starting to go in 2nd gear?

[deathrow23]

ok..u come to a stop light ..u down shift ..to second, all of a sudden to light turns green,,your at about 2 mph,,some reason cant shift to 1st..and start goin in 2nd,of course u have to rev it harder then in 1st so u dont stall, does that mess anything up,if u do it alot..

[vvtlikick]

That'll increase the wear on your clutch. But I doubt it'll make a difference in the long term.

If you learn to double-clutch, you'll have no problem downshifting into first at any speed (less than 40mph).

<b>The Process of Double-clutching</b>

<ol><li>Depress the clutch</li><li>Shift into neutral</li><li>Release the clutch</li><li>Blip the throttle (You'll have to practice to learn the right amount for the speed and the gear)</li><li>Depress the clutch</li><li>Shift into the new gear</li><li>Release the clutch</li></ol>

If you did it correctly, the shifter will slide silky smooth into gear.

Also, if you're too slow in shifting into gear and releasing the clutch, the car may lurch when you let the clutch. So either practice on moving faster after blipping the throttle, or add a blip of the throttle before you let out the clutch for the second time.

The reason that double-clutching allows you to downshift, when you couldn't normally, is that it performs synchronization manually, sparing the synchros the effort and wear of synchronizing the transmission shafts.

[t2000gts]

or you can do it in the RSX Commercial Guy Style...just hold the gas down, and depress clutch, shift to first, and get off clutch...all the while holding down gas.

[2002SpectraBlueGT]

Just a question about the above mentioned process of double-clutching...Why would you shift to neutral? Can't you just hold the clutch in the entire time? What is the point of going to neutral (other than making this process more difficult to time).

I learned to double-clutch from riding motorcycles, and shifting to neutal is not an option. Just wondering if you can explain the reasoning for the neutral shift. Although your explaination does answer why it's called "DOUBLE-clutch" which always confused me since I only ever press it once!

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by 2002SpectraBlueGT
Just a question about the above mentioned process of double-clutching...Why would you shift to neutral? Can't you just hold the clutch in the entire time? What is the point of going to neutral (other than making this process more difficult to time).

I learned to double-clutch from riding motorcycles, and shifting to neutal is not an option. Just wondering if you can explain the reasoning for the neutral shift. Although your explaination does answer why it's called "DOUBLE-clutch" which always confused me since I only ever press it once! I not familiar with the inner mechanics of motorcycle gearboxes, so I can't comment on that.

But if you don't release the clutch in neutral, you won't be performing the synchronization, so shifting effort will remain high and the synchros won't be spared any wear. You could move the shifter to neutral without depressing the clutch at all (then blip the throttle and move the shifter into the new gear without ever depressing the clutch), but I don't feel comfortable doing that (and you'd have to be spot on with your revs).

Of course, you should still blip the throttle so there's no lurch when you let the clutch out, but if you don't do it in neutral with the clutch out you won't have the silky smooth shifter effort.

And with a little practice, I don't feel the process is difficult to time, and it is pretty quick too with practice.

[VZV21]

You know, everytime we shift gears, we tend to overlook, we always shift into neutral first.

deathrow23
You had trouble because you hit the lockout. It happens all the time. You shouldn't be to worried about it. Just don't lug the engine. Clutch wear, can be affected....

For automatic cars, many "winter" modes are a second gear start.

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by VZV21

deathrow23
You had trouble because you hit the lockout. It happens all the time. You shouldn't be to worried about it. Just don't lug the engine. Clutch wear, can be affected....There is no lockout. I engage 1st at 15-20mph all the time (with double clutching), and could do it at a even higher speed if I wanted.

Shifting effort is high when the synchros are asked to do alot of synchronization, and the first gear synchros seem to be alot stingier than the other gears' synchros.

[2002SpectraBlueGT]

Well, to let you know where I'm coming from (how I learned to double-clutch) is motorcycles (Sport bikes, mainly). The way it works on almost all bikes is the gears are sequential. The order is typically 1-neutral-2-3-4-5-6. So getting the bike into neutral is not practical while shifting down from 5th-4th for instance.

