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BillWS6Formula
03-27-2002, 05:47 AM
I know the discussion on just what is "horsepower and torque" comes up from time to time. So here's pretty short and sweet little article that might help put it into perspective for some. It's from an article by Jim Kerr on theCanadian Driver (http://http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/020327.htm) website.

Horsepower and Torque Explained
by Jim Kerr

I get asked a thousand times a year - how can I get more power from my car/truck/SUV/motorhome - you name it! What many people really want is better acceleration, or improved fuel economy, or to be able to pull a bigger load. Before putting a pile of money into the engine, we should take a look at what power really is, and how it moves our vehicles.

Look at almost any automobile review and you will find horsepower and torque listed in the specs. For example, my "Quickmobile" has 200 horsepower at 9000 rpm and 57 ft lbs. torque at 2000 rpm. Is this vehicle really quick, or do numbers sometimes play tricks on us? Well, it has 200 horsepower. What does that mean?

Horsepower is related to torque, and torque is turning force. Place a lever on the engine's crankshaft and measure the twisting force produced, and you have torque. Note that time is not a factor - torque can be constant over time. Horsepower, on the other hand, is the rate at which the torque is produced.

Horsepower is a measurement of the engine's ability to do work. One horsepower can lift 33,000 pounds up one foot in one minute. Horsepower is measured over time. The more horsepower a vehicle has, the more mass it can move in the same amount of time, or it can move a fairly constant mass (the weight of the car) in less time. In simple terms, to get a vehicle accelerating quicker, we need to produce torque faster.

There are many different ways of measuring the power of an engine. Brake horsepower is a common term and refers to the power measured at the crankshaft using a "prony" brake. A prony brake was a simple lever that was connected to the crankshaft with a brake. As the brake was applied, the lever would deflect and power was indicated. Nowadays, computers and strain gauges are used to measure the power.

Rear wheel horsepower is just what it implies - horsepower applied by the rear wheels. A chassis dynamometer is used to measure the power transferred by the drive wheels onto the dynamometer's rollers. Brake horsepower is much lower than the horsepower specs provided by the manufacturers, because of all the power used by the transmission, final drive, and accessories.

Gross horsepower is the power measured at the crankshaft without any engine accessories. This includes removing the air cleaner and ductwork, exhaust system, water pump drive, and any other devices driven by the engine. Prior to 1973, horsepower specifications were listed by the manufacturers as gross horsepower. After 1972, manufacturers provided net horsepower specifications.

Net horsepower is also measured at the crankshaft before it goes into the transmission, but this time the engine is operated as it is installed in the vehicle, complete with accessories and ductwork.

Occasionally, usually when reading overseas vehicle information, I find reference to taxable horsepower. Taxable horsepower is a simple mathematics calculation used to determine the taxes to be paid on the vehicle. It has very little to do with actual horsepower because it doesn't factor in key elements like compression ratios, cylinder head design, and camshaft specifications. To calculate taxable horsepower multiply the cylinder bore x cylinder bore x number of cylinders x 0.4, and don't forget to pay the tax!

Many engineering documents and European manufacturers list engine power in Kilowatts. We more commonly use kilowatts to measure electrical power, but it is easy to convert from kilowatts to horsepower. One kilowatt is equal to 1.341 horsepower. While you are converting, you can also change torque measured in Newton metres (Nm) to ft lbs. by multiplying the Nm by 0.737561.

There are other measurements of horsepower. It can be converted to British thermal units (BTU) or it can be listed in PS. PS is short for Pferdestarke, the term for metric horsepower. Don't ask - I haven't seen it used anywhere either, but if you want to dazzle your friends, one horsepower is equal to 1.0139 PS.

So back to my Quickmobile. It really isn't very quick. With only 57 ft lbs. of torque, there isn't a lot of twist to turn the wheels. Sure, it has 200 hp, but it comes at a high 9000 rpm so it isn't very useful for normal driving or accelerating from a stop.

