My thoughts on an 05 Celica. *56k no*

[Bo]

First, if you are just thinking, "Repost" or "not this again" and are about to post that ghey rolleyes smiley with a stupid repeat comment, move onto another thread. Thanks. This is also going to be a fairly lengthy post, but I think it will make for a better discussion than say, "What rims should I get?"

http://www.bolicious.com/misc/randt.jpg

This is the article for the Road and Track Speed magazine of the supposed 05 Celica. This picture has been posted on the board already as with a few other ideas of what the new car will look like, but I thought the article was interesting. When I first saw the pic posted on this board, I thought, "Looks like a good idea, but it has no legitimacy."

First, this is definitely a chop. If you look closely, the interior is the 7th gen dash, seats and a pilar. However, that doesn't mean that this isn't a very accuarate representation of what it may look like. And this is why I say this. Most magazines publish info 3 months behind. If I put breaking news in a magazine today, it will be in June's issue because of standard print delay. That means that this issue was put together at least 3 months ago.

Well, on the next page of the magazine there was this picture of the new Toyota hybrid. It was a rendering that brought to mind that someone saw it, then tried to draw it later from memory or something. Obviously it looks a lot like the actual concept does. This makes me think that maybe the same thing is going on with the Celica and Supra concepts. The concept Supra is in the US on the Arizona proving grounds, but I don't have definitive pics of it yet. Grrr. So I don't know how off or on this rendering of it is.

Super Hybrid Rendering in this Road and Track issue and then Volta concept they were referring to that was realeased on 1 March.
http://www.bolicious.com/misc/HYBRID.jpg

Back to the Celica. I think this rendering may be damn close to the new model for a few more reasons. The Celica model is due to be replaced in less than 6 months. This means they are going straight to production this late in the game. We may see a concept, but I can guarantee it's been built for a while now and they already went through the prototypes which are most likely in the finishing parts of testing. Over the next month or two they would have to start finalizing factory production plans.

So what's all this mean? Well, one possibilty is that the car is a new car, but using existing technology, so no real technological breakthroughs to publish in concept form like the super hybrid car is. Will they still use the 2ZZ? Doubt it. Really, they tapped the power with the 7th gen. To compete in today's market, the car needs 220+ hp. Preferrably more, but not neccesary to be marketable against the direct competition in it's price and class. Well, much like the new Scion tC, Toyota decided to use existing technology, parts and platform. They built the car off the Japan only Toyota Caldina.

Scion tC
http://www.scionlife.com/gallery/tc/tc01.jpg

Toyota Caldina
http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/gallery/albums/Misc/caldina_fb.sized.jpg

Using the Caldina platform for the tC, they were able to go with a number of different drivetrains being that the Caldina comes available in many different options including AWD and 3SGTE. Toyota decided to go with the 157 hp 2.4l 4 cylinder out of the Camry. They pulled out 160 hp and are giving it an optional SC that puts numbers up to 200+. What's all this BS have to do with the Celica?

It looks like Toyota may be doing what they did with the 7th Gen when they then used a basic corolla chassis to develop the Celica concept. According to this artical in Road and Track, Toyota is looking at going with much of the tC Chassis (Like Camry vs IS330) and letting Yamaha trick out the head (Like the current GT vs. GT-S) to pull out an aditional 30+% horsepower out of the Camry motor. They mention AWD from the Caldina, and from what the reports are on that drivetrain, it is very durable, but I doubt they would put it in the Celica if they use the 2.4 motor.

Basically, as I compared the artical of R and T, Toyota is either making a sporty version of a tC on Steroids, or the magazine saw the tC and thought it was the new Celica. I don't think the 2nd option happened though, because as many similarities as there are between the tC and the Celica, visually it would be like confusing a current Camry with a current Solara... Same bones, different skin.

Your thoughts?

[2002GT_Celica]

Nothing but a bunch of speculation backed by virtually no hard evidence. This is worse than the countless "Supra concept" posts.

