Thought you guys might find this interesting... [Archive]

celichung

04-14-2002, 05:29 PM

Sh!t those people at SCC can't drive a American car, and that's that, they're so used to 4 cylinder front wheel drive cars with less torque than horsespower that they wouldn't know what to do with anymore torque than 140 ft lbs. Slasher, we all know the Cobra R is pretty close to Z06 or Viper territory. Oh BTW, I couldn't wait for the 03 cobra and picked up a 01 last week, oh and another BTW this is Huangc. Idiots at SCC, what in the world compelled them to do a comparo with a Cobra R and a Lotus?! Oh and power to weight ratio, the cobra is has a underrated 385 BHP, they are known to dyno at 385 rwhp. The Cobra has more torque than HP. The cobra weighs somewhere around 3200lbs, no radio, no frills, it's a non compromisng car. So if the lotus weighs in at 1400lbs with 200 hp and I know thats at the crank honda overrates their motors. The torque is nowhere near the hp levels than I do see it as a even race with the cobra coming out on top, I'm just tired of hearing about honda's with their motors and their, "I own all" mentality. Oh and also, the B18 has been out for at least a decade, the 4.6 mod motor on the mustang has been out for roughly 7 years, it's a pretty new motor considering it's of American design. In all honestly I have more respect for the 1.8 VVTi-L's in our celica's than for any honda motor.

honda troll

04-14-2002, 07:45 PM

In all honestly I have more respect for the 1.8 VVTi-L's in our celica's than for any honda motor.

Well then, you and your respect can sit there and be happy with yourself, while you are staring at the taillights of my S2000 with its F20C 2.0 liter engine.

SlasherX

04-14-2002, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by honda troll

Well then, you and your respect can sit there and be happy with yourself, while you are staring at the taillights of my S2000 with its F20C 2.0 liter engine.

and how much more does that car/motor cost compared to the 2zz and gt-s?

I absolutely ABHORE people who compare two different class of cars against each other and try to say oens more superior...

hey! lets compare a kia motor to my Ls1! its fair, right?

good choice of user name..

MilinGTS

04-14-2002, 09:46 PM

im with the stang driver ehre.
comparing two cars in diff classes is difficult.

i have seen dissapointing autocross results with the Cobra R though, but again most likely its because the car is NOT EASY TO DRIVE at all. it has so much torque the driver around here has a lot of trouble keeping it on the road.

the elise is lighter and has more hp than torque and thus is probably about a million times easier to drive faster in a turn.
you can mash the throttle and not have enough torque to break it loose enough to raise all hell.

ever driven a z06?
compare that to driving an s2000

i did that.
if you have done something similar you will know what im talking about.

Ntence99

04-14-2002, 09:54 PM

im sorry but personally i like jap technogy more than amarican mussle..my lil celica will out run at gt mustang,and im right on the ass of my friends lt1z28...your lookin at a 1.8 l and a 5.7 that s suppose to be americas finnest a few years ago...Just wait till someboody has the balls to release a turbo..THEN MY FRIENDS!! Its on....and about the s2000 (sweet car but ive ran a few and they arnt the best thing since sliced bread.i was gonna eget one before i boght my baby(gts)..the only advantage a honda has is a huge after market while th e celica(go FIGUR)besides that there are now thousand of lil hondas with hood lights and an exaust tip.(my pet peave) that seen a movie and wanna be just like paul walker..these are the ones i enjoy most when my lil red machine runs abot 45 mph and some lil honda wants some and i drop it ito second and wave goodbuy letting them choke on my exaust fummes.Dont get me wrong. Im cool with every1 in the scene..but some of these lil twurps are givin true fans a bad name With all respect to true honda tuners........Peace

celichung

04-14-2002, 10:09 PM

Okay, Honda Troll, you wanna magazine race? How about I race your s2000 with my 2001 cobra, stock? Pfft, Honda Troll, you are the epitome of rice boy. (No offense to Honda people, I so happen to have a Honda Civic EX 4dr automatic, it's a good daily driver with 30-40 mpg, no mods whatsoever)

SlasherX

04-14-2002, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Ntence99
im sorry but personally i like jap technogy more than amarican mussle..my lil celica will out run at gt mustang,and im right on the ass of my friends lt1z28...your lookin at a 1.8 l and a 5.7 that s suppose to be americas finnest a few years ago...Just wait till someboody has the balls to release a turbo..THEN MY FRIENDS!! Its on....and about the s2000 (sweet car but ive ran a few and they arnt the best thing since sliced bread.i was gonna eget one before i boght my baby(gts)..the only advantage a honda has is a huge after market while th e celica(go FIGUR)besides that there are now thousand of lil hondas with hood lights and an exaust tip.(my pet peave) that seen a movie and wanna be just like paul walker..these are the ones i enjoy most when my lil red machine runs abot 45 mph and some lil honda wants some and i drop it ito second and wave goodbuy letting them choke on my exaust fummes.Dont get me wrong. Im cool with every1 in the scene..but some of these lil twurps are givin true fans a bad name With all respect to true honda tuners........Peace

we all are now dumber because of your post...thank you.

chameleon

04-14-2002, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by SlasherX

we all are now dumber because of your post...thank you.

LOL, amen to that! :rofl:

atehrani

04-14-2002, 10:44 PM

I'm curious as to what part of the article you do not agree with SlasherX? All of it sounds legit to me, enlighten us.