:confused: What I'm still not understanding is; what difference does it make whether or not the clutch is depressed or out but in neutral while you blip the gas? Since your clutch plates are apart while the clutch is depressed, how could that cause any wear or harm? I've been driving my '02 GT for about 3 weeks now and I always blip with the clutch depressed rather than with the clutch out and the shifter in neutral. It "seems" to work fine.

I was also trying the "heel-toe" method earlier tonight but I think I'll give up on that...it's too awkward to hold your foot like that.

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by 2002SpectraBlueGT
Well, to let you know where I'm coming from (how I learned to double-clutch) is motorcycles (Sport bikes, mainly). The way it works on almost all bikes is the gears are sequential. The order is typically 1-neutral-2-3-4-5-6. So getting the bike into neutral is not practical while shifting down from 5th-4th for instance.

:confused: What I'm still not understanding is; what difference does it make whether or not the clutch is depressed or out but in neutral while you blip the gas? Since your clutch plates are apart while the clutch is depressed, how could that cause any wear or harm? I've been driving my '02 GT for about 3 weeks now and I always blip with the clutch depressed rather than with the clutch out and the shifter in neutral. It "seems" to work fine.

I was also trying the "heel-toe" method earlier tonight but I think I'll give up on that...it's too awkward to hold your foot like that. Well... double clutching spares the clutch the same as revmatching without releasing the clutch in neutral, but double clutching has the added benefit of <i>also</i> sparing the synchros.

If you're not afraid of downshifting (don't ask me why some people seem to be), try this: downshift to third from a cruise in fifth only revmatching (any multi-gear downshift should plainly reveal the difference), then try it again with double clutching. If you do it correctly, both methods should produce a downshift without any lurch, but the shifter will move far easier on the double clutched downshift. The shifter moves easier because the synchros have virtually nothing to do, you've already manually synchronized the transmission.

Also, when I heel-toe, my toe is high on the brake pedal, and my heel is low on the brake pedal, but it took me awhile to get used to it without feeling awkward.

[VZV21]

Originally posted by vvtlikick
There is no lockout. I engage 1st at 15-20mph all the time (with double clutching), and could do it at a even higher speed if I wanted.

Shifting effort is high when the synchros are asked to do alot of synchronization, and the first gear synchros seem to be alot stingier than the other gears' synchros.

Try doing that without double clutching, you'll notice a lock-out.

Plus, back in the heydays of the early misshifting posts, some some asking "why is there a lockout for first, but not 2nd".

Double-clutching overrides the lockout. You can also double clutch into reverse.

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by VZV21


Try doing that without double clutching, you'll notice a lock-out.

Plus, back in the heydays of the early misshifting posts, some some asking "why is there a lockout for first, but not 2nd".

Double-clutching overrides the lockout. You can also double clutch into reverse. When you say lockout, it sounds like there's some switch that won't allow a downshift above a certain speed. But it's just the synchros balking (is that the right term?).

And the people who asked "why is there a lockout for first, but not 2nd", were mistaken about the existence of a lockout.

I think at least one person has misshifted into 1st at greater than 40mph, they just threw the shifter in there hard and fast.

[VZV21]

yeah, when you hamfist the shifter....what lockout?

[DavidYan]

just wanted to add that starting out in second gear at 2mph will create excessive load on the engine and cause pinging/knocking.

[t2000gts]

i have an automatic, i've started out in 2nd (even launched in 2nd) hundreds of times. no pinging/knocking here.

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by t2000gts
i have an automatic, i've started out in 2nd (even launched in 2nd) hundreds of times. no pinging/knocking here. Yeah, but your torque converter was slipping more than a start in first. Manuals would have to slip the clutch more than a start in first. But the Celica doesn't exactly have explosive power just off idle, so I've never felt the need to start in second

[t2000gts]

yeah, it puts strain on the transmission (i've had to do it in bad weather, hell sometimes even in good weather, i can spin the tires through a turn but not really torque steer).

but he said it puts a lot of strain on the engine, and you'll get pinging/knocking.

[ishido]

2002SpectraBlueGT
I don't think it is possible to double-clutch a motorcycle. I used to ride a crotch rocket and I rev-matched my downshifts. Or if you were really bored... you could rev-match and downshift without using the clutch. Which was easier than it seemed.