[WillyWonka]

All of the cars look good. If they come with the advertised power and look, great. They need to be on the show floor for me to get excited. I have seen too many drawings.

[Bo]

Originally posted by 2002GT_Celica
Nothing but a bunch of speculation backed by virtually no hard evidence. This is worse than the countless "Supra concept" posts. Great insight captain.

[xspwolf]

First of all, tC is based off Avensis, same as Caldina. It has been done so with minimum modifications so they can offer the car for cheaper. In fact, new Avensis has back suspension setup straight from Celica - so you can say it uses Celica suspension :).

And new Celica will never use Avensis platform - simply because it is too long and heavy, this is why basic Corolla platform has been used for Celica before - it is much lighter. This does not mean that Celica will be somehow same as Corolla or that tC will be better handler than Celica - it will not. Celica is one of the best FWD handing cars and Avensis is an sedan that uses modified Celica chasis but Celica would out-run it in million ways.

And who told you new Celica is coming out within next 6 months? Even if it is, nobody would know about it... thats how Toyota works.

There is nothing to be gained for Celica if they use some longer and heavier wheelbase, if they wanted they could have designed current Celica with 4WD in mind (platform can take it) and bigger engine bay (platform can take it) and still save few hundred pounds with smaller platform. Keep in mind that if they use heavier platform then extra power from that "2.4 VVTLi" engine would be all used up to carry heavier platform so nothing would be gained in terms of acceleration...

And I also very much doubt that 2zzge is going anywhere from Celica, it will stay there in some shape and form and it is being included in many new Toyota models - which makes it significantly cheaper to produce.

Few points for future Celica's
- current non Celica 2zzge implementations are cheaper than 20k
- tC with SC will be slower car than 2zzge Celica due to weight and will cost around 20k
- which means that new Toyota sporty can should be priced with 20k above... (keep in mind that 20k in US means 30-35k in other countires due to higher taxes)

It makes more sense to develop 8th gen as 20k-30k car, with base engine being modified 2zzge and higher end version being more powerful and more costly.

I dont see them fitting V6 into Celica, but who knows, new V6 with 250hp from new GS seems like a good idea, if not expensive one...

I could write and write and write, probably 50 pages on my thoughts what would 8th gen be, but it would be all bull as is every single speculation that you can currently read anywhere.

We wont know until Toyota does it, and we dont know when will it be. Toyota will replace its whole lineup within next 2 years and completly redo Lexus

Toyota new product list (actual year when it will be shown, not model year)

2005 major releases
- completly new Yaris, Echo
- completly new Rav4
- completly new Tacoma
- completly new Thundra
- completly new Lexus GS
- Completly new Lexus IS
- facelift for Land Cruiser Prado (4runner)
- facelift for RX330


2006 major changes
- completly new Corolla
- completly new Camry
- completly new Land Cruiser
- Completly new Lexus LS
- Completly new small city car developed with PSA

- facelift for Avensis
--------------------------

Which means that the whole damn Toyota range will be revamped by this time 2 years from now (or it will be shown and sold as next year model).

And that means that Toyota is going to spend a lot of damn money on that and thats not even counting all those other models that will be introduced and based off these cars...

Nobody knows wtf will Toyota do with Celica, it might become an 300hp hybrid that will do 0-60 in 5 secs, nobody knows.

What we do know that it takes between 24 and 36 months to develop an new model, so Celica is going to see 8th gen its development should have started by now. And other thing we now is that all Toyota's will be HSD powered in the future, so the next Celica will probably be able to take it as well.

at the end, it is all bull**** and we simply do not know.

[Bo]

Originally posted by xspwolf
First of all, tC is based off Avensis, same as Caldina. It has been done so with minimum modifications so they can offer the car for cheaper. In fact, new Avensis has back suspension setup straight from Celica - so you can say it uses Celica suspension :).