SlasherX

04-14-2002, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by atehrani
I'm curious as to what part of the article you do not agree with SlasherX? All of it sounds legit to me, enlighten us.

the Cobra R dyno, quartermile time...

atehrani

04-15-2002, 01:35 AM

As you should know, dynos can vary. The manufacturer claims 385 hp @ 6250 rpm and 385 lb-ft @ 4250 rpm. They got 347 hp @ 5600 rpm and 339 lb-ft @ 4500. Still very respectable.

The 1/4 times were kinda high, but they did mention that they felt something was wrong. "Despite our best red-blooded American efforts and every launch method in the book, the Cobra would not run better than 13.36 at 106 mph"..."So we switched directions, thinking the slight headwind was causing a problem. Nothing. We even moved to a different location hoping of finding better grip off the line. Still nothing. We're not sure if it was the heat, the grip or the car, but on that day, the Cobra just wouldn't go any quicker."

I'm not sure if you noticed, but the temperature that day was "108 degrees ambient and produced track surface temperatures in the neighborhood of 140 degrees"

So that could be one of the causes of the slightly inaccurate measurements. However, in either case, had the Cobra R produced better 1/4 times and higher dyno numbers. It would have still been beaten by the Lotus on the track. Can't escape the laws of physics.

Takeoff

04-15-2002, 06:50 AM

Atehrani is right. The lotus beat it because of power to weight ratio. The also ran both cars in the same conditions. The cobra R is nice and can definetely make more power but can't run with the lotus stock vs. stock. You guys only believe articles in magazine that write things you want to hear.

ringthree

04-15-2002, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by SlasherX
wow! you guys are a bunch of hypocrites.

Care to explain that one Slasher. You dont like SCC because your fav car didn't win. Thats pretty weak man, I know your better than that.

They explained the situation, if you dont agree then thats fine but dont get bitter it's not becoming.

WillyK

04-15-2002, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by Takeoff
but can't run with the lotus stock vs. stock.

Actually it would kill that Lotus stock vs. stock. Being as it had a Type R engine in it I don't call that stock at all.

And I am not pissed that the Lotus won, I would expect it to. What just pisses me off is how they handle the Cobra R. Maybe the heat had something to do with it, who knows. It should definately be faster than that though.

scapamouche

04-15-2002, 09:09 AM

At least the ITR Elise can be registered in the US. It may not be 'stock', but the Rover engine it comes with cannot be made US emissions legal.

The Elise is probably coming to the US later this year, or next year. I, for one, cannot wait!! The few that are here now are specially imported.

AS for the times, SCC did a very good job of pointing out what they couldn't achieve. How does that make them, and us, hypocrites?

I know, I hate Car and Driver!! The Celica didn't win the Comparo it was in this month. They even tied with the Eclipse, horror of horrors! Obviously they are SSSSOOOOO biased, since a car with a better powerband and better gearing, without a significant electronics problem, and a nicer feeling shifter won. Bah!

SlasherX

04-15-2002, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by ringthree

Care to explain that one Slasher. You dont like SCC because your fav car didn't win. Thats pretty weak man, I know your better than that.

They explained the situation, if you dont agree then thats fine but dont get bitter it's not becoming.

because you were getting on my case over saying a mag article was crap, when in many threads ive seen you same people bitching about poor reviews and what not for the celica..that is a hypocrite.

and since SCC isnt comparing a factory production engined lotus vs the Cobra R (factory production), the results are biased.

its like..ok, well do a comparo of a car that doesnt even have its stock engine, vs a car that does and when surprisingly we cant drive the R worth a damn, the import/acura engined car will prevail!

I'd like SCC to do a comparo with that same lotus with its engine transplant vs. a R with my choice of engine transplant..lets make it fair, shall we?

Edit: and SCC is an import magazine, do we honestly ever expect teh american car/muscle car to win in any of its comparisions?

atehrani

04-15-2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by SlasherX
...Edit: and SCC is an import magazine, do we honestly ever expect teh american car/muscle car to win in any of its comparisions?

Actually they compared a Mustang GT vs the Type R, and guess what? The Mustang whooped it's ass on almost everything (except for lap time). They even said how they liked how the could throttle stear the car through turns.

SCC isn't an import magazine. Its about Sport Compact Cars, it just so happens that the import's have a niche there. I personally wouldn't call a Mustang a compact car.

Besides, they love the Focus SVT. So much so, they have two of them as project cars.

Lastly the comparison between the Lotus and the Cobra R are for two cars available in the US. That is completely fair. And it wasn't SCC's idea to put the Type R motor in there.

iNteGraz92

04-15-2002, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by celichung
In all honestly I have more respect for the 1.8 VVTi-L's in our celica's than for any honda motor.
ANY honda motor? :rolleyes:

WillyK

04-15-2002, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by celichung
In all honestly I have more respect for the 1.8 VVTi-L's in our celica's than for any honda motor.

I'd take an NSX engine over the 2zz

SlasherX

04-15-2002, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by atehrani

Actually they compared a Mustang GT vs the Type R, and guess what? The Mustang whooped it's ass on almost everything (except for lap time). They even said how they liked how the could throttle stear the car through turns.

SCC isn't an import magazine. Its about Sport Compact Cars, it just so happens that the import's have a niche there. I personally wouldn't call a Mustang a compact car.

