Anyone wanna help me write a letter to Toyota regarding their sad state of affairs?

[Lomeinhu]

Ok, here's the thing: I saw the auto show and was very disappointed. No bright future for Toyota. Their best bets were the Celica, the Matrix, and the IS. But they've already lost the spotlight with the Celica and the IS. 2002 Celica is coming in last in all the tests done by magazines (magazine numbers or not, it's what a majority of potential buyers out there judge by.) IS is criticized for having the least power, small rear leg room, etc. SC430 got attention, but how many people can afford it? So you have this scenario:

1. Matrix, Civic Si, Focus, or Protege? Most likely Focus, then Civic, then Protege. Matrix is last. Count on it.

2. Celica, RSX, WRX, Tiburon, or Eclipse? Eclipse, RSX, then WRX. Maybe the Tiburon is a Hyundai, but the 2002 Celica is being trounced in the numbers, so Celica, again, comes last in preference. Even if the Celica remains popular, the GT is what everyone buys and therefore, categorized as "looks good, not fast enough". It's gonna go the route of the last Eclipse (remember it had the GSX and GST? But still it was a "chick car").

3. IS, BMW 3, Audi A4, or MB C? C'mon, of course you'd pick the Audi A4 or the Bimmer first. MB seems too luxurious, but IS is still near the bottom in terms of power and image. This is the same for practically all the other cars by Lexus, with RX300 being the possible exception.

4. Camry, Altima, Passat, or Accord? Accord already passed the Camry last year in sales. Passat is consistently the best sedan rated by Consumer Reports (bad source to use, but used by many nonetheless). Altima is too nice to pass OVER for the Camry. Toyota can only sell to loyal buyers, not new potential buyers.

There are many more examples. One of the reasons that I stood by Toyota WAS the fact that they're reliable. But with new technology and all, the safety factors are generally the same across the board unless you wanna go the BMW, MB, or Volve route, which is a lot more expensive. For TOyota to compete in the mid-price segment, it's gonna have to put more effort into its lineup.

Anyways, any suggestions, comments, or opinions you guys want in the letter to Toyota? I'm gonna try to find email of the headquarters or something. Thanks!

[XYRCNCP]

One thing I notice though in your post is that those points are YOUR opinion, the market may react differently. Keep in mind that everyone and their mother has a civic....but I see your point. IMO toyota is eventually gonna be just another brand unless they get the balls to make real cars with enough power to compete with stuff out there.

You know that as soon as the WRX STi and the EVO VII hit the market, Subaru and Mitsu's number will skyrocket.....so Toyota needs to get off their conservative a$$ and really look at what's out there....and yeah, fire the idiot who runs TRD.

[Lomeinhu]

Good point. Yes, I may have let my opinions get the best of me. But as objective as I try to be, I just can't get passionate about the lineup. And believe me, being the loyal customer that my family have been (3 Toyota's in a row so far), I'd think that Toyota needs to make sure they don't lose customers like me to other brands.

Put it this way: if I weren't so loyal, I wouldn't be so concerned, right?

[XYRCNCP]

true, true....I am also a loyal toyota owner:
1991 Toyota Corolla SR5
1995 Toyota Camry LE
2000 Toyota Avalon XLS
2000 Toyota Celica GTS

And I still own them all.....the 91 Corolla may end up being a project car....it has the 4-AFE engine, I would be looking into swaping it with a 4-AGE or another J-spec 'yota engine.

If it continues, Toyota WILL lose customers to the competition, hell they may even lose me, but not to Honda, never to Honda. hehe

[Lomeinhu]

werd...no Honda for me, either. Some Hondas are nice, don't get me wrong, but I just can't do it...Wait, I'd make an exception for the S2000

[SlasherX]

isnt toyota releasing the next supra pretty soon?

[Lomeinhu]

Doubt it. Besides, Toyota can't count on one-hit wonders. WHo buys a Camry with any enthusiasm?

[FriedRice]

"WHo buys a Camry with any enthusiasm?"

my dad. haha.... toyota has always been like the top choice in the family.... we have a '00 avalon and a '01 celica.... and a '90 MPV. toyota has always been known for its build quality, but my celica build quality sucks. its like a few months old, the speaker lost a screw, chasis flexing sounds, moonroof rattle, and more minor things. i think toyota's relaxing its standards and that's not a good thing. if the price goes up a little, so be it. i just want dependable cars..... lexus build quality is very very good.... but toyota seems to be kinda leaning away from it, based on what i've seen with the toyotas of friends and family.....

and toyota is focusing on SUV's now... who knows how long this craze is going to last? they mite be picking up on the tail end of the "movement" and if so, they are screwed.

toyota needs to have more power. nissan focused on hp... with their altima, se-r, etc..... if toyota did that, their sales would only go up......

as for toyota's conservatism: i think after they made the celica... they lost all their originality.....

dont get me wrong, i still love toyota, but when it becomes impractical, im leaving

sorry..... long post :gap:

[Lomeinhu]

Friedrice,

You're right, some people ARE happy to buy the Camry, but I highly doubt it's because the Camry (for a lack of a better term) "stirs the soul" in any way close to the Maxima or the Altima could. The best thing about the Maxima and the Altima is that they make you feel like you can depend on them for whatever Camry and the Accord can do, but when the childseat is empty you can run still with the best of them. Herein lies the problem: forget about the aftermarket. Look at the way Toyota is running the business. They keep saying that they want younger buyers, but even the new Camry won't get any of us excited. No matter what Toyota says, it's having a very hard time letting go of the upper age segment.

