer Xing]

True, the rev limiter will not prevent misshift, but it will make the driver less likely to rev past redline, thus reducing adrenaline rush and reduce misshift.

[CelicaDetective]

I emailed the editor and technical editor of SCC, and you should do the same:

Toyota changed the fuel cutoff on the 2002 model Celica GTS from 8200RPM to 7600RPM. This has been the talk of the Celica message boards since

[Keyshawn]

Toyota really did Celi enthusiasts a disservice by lowering the rev-limit on the Celica. And its like a slap in the face that the Matrix (and even the Pontiac Vibe) has the 8300rpm redline with their 2zz engines. Hell, every GT-S not sold in America still has the 8300 cut off, if I'm not mistaken. Gutless move on Toyota's part. I'm glad I own a 2000 model.

[Jnsd]

damn the hyundai stats are better than ours:

hyundai tiburon gt v6
0-60: 7.6s
1/4: 15.6s
speed: 88.8
weight: 3023

toyta celica gt-s
0-60: 8.1s
1/4: 15.8s
speed: 88.6
weight: 2522

[dragonfrog]

yeah. that was really dissapointing. however, looking at the rev limiter problem, the celica would have done better. i was especially worried about the $14000 se-r. the focus stats were a downer too.

[SmittyVVTLi]

That tiburon is running faster times than my friends SI was before the supercharger. Damn I could only get such a crappy time if I were to miss 2 gears.

[atehrani]

I e-mailed them too CelicaDetective about a few months ago. Good luck on getting a reply :(

[gts24]

Well in a few years here when the next gen celica is out, and whatever webboard is in power at the time ;) people looking to buy a used 7th gen will come on a website and ask, which Celica should I get... And everyone will hammer this person... don't get anything after 01.............
Toyota really really blew it this time. Who do they think is gunna be driving the Matrix that'll be such a better driver than someone who's gonna buy the Celica.
The matrix is aimed at the same "youthful crowd" as the Celica. Toyota you blew it huge.

so here's the question for everyone. When are we gunna see 2003 models hittin the showroom floor? I only ask this cuz then we will get to see if toyota keeps their head up their ass or not

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Zorn
15.8 = Automatic Tranny :rolleyes:
Sadly...no. That was a 6-speed. The auto would need NOS to run a 15.8.

[yakkosmurf]

I was impressed with the 15.1 for the MR2 Spyder. Someone knew how to launch.

[gts24]

Someone wanna post some email address's so that we can start the bombardment? This is just ridiculous. The MR2 gettin better times than the GT-S.

[CelicaDetective]

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com

And you can click on contact and I choose to e-mail the Editor and CC the Technical Editor.

Mike

[gts24]

scotto@mcmullenargus.com,davec@mcmullenargus.com,s portcompactcar@mcmullenargus.com


I sent my email. There's the address's everyone. that should make it easier for you to go ahead and submit your notice that this sucks

[ringthree]

Originally posted by Dealer Xing
The rev limiter is in place to prevent misshift.

If I am not mistaken, only USDM 2002 6Spd Celica has a reprogrammed ECU to suit the drivers here because American drivers don't have to pass a driving exam with a M/T equipped car
Elsewhere in the world, you don't even have to press the clutch to start the car. Guess why.

Hey didnt you misshift?

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by gts24
Someone wanna post some email address's so that we can start the bombardment? This is just ridiculous. The MR2 gettin better times than the GT-S.
Easy explanation is that someone got a great launch in the MR2. Second, as others stated, the fuel cutoff was well below 8300 for the test. What are you going to do? Email them and ask them to fake their numbers? This is why I say look at all the mag times available, not just one, and not just the best. During their test, they could only get a GTS to do a 15.8. Just take it as it is. A single data point.

[Jnsd]

i guess it's fair enough, they probably didn't have any experience driving any of the cars on that list...I'm sure if they had more practice with each car, the times would be different for all of the cars including the celica.