Besides, they love the Focus SVT. So much so, they have two of them as project cars.

Lastly the comparison between the Lotus and the Cobra R are for two cars available in the US. That is completely fair. And it wasn't SCC's idea to put the Type R motor in there.

then why did SCC print this, and i quote about the Mercury cougar S?

"We aren't much for muscle cars at Sport Compact Car. They're generally viewed as obtuse, overweight relics of times gone by, and we prefer to pretend they don't exist. And, short of a common acknowledgement for almost anything with four wheels, we usually do."

now i think we all know here not to confuse a 99 up cougar with a muscle car..

and that type r vs. GT comparo..yeah the mustang won, but who'd get the final nod? the Type R

This is why i don't view SCC that well..

ringthree

04-15-2002, 12:23 PM

Slasher this is getting a little sad. It's not like they came out and said "HAHAHAHAHA The Lotus beat the Cobra R, take that Slasher" They did a comparsion between the two and the Lotus won. It's just one car. I think you should be proud that they had to use a modded car to beat the Cobra R (which isn't exactly "stock" but thats a whole different story). I think that someone maybe too attached to their car or manufacturer.

Also it's not like domestic mags treat imports well... stop being bitter, I always took you to be the smart domestic guy. Your just tarnishing your image.

msilvia

04-15-2002, 12:58 PM

With regard to the test not being fair because the Elise wasn't stock, I'm pretty sure the basis was price. The modified Elise was roughly the same price as the Cobra. That was the basis for comparison. I'll avoid going off on a rant (which I so desperately want to go on) and just say that I wish more articles would look into how fast you can go and what your options are with $X, rather than just comparing similar styled cars. I wish mags like C&D would compare the Mustang GT with the RSX and Celica when they do comparos. I don't give a **** which wheels spin or how big the engine is. That's not how I shop for cars. If I've got $25k and I'm sports car shopping, I want to know what all my options are.

Also, my casual (and very occasional) reading of SCC seems to show that they're trying very hard to mature their image, to the point of being conspicuous. They used to be a little ricer mag, now they go off on how cool V8s are and how stupid Import Tuner readers are, and how they like their scrappy cars and dirty engine bays. I'm not sure I really buy it - it seems almost too deliberate - but they've changed a lot no matter how you look at it. If your impression of the mag is a few years old, you might give it another look.

Also, I hope that everyone weighing in with an opinion has really read the article. I thought they did a fair bit of gushing about the Cobra, and they mentioned time and time again that this was an odd and not very meaningful comparo. You can read it here (http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/archives/features/feature02_0502.shtml)

"Now we know some of you will hate us for this. But some of you will love us. Either way, this test will light up Internet forums and turn normal, peace-loving car enthusiasts into deranged defenders of their cause. Which is exactly what we like."

Breezer95

04-15-2002, 01:05 PM

double post

Breezer95

04-15-2002, 01:07 PM

I have to definatly add my two cents to this... there really is a lot of hypocritical nonsense going on in here............. quite often everyone bitches about magazine reviews, tests, etc... all he did was post one of the many

This one just hits a tad harder to anybody who really knows their mustangs because this is a magazine who claims up front that they are biased against muscle cars, yet thats what they are comparing here. Not just the its being compared..... but they are comparing a modded car with a stock car...... on top of that is also the fact that they really got some ****ty times with that R, period. Due to conditions or bad driving.. doesn't matter... they got some horrible times and the way its presented - its as if thats the end all, be all for the car and there is a clear winner in the comparison. The magazine has really been biased against muscle cars in general, and for them to put out a review comparison like this one is just flaunting ignorance on their part - nothing more - nothing less.

Never did Slasher tarnish his image at all... never did this become anything of a technical discussion period - the article is just really screwed up and Dave pointed it out and called them a name, then a lot of ppl suddenly come together and make it look like he is wrong or something.............. Im extremly open minded to all car performance in general - as Slasher himself is. I didn't just come in here to defend him - but damn.... I read this thread and it kinda made me wonder why everyone was on an attack and a defense as if there was an immediatly line drawn and you were either all for the magazine and all against it. So they put out some nice tech articles for people dealing with modifications. They are still being close minded if they don't go in depth more and explain why they have certain preconceived notions towards some cars, why they get bad numbers, and how they so seemingly (seemingly heh.. they say so) dislike american muscle cars.

Anyways thats just my 2cents.. or maybe more like 50cents

Oh... also...
"The comparison between the Lotus and the Cobra R are for two cars available in the US. That is completely fair."
Can I compare my CRX with my '03 Cobra? I got them both here in the US :)

oh and because you threw that post in while i was typing this one - yeah i read the article... but i still dont like how you can come up with saying one car is superior because of an oddity or because of conditions... its just not something i agree with - i never came in and said i hate the magazine or that im all for it.. but i didn't too much care for that comparison because it seemed useless and they have had one hell of a bias (even tho they are working on it)

SlasherX

04-15-2002, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by msilvia
With regard to the test not being fair because the Elise wasn't stock, I'm pretty sure the basis was price. The modified Elise was roughly the same price as the Cobra. That was the basis for comparison. I'll avoid going off on a rant (which I so desperately want to go on) and just say that I wish more articles would look into how fast you can go and what your options are with $X, rather than just comparing similar styled cars. I wish mags like C&D would compare the Mustang GT with the RSX and Celica when they do comparos. I don't give a **** which wheels spin or how big the engine is. That's not how I shop for cars. If I've got $25k and I'm sports car shopping, I want to know what all my options are.