Say you got a Camry. You won't sit inside the car and tell yourself, "This is a niiiiiiice car," but probably more in lines of, "This is a DEPENDABLE car."

The Celica really gave me hope that Toyota was bringing passion back into the brand. After all, that's what they kept emphasizing about the Celica and the MR2 when they first came out. But now you don't see any new commercials, and even the 2002 brochures are still using the pictures from the 2000 brochures. That's pretty sad.

Toyota has a common practice: once they see an opportunity, they don't take it right away. They sit back and watch the others break the mold. Once the trend is underway, they only DIP their fingers in and hope that the cash come rolling in. This was the case with the Supra. They let the Z and the RX7 do their thing first, then Toyota dropped in the Supra MK IV. Great car, but Toyota didn't do anything new or different from the manufacturers in terms of promoting the car. Toyota COPIES other companies. They take whatever is good from the others, filter them through a bunch of corporate heads, and then release something that merely SATISFIES everyone. No identity, no love. They saw a public craving for high powered cars with twin turbos, so they go the TT route; they saw the minivan boom, so they had 2 vans, the Sienna and the Previa--now the Previa's gone; they see the SUV (as mentioned above) trend, and now they have SEVEN (8 including the upcoming GX470 from Lexus). I'm betting that a few SUVs will be retired soon. Toyota can't keep doing this. Having too many vehicles will only weaken the lineup. We won't need 3 different Celicas, or 3 different Camry's, either. They need to focus on strengthening what they have. Look at what Nissan and Mazda are doing. They're tightening their selection, and just focusing on having better cars. Toyota is saturating each segment of the market. Soon they'll find themselves with vehicles that no one will buy.

[Lomeinhu]

Ain't it kinda funny that two Chinese foods are talking to each other? :D

[The Wok]

Free Chinese food reference to user name post :D

[oldster]

Regardless of what we would like to see Toyota has seemingly built a very profitable car company. If you would like to see something more radical in design or backing for the aftermarket or performance side it looks like you need to find another company. As long as they follow their plan and it continues to generate the margins they seek don't look for any significant changes in their approach.

[Lomeinhu]

Oldster,

I understand what you're saying. I'm being more speculative at this point, rather than describing what's happening right now, except that I believe that my speculation will be proven to be true unless Toyota changes their policies. They're heading in the wrong direction basically. I know that they're the 3rd biggest car company. But that doesn't mean they'll stay up there. For all we know, Toyota can pump out millions of Corollas every year and still be on top, but that doesn't mean Toyota won't become a car brand that ppl look down upon. Almost everything about Toyota right now screams "corporate product" or "mass production." Again, except the Celica and Matrix (well, if we include Lexus, then the IS and SC430), which are definitely more designer dictated. I prided myself in owning the Celica because it went from concept to reality without much change. One look at some other cars, and you'll know that the designers had more input than the suits.

[oldster]

I understand what you are saying and would like to see a more exciting Toyota too. The problem is we don't know what their plan is, it may be to pump out millions of Corollas. Their goal is to be profitable, if that means mass manufacturing toaster like cars then that is what they will do. They obviously have felt some compunction to be a bit daring. The MRS and Celica are not what you would really call main stream corporate type cars. Who knows what they will do next.

[HilfigerCelica]

I agree that Toyota isn't inspiring any young people with their cars besides the MR2 and the Celica which is fading with the lack of forced induction. But you have to look at it from a bussiness side, the Camry sells about half a million in 2000 vs the 40K Celica's that were sold that yr. In 2001 that gap grew bigger with less people buying Celica's. Any of the SUV's or trucks would also trounce the sales of the Celica's.

You have to look at the demand. Regular people DO NOT MOD. The Ford F150 sells about a million trucks each yr and the Silerado/ Sierra sells like hotcakes. And how inspiring are these trucks when you look at them? Most of these trucks will never see anything more than maybe an air filter and exhausts. Look around any shopping mall and you'll see that people want cars that are roomy, reliable and built solid. Performance is usually the last on the list.

Also with Nissan raising the hp number benchmark, regular people don't care. 75% of Camry sales are auto 4 cyl. Go to a busy building or whatever and ask people how many hp or ft lb of torque is in their car or truck and most will won't know. Why did the last gen Eclipse go bye bye? cause regular people want more space, plus they think it's faster with more low end torque.

I hope the Scion brand will bring some passion back into the youth market. As far as Toyota, building cars the "stirs the soul", you can forget about it. They make their money on what regular people want. Just take a look at the best selling cars in America:

F150
Silverado
Camry
Accord
Taurus

None of these are focused to boyracers cause we don't buy as many cars as regular people.

