Honda Develops New 1.8l i-VTEC Engine

[Motor]

Honda Develops New 1.8l i-VTEC Engine: Superior Fuel Economy and Powerful Performance Achieved With Valve Timing Control That Responds to Driving Conditions

Tokyo, Japan, July 5, 2005 - (JCN Newswire) - Honda Motor Co., Ltd. (LSE: 7267q) today announced that it has developed a new 1.8l i-VTEC engine to be introduced this fall in the new Civic that achieves both more powerful performance and improved fuel economy. The engine employs an intelligent VTEC system that switches the valve timing for maximum efficiency during startup and acceleration to achieve powerful, torquey performance, then delays intake valve closure timing during cruising and other low-load conditions for improved fuel economy. Use of the valve timing control system results in off-the-line acceleration performance equivalent to a 2.0-liter engine, fuel economy approximately 6% better than the current 1.7-liter Civic engine, making it one of the world's most efficient 1.8-liter engine designs. During cruising, the new engine achieves particularly high fuel economy, on a par with that of a 1.5-liter engine.
Under low-load conditions on conventional engine, the throttle valve is normally partly closed to control the intake volume of the fuel-air mixture. During this time, pumping losses are incurred due to intake resistance, and this is one factor that leads to reduced engine efficiency. With the i-VTEC engine, however, intake valve closure timing is delayed to control the intake volume of the air-fuel mixture, allowing the throttle valve to remain wide open even under low-load conditions for a major reduction in pumping losses of up to 16%. Combined with comprehensive friction-reducing measures, this results in a significant increase in fuel efficiency for the engine itself.

A DBW (Drive By Wire) system provides high-precision control over the throttle valve while the valve timing is being changed over, ensuring smooth driving performance that leaves the driver unaware of any torque fluctuations. Other innovations include a variable-length intake manifold that delivers optimum inertia effect to further improve intake efficiency and piston oil jets that cool the pistons to suppress engine knock, for powerful torque even at rpm ranges typical in normal driving. The new engine delivers a high level of performance, with maximum output of 103kW (140PS) and maximum torque of 174Nom (17.7kgom). It also delivers cleaner emission performance, employing a 2-bed catalytic converter positioned immediately after the manifold and high-precision air-fuel ratio control to achieve emission levels 75% below 2005 Japanese government standards (based on Honda in-house testing).

In addition, lower block construction resulting in a more rigid engine frame, aluminum rocker arms, high-strength cracked connecting rods, a narrow, silent cam chain, and other innovations make the engine more compact and lightweight. It is both lighter and shorter overall than the current Civic 1.7l engine, and quieter as well. *All values according to Honda in-house calculations

Specifications for the 1.8l i-VTEC engine

Engine type and number Water-cooled in-line 4-cylinder of cylinders Displacement (cc) 1,799 Bore x Stroke (mm) 81.0 x 87.3 Max. Output (kW [PS]/rpm) 103 [140]/6,300 Max. Torque (Nm [kgm]/rpm) 174 [17.7]/4,300 Compression Ratio 10.5

*All values according to Honda in-house calculations
http://response.jp/issue/2005/0705/article72232_1.images/90037.jpg

Discuss.

[RookieGTS]

oh great... now whats next :o:

[celicajonz]

........rasberry

[ringthree]

Yawn. Its just a replacement for their current standard engine. Nothing surpising or shocking.

[RookieGTS]

It's funny the way they describe it like it's the big and most impressing thing that Honda has created. :violin:

[Gas-n-Grease]

most fuel efficient 1.8L yet huh? I dont see a MPG rating on it, but with all that work and technology on it, it better do better than an Echo. Cuz engine specs looks much like our Celica GT.

[DYI01]

The only thing I see that is great is the fact that is has great fuel economy, super low emissions, and it is light weight. I like the design of the throttle body and how they can control the i-VTEC to keep the throttle wide open yet keep the loads down to reduce pumping losses. It is still a SOHC motor though.