To achieve good performance, operate the engine at its peak torque, and the lower the rpm this occurs, the stronger it will pull from a stop. I see too many "hot-rodded" engines where all they go after is maximum horsepower at high rpm. If you have a light vehicle, steep axle gearing, and are willing to constantly rev the engine high, then high horsepower numbers will make you go fast. Great for racing.

For most of use however, it is better to have an engine with higher torque ratings and the lower or broader the rpm range it achieves it the better. Torque is what gets your vehicle moving. For everyday driving, I would pick a vehicle with high torque ratings at low rpm over a high horsepower, high rpm one any time.

Want the best of both? Then consider vehicle with a supercharged or turbocharged engine. By packing more air into the engine, torque is increased dramatically, but the engine can still be built for high rpm operation. Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too. Unfortunately, cake costs money, and so do superchargers and turbo's. There is always a catch.



Of course there's the old drag racing version too..."torque=ET and hp=trapspeed" if the above article is too long *L*.

scapamouche
03-27-2002, 06:35 AM
And torque *tends* to come from displacement. There's no replacement for displacement....

cam_n_scott
03-27-2002, 06:47 AM
Sure Bill, you and your torque machine Formula.... why dont you just rub it in our face? ;) j/k

BillWS6Formula
03-27-2002, 06:59 AM
LOL...didin't mean it that way! :) Was just trying to show that essentially torque and hp are the same thing - hp is just just an expression of torque over time, and that torque is what gets you moving and is most noticeble in day to day driving.

He did say turbo's/SC's are a good "replacement for displacement" though!

djm221
03-27-2002, 07:50 AM
I like my low torque high revving/high horsepower engine just fine.
It's funny how they always say gobs of torque is best for everday driving, yet, with how most people drive, 20lb-ft would be enough. I always out accelerate people from a light without trying. If people don't use it, what's the point?

Vroom_Vroom
03-27-2002, 08:59 AM
i wish i had torque most of the time...usually i find myself driving my grandpas car which is a 1988 Toyota celica ST automatic i believe it has 106hp and i have no idea how much torque it has...its useless starting from stoplights and its a b*tch to get it to get going...i just hope the new celica isnt like this :)

daSchtick
03-27-2002, 11:24 AM
Actually, I have found this article which I thought did an excellent job also:

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

djm221
03-27-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by daSchtick
Actually, I have found this article which I thought did an excellent job also:

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

That was a good, long article, but I think I disagree with one thing. He said, go out in your car, punch it at different RPMs, it will feel fastest at the torque peak. Well, the Celica is pretty flat, but if I punch it at 3,000RPM vs. 5,500RPM, it feels faster at 5,500RPM, I think. I guess I will go try it when I leave work.

SlasherX
03-27-2002, 01:26 PM
torques fun once you have it... and its extremely hard to go back to not having it *never lets it go*

Raymund
03-27-2002, 02:21 PM
torque is only the half of it and is not what makes the car go fast. ulimately, its the hp/weight ratio.

one cannot determine how fast a car is by torque and weight alone. its just not mathematicaly posible:D

SlasherX
03-27-2002, 02:58 PM
screw math..numbers dont mean anything! havent you read racing stories lately?

t2000gts
03-27-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Raymund
torque is only the half of it and is not what makes the car go fast. ulimately, its the hp/weight ratio.

one cannot determine how fast a car is by torque and weight alone. its just not mathematicaly posible:D

all you need is the torque curve and the weight seeing as how horsepower is an expression of torque :D

also, let's not leave out the importance of rpm/gearing.

mamba
03-28-2002, 03:39 AM
power to weight = acceleration
torque is a poor indicator of performance.
Given the power to weight ratio of a car you can tell 0-60, standing quater and terminal speed quite accurately.