[Lomeinhu]

Hmmm...maybe I do need to see it from a different perspective. However, don't get me wrong, I wasn't talking from an aftermarket point of view (I pointed that out earlier). I am speaking from a broader perspective. I don't know why I even care this much (I'm guessing brand loyalty), but something makes me wanna be able to buy a car that I can be enthusiastic about and it is still a Toyota. Maybe it's just me. I want to be one of the executives of Toyota and tell my colleagues, "OF course we'll still have the Camry and the Corolla. Those are the cars that drive our business, after all. But we can still make the profits that we make now by trimming down on the number of models and focus on making each vehicle in each segment much better than they are now." From a business point of view, I don't think that's a bad idea at all. In fact, that's basically the policy that made Lexus the best selling luxury brand in America. Compare Lexus to BMW or Mercedes. For each car, Lexus has at most 2 trim levels (3 or 4 if you count special editions, etc.), i.e. different engines. On the other hand, BMW and MB offer so many varieties that sometimes it's hard to pick which one. Lexus used this to its advantage. It offered most 1 version of each car, which means that a customer wanting to buy a car basically got everything he/she could want pretty much standard, AND without having the prices jacked up. Here's a breakdown:

LEXUS
ES-->300
IS-->300
GS-->300 and 430
LS-->430
RX-->300
LX-->470
SC-->430

BMW
3-->325, 330, coupes, sedans, AWD versions of each, and convertibles, and M
5-->530 and 540, and M
7-->745 (?) and 750 (?)

MB
Tons.

Toyota HAS a success formula. But they're not using it for "Toyota." Of course, Toyota needs to provide a wider range of cars than Lexus, but no need for so many. As soon as this many varieties come into play, you'll realize that Toyota is too profit-driven, and not driver-driven. Each Toyota car may provide all the things that one could want, but you won't be able to escape the feeling that you're driving in a livingroom on wheels. But it doesn't have to be that way.

[Lomeinhu]

Oh, just to make this point clear: i could care less that no turbo comes out. Sure, it'd be nice, but the fact that Toyota doesn't have a turbo for the Celica doesn't make the car any less awesome for me. I love it for what it is. I didn't buy the car and then say, "Shoot! This car DOESN'T come with a turbo and AWD?"

And if any of you need analogies as to what I'm worried about, maybe the following will help:

1. Sega Dreamcast--best selling console ever in the first 3 weeks of introduction. Great games, but quickly died b/c of hardware (see? power DOES help the image, even if no one buys it for the power), PS2 hype, and mostly bad rep from the Saturn. Pretty sad considering that PSOne still sells for $99 and DC sells for $49.

2. Teen (and parody) movies--Scary Movie 2, Blair Witch 2, Not Another Teen Movie, and countless others. Obvious attempts to cash in on the craze. Market quickly saturates.

3. Pontiac Aztek--example of a car company answering a question no one asked. What does the Aztek do that no other cars do? Again, poorly executed, just like the Scion. Even endorsements and multiple ads won't help a sinking ship.

Counter example--Mitsubishi Eclipse. Wildly successful even though it was geared towards the "younger generation." Spearheaded Mitsubishi's makeover for the last 2 years. Mitsubishi still pushing the Eclipse. No doubt that the Eclipse contributed heavily to improving the brand's image. This is especially a good example b/c not only did a car that supposedly targeted a small segment help the company, it's a car that ISN'T very favorable for us car tuning heads. Likewise, Toyota doesn't need to make tuneable cars to improve its line-up.

[peleus21]

any of you hear of the new toyota spur brand?
i seen it on a web site if i find it i will post it but the matrix, celica, and some new sporty cars are to be in the line and it is suppose to be focused on a younger market with affordable cars

[HilfigerCelica]

It's called the Scion.

[pinoyracer]

C'mon guys, don't loose hope on Toyota now

I too is a Toyota Fanatic, When I was just a lil kid, our first car was a Toyota Corona. Those where the first Corolla, then we moved to US and our first car was a 79 Toyota Celica GT, then after that, we bought a 94 Corolla DX and now, a 2000 Celica.

Who cares if some of the newer cars that they are selling have a lot of HP in them. 10-15 years from now, what brand of old cars you'll still be see in the streets running, yup that's right, it's Toyota, and where do you see those other brands, hmmm junk yard?? scrap?? on the dealer for sale/on the streets for sale??

That's why alot of people would still prefer toyota because they are tough. They don't break easily and they don't wear out faster not like other brands out there.

[Lomeinhu]

No one's jumping ship (yet). I still have my Celica. And I will probably have it for a long time. This isn't a personal agenda, considering that even if Toyota came out with an awesome car I wouldn't be able to buy it. Sure, Toyota still might make the longest-lasting cars out there. But for many ppl out there, a 3 year lease is sufficient. At the same time, I don't believe that a majority of the people keep their cars for over 10 years, after only which it makes much difference. I just feel like Toyota is getting lazy and showing that they have little faith in the cars that they put out. It's as if they're saying, "Ok, we did our 'radical' thing with the Celica and MR2, but DON'T FORGET! we still have our regular cars!" so Celica and MR2 get put in the backburner lest they take away too much attention from the other cars.

[MarkyMark]

Originally posted by lomeinhu
Doubt it. Besides, Toyota can't count on one-hit wonders. WHo buys a Camry with any enthusiasm?

haha....where's Mao

[MarkyMark]

I for one want an insanely powerful car that I can keep for 15-20 years and work on, take apart, clean, etc. There are no cars out today that I'd like to do this with....certainly none of toyota's cars.