Also, my casual (and very occasional) reading of SCC seems to show that they're trying very hard to mature their image, to the point of being conspicuous. They used to be a little ricer mag, now they go off on how cool V8s are and how stupid Import Tuner readers are, and how they like their scrappy cars and dirty engine bays. I'm not sure I really buy it - it seems almost too deliberate - but they've changed a lot no matter how you look at it. If your impression of the mag is a few years old, you might give it another look.

Also, I hope that everyone weighing in with an opinion has really read the article. I thought they did a fair bit of gushing about the Cobra, and they mentioned time and time again that this was an odd and not very meaningful comparo. You can read it here (http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/archives/features/feature02_0502.shtml)

"Now we know some of you will hate us for this. But some of you will love us. Either way, this test will light up Internet forums and turn normal, peace-loving car enthusiasts into deranged defenders of their cause. Which is exactly what we like."

if it wasnt meaningful, why would they put it in print? isn't that sorta against the purpose of journalism?

see, i know most of you are intelligent individuals who do not believe everything you read...HOWEVER..a comparo like this..what does it accomplish? it just fuels the stereotypes out there and does nothing to advance our cause.

how many 16 year olds out tehre are going to pick up this magazine, see the lotus "elise" winning, and continue thinking anythign else out there is trash?

SlasherX

04-15-2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by ringthree
Slasher this is getting a little sad. It's not like they came out and said "HAHAHAHAHA The Lotus beat the Cobra R, take that Slasher" They did a comparsion between the two and the Lotus won. It's just one car. I think you should be proud that they had to use a modded car to beat the Cobra R (which isn't exactly "stock" but thats a whole different story). I think that someone maybe too attached to their car or manufacturer.

Also it's not like domestic mags treat imports well... stop being bitter, I always took you to be the smart domestic guy. Your just tarnishing your image.

my image is being tarnished? im just refuting an article thats biased, hows that against any image of mine?

they used incorrect facts abotu the cobra r in print...to me thats inexcusable whether its a cobra r or a gt-s..and we all know how gt-s owners get pissed at magazines when an article or review doesnt go their way, so i dont want to hear anything about my reaction to this.

t2000gts

04-15-2002, 02:02 PM

ok, i agree that review was bull****, but some of the guys on that board need to wake up as well

As for the handling, no **** the lotus handles better. it weighs half as much. road / autox courses highly favor small cars. it's just physics.

:rofl:

my friend has an old '87 corolla (not GTS, the FWD LE model) 5-speed, it weighs under 2300-2400lbs. i bet it would own everyone on a road course. or even an autox course.

SlasherX

04-15-2002, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by t2000gts
ok, i agree that review was bull****, but some of the guys on that board need to wake up as well

:rofl:

my friend has an old '87 corolla (not GTS, the FWD LE model) 5-speed, it weighs under 2300-2400lbs. i bet it would own everyone on a road course. or even an autox course.

ill still take my friends miata over that corolla...talk about handling on rails..sheesh that car amazed me.

ringthree

04-15-2002, 02:09 PM

What exactly were the incorrect facts?

msilvia

04-15-2002, 02:41 PM

if it wasnt meaningful, why would they put it in print? isn't that sorta against the purpose of journalism?

see, i know most of you are intelligent individuals who do not believe everything you read...HOWEVER..a comparo like this..what does it accomplish? it just fuels the stereotypes out there and does nothing to advance our cause.

how many 16 year olds out tehre are going to pick up this magazine, see the lotus "elise" winning, and continue thinking anythign else out there is trash?

It's a car rag, not the New York Times. Maybe meaningless was the wrong word. It was just a fun article, to see how two very different but similarly priced performance cars stack up against each other. I enjoyed reading it, but I don't think they were trying to really prove any important point.

Do you really give a **** what 16yo ricers think? You shouldn't. They're to be ignored. Anyone with an IQ would have picked up that SCC wasn't trying to make any important statement. Frankly, I don't want to miss out on reading an otherwise interesting article, and have my magazines watered down, so that a bunch of high schoolers don't get the wrong idea. **** them, I liked the article. Ignore the idiots. You could give every teenager a free subscription to the Mustang mag of your choice upon getting a license, and there would still be people too ignorant to learn anything. Lead a horse to water, etc, etc...

Besides, I'm still not convinced that the article was off. Maybe it was just a ****ty day for the strip, and the Elise would have run even faster had the CR been able to get it's normal time. I dunno enough about either car to say. But I don't think it makes a magazine trash if a bunch of guys more used to autoxing Integras can't launch the mother of all muscle cars. Isn't that the qualification least necessary to write for a compact mag?

Ntence99

04-15-2002, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by SlasherX

we all are now dumber because of your post...thank you.

So why does my comment make u feel dumber?

celichung

04-15-2002, 09:36 PM

lol i won't pay 55G for a b18, I mean dzam, b18 is a mass produced motor, anyway you put it, it's not a prestigious setup. I'd put my money on the cobra R when they line up at the light. Now if the Lotus has a proprietary motor in it, then and only then will it get respect from car enthusiasts, remember the Monster Miata? The Miata with the 454 in it? That Lotus is not a new concept, any car manufacturer can shove any motor into any car. It just looks bad when they need another motor from another car manufacturer because they are too inept at designing their own, why doesn't ford put a chevy block in their cobra R?

ringthree

04-15-2002, 09:50 PM

I generally agree with msilvia. It was just a fun comparison they said nothing bad about the Cobra R. I would still like to know the "misinformation" they used. Is it because they didn't get the times you liked? That seems a little silly when you are dismissing the "ricer rag" out of hand.

