APEXi: powerFC vs S-AFC

[SilverGTS83]

hi guys, i was looking into buying a new gadget for fuel management and stuff like that, tune the car you know... whats the diference in between these two.... to me they look the same, thanx

[cool2miketlu]

You are kidding right?? S-AFC don't really work for our Celica and PowerFC work the best for our Celica. There are major difference in prices too.

[SilverGTS83]

well, kidding, no, i dont rally know, ive had the car for a year, stored for 6 months due to snow in canada... and im just starting to look for performance parts

edit: so why on apexi-usa.com they say not working with obd-2.. isnt the gts an obd-2???

or what about the GREDDY E-MANAGE

[00 scrub]

The Power-FC replaces your ECU while teh SAFC is a piggyback that attempts to work with your ECU (or trick it) to tune with. The Power FC has many more functions than the SAFC(timing, datalogging etc.). The Power-FC does not support OBD-2, but all that means is that you cannot use OBD-2 functions with your car(CEL & codes, emissions stuff).

[SilverGTS83]

thanx a lot to 00 scrub, you make it look a lot easier now, but do i really need to go on a dyno to get a real difference in the tuning.. and what about the e manage..???

[cool2miketlu]

Originally posted by SilverGTS83
well, kidding, no, i dont rally know, ive had the car for a year, stored for 6 months due to snow in canada... and im just starting to look for performance parts

edit: so why on apexi-usa.com they say not working with obd-2.. isnt the gts an obd-2???

or what about the GREDDY E-MANAGE

All 7th gen Celica is OBD-II but PowerFC is straight from Japan so it is not even OBD standard.

[bagodoosh]

SAFC does work. it's just a matter of knowing how to use it.
tune it for HI throttle, set HI to 46% and low to 45%. however your long term fuel trim will still mix into the equation.

[ADF]

You are one of the fist to talk good about the SAFC, do you have one? What was the difference like for you? And would you have opted to save up more for the PFC??

[boostjunkie26]

S-AFC will work, but only when the ecu goes into open loop mode, ignoring the o2 sensor. I believe, reading several posts, that open loop mode starts at ~60%TPS. If that's the case, then you just set your S-AFC to start manipulating MAF sensor readings at this point.

However, the PowerFC gives you the capability to tune even when in closed loop (actually, would you even try to mess with these parameters?), plus the ability to raise the redline, alter valve timing and the onset of lift (not that this would be really beneficial).

[bagodoosh]

Originally posted by ADF
You are one of the fist to talk good about the SAFC, do you have one?:chuckles: no.

if you follow the SAFC threads, this is what you will see.. a lot of people purchased & tuned it (on LO-THROTTLE setting). then there were some discussion about the O2 sensor. 90% of the people concluded it doesn't work. nowadays you just get a regurgitation of the information. i don't think the people that tell you this information fully understand how it happens.

i've read the SAFC user-manual, and i've observed the ECU's behaviour using an OBD2 reader. i don't see why it would not work in open-loop (HI throttle) mode.
Originally posted by boostjunkie26
open loop mode starts at ~60%TPSthe raw TPS# is actualy 46% (for GTS at least). but maximum is 76%, so 46/76 ~ 60% of maximum. that's where that came from.

[coronaman247]

plus the ability to raise the redline, alter valve timing and the onset of lift (not that this would be really beneficial).

Are you really questioning the benefits of these? If so, you need to buy a minivan and just drive that around....

[boostjunkie26]

bagodoosh, that's some interesting info about the TPS. I'm a newbie with the celica tuning and I couldn't imagine an ecu that would "lock out" any altered signals if it didn't know it was there. But a lot of people jumped on my assumptions.

As a former subie tuner, there were a lot of 2.5RS guys that said hte same things about the S-AFC, that it was useless as a tuning mod because the "computer was too smart." This was not the case.

As you stated, it was because people didn't know how to tune with them.

[DVSEzekiel316]

Do you guys know if the Power FC works for the newer celica years...? i.e. 2002-04...?

[Vroom_Vroom]

Originally posted by DVSEzekiel316
Do you guys know if the Power FC works for the newer celica years...? i.e. 2002-04...?
it will only work for the 2000-2002 year celicas, NOT the 2003 or 2004 because those years use the Drive By Wire System. Meaning that there is no throttle cable and it is run basically by the ecu.

[cool2miketlu]

Originally posted by boostjunkie26
As a former subie tuner, there were a lot of 2.5RS guys that said hte same things about the S-AFC, that it was useless as a tuning mod because the "computer was too smart." This was not the case.
As you stated, it was because people didn't know how to tune with them.