[Tikked Again]

Strange that it's a single cam...one would think they'd have more control with a DOHC

[Bi-Mon-Sci-Fi-Con]

omg is just a honduh[/toyota fanboi on this board]

[recneps]

most fuel efficient 1.8L yet huh? I dont see a MPG rating on it, but with all that work and technology on it, it better do better than an Echo. Cuz engine specs looks much like our Celica GT.

haha yeah because the engine is going to go miles on its own.

they dont rate a engine by MPG only cars. hahahahaha.

[recneps]

it just another d series.

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

converts to a 138 HP and 128 lb/ft

not very impressive to me :wtf:

[SafeCloud]

Good news is it's drive by wire

Can we take a hint that they'll be trying to make aftermarket for this engine thus creating an easier availability for those drive by wire celicas?

Not like it means much to me--but just a thought that since they'd be making research for it, i'm sure others can duplicate it.

Maybe we'll even start to see more aftermarket (Yes, this is a very liberal comment towards it... heh and hopeful :p )

[Bi-Mon-Sci-Fi-Con]

Good news is it's drive by wire

Can we take a hint that they'll be trying to make aftermarket for this engine thus creating an easier availability for those drive by wire celicas?

Not like it means much to me--but just a thought that since they'd be making research for it, i'm sure others can duplicate it.

Maybe we'll even start to see more aftermarket (Yes, this is a very liberal comment towards it... heh and hopeful :p )


There is tons of aftermarket for the turbo subarus ie, wrx, sti, legacy gt.. they are dbw.

[Pulsar1]

converts to a 138 HP and 128 lb/ft

not very impressive to me :wtf:

Is that seriously what it converts too?

[fievel28]

who cares, it's a honda.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

There are tons of SOHC civics on the streets today that would embarass almost anyone here.

[vtspykez]

nothing special....

[jlitman]

converts to a 138 HP and 128 lb/ft

not very impressive to me :wtf:

Is that seriously what it converts too?

Yes.

140 PS = 138.08 horsepower
174 Nm = 128.34 lb/ft torque

(values calculated at http://www.magtrol.com/support/calculators.htm)

Try again, Honda :thumbdown

[Gas-n-Grease]

who cares, it's a honda.
don't be dissin' Honda now. Honda is a great company... don't get me wrong, i would rather stick to a GT-S than a GS-R but Honda is an innovator in the manufacturer's world. I don't like Honda's just because of the majority of Honda owners are total idiots.

[CreepingJeff]

honda > toyota

[jonnyess]

it stinks...

{bugs bunny}

[EasyC]

There are tons of SOHC civics on the streets today that would embarass almost anyone here.


lol, aftermarket support. Show me one B series motor with that will embarass a 2zz, mod for mod......Meaning they can't use cams or Tb's or anything like that....

It just seems they do what they always do and that's come out with yesterdays technology....(exception=s2000)

[volcomrider6]

^^^^^^
b18c, and who do you think came out w/ variable valve timing? And the fact that almost all b series parts are interchangable is impressive. You cant just slap a 2zz head on to a 1zz.

[EasyC]

^^^^^^
b18c, and who do you think came out w/ variable valve timing? And the fact that almost all b series parts are interchangable is impressive. You cant just slap a 2zz head on to a 1zz.


again aftermarket support. However I've never seen a B18 anything make 10whp off an axle back. I'm speaking with equal mods. Interchanging means nothing. Toyota had VVT before honda. They just didn't market any vehicles over here with it.

[Chazza]

A max of 103kw [140 HP] at 6,300 RPM?? This is not "Powerful Performance". I'd rather take the the 2ZZGE.

I would have congratulated 160 kw out of a N/A 1.8L engine. But 103 kw is yesterdays news.

[Blue Bomber]

^^^^^^
And the fact that almost all b series parts are interchangable is impressive. Just like the fact that most interior parts on GM cars are interchangeable is impressive. No wait, that's just pathetic. :chuckles:

[volcomrider6]

again aftermarket support. However I've never seen a B18 anything make 10whp off an axle back. I'm speaking with equal mods. Interchanging means nothing. Toyota had VVT before honda. They just didn't market any vehicles over here with it.
Honda had vtec technology in the US by 91. If toyota did have it, why'd we have to wait 9 more years to get it? The B18c5 stock makes 195 hp to the 2zz's 180hp. You cant knock honda's ability to find aftermarket support just because they're easy to work with. And if the 2zz makes a couple more hp off a mod, its because honda was more efficient from the factory. And didnt Toyota outsource the 2zz motor to yamaha? And people are talking about Honda not doing anything new, since when has toyota shocked us with anything new? The 2zz was 3yrs behind the b18c5, and the is300 is using a supra motor. Toyota has flat out given up to honda, subaru, and mitsu with bringing something bigger and better to the US.

