Suspension Question????

[FX2000GTS]

What would be a better suspension upgrade for autocross, the Hotchkis Sway Bar Set (front and rear) or to get a front strut bar(RMM or Tanabe) and the TRD rear strut bar????

Which will be the better improvement as I only have the TRD lowering springs only as a suspension setup...

Please advice me.

FX2000 GTS six speed
(not stock)

[autxr]

The sway bars will have a much larger impact on the handling (notice I say impact not benefit).

You are here asking the serious racers about modifications. Since we are serious, we also have serious budget constraints. 9 times out of 10 we will tell you $100 spent on driver improvement will yield more than $100 spend on chassis improvement.

You need to be able to tell us what the car isn't doing so we can tell you what to fix. If you can't articulate it, then more seat time is in order.

If you come in and tell us the car pushes in high speed turns and low speed turns, once we decide that your tire pressures are correct and you are driving properly (not overdriving the tires) then we might suggest a sway bar in i order (rear).

Nothing should be bolted onto the car just because someone sells the part, every part should be chosen to address some handling deficiency.

My feeling is some Koni shocks to go with those TRD springs would do more for the handling than a strut brace or a sway bar.

The sway bars will make a much larger difference in the handling than the strut braces.

BUT, what if you don't like the new handling? Are you good enough to change your driving style so it is faster (making the most of what you put on), or will it just slow you down? I know a driver that has gone through 8 sway bars on his MR2, everyone of them is a custom deal. That is what it takes to get the handling up to the limit. Not just a quick trip to your nearest internet retailer.

Of course he spent a lot of money making himself good enough to feel the difference between those 8 bars (shocks revalved 3 or 4 times now). Developing a new car to the limit takes time and money and no one part is the answer for everyone.

Rant off.

Get the sway bars or take a driving school.

Scott

[pitcrew]

I agree with Scott, driver improvement will be a far bigger bang for the buck. The Celi suspension is pretty decent as is with a good alignment, especially with your lowering springs. Next mechanical upgrade would be shocks. Time and again I see an excellent driver jump in some novice's showroom stocker on street tires and post better times than a hack driver with multi $K of mods. AX is 90% driver skill.

[erok]

Yeah, Scott hit it on the head. I've spent $5000 on performance mods for my car and even with all that I was only averaging 2-3 seconds ahead of the typical novice times. After the $50 autox school I took a few weeks ago I was only 2-3 seconds behind my highly experienced instructors in their ZO6 Corvette.

Has the performance potential of my car improved with mods compared to stock? Certainly, and it's more fun to drive too. But I wouldn't have a prayer of being competative without the autox class. Having spent $5k on mods, I appreciate your desire to mod your car to make it better and learn how it works. Don't be discouraged from doing what you want with the car! But keep in mind autox is at least 95% technique, skill and talent. The fastest STS guy in my region drives a 1991 Ford Escort. He regularly trounces Celicas, Type Rs and WRXs, which have similar mods and you'd think would be much faster, but they're not. It's all skill, which you'll ONLY get from a class and seat time.

As far as the mods go, the sway bars will have a more obvious effect on the car's behaviour at its limit. Grip will probably be very slightly improved. You'll be more comfortable too because the car won't roll as much. The rear strut bar made no noticeable difference in my car other than to limit it's storage space. Installing the front sway bar is a pain in the ass and will cost you a lot if you don't do it yourself. The front strut tower bar and Cusco front controll arm brace on my car made a nice but subtle improvement in steering feel and precision. And they're about as cheap and easy as mods get to buy and install. I don't know; if I was you, I'd get them all! :D

Edit: AND take a class!

[FX2000GTS]

Thank you for your replies....I have taken classes in my Celica and have raced in the stock class previously and have beaten all Type R's except one (better driver than me). I consider myself a good driver but with a lot of learning still left to do and i am open for improvement on every aspect.

The thing is that my car understeers quite a bit....I dont know if it is that i am being too agressive with the acceleration or if maybe some suspension work might help.

The thing is that i am planning on racing the next autocross like in 2 months and want to be ready with a nice balanced car all around. I was also considering on buying the TRD LSD but it is really expensive for my budget.

Right now my mods are just CAI, TRD exhaust, short shifter, shift light, TRD lowering springs and Kumho 712 tires.

I just want the car to get a little less understeer (i actually like a little understeer) and better overall acceleration out of the curve without changing my street tires which I think are pretty good for my daily driving and autocross.

I am open to your advices on every aspect of balancing the car and my driving style.

My driving style is basically heel and toe every curve with proper downshift to equilibrate RPM with speed and acceleration through every gear up to 8,200 rpm (shift lite corrected). Agressive into the curve but easy on the power throughout the curve and agressive out of the curve. Taking always the right line in the track which is not always the fastest but the best for my car and my style.

Any advice on my driving style would be good, please critique me in every way because I want to become a better driver.

Thanks for everything
FX2000 GTS six speed
(not stock)

[FX2000GTS]

I have a budget of about $500.00 to spend on improving the car. What would be the best thing to get suspension wise with my budget?