It is not totally useless, but why the hell would you buy something that only works in WOT?
There are plenty of other management system out there superior to S-AFC able to use more function than S-AFC why the hell would you buy S-AFC??? E-Manage with all the add-ons is just alittle bit more than S-AFC yet you get benifit of fully tune your setup. If you are going to buy a Piggyback setup stay away from S-AFC.
I am not trying to be a d!ck but making people think S-AFC is a thing that works is stupid when it only works when you are WOT, which does not happen often during daily driving.
Standalone setup is ALWAYS superior to piggyback, just read up more info on this. The only down side PowerFC is that it is not OBD-2 so you would not pass smog test, while the piggyback will.

All this arguement about S-AFC is stupid, buying something that barely works is a waste of $400.

[bagodoosh]

Originally posted by cool2miketlu
why the hell would you buy something that only works in WOT?don't be silly. what about nitrous? dynos are taken at WOT. people run 1/4 mi at WOT. pretty much any form of speed or power comparison is done at WOT. if you connect a scanner to your ECU and watch your TPS, you'd be surprised how often you're driving in open-loop mode.

SAFC retails for $300. it can be purchased from a non believer for 100-150 probably. add some dyno time. you're in mid $200 range. not too bad IMO. :D

[cool2miketlu]

Originally posted by bagodoosh
don't be silly. what about nitrous? dynos are taken at WOT. people run 1/4 mi at WOT. pretty much any form of speed or power comparison is done at WOT. if you connect a scanner to your ECU and watch your TPS, you'd be surprised how often you're driving in open-loop mode.

SAFC retails for $300. it can be purchased from a non believer for 100-150 probably. add some dyno time. you're in mid $200 range. not too bad IMO. :D

How often do you go Nitrous? and how often do you run 1/4 mile? Most people are not running at WOT all that often, occassionally will creep into WOT, but not that often. That setup is built so that it is suppose to do more than adjust WOT, only use it at WOT it is pretty much a light show during daily driving.
$300 for S-AFC which only works at WOT vs $379 retail for E-Manage which can work all the time, which would you get?
Most people who has to ask question about S-AFC is noob tuners, they buy things for their cars hope they can benifit from it all the time not just at WOT. By telling them it works and they buy to find out it does not work when they want it guess what happens.

[bagodoosh]

i'm not going to debate whether emanage is better or safc. i don't know much about emanage. from what i've read it's a piggy back unit that alters MAF signal to the ECU per RPM. hmm.. sounds like SAFC to me.

if you're advocating modding only per % used, everyone may as well stay stock. how often do you take a corner to need those suspension mods? how often do you look at your car to need the aesthetic mods? how often do GTS owners stay at RPMs over 6000? how many GTS owners own an injen CAI which shows marginal gain only at high RPMs?

people live for dyno #s, 1/4mi times, that one minute of a lap in an autoX event, or 10 seconds worth of corners in a 20 minute ride.

and like i said, open-loop happens at about 46% TPS, not necessarily WOT. at this point the O2 feedback is not used. connect a scanner to your car and tell me what % of time you are in open-loop.

i understand you used the SAFC at some point and you're bitter because it did not work as you had hoped. it still does not change the answer, nor do i think it should hinder someone's decision to purchase one by giving them false information.

Q: does SAFC work to tune AF?
A1: yes. it does at HI-throttle setting. you can essentialy change the AF ratio.
A2: it even works to reduce the intake error at LO-throttle setting. however you're stuck with the ECU's choice for A/F ratio (which will be enforced by the O2 feedback)

oh well. i rest my case.

[Vroom_Vroom]

whats open loop and closed loop? sorry for the noob question. hehe

[boostjunkie26]

Originally posted by cool2miketlu
It is not totally useless, but why the hell would you buy something that only works in WOT?

All this arguement about S-AFC is stupid, buying something that barely works is a waste of $400.

See above comments and tell me whether I ever said that one was better than the other. I agree that a full standalone has more capability than a S-AFC (read my previous posts again). HOWEVER, you're talkin about two different price ranges for tuning.

Just like suspensions, some people can go with springs, coilovers, springs and shocks, and just shocks. What makes one different from another . . . tunability. Does that mean that it's worthless to buy a spring and shock package when compared to a full coilover system?

NO!

Different strokes for different folks. My argument in saying that the S-AFC is a competent tuning device is not the problem, it's your "blinders on" statements condemming it that are the problem.