[volcomrider6]

Just like the fact that most interior parts on GM cars are interchangeable is impressive. No wait, that's just pathetic. :chuckles:
Engine interchangeability is impressive. It must really suck for honda guys to be able to drop a b16 head onto a b18b bottom, then for it to use the same mounts as their previous motor. In a matter of a couple of hrs, u can have a 13 second car. Thats really pathetic. And if we talk about build quality, i've had 10x more problems w/ my celica falling apart then my si or gsr.

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

Honda had vtec technology in the US by 91. If toyota did have it, why'd we have to wait 9 more years to get it? The B18c5 stock makes 195 hp to the 2zz's 180hp. You cant knock honda's ability to find aftermarket support just because they're easy to work with. And if the 2zz makes a couple more hp off a mod, its because honda was more efficient from the factory. And didnt Toyota outsource the 2zz motor to yamaha? And people are talking about Honda not doing anything new, since when has toyota shocked us with anything new? The 2zz was 3yrs behind the b18c5, and the is300 is using a supra motor. Toyota has flat out given up to honda, subaru, and mitsu with bringing something bigger and better to the US.


Actually, I've seen it somewhere in some article that toyota has come out with variable valve time in the 80's (or maybe that was mitsu). Honda has just made it more famous.

Toyota had help from Yamaha to produce an engine capable of safe high RPM output. The VVT was all Toyota. It was actually used more in the Lexus line befor Toyotas cars were equipped.

Now on some simple bolt on on Acura's and Honda's give BIG gains. Funny how Hondas are a little more efficient from the factory. More reason to say why they have a bigger market for aftermarket parts??? The 2zz is just a little too efficient in the design. However since it is one of their only very few true effcient high output NA motors ( rated @ 100 horses per liter) how many true effcient high output NA motors does Honda have? 4 OUT OF HOW MANY? Civic Si, Integra Type R, RSX type-S, S2000. Your prob wondering bout the prelude but it delivers only 190hp at 2.0 liter of discplacement rated 95hp/liter. And then theres the WHP where the true effciency lies. I'm not crappin on Honda or Toyota, but do give Toyota a little more credit. I'm giving them props for starting completely from scratch and delivering a remarkable performer out of nowhere. Honda is just improving on earlier designs.

I believe Toyota just leaning toward the more economic family oriented market and Honda just wants to maintain their lead in the NA performance with their variable valve timing. But, you never know, Toyota might bring on a supercar.

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

In a matter of a couple of hrs, u can have a 13 second car. Thats really pathetic. And if we talk about build quality, i've had 10x more problems w/ my celica falling apart then my si or gsr.

I have a lot of freinds that have more problmes with there Si's, GSR's, and Type S's, then I have with my GTS. I have 150+ miles on my GTS, no major problems or issues just standard maintainace, and no parts replaced, all still original and still runs strong. Maybe a lack of good maintainence? Toyota has some of the best build quality these days, have you noticed they tend to keep there value a little more then Honda now??

Matter of hours, you can get a 13 Celica. Pathetic? I think not.