Torque is over rated.
This article says it all.

http://www.autospeed.com/A_1073/page1.html

more if you are really keen

http://www.autospeed.com/A_0744/P_1/article.html
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0755/page1.html

daSchtick
03-28-2002, 04:55 AM
Torque is indeed a critical component, but without horsepower (the work done by torque), it does not do much. For instance, diesel engines are known for developing large amounts of torque. They are used in big trucks because of this trait, as it is neccesary for moving heavy loads. If diesel engines have so much torque, than why aren't they popular in cars. That is because they lack horsepower. The reason being, that all of the torque is developed at such a low RPM (a key factor in HP), that gearing cannot sufficiently compensate for this, without critically reducing torque output.

So to summarize, what is really needed is a long flat torque band that will run well into the high RPM ranges, thus allowing great horsepower. This formula is what makes cars like the M3 tick.

SlasherX
03-28-2002, 11:42 AM
torque is your foundation and engines potential. the more you have the more hp you can make potentially n/a. torque is also directly related to engine size.

M3's have one of the sweetest engines in the world, no doubt...

a flat torque curve and linear powerband is the nicest thing you can have under the hood.

t2000gts
03-28-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by mamba
power to weight = acceleration
torque is a poor indicator of performance.
Given the power to weight ratio of a car you can tell 0-60, standing quater and terminal speed quite accurately.

Torque is over rated.
This article says it all.

http://www.autospeed.com/A_1073/page1.html

more if you are really keen

http://www.autospeed.com/A_0744/P_1/article.html
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0755/page1.html

best way to do those types of 'calculations' is in your own head. get a feel for how different curb weights respond to different power levels, then how most popular gearing formats affect that.

then when you look in a mag and see a, say 2700-2800lb curb weight for a new car with a 6-speed and 180hp, 130ft-lb of torque, you can tell that car would be running somewhere mid-high 15s, and low 15s with prep and work and a broken in engine. that horsepower will indicate to you a trap speed of around 93-94mph at sea level. the only other 'major' factor you should look into is drivetrain loss.

you can do the exact same thing with better results in calculations if you take into account the gearing/power at the wheels.

Raymund
03-28-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by t2000gts


all you need is the torque curve and the weight seeing as how horsepower is an expression of torque :D

also, let's not leave out the importance of rpm/gearing.

wow thats a hole lot of info just to get the numbers. lets review that again.. To get a cars rate of acceleration you would need the torque curve, torque curve to rpm relation graph, curbweight and translation of torque to horsepower.:D

while all you need is hp to weight ratio to guess accurately.

NSX_GTR_LM
03-28-2002, 12:19 PM
THERE IS A REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT

its called: rotary:gap: :fawk:

SlasherX
03-28-2002, 04:30 PM
not for flat strong torque curves it isnt.

2000 XYR
03-28-2002, 06:04 PM
SlasherX said:
a flat torque curve and linear powerband is the nicest thing you can have under the hood. Isn't is though. ;) How's this for pretty:

http://2000xyr.freeyellow.com/L/torque%20curve.jpg

There's something magical about a 5.4L V8 plus a 8psi supercharger.

I'd have to agree with the "no replacement for displacement" comments. The Celica GT-S puts out 100HP/liter at 2425 lbs. I've got 70HP/liter and twice the weight (literally). :D

SlasherX
03-28-2002, 07:49 PM
damn that lightning motor is sweet...good choice on fords side for choosing to drop it into the GT-40 (2800lbs on a full tank of gas) ;)

2002GT_Celica
03-28-2002, 09:04 PM
Great post Bill, thanks a lot. That clears up a lot of questions I had.

oo_snoopy
03-28-2002, 09:51 PM
no replacement for displacement

Yes there is, Its called a really big Turbo with lots of boost!.

SlasherX
03-28-2002, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by oo_snoopy


Yes there is, Its called a really big Turbo with lots of boost!.

put that same turbo on ther larger motor..what happens?

makes more power.

class dismissed.

Raymund
03-28-2002, 11:59 PM
Flash News!!!! a possible replacement to displacement...

