Best Trubo 4 Cylinder

[simphmerj]

ummm....yeah, best trubo engine (4 cylinders)...and why (to you tech people like Chui

[143hawaii]

3S-GTE all the way. Show me another TC'd I-4 that's as bulletproof.

[t2000gts]

they should've just added VVT-i to the 3S-GTE and put that in the celica...but i think it's heavier than the 2ZZ.

[The Game]

I dont recognize the two in between are they the Eclipse/Talon trubo and the WRX?:confused:

[cybrpunk]

I heard the 46G3 engine can handle handle up to, if not a little more than 25psi of boost.

[nmyeti]

Well... best is a very hard term to use in this situation...


THe 3s-gte is likley capable of the highest output once its built. The factory pistons and rods are not up to the task for that much HP from the factory.

The 4G63 motor is the stoutest from the factory. This thing is really built well, and as long as you don't end up with a 95-99 version of it you don't so much have to worry about crank walk. I think the EVO version of the motor is different enough that you don't have to really deal with crankwalk either.

The Ej20 is the best (in the us) from a power production from the factory standpoint, and has much higher flowing heads than the 4g63. In fact the ports are so large on an EJ20 that i would wager that its head will outflow any turbo motor listed here. The down side is that it will need to be built sooner than the 4G63 as the stock rods and pistons need to be beefed up. The new EJ20 is also an open deck block, so if your going to build it, you might as well get an older one or close the deck of the block you have.

The sr20DTE is a very nice block and can take quite a bit of boost from the factory if its tuned right. There are several different versions of this motor with several different power outputs. The highest rated versions are not quite up to EVO or STI specs, but very close. I do know that the motor has a nice torque curve, but the truth is i don't know quite that much about it. The only thing i really do know is that if your going to run 20psi you need water injection or a very, very well tuned ECU. However once you build the motor it will take a load of boost...

Best is such a relative term.

If you want to produce the most HP without ever opening the block though, the 4G63 wins the day.

I'll argue that most off them can produce about the same power when built with the exception of the 3s-GTE, which is a bit above the rest in this respect.

[143hawaii]

Originally posted by t2000gts
they should've just added VVT-i to the 3S-GTE and put that in the celica...but i think it's heavier than the 2ZZ.

Actually not, VVT-i isn't a benefit to any car running a turbo for one fact. VVT-i ends up advancing ignition timing too much towards the top end that either you'd want full control over it or like most people (disable it). I know what you're thinking, "Like most people? What people?" But I'm thinking in reference to the 4AGE 20V High Compression motor with VVT (similar to what's in our cars) and many who have turbo'd this engine end up disabling VVT cause near the top end it's advance ignition maps causes pinging.

Oh and nmyeti, well said. Plus the 3S-GTE is one of the cheapest engines of all listed. The markup on many other engines is insane!

[Bryan H]

crankwalk in 95-99? uh hi kids any motor can get crank walk, even your precious celica's

the stock block can handle 30 psi. for short time. the head gasket can handle 30 psi.

there is a design flaw in the 3s-gte motor
the crappy intake manifold. over 15 psi on the stock or upgraded turbo, 2-3 lean out bad and go blamo.


you build ANY motor right it can handle an obscene amount of hp. Sean Glazer putting out over 700 hp at the wheels in his awd talon
Buschar in his rwd eclipse with over 700 rwhp.
i don't see many 3s-gte's in the world of drag racing. mainly over sea's in cone carving in supra's

[nmyeti]

Originally posted by Bryan H
crankwalk in 95-99? uh hi kids any motor can get crank walk, even your precious celica's



Bryan,
are you going to deny that 95-99 4g63 motors from the DSM's are more prone to cranwalk than any other DSM block?


First time i have heard someone argue that crankwalk in a 2G is not a big deal..

-Nathan

[simphmerj]

nathan, do you know why the 3S can make more power fully built than the others? and bryan, how can you fix the problem on the 3S? also, if you feel like it, i've never completely understand the concept of crankwalk, what happens?

thanks for all the info

allan

[nmyeti]

Originally posted by simphmerj
nathan, do you know why the 3S can make more power fully built than the others? and bryan, how can you fix the problem on the 3S? also, if you feel like it, i've never completely understand the concept of crankwalk, what happens?

thanks for all the info

allan

Honestly i dont know, but i think it has to do with the ability to rev like crazy when built. The block will take a whole lot of boost as well. I have heard 1000hp out of this motor.