[volcomrider6]

^^^^
All I was trying to do was give honda a little respect. There are a lot of idots (on both sides), and i get tired of all the bashing from people that dont know what they're talking about.
But maybe Im the only one who has heard of lift bolt problems, or shift gates being too narrow, or the recalls i've gotten from toyota saying my headlights arent in compliance, and my brake cylinder might be faulty. Or the all the squeeking parts in the trunk. The only time I hear about problems w/ hondas are when idots give the motor a 150shot of nitrous, or beat the living crap out of them. I dont see any celicas w/ 100k miles at the drag strip that havent put in a new tranny or motor. And if u talk about resale, Im having a hard time getting 10k for my 00 gts, where as insurance gave me 16k for a 99 gsr w/ 65k miles last yr. You talk about only 4 hondas have over 100hp per liter ( You forgot the nsx, del sol vtec, and civic type r). Maybe you can tell me how many toyota has? And maybe they started completely from scratch, but 10 yrs after honda did. Not to mention honda created 9k redlines w/o yamaha, and were able to create a powerband much bigger than 2k..And there are what, maybe 3 or 4 guys running n/a in the 13s in a celica? Where as 13 second honda hatches are a dime a dozen. And whether or not honda came out w/ vvt first (which im almost 100% certain they did), they were the first ones that could mass produce it effectively. Im not bashing toyota, but just playing devil's advocate. All the "honda sucks" on these boards gets old.

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

I agree with your points. Civic type r and del sol si are pretty much the same engine, slight changes in specs... slight......completely forgot the NSX. Have you ever checked hondas TSB's? The list are as long as toyota's. Resale value....wait till the Celica is no longer being sold at dealerships (as brand new), value will go up. Integras (GSR's) are discontinued therfor worth more. VVTL-i is more advanced then VTEC, lol (just playin devil's advocate).

BTW...honda got there help from there street bike division when developing the high RPM powerbands for their bottom ends. I'm sure if toyota made street bikes they wouldnt go to yamaha.

but the main point is....honda has good ****.......toyota has good ****, there pretty much the same to me. I'd still buy a GSR and I'd still buy a GTS. There pretty much equal in ways of performance.

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

Where as 13 second honda hatches are a dime a dozen.


Throw a 2ZZ into a MR2, there's your dime a dozen. I only see 13 sec civic HB with engine swap like a b16 or b18. And there pretty much semi gutted a light as hell

[EasyC]

I believe the N/A supra motor utilizes a vvt system as well. That was out well before 2000.

Toyota had the technology years before 91. I wish I still had the documentation about that. I'll have to search for it.

As far as reliability is concerned. I had a 2000 Celica GT-S that was in my possession from 35,600 miles all the way to 98,700. The thing was constantly tracked, misshifted once by a friend of mine, and cut in half (behind the drivers seat). I didn't have one squeak or squeal. I had ONE rattle from a screw I dropped in the dash but was too lazy to retrieve.

On the other hand, after that celica got totaled, I bought a black 2000 GT-S. The timing chain blew apart on the highway 3 weeks into owning it (hadn't even tracked or really pushed the car at all yet). It had 65,300 miles on the engine. It ended up ripping the exhaust cam gear off the shaft, smashing all the valves atleast 2 degrees and scorching the piston tops. However for the sake of your argument, the shop that was repairing vehicle had 2 b16's with holes in the block and a b18 with a messed up block from pre-ignition. None of those motors had been raced either, all with less than 100K on the odo. And I won't even begin to bring up my friend who owned a prelude and went thru 1 h22 and 2 h23's. Or my friend's mom with a 98 civic (8x,xxx K) who's car won't start, even after replacing the starter and battery. I also did a brake job on her civic and had the delight of replacing her ebrake cable on the passenger side which was frozen causing wheel lock at all times. but I will bring up my old 94 corolla. This engine has 120+ K miles on it and was misshifted by a friend of mine at 122K (8500+ rpm where redline is 6250). The car sat for 1.5 years and after an oil change started up fine. To this day it still runs fine and never required any fixing from the misshift. The only thing I replaced on it was the alternator and battery which some will argue as standard maintenance at 100K.

Regardless of any arguments here there will be a plethora of people on both sides of the spectrum. Honda is a great car and I would own had toyota not existed, but the point of my argument is honda didn't engineer this wonderful powerful 1.8L out of non existant technology. It has been around for quite a while and they tend just modify existing design rather than engineer something from the ground up. The obvious exception is the S2000 motor.

[WillyK]

wait till the Celica is no longer being sold at dealerships (as brand new), value will go up.

No it won't.

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

No it won't.

yes it will

[EasyC]

wait till the Celica is no longer being sold at dealerships (as brand new), value will go up.

No it won't.