I would love to compare your car pedagree to SCC's lowest editor. You may not agree with them and I think that they did a pretty good job on conditioning the situation, which is all fine in my book. But your dismissal of the info provided just means you dont want to listen, not that you have found flaws with the article or those conducting the tests.

Also I have problems with the comparison of the Corba R as a "stock" car. I think thats a little silly. The Cobra R is a BEAST any way you cut it, and is a little better that your everyday mustang. As it was limited production also, wasn't it?

SlasherX

04-15-2002, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by ringthree
I generally agree with msilvia. It was just a fun comparison they said nothing bad about the Cobra R. I would still like to know the "misinformation" they used. Is it because they didn't get the times you liked? That seems a little silly when you are dismissing the "ricer rag" out of hand.

did i say it was a ricer rag? the facts they were wrong on were dyno numbers, and quartermile times..why would you test a car in those conditions and expect it to be valid worth a hell? the R dynoed almost FORTY RWHP LOWER than it should have..that sliek your GT-S having 120hp stock rather than 180

I would love to compare your car pedagree to SCC's lowest editor. You may not agree with them and I think that they did a pretty good job on conditioning the situation, which is all fine in my book. But your dismissal of the info provided just means you dont want to listen, not that you have found flaws with the article or those conducting the tests.

you're insulting me here because i disagree with their article, and you.. this tactic wouldnt make "lowest level" debate team

problems with the comparison of the Corba R as a "stock" car. I think thats a little silly. The Cobra R is a BEAST any way you cut it, and is a little better that your everyday mustang. As it was limited production also, wasn't it?

came from teh factory with a 5.4 sohc tuned motor. what motor did the lotus elise come from teh factory with? now what motor was in that elise?

i rest my case.

celichung

04-16-2002, 08:37 AM

Uh slasher the cobra uses the 5.4 DOHC modular motor, it's the same motor as the regular cobra except for the bore and stroke and a better intake manifold.

ringthree

04-16-2002, 09:24 AM

I think that you are having problems not because the information was incorrect, but because you dont like the numbers. Those are two different worlds. You should be able to recognize that.

As for my level of debate, I think this is the most ironic statment of all. I will let my debate pedgree speak for itself, my partner and I were ranked 17th in the nation my senior year in college, and I qualified or the National Debate Tournament four times. It may not mean anything to you, but I just thought it was funny.

At no point did I insult you, I insulted your reasoning. You didn't like the numbers so you dismissed them, thats fine, but dont make unfounded accusations that they information is incorrect.

Finally, my point about the Corba R is that IT IS THE COBRA R. This car alothough "stock" (meaning it was built from the facotry that why) but it is definitely a special limited edition car. The Elise is modded so what. This is a red herring for the reaaly problem. That you may be a little too attached to the car and manufacturer and I dont understand why.

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by celichung
Uh slasher the cobra uses the 5.4 DOHC modular motor, it's the same motor as the regular cobra except for the bore and stroke and a better intake manifold.

damn. you're right.. can't believe i missed that.

how you enjoying your nw cobra man?? :) congrats!

WillyK

04-16-2002, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by ringthree
Also I have problems with the comparison of the Corba R as a "stock" car. I think thats a little silly. The Cobra R is a BEAST any way you cut it, and is a little better that your everyday mustang. As it was limited production also, wasn't it?

Do you consider a Type R or an SI stock cars? They are both limited production and are better performance than the normal version of it. The Type R is built up from the factory, yet you and I bet everyone else still considers it stock. What is the difference with the Cobra R then?

If that is how it comes from the factory, then it's stock...period.

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by WillyK

Do you consider a Type R or an SI stock cars? They are both limited production and are better performance than the normal version of it. The Type R is built up from the factory, yet you and I bet everyone else still considers it stock. What is the difference with the Cobra R then?

If that is how it comes from the factory, then it's stock...period.

Exactly!

Cobra R's have been produced once for each platform since 93..

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by ringthree
I think that you are having problems not because the information was incorrect, but because you dont like the numbers. Those are two different worlds. You should be able to recognize that. [b]

i dont liek the numbers BECAUSE THEY ARE INCORRECT..period..there is no other way to cut it, the car did not dyno, or run where it should by almost FORTY RWHP!

As for my level of debate, I think this is the most ironic statment of all. I will let my debate pedgree speak for itself, my partner and I were ranked 17th in the nation my senior year in college, and I qualified or the National Debate Tournament four times. It may not mean anything to you, but I just thought it was funny.

*claps*

[b] no point did I insult you, I insulted your reasoning. You didn't like the numbers so you dismissed them, thats fine, but dont make unfounded accusations that they information is incorrect.

are you really going to lie to me now? do you think i am stupid?
"I'd love to compare your car pedagree to the lowest level editor of SCC"

now how is that NOT a cheap shot?

as for my "accusations" about the numbers being wrong, what do yuo want me to do, post dyno numbers, quartermile times from the 00 R to finally shut you up? my accusations aren't accusations, they are WHAT TEH DAMN CAR REALLY DOES AND HAS

Finally
, my point about the Corba R is that IT IS THE COBRA R. This car alothough "stock" (meaning it was built from the facotry that why) but it is definitely a special limited edition car. The Elise is modded so what. This is a red herring for the reaaly problem. That you may be a little too attached to the car and manufacturer and I dont understand why.

see above..this reasoning is a fallacy.