[Bryan H]

nathan.
i have seen miata's crank walk. i have seen mustangs do it.

what leads me to believe it in the 4g motors is the rather nasty sized clutches people run in these
i have also seen 1g 4g's crank walk.


the only reason people associate crank walk with the dsm is because there are more of these out there that are modded all to hell.

honda's have done it too.

a lot of it also has to do with maintainence. mine has been rebuilt and has no signs what so ever of crank walk.


its more capitalized because mitsu will do NOTHING for you when this happens. other auto makers will fix it and find out why it happens while mitsu sticks there thumbs up there ass while making about 6k a pop for this

it all boils down to how ontop of the maintanence you are with these cars. the motors to begin with are ***ile. once you mod them, its even worse. but if treated nicely, the power will always be there

[cybrpunk]

Sorry to sound so ignorant, but what is crank walk?

[SlasherX]

ehhhh...not all true..mitsu in 95 tried using different cranks in the 4g63 block but didn't include the different crank bearings. i believe there were 3 different bearings to be used witht eh different cranks...from teh factory the blocks would not come with teh correct bearings and were not blanced prroperly..THUS causing the crank walk..

it IS IN EVERYWAY an issue more specific to the 95-99 dsm block than other cars, that is just FACT. thats not saying other cars can't develop it, but by mitsu defect the 95-99 blocks have a higher chance of it.


to answer the question on best turboed 4 cylinder...look in the books..its the 4g63 hands down. buschur's 700rwhp out of a 2 liter, single turbo...

[143hawaii]

Yeah look in those same books and you'll find "Top Secret's" Supra. A near 800hp 3S-GTE. Not only can this motor produce outstanding numbers but like I said, it's one of the cheapest to source!

[yakkosmurf]

I want to know how many people who voted know what each of those engines are? I have a feeling most people just voted for the one they recognized.

[Brett]

I read the post before I voted. ;)

[SlasherX]

Originally posted by 143hawaii
Yeah look in those same books and you'll find "Top Secret's" Supra. A near 800hp 3S-GTE. Not only can this motor produce outstanding numbers but like I said, it's one of the cheapest to source!

since when did a supra come with a turbo 4 cylinder in it?

the 4g63 was put in eclipses and it is raced in eclipses. it has a bigger aftermarket, is more proven because more people use it, and is about to get into the 7's.

i know this is a toyota board so people are voting for what they know, etc. but over time the block thats gotten the most attention, use, and has proven itself the most has been the 4g63.


BTW..700rwhp translates to over 800hp at the crank.

[Bryan H]

Daves right. the 3s motor is bad ass
i have seen Ej's propel an awd to over 200 mph
i've seen sr20's run 9's with stock heads
the 4g motor has propelled Evo's to over 200 mph and they still come back for more. and also the ability to run 7's att he blink of an eye with over 700 hp


just because this is a toyota board in general doesn't mean that the 3s rules all.

i have seen more 3s's self distruct then 4g's crankwalk


there are at least 4-5 theroys on why a dsm is prone to crank walk.
friend of mines 93 just crank walked on him. which leads me to believe that the clutch being too large for it is more apt to wear it out faster then anything.
whats odd is i have the same clutch in my car and its peachy. then again its not a stock lower-end and has been balanced and blue printed with new bearings and other d00 dads'


this subject is always being debated on the talon digest

[Qwertop]

I want to know how many people who voted know what each of those engines are? I have a feeling most people just voted for the one they recognized.

lol, thats true, i only recognized 2 of the engines. i still don't know what the sr20DTE is.

[Brett]

Nissan Engine I believe.

[Bryan H]

the sr20de-t is a happy motor, cna handle 450 hp or more on the bottom end

made by nissan
put in the sylvia's
sunny's
pulsar gti-r's
and some other cars.
its a common swap here in the states for the 240 sx's
se-r sentra's
infiniti g-20's
the bad thing is they are rather expensive

if someone says they have a sr20de-t
ask them if they have a red or black top
red is the most common used

[cybrpunk]

So in conclusion... What the hell is crank walk?