FX2000 GTS six speed
(not stock)

[erok]

You didn't mention tire pressures or alignment, which have as much of an effect as changing sway bars. What are your settings? I think you can get some Koni or TRD adjustable shocks for ~ $500. That would probably be your best mod. And you won't bottom out as much.

Also, how fast are the courses you're running? I almost never need to shift. Most of the time, downshifting takes longer than for the engine to rev back up. Plus it's easy to upset the car while shifting. Most courses can be run in 2nd all the way through. You don't mention anything about braking when talking about your driving. Usually for me it's like this: WOT between turns, max braking trailing off to little throttle but max cornering around the apex, then gently adding throttle up to WOT as I head into the next section. It is very important not to get on the gas too early while exiting a turn in the Celica because it frequently leads to spinning the inside wheel and bad understeer.

Good luck.

[FX2000GTS]

This autocross courses do not follow SCCA regulations...they require really high speeds as much as 90 mph in the straightaways. I live in Puerto Rico so it is pretty different here...these courses are really fun but also very dangerous for rookie drivers as ive seen integras hit the concrete wall a couple of times.

Anyways my tire pressures are at times 40 lbs. on the fronts and like 27 on the back...this pressure is taken on cold tires as they will increase depending on track conditions like 4 or 5 pounds more. Alignment is stock but if you have any settings that would be perfect.

I sometimes shift through 4 gears and almost never hit first gear. There are sweeping corners, fast corners, and slow corners i pretty much say the track favors the quick and agile cars like celicas, type r's and s2000.

In the last race (which i didnt race) an s2000 won the overall with the lowest time of the day but of course the driver is the champion on circuit racing in latin america. His s2000 was basically stock with just intake, headers and some pretty good street tires. He beat a corvette Z06, porsche twin turbo, Supra twin turbo and M3's. Type R's had a good run and no Celicas were present but in the last race my Celi finished second to a Type R but managed to beat 2 of them also so i felt pretty good.

FX2000 GTS
(six speed)

[erok]

Yikes, 90 mph with concrete walls to hit sounds er, interesting. At that speed, you can definitely take advantage of an aggressive alignment. I've got my car set to -2

[scapamouche]

With that kind of speed, you DON'T want to do only a rear swaybar. Do both or none.

AS for the understeer, Erok, you've got it backwards. Lower the rear pressure to reduce understeer. Or raise the front pressure to do the same.

[autxr]

Yeah, what the other guys said. What you describe more like time trialing or hill climbs in the US, not so much autocross.

I would only do both sway bars, you don't need the tail to be too loose! The sway bars would certainly make more difference than the braces, shocks would help a lot too. After a year and a half of autocross my stock shocks were worn out, they were doing very little towards the end.

For the money, I would get shocks and a good alignment. Use the Toyota bolts (see the other active threads for a reference) and dial in 2 degrees negative camber up front (this will help with the understeer and give better tire wear), and probably around -1.5 degrees in back (plus or minus a little).

Scott

[FX2000GTS]

Thanks for everything you guys...I think I will get both sway bars first and then get the shocks later with the alignment that you guys proposed.

What would be my tire wear with these alignments with my Khumo Ecsta Supra 712ZR tires? Will they last long or will they wear fast?

FX2000 GTS
(not stock)

[FX2000GTS]

Also another question....would racing the car and beign on the power band (6000 - 8200 rpm) for almost 4 laps averaging 1 minute per lap would hurt the engine of the car? Or would the engine hold up?

I was wondering this because I know I will put normal wear on the engine but was thinking if this was damaging the engine in any way....although I know that this particular engine was made for this....

FX2000 GTS
(not stock)

[scapamouche]

If it can't last if you use the power band, TAKE IT BACK. It's designed for that.

Just be careful! I managed to blow up my engine last night, with a stupid shift. It happens really quickly, and I don't even know how I managed to find the wrong gear.

[erok]

Yeah, the car should hold up very well. Remember, it's a Toyota! I've been beating the hell out of Toyotas since I got a learners permit 15 years ago and have never had any of the basics (engine, trans, brakes) fail due to extreme driving alone. I did one track event in my 2000 GTS where the engine was running above 6000 rpms for the good part of 20 minutes at a time with track temperatures well over 100

[FX2000GTS]

Thanks guys....Now I feel good and pumped up about my Celi.

FX2000 GTS
(not stock)

[00 scrub]

geez this was a really educational thread. I have one question about the alignment that erok posted, you said that the alignment you had ( -2

[CloNeGTS]

Both the camber and toe would wear your tires more rapidly than say if you had -1

[erok]

00 scrub: check out www.howstuffworks.com or www.tirerack.com for information on how alignment works.

If you've never had your car aligned it may need it. My new car was outside Toyota's specification when I got it. The MOST important thing is to make sure that the settings are equal on both sides of the car. For you I'd recommend -1

[CloNeGTS]

Just FYI....I kept my stock tires right at 36 psi all the way around (the recommended pressure) and I only got 24k out of em. The middles ran out. I dunno if this was because of all highway miles and a slightly high pressure or what, but I'd drop the pressure to 32-34 and see how they wear if you are concerned about max treadlife for driving outside of autox.