[2002SpectraBlueGT]

Ok, here's my problem...I've been confusing rev-matching with double-clutching this whole time! I only ever rev-match...I never have a problem putting it into gear either. So why double-clutch vs just rev-matching?

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by 2002SpectraBlueGT
Ok, here's my problem...I've been confusing rev-matching with double-clutching this whole time! I only ever rev-match...I never have a problem putting it into gear either. So why double-clutch vs just rev-matching? Well, double-clutching has a precise definition, but I think some people include double-clutching as a type of revmatching. When <b>I</b> say revmatch, I mean revmatching without double-clutching.

The only benefits of double-clutching over merely revmatching are reduced shifter effort, and less synchro wear.

Of course, if you downshift without either technique, you will experience increased clutch wear as well as an unpleasant lurch with each downshift.

[daSchtick]

The purpose of releasing the clutch in neutral , then re-pressing the clutch, is to increase the RPM of the transmission input shaft, which in turn causes the input shaft RPM to more close match the synchros and gears, allowing the gears to mesh and engage. Rev matcing the engine with clutch depressed, does nothing for the RPM of the input shaft, which is now just coasting when the tranny is in neutral. The clutch must be released to affect the speed of the input shaft.

As far as lockouts, THERE AREN'T ANY! (I'm no tranny expert, but all of this talk of "Lockouts" makes me feel like I am the only one here who understands how transmissions work!) The reason why the transmission does not engage into certain gears is due to the lack of synchronization between the input shaft and the gears. There are synchronizers installed in today's transmissions to compensate for some RPM mis-match, but when the mis-match is too great, and synchronizers cannot overcome this, and the gear shift will not engage (you say that you are "locked" out).

In yesterday's transmissions, you HAD TO double clutch to engage any gear, as these has no synchronizers to help with RPM mis-match (HELP ME! Every gear has a "lockout"! I better ride the bus!). The only way to change gears in those vehicles was to EXACTLY match the RPM between the input shaft and the gears.

Lastly, as far as the second gear in a GT-S is concerned, the reason why it shifts into second at higher speeds than it should, is that the synchronizers work extremely well, too well in fact. It was probably designed to work this well though due to the high RPM shifting that was going to take place into that gear very often. If it were not for the great synchros on 2nd, occassionally you might get this "lockout" feeling when shifting into second after winding out 1st due to, again, RPM mis-match.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but you guys and you "lockouts" crack me up!

-Nick

[vvtlikick]

Originally posted by daSchtick
I'm no tranny expert, but all of this talk of "Lockouts" makes me feel like I am the only one here who understands how transmissions work!'fraid not ;).

[gumber]

Does anyone know of a body kit that would adapt itself well to a ram air fitting preferably higher up? The Ram air concept is a better system if its done right (ie it has to be sealed tight to provide pressure). It also should be designed with a pocket area to catch water. After working years on bikes with both CAI's and ram air I would much rather have ram air than the simple CAI system anyday. For those of you who are skeptical about how they work check out http://www.factorypro.com/magazine_articles/mag_sportrider,RamAir,part2.html. Yes I know its a bike article and i'm sure i will get flamed for it but guess what. A engine is an engine so it doesn't really matter.

[tool462]

Originally posted by gumber
Does anyone know of a body kit that would adapt itself well to a ram air fitting preferably higher up? The Ram air concept is a better system if its done right (ie it has to be sealed tight to provide pressure). It also should be designed with a pocket area to catch water. After working years on bikes with both CAI's and ram air I would much rather have ram air than the simple CAI system anyday. For those of you who are skeptical about how they work check out http://www.factorypro.com/magazine_articles/mag_sportrider,RamAir,part2.html. Yes I know its a bike article and i'm sure i will get flamed for it but guess what. A engine is an engine so it doesn't really matter.

That was random...

[SY2KCelica]

Originally posted by tool462


That was random...

hahahahaha yes it was....hahaha

[gumber]

Not realy it was in regards to the one person who sorta made a ram air system into his air box from the fog light scoope.

[gumber]

Crap my bad... wrong thread/

[Kit99bar]

I can start moving from a stop in 2nd and 3rd with no problems.. it's smooth as silk.. just gotta be careful with the clutch