[simphmerj]

Originally posted by Bryan H
the sr20de-t is a happy motor, cna handle 450 hp or more on the bottom end
made by nissan
put in the sylvia's sunny's pulsar gti-r's and some other cars.
its a common swap here in the states for the 240 sx's se-r sentra's infiniti g-20's the bad thing is they are rather expensive
if someone says they have a sr20de-t
ask them if they have a red or black top
red is the most common used

yeah, the red is more common cuz it's cheaper...it uses the smaller T25 as opposed to the black's T28 stock...but both can be upgraded easily so might as well start w/ the cheap one.

and for those who haven't figured it out:
4G63 = Eclipse Turbo/Evo
EJ20 = most prominently in WRX
SR20DET = Jspec Nissan engine used in a variety of cars
3S-GTE = Celica All-Trac, MKII Turbo, and used in racing Supra's in Japan (it's used cuz there is a hp limit in the series so they use a lighter engine capable of making the power limit - if you don't believe me, fire up GT3; in the opening if you look closely, the engine under the hood of teh Tom's Supra has only 4 vertical pistons - its the 3S-GTE)

if you didn't recognize all the engine codes, you probably shouldn't have voted (was looking for turbo educated people :) )

allan

[nmyeti]

Originally posted by SlasherX


since when did a supra come with a turbo 4 cylinder in it?



To answer your question, there are several supra's in japan that swap the 3s 4 banger into the supra for better weight distribution and lighter overall weight. Most of these series have limits on how much power you can make, and since the 3s can make needed 800hp, its a logical choice... also helps the supra save the front tires in long races as less weight is over the front axle...

Bushers 600whp 4 banger is nice, but id rather have rob millians 900whp 3s...

[nmyeti]

Originally posted by cybrpunk
So in conclusion... What the hell is crank walk?


when a crank destroys its own thrust bearings and moves around on in the motor is the short of it...


While bryan is right, any motor can crankwalk, he is wrong in that there is actually a design flaw in the 2G dsm block.

In 99 mits tried to solve this with a 3 peice thrust bearing setup... it didn't work all that well as we still hear of 99s crankwalking.

While its true that the 1g blocks can do it, its more like a 1:100 ratio of 1G to 2G.

Never heard of a Ej20 crankwalking, never heard of a 3S crankwalking.

I do know that stangs have this problem with the old 5.0 blocks sometimes, but still not as bad as a it seems to hit the 2G dsm cars.

[Bryan H]

Originally posted by nmyeti



To answer your question, there are several supra's in japan that swap the 3s 4 banger into the supra for better weight distribution and lighter overall weight. Most of these series have limits on how much power you can make, and since the 3s can make needed 800hp, its a logical choice... also helps the supra save the front tires in long races as less weight is over the front axle...

Bushers 600whp 4 banger is nice, but id rather have rob millians 900whp 3s...

buschars car is actually in the neighborhood of 746 now
there was an update on the talon digest about it thats also at the wheels
he was pissed because he couldn't get lower then a 1.2 60ft
bastard
:(

[simphmerj]

Originally posted by nmyeti

To answer your question, there are several supra's in japan that swap the 3s 4 banger into the supra for better weight distribution and lighter overall weight. Most of these series have limits on how much power you can make, and since the 3s can make needed 800hp, its a logical choice... also helps the supra save the front tires in long races as less weight is over the front axle...

ha, i beat you to the explanation...although i wasn't nearly as detailed.:D

[[Sp3eD] KiLLz]

Nissan has a new version of the sr20 engine in Japan. They named it the sr20V et - That V means variable valve timing + lift duh. What I heard was that it was the firstturbo engine with a variable technology straight from the manufacturer. The engine debuetd on an SUV <insert "wtf!?!" here> called the "X-Tail" in Japan ( i think its 280HP@6400). It's likely to see this engine to be put under the hood of the next Siliva. All i can say is..

.... damn you greedy Japanese people. :sad

[superman1240]

Um SR20DET! all forged, micropolished internals, that even left stock are known to withstand 500hp.