[Lomeinhu]

Mao's the one with the supercharged Camry? Haha...yes, he's an exception. I used to really really want a Solara and slap on the supercharger, too. But then the car felt too big for me and I fell in love with the Celica, so...

Most of us know that RX-7's didn't always last very long due to lack of good maintenance, while the Supra TT was known for its reliability. Anyone know how reliable the 300ZX TT was?

[MarkyMark]

300zx's are supposedly somewhat reliable...I heard they're painfully expensive to maintain when there's any sort of engine problem. Speaking of which, the zx engine is so damn cramped, you cant even see the turbos...they're all the way underneath

[Lomeinhu]

Oooh, I just found this on Ward's Auto. Take this as my "textual evidence":

"NEW YORK, March 27 (Reuters) - Honda Motor Co. Ltd. <7267.T> and Toyota Motor Corp. <7203.T> unveiled plans on Wednesday to pursue car buyers who have the least money to spend and the hardest tastes to please -- those under 25 years old.

"In previews for the New York Auto Show, both automakers showed off models aimed at a coming wave of 75 million potential customers in the United States born from the late 1970s to the mid-1990s, known collectively as "Generation Y" or "Echo Boomers."

"Both companies reason that by getting to these buyers when they're young, they may be able to keep them buying Toyotas and Hondas as they grow older. But while Honda will offer a U.S.-designed and built sport utility vehicle, Toyota appears ready to adapt Japanese vehicles and sell them under a separate name in Toyota showrooms.

"It may seem odd for automakers to focus such resources on appealing to such a young group, many of whom aren't even old enough to drive, when the average age of a U.S. new-car buyer is 44.

"But automakers need a reliable base of buyers to justify spending billions on developing new vehicles and tooling factories, and it's easier to keep old buyers than win new ones. In 2001, 53.8 percent of households that bought a new vehicle did so from the same automaker that sold them their previous car or truck, according to R.L. Polk & Co. research.

"Strong loyalty can turn into a detriment if it's only the loyal who buy. Although the average age of Toyota buyers is the same as for the industry as a whole, according to J.D. Power and Associates, it has begun to creep up above 50 on some high-volume models.

"Art Spinella, industry analyst with CNW Marketing/Research, said the best example of the danger of ignoring young buyers was Oldsmobile, which had some of the most popular family sedans of the 1970s but is now being shut down by General Motors Corp. <GM.N> for lack of draw among modern buyers.

"'If you don't add people at the lower end you run out of customers,' he said."

There. It's what I've been trying to say but said in a better way. What some of you were concerned about regarding my argument was that I'm concentrating on a segment that brings in relatively little profit for Toyota (reminder: still not talking about aftermarket). The only thing that the article doesn't address is the fact that Toyota's Scion vehicles garnered little interest from the visitors. I've tried to be as open minded about car design as possible. I think the WRX is ugly, but it's interesting and unique so much so that I believe it's a design success. And it has the hardware to back it up; at least it's not ugly and weak. At the same time, I don't think that a pretty car with crappy reliability and weak performance is a design success at all. It's all about balance. But Toyota's trend has been overpowered SUVs that REQUIRE underpowered compact cars to meet the average gas mileage restrictions. Also, the focus has still been on middle age drivers (of course they can't be forgotten, either). Scion's introduction in 2005 may good in that there's quite a bit of time for changes, but also it may be late to start when companies are introducing new cars by this time next year.

[FriedRice]

good point.... about the marketing solely to older folk.... if u market to kids even before they are old enough to drive... they have memories.... if they fall in love with a type of car when they young, they would probably hold on to that when they are older... i've been brought up to love toyota since i was young (dad=toyota fanatic..... remember "i love what u do for me, toyota!") and now im driving a celica..... marketing towards younger people not a bad idea at all, IMO..... and power matters. the hp unit is universally recognizable.... even dull people understand that the more hp, the better..... they dont know about power to weight ratio or whatnot... but they are impressed by high numbers of hp..... and as for why camry auto 4 cylinder sells better, same reason why corolla sells well.... cuz its cheaper. the new V6 with a few options comes out near the price of an avalon.... incidently.... i dont see the new avalon lasting very long, cuz the camry is gonna cut into sales ie-new altima and maxima... the camry got a lot bigger and avalon pretty much stayed the same.... and camry now has navigation too........ who's gonna buy an avalon now?

long post again.... haha chinese foods? where's banana ryce? wait.... thats not chinese food :gap:

[HilfigerCelica]

Originally posted by FriedRice
good point.... about the marketing solely to older folk.... if u market to kids even before they are old enough to drive... they have memories.... if they fall in love with a type of car when they young, they would probably hold on to that when they are older... i've been brought up to love toyota since i was young (dad=toyota fanatic..... remember "i love what u do for me, toyota!") and now im driving a celica..... marketing towards younger people not a bad idea at all, IMO

Good point, when I was a kid and couldn't drive I wanted a Toyota Truck. I eventually started to like imports and the gas mileage so that's the only reason why I didn't get a Tacoma. If something were to happen to the Celica, I'd probably get a RAV4 or a Double Cab.

[Keyshawn]

Lots of interesting and thoughtful points here. Basically, a simplified version of my take is this:

Toyota should keep doing what they are doing with the Camry and other models targeted at conservative middle-age people. They're doing a great job on that front.