MikeUK

04-16-2002, 12:32 PM

Slasherx

So they put a US legal engine in the Elise instead of the Rover Engine. The UK Elise come with a 190bhp engine (Elise sport 190 hard top)

Would you have rather your Cobra have faced the GT1 version???

http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/competition/elisegt1.html

Road Model running at 350hp, Race modded at 550hp

That IMHO would be top of the range Elise v's top of the range Mustang.

An intresting comparison. Both available from the Factory.

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by MikeUK
Slasherx

So they put a US legal engine in the Elise instead of the Rover Engine. The UK Elise come with a 190bhp engine (Elise sport 190 hard top)

Would you have rather your Cobra have faced the GT1 version???

http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/competition/elisegt1.html

Road Model running at 350hp, Race modded at 550hp

That IMHO would be top of the range Elise v's top of the range Mustang.

An intresting comparison. Both available from the Factory.

got price?

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 12:45 PM

two things:

1. the cobra R numbers at the dyno are ridiculously low and so are the times they got with it.

2. your'e comparing a EXOTIC with a Type R motor stuffed in it vs. a MUSTANG..

sheesh

MikeUK

04-16-2002, 12:48 PM

So now you wish to compare Price for Price??

What is the US dealer price for a Cobra R. I'll find the nearest Lotus model for comparision. This way we should put some balance on this debate.

The GT1 is around $645,000 I think.

MikeUK

04-16-2002, 12:51 PM

Slasher I'm afraid to me as Brit an Elise is not an exotic, Its far too common, my old boss in the UK had one, and had I still been over there It would be my car of choice.

However I would accept that my referance to a GT1 is an exotic.

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 12:52 PM

55 grand with only 300 made and sold to people with a racing license.

whoel point of the SCC article was price vs. price but the numbers for the R they had are wrong, period.

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by MikeUK
Slasher I'm afraid to me as Brit an Elise is not an exotic, Its far too common, my old boss in the UK had one, and had I still been over there It would be my car of choice.

However I would accept that my referance to a GT1 is an exotic.

......

Lotus is a marquee name in the U.S.

MikeUK

04-16-2002, 01:07 PM

But, The R was wrong so might the Elise be too.....

Or do you really think they 'frigged' the figures to make the R look bad.

Is that the message your trying to get across.

On a REAL race track (not a straight) after a few laps with equal drivers which do you think will be out in front.

Excuse my ignorance but whats a 'marquee name' in the U.S. ? I really dont know what that means.??

ringthree

04-16-2002, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by WillyK

Do you consider a Type R or an SI stock cars? They are both limited production and are better performance than the normal version of it. The Type R is built up from the factory, yet you and I bet everyone else still considers it stock. What is the difference with the Cobra R then?

If that is how it comes from the factory, then it's stock...period.

I'm just saying it's pretty weak for the Cobra R to hide behind a "but it's just stock" claim.

Type R is much closer to the Cobra R in what I am talking about. The Si is mass production, basically. But this is besides the point.

ringthree

04-16-2002, 01:25 PM

Slasher, I wasn't insulting you by saying SCC editors know more about cars than you. I was stating that SCC editors know more about cars than you. It's pretty simple. You believe they get incorrect numbers. I believe that they got the numbers that they got. Just because the numbers dont fit into what you "perceive" they should be doesn't make the numbers incorrect. I'm just repeating myself now.

Just because we are never going to agree on this, doesn't mean that we are equally right...

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by MikeUK
But, The R was wrong so might the Elise be too.....

Or do you really think they 'frigged' the figures to make the R look bad.

Is that the message your trying to get across.

On a REAL race track (not a straight) after a few laps with equal drivers which do you think will be out in front.

Excuse my ignorance but whats a 'marquee name' in the U.S. ? I really dont know what that means.??

marquee name woudl be something along the lines of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc.

its possible the elise's numbers were incorrect as well, however that doesnt change my argument of the damned facts that the R does NOT dyno that low in real life...or run that slow a time.

celichung

04-16-2002, 07:01 PM

t2000gts

04-16-2002, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by SlasherX

ill still take my friends miata over that corolla...talk about handling on rails..sheesh that car amazed me.

haha, i was being sarcastic. the corolla couldn't make a sloping highway turn without squealing it's tires and feeling like it was gonna roll over.

celichung

04-16-2002, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by SlasherX

damn. you're right.. can't believe i missed that.

how you enjoying your nw cobra man?? :) congrats! Yeah it's easy to mix the the 4.6's up, man the Cobra is wickedly fast, Y'know what slasher? I don't buy into the LS1 hype, I mean the 2001 Cobra and the LS1 F bodies run around the same 1/4 mile. In all reality I think SVT came out with a comparable vehicle with the F bodies and it doesn't look like a upside down boat.

ringthree

04-16-2002, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by celichung
Yeah it's easy to mix the the 4.6's up, man the Cobra is wickedly fast, Y'know what slasher? I don't buy into the LS1 hype, I mean the 2001 Cobra and the LS1 F bodies run around the same 1/4 mile. In all reality I think SVT came out with a comparable vehicle with the F bodies and it doesn't look like a upside down boat.