[racinjason]

Yeah. But for all of those mag racers out there this will be thier only data point. It makes our cars look bad. If this were to happen with an ITR they would go nuts. And be jumping up Hondas ass to figure out the explaination. It explained our "problem" in one sentence. And left it at that. Now we the owners gotta deal with Johnny Ricer when he reads this copy of SCC and he trys to tell all of his friends that ALL Celicas are slow etc. etc. I get tired of hearing about it. I dealt with this BS with mishifts all the time. Now that RSX's do it on a regular basis it has finally stopped cause Honda/Acura can't do no wrong in some peoples eyes.

[gts24]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

Easy explanation is that someone got a great launch in the MR2. Second, as others stated, the fuel cutoff was well below 8300 for the test. What are you going to do? Email them and ask them to fake their numbers? This is why I say look at all the mag times available, not just one, and not just the best. During their test, they could only get a GTS to do a 15.8. Just take it as it is. A single data point.

Um yeah, I realize that. But you as well as I know that if this were happening to a Honda vehicle they would've went on and on about this and that as to why it was happening. I'm not asking them to FAKE NUMBERS, I am asking them to talk to Toyota about this and see if they can use their "pull" in the import community to help us out. Simple as that. Also on another note, we know that the GT-S will kill the MR2 stock for stock IF (REMEMBER I SAID IF) that damn rev limiter wasn't set at 7600 or 7800 (whichever it is)

[dragonfrog]

I didn't mean for this to become such a drama... Geez. Hey! Notice that there's no Hondas? Well... except for Acura. But to me they're different.

[Rocket]

they could've used a GT to get those times.. is this really accurate which means that the 02's are much closer in performance to a GT?? how can this be... even with the screwed up ECU, the GTS still has 40 more hp

[CelicaDetective]

SCC is one of the first to test a 2002 Celica, with is very different from 00 and 01 because of the fuel cutoff - and it makes THAT much of a difference.

M

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by racinjason
Now we the owners gotta deal with Johnny Ricer when he reads this copy of SCC and he trys to tell all of his friends that ALL Celicas are slow etc. etc.
So let them find out the truth the hard way. You guys get too annoyed by the comments of the uninformed.

[gts24]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

So let them find out the truth the hard way. You guys get too annoyed by the comments of the uninformed.

Very good point. Always have to look at both sides of what is going on..................

[Chui]

Originally posted by racinjason
Yeah. But for all of those mag racers out there this will be their only data point. It makes our cars look bad. If this were to happen with an ITR they would go nuts. And be jumping up Honda's ass to figure out the explaination. It explained our "problem" in one sentence. And left it at that... Now that RSX's do it on a regular basis it has finally stopped cause Honda/Acura can't do no wrong in some peoples eyes.

I agree with the BELIEF [I have no proof, but I FEEL that it is so] that SCC would have had an aside little article describing the differences between the last Honda they drove and the newer, slower model. But then, the ITR was made for apex clipping to a fault - which is why the 2003 or 4 model does not perform in this arena as well as the 1997 thru 2001 models.

Actually, the RS-X doesn't misshift. The owners misshift. Toyota, on the other hand, DID, in fact, revise the internals of the transmission last year. One can assume that the number of claims with editorials from some magazines encouraged them to make those changes. I haven't driven a 2002 model so I cannot say if it's any better than before.

As for the redline limiting issue is concerned... I don't like it. The looks of the car combined with the way it handles and brakes... and the aforementioned 6 speed transmission now seem out of place if all one can get is 8.0 seconds to sixty [a MEANINGLESS METRIC, HOWEVER] and a 15.8 second 1/4 mile time. I have no idea what GM East - oops, Toyota Motor Company is up to. I see this as further proof of their business ethics, or lack thereof.