But if they are going to start a new brand, "Scion" they need to get some new blood in there to run things. They need to get young people that know what young people want. Basically, they haveta hire ME. j/k ;) Hehe, hell I bet there are lots of us that could do a better job of marketing their youth-targeted cars than those old bastards.

Same thing with TRD. Toyota needs to fire the morons in charge there and hire people who can capitalize on the import/compact performance phenomenon and give Toyota performance enthusiasts what they want and ask for. Period.

[cam_n_scott]

I think it will be interesting to see what happens with the 350Z when that comes out. It seems like they are marketing that car in the way that would appeal to the market segment we are discussing here:

1. Relatively inexpensive
2. You can buy a base model that is itching to be upgraded over time
3. If you get the base model, the aftermarket parts already exist. It wont necessarily be inexpensive to make it really fast, but it will be readily available.
4. If you've got the cash up front, you can buy a really fast, really expensive version right off the shelf

[Lomeinhu]

I definately think that the 350Z and the RX8 are on the right track. A lot of ppl are concerned about the lack of turbos and whatnot, but that stuff only makes the cars more expensive to own and maintian (not to mention insurance). And that turns off a lot of people. Also, the ppl most likely to buy cars like the RX8 and the 350Z are probably in their high 20's to 40's. They're most likely unmarried or childless. They're just making their big bucks but not yet enough to afford 911's. They still want to drive for fun but without having to buy another car for practical reasons. The problem with each of the last 3 Japanese TT cars (supra, RX7, and 300ZX) was that although their performance was more than what anyone could ask for, the price basically overshot the age group that the cars were meant to target. Who here remembers craving each of those 3 cars but knowing that you can't afford it? But now the RX8 and the 350Z are within reach for many of the ppl who wanted a ZX or RX or Supra before. After we get our first well-paying jobs, ZX and the RX will most likely be the cars we take a look at. Toyota is missing this: this isn't a risk that Mazda and Nissan are taking. Over the past few years, even with the economy getting worse, the number of sports cars and luxury cars shot up. BMW, Porsche, etc. are doing better than they've ever done before. But not only is TOyota not seeing the 30~40 age group, they're focusing on an age group who can at best look at the pictures of the cars. By the time these "kids" can drive, they're most likely gonna get cars like the Celica, RSX, Civic, etc., not the CCX or BBX.

[HilfigerCelica]

I don't see how anyone could pay for a car as ugly as the CCX or BBX.

[Lomeinhu]

Toyota's already starting to slip...

According to Car and Driver, Toyota's getting ready to appeal to the youth market blah blah blah...."In Europe, where it's been losing money, it will start making small cars with PSA Peugeot Citroen from 2005"

Well, this is also expected. In Europe, almost none of Toyota's cars have ever been highly praised. EVO and Car magazines often criticize Toyota's sub par market appeal (Toyota's quality can still be found in other cars). In fact, the only cars that have gotten good reviews are the IS200, MR2, Celica, and the Corolla T Sport (well, at least decent reviews)

Hmmm...2005. Well, that conveniently coincides with the American launch of the Scion. Maybe there's a whole movement that Toyota's planning. Sure hope that what we're seeing now is NOT what's gonna be riding the wave...

[Lomeinhu]

At least Honda's approach is not too bad...

http://www.caranddriver.com/image_cache/DATA/Caranddriver/images/hp_images/hp_0204_nyshow.jpg

Compare that to the Scion BBX...

http://www.supercars.net/PicFetch?pic=2002_scion_bbx-1.jpg

Sorry, big pic

[Lomeinhu]

A look at competing companies...(involuntary courtesy of Motor Trend.com)

G35 Coupe--I told you it was a beaute. Strikingly similar to the 350Z, though. It's basically the luxury version, I guess.
http://www.motortrend.com/autoshows/ny02/images/InfinitiG35Coupe_o.jpg

MazdaSpeed Protege--170 Hp from Garrett T25 turbocharger. Similar to SEntra Spec V, it looks like.
http://www.motortrend.com/autoshows/ny02/images/MazdaSpeedProtege_o.jpg

Saturn Sky coupe and convertible--supercharged 2.2L 4 cyl 180 hp, 5 speed manual. What an MR2 Spyder might be liike with a GTS engine...
http://www.motortrend.com/autoshows/ny02/images/SaturnSky.jpg

[Lomeinhu]

From Car and Driver:

"Toyota reported March sales of 157,028 vehicles, an increase of 4.1% over last year. Toyota Division enjoyed a best-ever March with sales of 135,767 units, up 3.7%. The Lexus Division also boasted a best-ever March, with 21,261 units sold, an increase of 6.4% over the previous record set last year.

"Nissan reported March sales of 67,572 units, a 15.1% increase versus March, 2001. Nissan credited the performance to strong Altima, Sentra and Maxima sedan sales, which were up 28.8% versus last year.

"Mitsubishi reported March sales of 32,428 units, marking the best March in company history and a 23% gain over March sales in 2001."

Is it a coincidence that the 2 companys with updated models as well as a lot more marketing support are getting such high growths? I think not.

NOTE: On the other hand, it's also a lot easier for smaller companys to post bigger percentage increases, so don't take the percentage difference as direct comparison, i.e. Nissan and Mitsu's are not AS big as they seem, but they're still bigger than Toyota's.