And new Celica will never use Avensis platform - simply because it is too long and heavy, this is why basic Corolla platform has been used for Celica before - it is much lighter. This does not mean that Celica will be somehow same as Corolla or that tC will be better handler than Celica - it will not. Celica is one of the best FWD handing cars and Avensis is an sedan that uses modified Celica chasis but Celica would out-run it in million ways.

And who told you new Celica is coming out within next 6 months? Even if it is, nobody would know about it... thats how Toyota works.

There is nothing to be gained for Celica if they use some longer and heavier wheelbase, if they wanted they could have designed current Celica with 4WD in mind (platform can take it) and bigger engine bay (platform can take it) and still save few hundred pounds with smaller platform. Keep in mind that if they use heavier platform then extra power from that "2.4 VVTLi" engine would be all used up to carry heavier platform so nothing would be gained in terms of acceleration...

And I also very much doubt that 2zzge is going anywhere from Celica, it will stay there in some shape and form and it is being included in many new Toyota models - which makes it significantly cheaper to produce.

Few points for future Celica's
- current non Celica 2zzge implementations are cheaper than 20k
- tC with SC will be slower car than 2zzge Celica due to weight and will cost around 20k
- which means that new Toyota sporty can should be priced with 20k above... (keep in mind that 20k in US means 30-35k in other countires due to higher taxes)

It makes more sense to develop 8th gen as 20k-30k car, with base engine being modified 2zzge and higher end version being more powerful and more costly.

I dont see them fitting V6 into Celica, but who knows, new V6 with 250hp from new GS seems like a good idea, if not expensive one...

I could write and write and write, probably 50 pages on my thoughts what would 8th gen be, but it would be all bull as is every single speculation that you can currently read anywhere.

We wont know until Toyota does it, and we dont know when will it be. Toyota will replace its whole lineup within next 2 years and completly redo Lexus

Toyota new product list (actual year when it will be shown, not model year)

2005 major releases
- completly new Yaris, Echo
- completly new Rav4
- completly new Tacoma
- completly new Thundra
- completly new Lexus GS
- Completly new Lexus IS
- facelift for Land Cruiser Prado (4runner)
- facelift for RX330


2006 major changes
- completly new Corolla
- completly new Camry
- completly new Land Cruiser
- Completly new Lexus LS
- Completly new small city car developed with PSA

- facelift for Avensis
--------------------------

Which means that the whole damn Toyota range will be revamped by this time 2 years from now (or it will be shown and sold as next year model).

And that means that Toyota is going to spend a lot of damn money on that and thats not even counting all those other models that will be introduced and based off these cars...

Nobody knows wtf will Toyota do with Celica, it might become an 300hp hybrid that will do 0-60 in 5 secs, nobody knows.

What we do know that it takes between 24 and 36 months to develop an new model, so Celica is going to see 8th gen its development should have started by now. And other thing we now is that all Toyota's will be HSD powered in the future, so the next Celica will probably be able to take it as well.

at the end, it is all bull**** and we simply do not know.

First, great post.

You said a bunch of things about the tC that I knew simply because my girl is getting one so I've researched the heck out of it. I think it's going to make a great entry level car.

However, you said that the celica would never use an Avensis chasis, but then continued on to say that the Avensis chassis is indeed a modified version of a Celica Chassis. In essence, they are the same chassis then. Also, the Celica didn't always have an emphasis on great handling, but never the less the tC shows great promise in handling. The Celica and Matrix are both on the same platform the Celica will run circles. So chassis using a tC chassis base is a definite possibility. Toyota makes many decisions to save money, and it wouldn't surprise me if they did this as well.

As for knowing if the Celica comes out in the next 6 months, I have been hinted that it will, but those are just hints. The Supra is already being tested I know that much for a fact. As for the Celica again, I chose the 6 month mark as this... if they come out with a new celica model on same replacement schedule as the rest of their cars, then we would see the first models arrive in late August in US showrooms. I am just using Toyotas pattern of producing vehicles to theorize on a Celica possibility. But you are absolutely correct. No one in my earsite knows for sure the future status of the Celica.