Yes, it still would make 180 bhp at 7,800 rpm and a torque peak of 133 lb-ft at 6,800 rpm, but in order to fully utilize the bhp one must be able to rev the thing a couple of hundred rpm above the bhp peak before the redline. Otherwise it's just too damned peaky of a powerplant. Even with the 8,300 rpm fuel cutout the 2ZZ-GE powerplant - or is it the fukked up gearing? - was too peaky. What Toyota has done is a disservice to the auto enthusiasts that supported it after it's six year hiatus. I would/will encourage more people to buy Honda RS-X Type Ss instead of GT-Ss.

Sorry to rant, guys.

[TonyC]

I could be wrong but i think my 00GT is faster to 60 than the 02 GT-S? drove an 02 GT-S, that redline does suck i could'nt stay on the big cam

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Chui


As for the redline limiting issue is concerned... I don't like it. The looks of the car combined with the way it handles and brakes... and the aforementioned 6 speed transmission now seem out of place if all one can get is 8.0 seconds to sixty [a MEANINGLESS METRIC, HOWEVER] and a 15.8 second 1/4 mile time. I have no idea what GM East - oops, Toyota Motor Company is up to. I see this as further proof of their business ethics, or lack thereof.

Yes, it still would make 180 bhp at 7,800 rpm and a torque peak of 133 lb-ft at 6,800 rpm, but in order to fully utilize the bhp one must be able to rev the thing a couple of hundred rpm above the bhp peak before the redline. Otherwise it's just too damned peaky of a powerplant. Even with the 8,300 rpm fuel cutout the 2ZZ-GE powerplant - or is it the fukked up gearing? - was too peaky. What Toyota has done is a disservice to the auto enthusiasts that supported it after it's six year hiatus.



I totally agree. Toyota punked-out big-time.

[yakkosmurf]

Chui makes some good points. I don't think you an design a tranny to go with such a peaky engine. Toyota needs to do something to broaden the powerband to more than 1800 rpm, or it's pretty much useless. I almost think the GT would be more fun to drive. Toyota needs to go back to the drawing board. Redo VVTL-i so it can kick in at 5k to 5500. Then they might have something.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

Sadly...no. That was a 6-speed. The auto would need NOS to run a 15.8.

i dunno, not an auto GTS (more likely to run 14.8 with nitrous). not even an auto GT i think.

maybe an auto GTS with lots of n/a mods :D

BTW, we have solutions for that powerband problem coming up. just need someone to get their @#$%ing ass to weapon-r so they can test out the 8500-8600rpm rev limiter crystals. then you'd stay in lift in all the gears without a problem.

[yakkosmurf]

It depends on the nitrous level. Point is, I'm pretty sure a 15.8 is a poorly driven 6-speed or a fake badged GT.

[6SPDGTS]

Answer me this if the revlimiter kicks in at 7500 rpms how were they able to dyno it to past 8000rpms?????

[kabal57]

Actually, the RS-X doesn't misshift. The owners misshift. Toyota, on the other hand, DID, in fact, revise the internals of the transmission last year. One can assume that the number of claims with editorials from some magazines encouraged them to make those changes. I haven't driven a 2002 model so I cannot say if it's any better than before.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but when I talked to the guys at WCToyota the other day I was told that the internal part #s for the 00 and the 02 gts were the same. Now if this is the case, how could they have revised the tranny internals with the same parts? From what I understand they just made the shift gates a little wider, but The dude at WC told me that they are the same internally.

[atehrani]

"Actually, the RS-X doesn't misshift. The owners misshift. Toyota, on the other hand, DID, in fact, revise the internals of the transmission last year."

So in other words your saying the RS-X's tranny is designed correctly and the Toyota one is not. Did the thought ever cross your mind that Toyota re-designed it, because of all of the poor drivers out there, so that they could save some money and not waste it on fixing miss-shifts?

Nah that can't be it, Honda makes everything better than perfect. :rolleyes:

[xav3x]

1: like yakko said.. let them find out the hard way....