[baNanA_ryCe]

Originally posted by SlasherX
isnt toyota releasing the next supra pretty soon?

yes they are..but under the lexus family :D

[XYRCNCP]

Originally posted by FriedRice
.... i dont see the new avalon lasting very long, cuz the camry is gonna cut into sales ie-new altima and maxima... the camry got a lot bigger and avalon pretty much stayed the same.... and camry now has navigation too........ who's gonna buy an avalon now?

long post again.... haha chinese foods? where's banana ryce? wait.... thats not chinese food :gap:

I'm starting to really like this thread....finally we can talk about something without flaming each other........as for the Avalon, my wife an I own one...and even though the camry now offers nav system.....we wouldn't go to a camry.....1. power is not the same, 2. interior room 3. the avalon feels more luxurious, 4. when the avalon gets redesigned, it will take on a more "lexus-like" look. But then again, I do see your point, you can get a nav system in a Camry and Matrix but not on the "flagship" car......makes no sense. Just like Matrix vs. Celica, the matrix is a cheaper car, same drivetrain (not considering 4WD availability for vvt-i engine matrixes), but yet the Celica costs more and does not get the same treatment as the Matrix. Not only Toyota deprives us of the JDM version, they slap us in the face with TRD BS and the Matrix.......

And like Keyshawn said:
"Toyota needs to fire the morons in charge there [TRD] and hire people who can capitalize on the import/compact performance phenomenon and give Toyota performance enthusiasts what they want and ask for. Period"

whew....thats a lot of typing....

[Lomeinhu]

I'm ok with TRD for now, b/c I don't have any money to spend anyway. I also understand ppl getting pissed at them, too, b/c TRD obviously has their focus somewhere else. The ONLY thing that makes me mad at Toyota's handling of TRD is this:

The Celica was obvious Toyota's answer to the Integra. No doubt about it. Civics and Integra generate quite a bit of revenue for Honda I'm sure, but the single BEST thing about them is that owners become absolute Honda loyalists. That means more sales down the road while gaining a lot of that "young" generation at the same time. That's what Toyota wanted.

When a Honda Civic owner moves up to, say, an Integra, count on him/her to move on to the Accord (family), S2000 (year-end bonus), and so on (Acura, no doubt). Honda has mastered this process and is reaping the benefits. Now every time something new come out, everyone's all over it like piranhas on a cow. Recently, it was the Type S versions of every Acura car, then it was the "i" on front of the famous VTEC, and then now it'll be the new 6 speed manual on the CL. Honda knows this and all it has to do is introduce one little new thing and it's as if the car is automatically the "creme de la creme."

Toyota thought that it was sufficient to throw the market a bone (the Celica) and just let the consumers have it. They now have the best-selling Celica in the history of the car and the corporate heads are happy. Here's the problem: the market did its piranha bit b/c integras and civics are getting a bit too tiresome and outdated; Toyota had a definite winner on its hands: the celica had the new age look, had the comparable preformance, but the bad rep. In order for the Celica (and future successors) to be popular, Toyota had to put in more effort. Sure, we all like the Celica (well, only sort of for some), but are any of us as loyal to this car as Honda lovers are to the Civic and Integra? No way. We might have a few Celica lovers but not in the realm of the collective magnitude of the Honda camp. Toyota missed this and it's no wonder that Celicas dipped 30-some % in sales. Integras and Civics have the history and reputation to allow them to not advertise the cars constantly; Toyota can't just push the car for half a year and expect the Celica to pick up the momentum that the Hondas have.

I believe that Toyota's policy is the main reason that TRD has not done as much as they could be doing. Some say that TRD is focusing on the F1 program, and then if its successful it'll bring reputation and consumer interest to Toyota. But what good is a good F1 program when potential customers see the Camry, or the Avalon (no offense to these owners), or the 10 SUVs? The closest thing that Toyota has to the F1 IS the Celica, IS the Matrix, IS the MR2. Yet they are left in the shadows of the new Camry and Corolla. Honda's not the top of the F1 program, yet it has the S2000 and the RSX that are already well-known. Honda pushes THEM as WELL as the Accord as the company's flagships. Toyota's situation is completely self-contradictory. Toyota is running us in circles. They invest in building a car with a F1 manufacturer (Yamaha), stops supporting the car in less than 2 years, but then they invest in the F1 program while the Scion branch has nothing to do with the F1 program. Basically what I'm saying is: if Toyota and TRD really want to benefit from the F1 program, then they MUST invest in the cars that they sell to the public. It like someone buying a 4 car garage when they only got a geo metro. It's simply bad business policy to invest heavily in something and not have the means to reap the returns.

Unfortunately, it seems like Toyota's gonna run the whole process again. From Motor Trend (in my Scion post):

"The first Scion models will be transplants from the Japanese market, with U.S. specific vehicles to follow in the future. Benefits of this strategy are a ready portfolio of quirky vehicles to import, limited development cost, and no long-term commitment to vehicle lines. In fact, Toyota insiders suggest that the Scion models may be more anecdotal, than serial."

doh!