RANDOM FACTS:

-Engines are currently limited to 3 litre, normally aspirated with 10 cylinders. These engines produce approximately 800 - 850 hp
-In an F1 engine revving at 18,000 rpm, the piston will travel up and down 300 times a second.
-Maximum piston acceleration is approximately 7,000 g (humans pass out at 7-8 g) which puts a load of over 3 tons on each connecting rod.
-The piston only moves around 50 mm but will accelerate from 0 - 100 km/h and back to 0 again in around 0.0025 seconds.
-If a connecting rod let go of its piston at maximum engine speed, the piston would have enough energy to travel vertically over 100 metres.
-If a water hose were to blow off, the complete cooling system would empty in just over a second.

SlasherX
03-29-2002, 12:02 AM
riiiiiiiight..well next tiem you see a car being sold for street use with an F-1 engine in it, i suggest ya buy it..until then, i prefer reality. :)

cool facts though...can't imagine those motors being reliable worth a **** though.

Raymund
03-29-2002, 12:26 AM
no doubt there beyond reach of many people. i though this topic was about horsepower and torque nothing else.

try racing any engine at WOT for 2hrs and see if its reliability is worth any ****.

SlasherX
03-29-2002, 12:06 PM
lol..yeah..

oo_snoopy
03-29-2002, 12:08 PM
put that same turbo on ther larger motor..what happens?

makes more power.

class dismissed.


So why don't we see many turboed v10 and v8. Because they won't run long with a turbo.

class dismissed.

Pulsar
03-29-2002, 01:28 PM
Because they make enough power as it is. People who need turbos for their V8s and V10s generally are the people that want to get sub 10 sec cars.....

daSchtick
03-29-2002, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by SlasherX
torques fun once you have it... and its extremely hard to go back to not having it *never lets it go*

Uh, but you have a V6....:chuckles:

SlasherX
03-30-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by daSchtick


Uh, but you have a V6....:chuckles:

ever see its torque curve? :)

it doesnt have much one...its a flat line at 220+ ft lbs (after my mods im hoping closer to 240, but not sure)

i started the car from a stop teh other day in 3rd gear on 3.27 rear gear without noticing it in the pedal or engien response. i looked down at my rpm range and wondered why it was so low for the speed when i then realized. the engien wasnt strugglign or anything, did it with ease.

thats torque.

SlasherX
03-30-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by oo_snoopy


So why don't we see many turboed v10 and v8. Because they won't run long with a turbo.

class dismissed.

Ignorance 101?

do you honestly believe that eh size of the engien has ANY effect on its durability under boost?

LOL..not even worth replying to..nevermind.

oo_snoopy
03-31-2002, 11:28 AM
no really tell me why then we don't see many turbo'd V8 and V10s

SlasherX
03-31-2002, 11:59 AM
because they put out enough power as it is n/a. has nothign to do with reliability or durability of th emotor at all. the reason you see so many turbos and valvetrain trickery on smaller motors is CUZ THEY NEED IT TO PERFORM ADEQUATELY.

some people like being the underdog and building a slow car into something quick. some people just like buying the quicker car to begin with and calling it a day while the others work to just keep up.

2000 XYR
03-31-2002, 04:43 PM
. . . and some people like to buy a blown V8 with a factory warranty and calling it a day.

SlasherX -- you gonna get a 2003 Cobra? Sounds like you'd really like one. :)

SlasherX
03-31-2002, 05:48 PM
haha, i wish! :)

i am however getting a 99 cobra aroudn november. the 03 will knock down the used values and make a lot of n/a guys rush to it, so thatll leave me with a good market to choose from. coming form my v6, 320hp in the cobra with IRS will be lovely.

plan to keep the Cobra forever, or close to it..starting with really small mods to work teh kinks out of the IRS and get the car to handle well through Griggs..then maybe someday throw on a procharger... not sure.. :)

i figure mid to low 13's stock will be more than enough for my daily driver while im in school. but im counting down each day :)