Tell that to excise and insurance....

[WillyK]

No it won't.

yes it will

Last time I checked, the Prelude nor GSR were increasing in value. Same with the Supra and it's been discontinued for quite awhile.

Check kbb.com and see for yourself.

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

not increase value but hold it

[WillyK]

not increase value but hold it

The Celica's value isn't holding as it is. A 2000 Civic Si with comparable miles is worth more than a 00 GTS. On average, an SI cost about $4k less than a GTS when brand new.

[EasyC]

not increase value but hold it

The Celica's value isn't holding as it is. A 2000 Civic Si with comparable miles is worth more than a 00 GTS. On average, an SI cost about $4k less than a GTS when brand new.


Willy, Cost and Value are two different things. I can't find a 94 supra for less than 17K, its value is 8.

[WillyK]

not increase value but hold it

The Celica's value isn't holding as it is. A 2000 Civic Si with comparable miles is worth more than a 00 GTS. On average, an SI cost about $4k less than a GTS when brand new.


Willy, Cost and Value are two different things. I can't find a 94 supra for less than 17K, its value is 8.

Thanks for that brilliant insight.

[EasyC]

anytime Willy :thumbup:

[eurotoyz]

honda was first to do variable valve timing. read it in a scc(?) mag about the prelude when it was discontinued. Prelude had first vtec (and then nsx) and had first rear wheel assisted steering.

a b18 mod for mod will push a honda faster than a 2zz toyota.

[gttoy]

^^^^
All I was trying to do was give honda a little respect. There are a lot of idots (on both sides), and i get tired of all the bashing from people that dont know what they're talking about.
But maybe Im the only one who has heard of lift bolt problems, or shift gates being too narrow, or the recalls i've gotten from toyota saying my headlights arent in compliance, and my brake cylinder might be faulty. Or the all the squeeking parts in the trunk. The only time I hear about problems w/ hondas are when idots give the motor a 150shot of nitrous, or beat the living crap out of them. I dont see any celicas w/ 100k miles at the drag strip that havent put in a new tranny or motor. And if u talk about resale, Im having a hard time getting 10k for my 00 gts, where as insurance gave me 16k for a 99 gsr w/ 65k miles last yr. You talk about only 4 hondas have over 100hp per liter ( You forgot the nsx, del sol vtec, and civic type r). Maybe you can tell me how many toyota has? And maybe they started completely from scratch, but 10 yrs after honda did. Not to mention honda created 9k redlines w/o yamaha, and were able to create a powerband much bigger than 2k..And there are what, maybe 3 or 4 guys running n/a in the 13s in a celica? Where as 13 second honda hatches are a dime a dozen. And whether or not honda came out w/ vvt first (which im almost 100% certain they did), they were the first ones that could mass produce it effectively. Im not bashing toyota, but just playing devil's advocate. All the "honda sucks" on these boards gets old.

"Not to mention honda created 9k redlines w/o yamaha,"

Toyota IS yamaha~They own the majority(85% I think) of the company..

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

Toyota IS yamaha~They own the majority(85% I think) of the company..


Cool...never knew Toyota owned Yamaha.

a b18 mod for mod will push a honda faster than a 2zz toyota.

Not if the B18 is in anything else but the GSR (non type R). Mod for mod against the B18 GSR it's pretty damn close. There are no HUGE wins between the two. I've seen GSR's lose by a fender and GTS lose by a fender length. Although around here, GTS's are known to be GSR killers.

[Bi-Mon-Sci-Fi-Con]

"TOYOTA BUYS STAKE IN YAMAHA In an effort to strengthen its engine development, Toyota will buy a five percent stake in Yamaha, the world's second largest motorcycle manufacturer. Execs from both companies said they will work together on engine development, motorsports and boats. The new relationship will allow Toyota to learn from Yamaha's experience in Formula One racing, an area Toyota plans to enter in 2001."

5% is a far cry from "owning" or "being" yamaha.

[volcomrider6]

Now im just waiting for the article that shows toyota was the first w/ variable valve timing.