[HilfigerCelica]

lomeinhu, I'm starting to agree with you more and more. I think almost everyone that bought the Celica back in 2000 were thinking that this would be a REAL competitor with the Civic/ Integra duo. With TRD bringing out S/C for their camry's and trucks, I thought surely they would have one for their performance icon, the MR2 and Celica. Boy were we wrong.............

I think the FI program probably won't bring in any performance cars. Toyota has been in CART for how many yrs?? and the closest thing that they back fully back up is the Camry and Solara with perfromance parts from TRD. Even though these two sell more, the avg Celica owner is more likely to mod their cars. Even if the FI program becomes a success, who cares if it doesn't translate into cars that are perfromance oriented and "stirs the soul."

I think the members of nc.org are doing a better job of promoting the image of Toyota being a young person's car then Toyota is. With Supra's, Celica's, MR2's being at shows and races, the import scene is helping out Toyota. I think we can all agree that they need to help us out now and bring something that "stirs the soul."

[Keyshawn]

Lomeinhu, your ENTIRE post is very insightful. I'll pick out this portion of it to discuss. Yes, I totally agree that this generation Celica was made to be THE answer to the Integra. Toyota did a good job of building a car that is very similar, and superior in some ways. However, Toyota should have also imitated how Honda supports and markets the Integra after it's built and sold. In that respect, they failed miserably.

Originally posted by lomeinhu
The Celica was obvious Toyota's answer to the Integra. No doubt about it. Civics and Integra generate quite a bit of revenue for Honda I'm sure, but the single BEST thing about them is that owners become absolute Honda loyalists. That means more sales down the road while gaining a lot of that "young" generation at the same time. That's what Toyota wanted.


HilfigerCelica's post also echoes my sentiments.

Originally posted by HilfigerCelica
lomeinhu, I'm starting to agree with you more and more. I think almost everyone that bought the Celica back in 2000 were thinking that this would be a REAL competitor with the Civic/ Integra duo. With TRD bringing out S/C for their camry's and trucks, I thought surely they would have one for their performance icon, the MR2 and Celica. Boy were we wrong.............

[Keyshawn]

Simply put, here's a question to Celica owners everywhere: Does Toyota's treatment of the Celica INSPIRE you to buy another Toyota down the line?

That's one of the things Honda has mastered. You better believe that alot of these kids with Integras are dreaming of getting that RSX, that S2000, or even that NSX sometime down the line. And when they get older, they'll probably at least look into one the Acura sedans or coupes. Honda hooked 'em for life. I think Toyota is totally missing that opportunity with A LOT of our generation.

Originally posted by lomeinhu
When a Honda Civic owner moves up to, say, an Integra, count on him/her to move on to the Accord (family), S2000 (year-end bonus), and so on (Acura, no doubt). Honda has mastered this process and is reaping the benefits. Now every time something new come out, everyone's all over it like piranhas on a cow. Recently, it was the Type S versions of every Acura car, then it was the "i" on front of the famous VTEC, and then now it'll be the new 6 speed manual on the CL. Honda knows this and all it has to do is introduce one little new thing and it's as if the car is automatically the "creme de la creme."

Toyota thought that it was sufficient to throw the market a bone (the Celica) and just let the consumers have it. They now have the best-selling Celica in the history of the car and the corporate heads are happy. Here's the problem: the market did its piranha bit b/c integras and civics are getting a bit too tiresome and outdated; Toyota had a definite winner on its hands: the celica had the new age look, had the comparable preformance, but the bad rep. In order for the Celica (and future successors) to be popular, Toyota had to put in more effort. Sure, we all like the Celica (well, only sort of for some), but are any of us as loyal to this car as Honda lovers are to the Civic and Integra? No way. We might have a few Celica lovers but not in the realm of the collective magnitude of the Honda camp. Toyota missed this and it's no wonder that Celicas dipped 30-some % in sales. Integras and Civics have the history and reputation to allow them to not advertise the cars constantly; Toyota can't just push the car for half a year and expect the Celica to pick up the momentum that the Hondas have.

I believe that Toyota's policy is the main reason that TRD has not done as much as they could be doing. Some say that TRD is focusing on the F1 program, and then if its successful it'll bring reputation and consumer interest to Toyota. But what good is a good F1 program when potential customers see the Camry, or the Avalon (no offense to these owners), or the 10 SUVs? The closest thing that Toyota has to the F1 IS the Celica, IS the Matrix, IS the MR2. Yet they are left in the shadows of the new Camry and Corolla. Honda's not the top of the F1 program, yet it has the S2000 and the RSX that are already well-known. Honda pushes THEM as WELL as the Accord as the company's flagships. Toyota's situation is completely self-contradictory. Toyota is running us in circles. They invest in building a car with a F1 manufacturer (Yamaha), stops supporting the car in less than 2 years, but then they invest in the F1 program while the Scion branch has nothing to do with the F1 program. Basically what I'm saying is: if Toyota and TRD really want to benefit from the F1 program, then they MUST invest in the cars that they sell to the public. It like someone buying a 4 car garage when they only got a geo metro. It's simply bad business policy to invest heavily in something and not have the means to reap the returns.

[Lomeinhu]

Hehe...looks like I got a research paper in my hands :D

[eDriXxxX]

Toyota shouldnt make stupid moves like putting the early rev limiter on the 2002. Really ticks ppl off when to do it with out a word also.