Vroom_Vroom, closed loop is when the ecu takes readings from both the MAF sensor and the o2 sensor and constantly changes fuel trims for better emissions and fuel economy. When power is needed (dependent on throttle position and load) the ecu goes into open loop mode, which has set fuel trims that won't be adjusted because the ecu ignores o2 sensor inputs.

Which brings up another point for cool2miketlu. If the Greddy Emanage alters stock ecu outputs/inputs (I'm not familiar with this system), then if you're changing the closed loop operation, the ecu will be CONTINUALLY CHANGING your settings anyway so what's the point in changing settings for fuel trim in closed loop operation?!?!?!

[cool2miketlu]

If E-Manage works like what I think it does, it intercepts signals from engine and send in stock signals to ECU. Working off stock signal from ECU and adjusting alittle before sending it back out to the engine. It keeps engine thinking that it is at a normal working order where it does not need adjustments, while doing all the adjustments that engine requires. Just that when you tune this E-Manage (in a dyno facility) you gotta reset the ECU after each adjustment you made, just to be sure you got it dialed in right at the reset stock ECU numbers and not ECU adjusted numbers.
For almost the same price you can get a superior piggyback system that is proven to work and not just WOT, why would anyone even consider the S-AFC other than the bling bling factor?

[boostjunkie26]

However, does the Emanage intercept the incoming ecu signals from the o2 sensor? I highly doubt that, considering that improper manipulation of the o2 sensor signals at closed loop operation could potentially be disasterous (read: super lean), since the o2 sensor is so inaccurate.

And if that's the case, then the ecu would keep altering the fuel trims to compensate, after seeing different readings from the o2 sensor . . . which would change the normal operating parameters of the Emanage tuning . . . and the net result . . .

Uselessness of tuning at closed loop operation.

I'm hazarding a guess to say that you can only tune Emanage at WOT.

Yes, there are other add-on features to that piggyback, but once you start adding them up, you might as well go with a PowerFC, so in essence, both the Emanage and S-AFC fall within the same scope of tuning options.

[00silverGTS6spd]

I use the PFC and I love it.

PFC > S-afc

that is all, carry on.

[boostjunkie26]

Originally posted by 00silverGTS6spd
I use the PFC and I love it.

PFC > S-afc

that is all, carry on.

No arguments there. Just wish my wallet agreed with that statement.

[bagodoosh]

Originally posted by boostjunkie26
However, does the Emanage intercept the incoming ecu signals from the o2 sensor?i called greddy tech support & the guy told me emanage is capable of creating its own O2 signal to fool the ECU. however i'm reading the usermanual (http://www.greddy.com/prodimages/emanman.pdf) and i see ZERO references to this capability nor instructions for tapping into the O2 signal. in fact the wire harness doesn't even have an O2 lead.
Originally posted by cool2miketlu
why would anyone even consider the S-AFC other than the bling bling factor?
since you keep repeating himself without providing any more info, i'm lead to believe you don't know what you're talking about, nor are you capable of understanding the argument.

let's compare retail pricing. for emanage you will need the E01 system or a PC to program it.

Apexi SAFC v1: $300
emanage : $379 basic unit + $139 pc interface = $518 (let's assume you have a PC)
...or: $379 + $498 e01 programmer = $877

..for doing the same thing. nice!
>EDIT< i'm comparing to SAFC v1 because emanage's user manual states it has 5 fuel points like SAFC v1. SAFC v2 has 12, which is also more expensive.

mike, until you can prove emanage can simulate/manipulate O2 signal, consider yourself :owned: :chuckles:

[boostjunkie26]

Originally posted by bagodoosh
i called greddy tech support & the guy told me emanage is capable of creating its own O2 signal to fool the ECU. however i'm reading the usermanual (http://www.greddy.com/prodimages/emanman.pdf) and i see ZERO references to this capability nor instructions for tapping into the O2 signal. in fact the wire harness doesn't even have an O2 lead.


At least cool2miketlu and the Greddy tech support guy are on the same page! LOL!

bagodoosh, don't forget to mention that you can get the S-AFC v1's used for around $100!

[pat_tse]

so who's got the s-afc on board, to share some light?

[hondafighterGTS]

i think its time for a superafc..... as a matter of fact i have seen dynos one the celica with the superafc.... they are obviously wot and peak power rose about 1 hp.... however peak increase in the powerband in lift rose about 4 or 5 and was consistent. between 6000-8000. i came on the board ans argued this some time ago because i had seen dynos but people were lke nahnah nah it doesnt work and shut me off. but it does work. at wot on open loop. and thats when it counts....who cares about going fast in traffic.... u dont race at half throttle. ALL go fast mods work best at wot.