Mentioning the use of a heavier platform nulls the added performance. At the same time, look Toyota's history of developing the Celica. It hasn't quite been in the same direction in terms of performance. The could pull a DSM and do the same thing Mitsu did to the latest gen Eclipse when they put it on a sedan platform and took out the boost in favor of trying to grow up with their customers (or so they say).

I don't see the 2ZZ leaving Toyota's line up, but I do see it being passed down. TRD did a lot of work on our Celica race motor and it tapped out at a very unreliable 600 hp. And it had to be fully built inside to take any added hurt we threw at it. Honestly, Toyota really did tap that engine out for the most part and still keep it reliable. They may keep it in the car, but don't expect high power gains. 10-15 hp max from the factory. It would be a better idea to keep the engine in future Scions and Corollas and such to keep those vehicles competitive. Toyota needs to look ahead and $25k should buy you a minimum of 220 hp out of a FWD sports coupe in this day and age. I don't see them putting in a V6. Like I said, they could follow Mitsu's route from 2000, but I doubt they would start putting in 6s.

The whole point of this thread is really speculation. It makes for a good debate and more interesting read. Sometimes this forum needs it. I can only read about rims, tail lights and "When are we gonna get cams?" for so long. ;)

[Blue Batmobile]

I can't wait for either one:).

Bat

[CeliCar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blue Batmobile
[B]I can't wait for either one:).

Bat

[FriedRice]

great posts. good educational reading.

there will always be speculation posts, but none are as thought as this...


the previous ones have been "no 8th gen celica." (no reasoning, no proof no nothing)

or conversely: "3000 hp celica with propellers and scramjet technology.. o yea and 6 wheel drive" (based mostly on unrealistic wants and desires)

bottom line: some of our members are higher up in the toyota knowledge food chain. some are bottom feeders that lick the moss from the rocks. when the more knowledgeable people talk im going to listen.

[S|Lv3rBu||et]

I appriciate the effort guys, but all we really can do is wait and see.

[dennis]

NYC car show is in 6 or 7 days. Not that they would release any new info, but it should be interesting none the less. AND, i could always harass one of the toyota reps till they spill something :evil:

[2002GT_Celica]

Originally posted by GTSnut
Great insight captain.

Thanks.

Sorry, but this post does nothing, this is the same regurgitated info that people have been posting for months. I read through your post, throughout the whole thing, you just speculate based on implications, and no hard evidence whatsoever.

This post is nothing more than a waste of bandwidth. Here's an idea guys: wait a couple months and see what actually does come out.

[coledesign]

why cant they release the caldina in the US that thing is sweet

[yuloose]

Originally posted by coledesign
why cant they release the caldina in the US that thing is sweet

:werd:

i also would like to see a new type-r and nissan micra......but we can keep dreaming cuz we will bever see either (except for the imported ones)

[Bimbleuk]

Yuloose,

I've had a nose round an import and it ain't exactly a pretty car but does have potential.

Biggest prob for me is the weight at 1400kgs (3000lbs!) and as far as I know the 3SGTE AWD version is auto only.

[F35-JSF]

Originally posted by coledesign
why cant they release the caldina in the US that thing is sweet

:werd:

[FriedRice]

Originally posted by Bimbleuk
Yuloose,

I've had a nose round an import and it ain't exactly a pretty car but does have potential.

Biggest prob for me is the weight at 1400kgs (3000lbs!) and as far as I know the 3SGTE AWD version is auto only.

not that hard in swapping a transmission. i've heard auto/manual swaps go for 2000 or less if u are friendly with mechanics

[Blue Batmobile]

Originally posted by CeliCar
Translation:

"Pssst... Bo... get me the specs on these things ASAP so I can get the vinyl overlays ready for launch."

:bling:

Damn Right. I may have to buy the next Celi, just to make the Overlays:D.

Bat

[Bo]

Originally posted by 2002GT_Celica
Thanks.