[HilfigerCelica]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Simply put, here's a question to Celica owners everywhere: Does Toyota's treatment of the Celica INSPIRE you to buy another Toyota down the line?

That's one of the things Honda has mastered. You better believe that alot of these kids with Integras are dreaming of getting that RSX, that S2000, or even that NSX sometime down the line. And when they get older, they'll probably at least look into one the Acura sedans or coupes. Honda hooked 'em for life. I think Toyota is totally missing that opportunity with A LOT of our generation.



Yeah, even Nissan (350z), Chevy (Corvette), Ford ( Mustang Cobra), Mazda (RX8), Dodge (Viper) are appealing to the younger generation. They don't nessecarily have to sell a large number of these cars for the company to profit. With these cars as perfromance icons, the company could profits by promoting their image. Ok, someone send this post to Toyota and tell them that they need something to compete with the other guy so that they don't become "an old man's car" like Lincoln or Oldsmobile.

[Lomeinhu]

It's gonna take more than a link to this post to explain anything to them, so that's why I'm thinking of taking some of the stuff we've discussed and making a formal letter out of it. Any suggestions (since that was the point of the topic)?

[turbokid]

My family is brand loyal as well...

'83 Tercel SR5 4x4 Wagon (6spd! It had an extra low gear, also my 1st car for 3 1/2 years) SOLD
'85 Cressida Sedan, still have this baby running strong @ 200k
'94 SR5 4Runner SOLD
'97 Supra LTD ED. TT, see sig, briansbackyard.com
'98 Camry, I forgot the model, but it's the 4 cylinder version...gets great gas mileage!
'98 TRD Supercharged Limited 4Runner
'00 Celica GTS 6spd, bought June '00, as of this post, only 6k miles
'00 SR5 4Runner
'02 Sequoia Limited 4x4

[XYRCNCP]

We should forward this thread to Toyota......
but then again...they would probably just toss it to the side....

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by lomeinhu
It's gonna take more than a link to this post to explain anything to them, so that's why I'm thinking of taking some of the stuff we've discussed and making a formal letter out of it. Any suggestions (since that was the point of the topic)?

Write out that letter. You have some interesting and thought-provoking things to say about their marketing structure, and how they are neglecting the 18-30 yr. old demographic they so desire to capitalize on. Good luck.

[Lomeinhu]

All right, guys, I'll be writing out the letter soon. It'll probably be very similar to what we've discussed. I just want to make sure that no one will forward this post b/c 1. Toyota will most likely disregard it, 2. the forward may undermine the effects of a formal letter. I also hope it's ok if i took some of your opinions and put them in the letter. I'm hoping that I can find the address of the highest ranking executive in Toyota's North American division. Can anyone get a hold of that? I figured that snail mail is has a better chance of not getting tossed out as email, so I'll be going that route. Of course, I'll post the letter up when I'm done for suggestions, changes, etc.

[Lomeinhu]

Partznet has just updated TRD parts for the Matrix... springs, wheels, clutch, and exhaust. They share much with those for the Celica. But this is again Toyota saying, "Well, we've made the Matrix, TRD did the performance bit, and they'll buy in droves. Now how about them Scions, huh?"

[XYRCNCP]

I found this:
Toyota Motor Corp.
19300 Gramercy Place
Torrance, CA 90501
310-787-1310

dunno if its correct or not.....

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by lomeinhu
Partznet has just updated TRD parts for the Matrix... springs, wheels, clutch, and exhaust. They share much with those for the Celica. But this is again Toyota saying, "Well, we've made the Matrix, TRD did the performance bit, and they'll buy in droves. Now how about them Scions, huh?"

Hmmm...if they follow the same development path they took with the Celica, then this is what the TRD guys are saying in their offices right this second: "Hey, fellas, we're done with the Matrix!! Let's get crackin' on that Highlander Supercharger that all our customers want!!!"

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by XYRCNCP
I found this:
Toyota Motor Corp.
19300 Gramercy Place
Torrance, CA 90501
310-787-1310

dunno if its correct or not.....

That's right. I drive by Toyota's US headquarters all the time.

[XYRCNCP]

cool....finally my collections experience paid off....=P
next time you drive by....throw some rotten eggs out the window....or a bag of crap with TRD's logo on it.....hehe

[Lomeinhu]

Thanks for the info, XYRCNCP!

[Lomeinhu]

As mentioned in another post, the Matrix will be a pace car for the pro celebrity race (BTW, anyone going?) sporting a TRD Supercharger. I wonder if this is going to be a testbed for Toyota to see if there's enough enthusiasm for the SC? BUt then again, the pro celebrity race was never really advertised nationwide, so i don't see how they CAN see any enthusiasm.

Anyways, I was scanning the month's Car and Driver. And it's really strange how some of the issues that we've touched upon was also discussed in the magazine. C&D's editorial article talked about the financial returns of investing in a F1 program and urged American companies to do the same. The author mentioned Honda's success in F1 as one of the main reasons that their sporty cars do so well. Of course, the same went for Italian car makers. In addition, consumers are also eager to buy cars from companies who have sporty cars derived from F1 technology/ influence.

BTW, saw a silver Matrix today. Very nice car. A lot smaller than I thought (except with tons of interior room).