[Bi-Mon-Sci-Fi-Con]

"Honda was the first to offer what it called VTEC. VTEC stands for Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control. It basically uses two sets of camshaft profiles-one for low and mid-range rpm and one for high rpm operation. An electronic switch shifts between the two profiles at a specific rpm to increase peak horsepower and improve torque. As a VTEC driver, you can both hear and feel the change when the VTEC "kicks in" at higher rpm levels to improve performance. While this system does not offer continuously variable valve timing, it can make the most of high rpm operation while still providing solid drivability at lower rpm levels. Honda is already working on a three-step VTEC system that will further improve performance and efficiency across the engine rpm range.

Toyota saw the success Honda was having with VTEC (from both a functional and marketing standpoint) but decided to go a different route. Instead of the on/off system that VTEC employs, Toyota decided it wanted a continuously variable system that would maximize valve timing throughout the rpm range. Dubbed VVTi for Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (Is this a dig at Honda, suggesting their system isn't intelligent?), Toyota uses a hydraulic rather than mechanical system to alter the intake cam's phasing. The main difference from VTEC is that VVTi maintains the same cam profile and alters only when the valves open and close in relation to engine speed. Also, this system works only on the intake valve while VTEC has two settings for the intake and the exhaust valves, which makes for a more dramatic gain in peak power than VVTi can claim."

So for those who can't read, vtec != vvti. So it could be said that Toyota had infititely variable valve timing before Honda did, but Honda had multiple cam profile valve timing a good decade before toyota. The 2zz is the only production Toyota engine I am aware of to have multiple cam profiles like what a Honda "VTEC" engine has.

[gts_rosh]

Yes.

140 PS = 138.08 horsepower
174 Nm = 128.34 lb/ft torque

(values calculated at http://www.magtrol.com/support/calculators.htm)

Try again, Honda :thumbdown

Wow Honda... so now I can get a sporty level civic with a 1.8L SOHC i-Vtec with 138HP, whereas before I could only get a 1.7L SOHC Vtec with 127HP...huge improvement there! This new engine really blows.

And I'm willing to bet that the all new 8th GEN civic powered by this engine, will be heavier too ... there goes all the gains.

[Barabaika]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

History

The first experimentation with variable valve timing and lift was performed by General Motors. GM was actually interested in throttling the intake valves in order to reduce emissions. This was done by minimizing the amount of lift at low load to keep the intake velocity higher, thereby atomizing the intake charge. GM encountered problems running at very low lift, and abandoned the project.

The first functional variable valve timing system, including variable lift, was developed at Fiat. Developed by Giovanni Torazza in the 1970s, the system used hydraulic pressure to vary the fulcrum of the cam followers. The hydraulic pressure changed according to engine speed and intake pressure. The typical opening variation was 37%.

The next big step was taken by Honda in the 1980s and 90s, where Honda began by experimenting with variable valve lift. Pleased with the results, engineers took the knowledge and applied it to the B16A engine, fitted to the 1989 EF9 Honda Civic. From there it has been used in a variety of applications, from sport to utility, by many different auto makers.

[gts_rosh]

^They also put it in the JDM Integra in 1989 (DA Bodystyle).

[volcomrider6]

So the point is honda was the first one to actually make vvt effective enough to mass produce it.

[gttoy]

"TOYOTA BUYS STAKE IN YAMAHA In an effort to strengthen its engine development, Toyota will buy a five percent stake in Yamaha, the world's second largest motorcycle manufacturer. Execs from both companies said they will work together on engine development, motorsports and boats. The new relationship will allow Toyota to learn from Yamaha's experience in Formula One racing, an area Toyota plans to enter in 2001."

5% is a far cry from "owning" or "being" yamaha.

You are right "my bad" i should research from now on,instead of blurting things out i think i know! :ugh:
Toyota is the biggest % holder in shares but only has like 4%.

Anywho~
The Honda patent for variable valve timing (VTEC) expires and Toyota is now allowed to introduce its version variable valve timing in the form of VVTl-i (Variable Valve Timing with lift and intelligence). A technology which is superior to Honda's VTEC Toyota and Yamaha introduce this new technology in the Celica with the 2ZZ-GE engine. In a factory built engine Toyota nearly matches Honda's hand assembled, port and polished Integra Type-R, and does away clearly dominates Honda's stock output in the GS-R (160HP)...clearly an accomplishment.
http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/history.htm

[Bi-Mon-Sci-Fi-Con]

The only thing that makes vvtl-i superior to vtec is the intake cam phasing. i-vtec does this exact same thing. also the gsr is 170hp not 160hp.