2: miss-shifts are because of the loser driving the car.. not the car... and not the redline...

[Chui]

Did Toyota NOT make any revisions to the transmission? Did any magazines THE WORLD OVER NOT make comments about the shift gates?

I understand you love your cars and the manufacturer but no company is foolproof.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Chui
Did Toyota NOT make any revisions to the transmission? Did any magazines THE WORLD OVER NOT make comments about the shift gates?

I understand you love your cars and the manufacturer but no company is foolproof.

IMHO, Toyota's coverage of blown engines due to misshifting and their revisions to the tranny are NOT necessarily because the GT-S tranny is flawed. It is merely an indicator that they don't have the balls to stand up to American drivers and tell them that it's the DRIVER'S error.

The fact that Honda does NOT cover misshifts and has not revised the RSX's shift gates (at least not yet), does not necessarily show that their tranny is designed better. It is merely an indicator that they, unlike Toyota have the balls to put the responsibility where it belongs: on the driver.

I think both cars are easy to misshift not because they are inherently flawed, but because they are both close-ratio 6-speeds driven primarily by younger, inexperienced drivers (who like to race). But that's just my opinion.

[dragonfrog]

IMHO, Toyota's coverage of blown engines due to misshifting and their revisions to the tranny are NOT necessarily because the GT-S tranny is flawed. It is merely an indicator that they don't have the balls to stand up to American drivers and tell them that it's the DRIVER'S error.

uh...toyota takes care of its people.

I think both cars are easy to misshift not because they are inherently flawed, but because they are both close-ratio 6-speeds driven primarily by younger, inexperienced drivers (who like to race). But that's just my opinion.

that's more the reason most believe. no one blames a tuned machine. u blame the person that's controlling what it does.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by dragonfrog
uh...toyota takes care of its people.


True, but in doing so, they make their own product look bad. When outsiders look at what Toyota did, it leads them to believe that there IS something flawed about the GT-S tranny.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by atehrani
"Actually, the RS-X doesn't misshift. The owners misshift. Toyota, on the other hand, DID, in fact, revise the internals of the transmission last year."

So in other words your saying the RS-X's tranny is designed correctly and the Toyota one is not. Did the thought ever cross your mind that Toyota re-designed it, because of all of the poor drivers out there, so that they could save some money and not waste it on fixing miss-shifts?

Nah that can't be it, Honda makes everything better than perfect. :rolleyes:
I don't think there are problems with either one. The Celica seems to have suffered more misshifts in its first year than the RSX. I know a guy who misshifted his Prelude. What does that mean?

There is also some preliminary evidence that the RSX engine might hold up better to a misshift than the Celica engine. The verdict is still out on that one. Time will tell.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


True, but in doing so, they make their own product look bad. When outsiders look at what Toyota did, it leads them to believe that there IS something flawed about the GT-S tranny. Very true. How do you think the shareholders feel about the money spent?

[ringthree]

Originally posted by Chui
Did Toyota NOT make any revisions to the transmission? Did any magazines THE WORLD OVER NOT make comments about the shift gates?

I understand you love your cars and the manufacturer but no company is foolproof.

Wow that is REALLY bad logic from such an intelligent person. There is a correlation but no causation. Dont confuse them.

[EzRidA]

Well I have a 02' and the ECU does make a noitceable difference. Racing a 01' GT-S with the same mods I was able to hold my own until 5th gear. Each time I would have to shift before him and he would get 1/2 a foot and level out. Until 5th, on 5th he just starts to walk away.

Also I went to the track on Wed. It was my first time ever there and I ran a 15.564 as my best. I have an Injen CAI and a short shifter. In all honesty I could've been capable of a low 15 high 14 time. I just need work on my launch. My complete time is posted on the 1/4 mi. database.