Ok chiming in with my complete ignorance on american muscle. I thought that Mustangs were F (fox) bodies, and I thought the LS1 is an engine on the Trans Am. On which cars do you find them both? Help clear some of this up for me, I would really like to know. Thanks.

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by ringthree

Ok chiming in with my complete ignorance on american muscle. I thought that Mustangs were F (fox) bodies, and I thought the LS1 is an engine on the Trans Am. On which cars do you find them both? Help clear some of this up for me, I would really like to know. Thanks.

fox body was the mustang body style from 1979-1993

LS1 is GM's v8 engine used in the trans am, camaro, and formula(?) since 1998..GM has been underrating the hell out of them ever since they came out.

Celihung--- unfortunately, its not BS..the LS1 stock for stock is still faster..but its close enough to potentially be a drivers race, and or within a couple tenths of each other...do me a favor and slap some 4.10's or 4.30's in that cobra..

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by celichung
Oh god Mike, here we go again, it's just a friggin magazine, personally 55K$ for a b18 is a little steep regardless what type of go cart chassis you stuff it in.

good point!

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by t2000gts

haha, i was being sarcastic. the corolla couldn't make a sloping highway turn without squealing it's tires and feeling like it was gonna roll over.

lol...sounds like my car when it was stock:)

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by ringthree
Slasher, I wasn't insulting you by saying SCC editors know more about cars than you. I was stating that SCC editors know more about cars than you. It's pretty simple. You believe they get incorrect numbers. I believe that they got the numbers that they got. Just because the numbers dont fit into what you "perceive" they should be doesn't make the numbers incorrect. I'm just repeating myself now.

Just because we are never going to agree on this, doesn't mean that we are equally right... ]

my perception is nothing more than the truth about the Cobra R. you've yourself admitted your ignorance over american muscle and it indeed does show in this thread. Here are some examples of dyno numbers for you to look over.

This Cobra R got 374rwhp:
http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/appreciation2001.htm

Here is a Quote from a 93 Cobra Owner(Blown93Snake on MW.com):

"MM&FF dyno'd one at 375rwhp w/ almost no miles on it.
There is a guy here in the bay area that I talk too, and he brings his '00 R to cruises here and there...

He put the offroad bassani setup on it, w/ a dyno tune, and it made 414rwhp.

Tell SCC to lick my nutz.
"
Here are quotes off SVTPeformance.com:

Terry Moenich "The Cobra R made 378.8 Ho and 387.9 Torque With a 11.8 A/F ratio."

JoeJ "My 2000 Cobra R dynoed 382 HP and 394 torque."

Lemme dig up more, this isn't easy as most are used for open track events in more serious forms of racing than drag.

ringthree

04-16-2002, 09:14 PM

Your still missing my point Slasher, and my ignorance of engine and body codes doesn't really have much to do with it.

celichung

04-16-2002, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by SlasherX

fox body was the mustang body style from 1979-1993

LS1 is GM's v8 engine used in the trans am, camaro, and formula(?) since 1998..GM has been underrating the hell out of them ever since they came out.

Celihung--- unfortunately, its not BS..the LS1 stock for stock is still faster..but its close enough to potentially be a drivers race, and or within a couple tenths of each other...do me a favor and slap some 4.10's or 4.30's in that cobra..

lol slasherX, I was thinking about 4.56s with solid rear end....

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 09:44 PM

that would rule..but im not sure if you want that much gear in a daily driver? or is the celi going to be teh DD?

go 8.8" with upgraded splines, c clips, and clutch packs..then get a full k member front setup with coilovers and a rear suspension by Jim Wolf

get that chasis ready for drag first before you put the power into it....with the amount of power that motor is able to produce, youll far exceed teh stock suspension in a damned hurry..

excellent car man..im proud of ya:)

celichung

04-16-2002, 09:47 PM

celi will be the daily driver :burnout:

SlasherX

04-16-2002, 09:49 PM

good choice:)

now before you touch that car i want some baseline dyno numbers, ok?

some 01's have been having pinging problems above 4k..and there hasnt been a fix for it yet through any aftermarket chips..hell tuenrs have tried to fix it and havent been able to,even on blank chips..so i want to make sure you dont have that problem first..cuz if you do..i have no idea WTF to do to fix it.

WillyK

04-17-2002, 07:02 AM

I think the biggest gripe Slasher and myself have is that they just did a piss poor job with the Cobra, not that it lost to the Elise. I could care less that it lost to it, I would actually expect the Cobra to get whipped on a roadcourse by that Elise. It just seems that they didn't put their full effort into the Cobra, by choice or by ignorance.

MikeUK

04-17-2002, 07:24 AM

If that's the real Gripe, then I have to apologise to you and Slasher.

celichung

04-17-2002, 08:12 AM

Like I said, 55K$ is a lot of money to be paying for a B18.

MikeUK

04-17-2002, 08:26 AM

That however is a little silly when you consider the times a B18 can produce in a Lotus.
The $55K is for a Lotus !!

I think $55K for a Mustang is crazy, But I'm Brit and I expect a car to handle.