[Vant]

Lets keep in mind that this motor is powering the CIVIC. Not Si, not S2000, not Accord! It's a small ECONOMY CAR! Why the hell does it need more then 140hp?!

The Civic is competing against cars like... Lets see, the Corolla (130hp due for an upgrade like next year?), Focus (136hp), Neon (132hp), ION (140hp), Sentra (126hp), Mazda3 (148hp), Lancer (120hp), Spectra (138hp), and the new Cobalt (145hp).

So tell me, why would this engine suck in this economy class? The current Civic (MY05) already has better fuel economy then ALL of them! I can only imagine how much better this new engine is.

Oh and, the topic is about the new ENGINE, not about Honda vs. Toyota.

[Motor]

Oh and, the topic is about the new ENGINE, not about Honda vs. Toyota.

Word!

[gts_rosh]

So tell me, why would this engine suck in this economy class? The current Civic (MY05) already has better fuel economy then ALL of them! I can only imagine how much better this new engine is.

For its class the rating is fine...it just an extremely disappointing output for what they put into it. Honda's had the SOHC engine in the civic for a long time now, starting in '92 with the 1.6L SOHC 125HP /w VTEC. That then changed to 1.6L SOHC 127HP /w VTEC. Then they went to a 1.7L SOHC 127HP /w VTEC. And now 1.8L SOHC /w i-VTEC (using something way superior to VTEC) and squeezed only 11hp more...in 13yrs they made an improvement of 13HP out of there small displacement SOHC. That's where its majorly disappointing.

[Bi-Mon-Sci-Fi-Con]

So tell me, why would this engine suck in this economy class? The current Civic (MY05) already has better fuel economy then ALL of them! I can only imagine how much better this new engine is.

For its class the rating is fine...it just an extremely disappointing output for what they put into it. Honda's had the SOHC engine in the civic for a long time now, starting in '92 with the 1.6L SOHC 125HP /w VTEC. That then changed to 1.6L SOHC 127HP /w VTEC. Then they went to a 1.7L SOHC 127HP /w VTEC. And now 1.8L SOHC /w i-VTEC (using something way superior to VTEC) and squeezed only 11hp more...in 13yrs they made an improvement of 13HP out of there small displacement SOHC. That's where its majorly disappointing.



But what's the torque increase? And most importantly, what's the area under the curve? Peak HP only tells a small part of the story.

[SingleCamCivic]

We're reaching the limits of the conventional engine technology while trying to keep engines cheap and reliable. Engines will get more powerfull in the future with 1)Camless valve control 2)Direct injection and 3)Clean running motors working much like a two stroke(Two stroke motors make power every time the piston moves down, unlike a 4 stroke which is every other stroke therefore 2x the power, not likley to happen, but manufactures are reseaching that as a posibility.)

Me personally, I wouldnt mind an electric car for totin' to work in.

[GTSDOHCVVTLi]

The new engine will prob only go into their baseline Civics. I think everyone is confusing it with an Si replacement. But know that I'm thinking about it, the numbers are impressive for a SOHC motor.

[Vant]

Since when did people care about HP in a new 10k economy car?

They have low output because their main goal is economy.

But what's the torque increase? And most importantly, what's the area under the curve? Peak HP only tells a small part of the story.

Exactly. How do you know how well this engine performs when it isn't even out yet? All we know is that it is more economical (GOAL ACHIEVED) then the previous one.

[LeftOnRed]

Would anybody really be complaining about how "bad" this engine is if it was going to be the new engine for the base Corolla? It seems like instead of looking at what this engine is actually for, everybody just looked at it as an opportunity to bash Honda. Either that or most of the people here (myslef included) bought their Celica for the performance more than the economy and are having trouble grasping the fact that there are people who don't give a damn about how fast their car is, only that it gets them where they need to go without costing too much.