Sorry, but this post does nothing, this is the same regurgitated info that people have been posting for months. I read through your post, throughout the whole thing, you just speculate based on implications, and no hard evidence whatsoever.

This post is nothing more than a waste of bandwidth. Here's an idea guys: wait a couple months and see what actually does come out.
1) welcome to newcelica.org
2) read the title of the thread. What are you complaining about.
3) it's actually not the same info over again. It's plainly obvious you haven't read any of the prior posts about the subject of an 05.
4) my thoughts are celica speculations based on a lot of facts on other toyota productions. Once again, like the title says, these are my thoughts. You act like this is a surprise. Are members of this board not alowed to think for themselves any more? :rofl:
5) you say that this thread is a waste of bandwidth, yet you posted in it. Twice. And both posts were to complain about the thread and its ideas. Very redundant and hypocritical.
6) Follow me here. The rest of us own New Celicas. So we're gonna want to talk about New Celicas. It's just something you're gonna have to live with once in a while on NEWCELICA.org.

[TwiST]

the styling is a no-no but the engine :thumbup:

[FriedRice]

Originally posted by GTSnut
1) welcome to newcelica.org
2) read the title of the thread. What are you complaining about.
3) it's actually not the same info over again. It's plainly obvious you haven't read any of the prior posts about the subject of an 05.
4) my thoughts are celica speculations based on a lot of facts on other toyota productions. Once again, like the title says, these are my thoughts. You act like this is a surprise. Are members of this board not alowed to think for themselves any more? :rofl:
5) you say that this thread is a waste of bandwidth, yet you posted in it. Twice. And both posts were to complain about the thread and its ideas. Very redundant and hypocritical.
6) Follow me here. The rest of us own New Celicas. So we're gonna want to talk about New Celicas. It's just something you're gonna have to live with once in a while on NEWCELICA.org.

:owned: :gap:

[Grooverider]

Originally posted by 2002GT_Celica
Nothing but a bunch of speculation backed by virtually no hard evidence. This is worse than the countless "Supra concept" posts.
Wow thanks for the insight Honduh owner :chuckles:

[xspwolf]

Originally posted by GTSnut
First, great post.
However, you said that the celica would never use an Avensis chasis, but then continued on to say that the Avensis chassis is indeed a modified version of a Celica Chassis. In essence, they are the same chassis then. Also, the Celica didn't always have an emphasis on great handling, but never the less the tC shows great promise in handling. The Celica and Matrix are both on the same platform the Celica will run circles. So chassis using a tC chassis base is a definite possibility. Toyota makes many decisions to save money, and it wouldn't surprise me if they did this as well.

few things:
- Avensis uses back celica suspension, which is completly completly different thing than chasis. Since Avensis is an big, big sedan, its platform is made to handle heavier cars (so its heavier) and it is longer (so it is heavier). There is simply no reason to use heavier platform - nothing to be gained from it.

As to speculation on 2zzge, since Euro spec Celicas already have 190hp engine, it should not be heard to extend that a bit more. The fact that TRD could not get more than 600hp from the 2zzge means what? 200 hp is nowhere close to 600hp :)

And I said it before - weight is the king of the hill - if next Celica is based of new Avensis platform, it would be heavier to the point that 220 hp engine could not keep up with 7gen GTS... Would it be nicer to get light car with an AWD option that can be boosted and be quick? While with still less than 2800lbs

[RADR1732]

Bo... tried to PM you twice now and your box is full. Been trying to get a hold for a while now.

RIchard

[DopeCelicaGT]

Great the Celica will be replaced (probably) with a faster ugly ass wonna-be sports car. Wonderful.

[rogergts]

We shall see in the next few months what happens, can't wait :D

[FlatSpin187]

Originally posted by GTSnut
Great insight captain.
in 2005 the tundra wil not be change. it will not be change untill the San Antonio plan is completely done so it wont be until 2006 almost 2007.

[555 SOUL]

i'm sorry, all i'm hearing is...blah blah blah. thanks for your thoughts and opinion!