SlasherX

04-17-2002, 12:49 PM

WillyK hit it on the head..i don't care that it lost..every car loses..its just hwo it lost that gets to me, cuz i know the cars capable of so much more.

mike--that Mustang DOES handle..compared to the viper and corvette it runs right with them aroudn most any track there is.

MikeUK

04-17-2002, 01:02 PM

Slasher..

I should have been clearer, But for me as a 'Brit' I love to drive my cars fast around tight country lanes, and handling is the top criterion under those circumstances.
No disrespect to a Mustang in its world, but it doesn't fit well in mine.
F

ringthree

04-17-2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by SlasherX
WillyK hit it on the head..i don't care that it lost..every car loses..its just hwo it lost that gets to me, cuz i know the cars capable of so much more.

This is a much better statememt Slasher and one I agree with. It lost once. Doesn't mean it would happen again especially under different conditions. This doesn't mean that their figures were incorrect or that the magazine is against the Cobra R.

celichung

04-17-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by WillyK
I think the biggest gripe Slasher and myself have is that they just did a piss poor job with the Cobra, not that it lost to the Elise. I could care less that it lost to it, I would actually expect the Cobra to get whipped on a roadcourse by that Elise. It just seems that they didn't put their full effort into the Cobra, by choice or by ignorance. LOL, yeah they purposely granny shifted, missed the power band on the cobra,and spun all of 1st and 2nd gear. That is the only way I can see those numbers being put down. Actually you know what, the cobra powerband on my 01 Cobra, it makes peak power at roughly 1k below redline and it makes max torque at 5K. The redline on the 4.6 DOHC is 7 grand, so in essense if the guys at scc did run the cobra to redline and shifted granny style and like I said, let the rear wheels light up then it is very likely that they got those numbers, but who da phuck knows how they got those numbers.

msilvia

04-17-2002, 09:25 PM

Question for the mustang guys on the thread.

Just how out of place, if at all, is a 3400lb stang on a twisty rural two-lane like what MikeUK describes? I'm curious, especially about how the IRS Cobra feels in that kind of environment.

SlasherX

04-17-2002, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by msilvia
Question for the mustang guys on the thread.

Just how out of place, if at all, is a 3400lb stang on a twisty rural two-lane like what MikeUK describes? I'm curious, especially about how the IRS Cobra feels in that kind of environment.

ill let you knwo when i get mine :)

celichung

04-17-2002, 11:22 PM

celichung

04-20-2002, 02:27 PM

TTT, lets talk about this some more.

SlasherX

04-20-2002, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by celichung
TTT, lets talk about this some more.

where you wanna start? hehe..the dead horse has arisen!

celichung

04-21-2002, 08:32 PM

He he he, hey man, your project 99, hey I heard they snap drive shafts like the celica's misshift. I also heard that the reason why they snap is because of the wheel hop, so if you get a IRS brace, IRS bushings and some good springs you can minimize the hop thus reducing the strain on the half shafts.

CheezeFrog

04-21-2002, 09:10 PM

I agree with SlasherX. Those guys who did the driving can NOT drive, as evidenced by the crappy times for the Lotus they posted. Eek...

SlasherX

04-21-2002, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by celichung
He he he, hey man, your project 99, hey I heard they snap drive shafts like the celica's misshift. I also heard that the reason why they snap is because of the wheel hop, so if you get a IRS brace, IRS bushings and some good springs you can minimize the hop thus reducing the strain on the half shafts.

halfshafts dont snap, the CV joints fail, but they're al one piece..so you upgrade teh halfshafts and you're fine.

the IRS is good til you start cutting below 1.6 60 foots on slicks..then itll fail

for me, i dont think thatll ever be a problem. :)

GKN halfshafts
irs brace bushings
griggs delrin bushings

one happy cobra owner :)

celichung

04-21-2002, 10:39 PM

also dont forget the FRPP 4.10s

SlasherX

04-21-2002, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by celichung
also dont forget the FRPP 4.10s

dude, you dont know how ive been debating on 4.10's or 4.30's..

4.10's would be perfect if i went with a blower..which ive recently strongly considered after seeing the 400+rwhp numbers on just 10psi...but then again..320hp mounted to 4.30's would be enough for 12's with minimal mods....for a street car, do you really need more?

"problem" :rofl:with the cobra is that it can make all teh power in the world that you need, and comes with more than enough to begin with..so you dont really even have to mod it :)

Takeoff

04-22-2002, 08:50 AM

Let these fools believe what they want. If they think the Cobra R is so fast that it can beat the lotus, let them be ignorant. The car got beat and they are mad even though the article was not biased. They said nothing bad about the mustang and only did a fair comparison. I know the magazine is dedicated to sports compact cars so why are mustang lovers even reading the **** in their articles. Go spend your time reading magazine article that tell you what you wanna hear, "that mustangs are unbeatable". Stop bitching on a celica board.

SlasherX

04-22-2002, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Takeoff
Let these fools believe what they want. If they think the Cobra R is so fast that it can beat the lotus, let them be ignorant. The car got beat and they are mad even though the article was not biased. They said nothing bad about the mustang and only did a fair comparison. I know the magazine is dedicated to sports compact cars so why are mustang lovers even reading the **** in their articles. Go spend your time reading magazine article that tell you what you wanna hear, "that mustangs are unbeatable". Stop bitching on a celica board.

where were you 2 weeks ago when i actually cared about a response?