-Dan

[cam_n_scott]

Hellen Keller could get the GTS to 60 in less than 8.1

[Chui]

Believe what you wish. AUTOCAR, MOTOR, WHEELS, EDMUNDS and AUTO MOTOR und SPORT all criticized the shifter as did, I think, Motor Trend. 1st and 3rd were too close and I also discovered this BEFORE reading about it. I've been in the auto industry for the better part of 13 years and I know how these matters are settled. I saw it with the '91 Corvette engine and I see it now. The customers rarely do. Furthermore, if Toyota didn't think it was a potential litigation nightmare then why put the garbage truck tone in the vehicle when you're in reverse?

[Keyshawn]

Chui,
Ultimately, we can argue this point until we are all blue in the face. However it is an interesting debate. IMHO, in regards to including a beeping sound when the car is in reverse, that is another piece of evidence that Toyota is merely more overcautious and conservative than Honda (you yourself called them GM East, and I agree), and not a true admission that their tranny is inferior. Think about it. If Toyota anticipated litigation problems back when they first put that beeping feature on their Celicas, why didn't they space 1st and 3rd gear out in the first place?

Another thing I am uncertain of: Did Toyota make revisions to the Celica tranny and redline WORLDWIDE or just in the U.S.? To the best of my knowledge, they only revised American vehicles, which supports the theory that they are not fixing an actual flaw with the car. Maybe some of our members in Europe and Japan can help shed some light on the subject.

[DevlynSyde]

Is it just the people who have misshifted already that say its a flaw in the car, or does anyone else think this? I like how close it all is and would never call the transmission a flaw.

[B-GTS]

Originally posted by DevlynSyde
Is it just the people who have misshifted already that say its a flaw in the car, or does anyone else think this? I like how close it all is and would never call the transmission a flaw.

Check out the Honda S2000, it's gates are just as close as the 2000-2001 Celica models. Not sure if they have got the same problem with people mishifting or not.... I've driven both cars hard and never had a problem finding the right gear. Actually thought they were the nicest M/T I've every had the pleasure of rowing.
My personal guess, is that most people who have misshifted are perhaps inexperciend in driving a M/T car, let alone one with 6 gears. Just my opionion...... could be wrong though......!

[dragonfrog]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Another thing I am uncertain of: Did Toyota make revisions to the Celica tranny and redline WORLDWIDE or just in the U.S.? To the best of my knowledge, they only revised American vehicles, which supports the theory that they are not fixing an actual flaw with the car. Maybe some of our members in Europe and Japan can help shed some light on the subject.

My guess is that it's only been done in North America. Japanese drivers go through an expensive and intense driver's course, unlike we do here where our parents teach us or we learn on our own, then take a driver's test.

[RACERGTS2000]

I have mis shifted before and do not believe there is a flaw I was just inexp. and I wanted drive like the drifters in Japan before I could even drive straight.
Also to those people who said a GT-S would kill a MR2 Spyder are wrong a Spyder is very quick off the line because they have the best drivetrain you can get. BUT After second gear a GTS pulls very hard away I know this because my girlfriend has one. (MR2)

[dragonfrog]

uh. forgive me if i'm wrong but if a gts does not kill a spyder what would u call "after second gear a GTS pulls very hard away"

[larryd]

you know the only good thing about this article.. is for the 00-01 model 6spd GTS's that are still capable of pulling very nice track times.. alot of people will expect even less of them now..

[Johan]

Quote Keyshawn
---------------------------------------------------
Another thing I am uncertain of: Did Toyota make revisions to the Celica tranny and redline WORLDWIDE or just in the U.S.? To the best of my knowledge, they only revised American vehicles, which supports the theory that they are not fixing an actual flaw with the car. Maybe some of our members in Europe and Japan can help shed some light on the subject.
----------------------------------------------------------


I can not speak for the japanese market but the european celica's did not have a revisions to the Celica tranny and redline.

[larryd]

according to Toyota all the part #s are the same for anything in the transmission that youd think could have been changed.. seems they only changed the shifter housing.. to make the gates wider and lowered the RPMS..