[SlasherX]

Originally posted by superman1240
Um SR20DET! all forged, micropolished internals, that even left stock are known to withstand 500hp.

dear god this thread is old.

and no, it's not the SR20DET.

[WillyK]

Originally posted by superman1240
Um SR20DET! all forged, micropolished internals, that even left stock are known to withstand 500hp.

I can not believe you brought a thread up that is over a year old.

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Bryan H
crankwalk in 95-99? uh hi kids any motor can get crank walk, even your precious celica's

the stock block can handle 30 psi. for short time. the head gasket can handle 30 psi.

there is a design flaw in the 3s-gte motor
the crappy intake manifold. over 15 psi on the stock or upgraded turbo, 2-3 lean out bad and go blamo.


you build ANY motor right it can handle an obscene amount of hp. Sean Glazer putting out over 700 hp at the wheels in his awd talon
Buschar in his rwd eclipse with over 700 rwhp.
i don't see many 3s-gte's in the world of drag racing. mainly over sea's in cone carving in supra's

Thats because drag racing is for pansys. (Okay not really but its not where the 3S-GTE has been most heavily developed) The 3S-GTE in the pikes peak Celica put out 1000 bhp at sea level.

[CelicaLicious]

i choose the Mazda BP engine, same engine as the miata. they dont sell that motor with the turbo on it in the US, but its all the same.

very robust internals, iron block, 8.8 CR, very easy to mod.. and best of all it has been known to handle 10-12PSI NON-INTERCOOLED with good tuning of course. but you can easily push 25+ PSI on the stock internals.. doesnt make as much power as the 3SGTE but i still like it better :)

[2002GT_Celica]

Oh no, there's a newbie on the loose and he's reviving dead threads!

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

EJ20 POWER!!!

[phaqgm]

Originally posted by Bryan H
crankwalk in 95-99? uh hi kids any motor can get crank walk, even your precious celica's

the stock block can handle 30 psi. for short time. the head gasket can handle 30 psi.

there is a design flaw in the 3s-gte motor
the crappy intake manifold. over 15 psi on the stock or upgraded turbo, 2-3 lean out bad and go blamo.


you build ANY motor right it can handle an obscene amount of hp. Sean Glazer putting out over 700 hp at the wheels in his awd talon
Buschar in his rwd eclipse with over 700 rwhp.
i don't see many 3s-gte's in the world of drag racing. mainly over sea's in cone carving in supra's

Umm, have you not seen the 8 second 7th gen RWD Celica from Puerto Rico using the 3S-GTE?

[phaqgm]

Originally posted by Griffin


Thats because drag racing is for pansys. (Okay not really but its not where the 3S-GTE has been most heavily developed) The 3S-GTE in the pikes peak Celica put out 1000 bhp at sea level.

That is a 503E, not a 3S-GTE.

[Toy Yoda]

The 3s-gte has been around for a long time, finding it's way into cars like the MR2-GT, Celica GT4, JGTC Supra, JGTC MR2, JGTC MR-S, Celica GT4 WRC, Corolla WRC, Caldina GT4, etc... I don't think any other motor can match it's versatility, and awesome potential...
The 4G63 and EJ20 would be close behind, also finding their way into WRC cars, and 2wd cars like the DSMs (well, the 4g63 anyways)... SR20DET is a venerable engine, but it doesn't seem like it finds it's way into as wide a range of vehicles as the other 3 (esp. the 3S-gte)
I mean, the 3sgte can go circuit racing, dragging, or rallying... A motor that versatile has to have some magic going for it...

EDIT: Can someone please tell me which of these motors is the oldest?

[The Game]

What would "Other" be??

[t2000gts]

i was about to say this post was repost x1000 but it's the original thing :)

Other might mean 2ZZ-GTE :chuckles:

[Dyno Boy]

No doubt the best 4 cylinder of all time is the Toyota 503E. It easily ran 1000 Hp in the IMSA GTP days with All American Racers and ran it at the 24 hours of Daytona. Proving to its durability, it ran this distance running over 100 InHg of boost (approximately 35 psi). This is the same engine that was used in the Pikes Peak Celica and Tacoma. Here, it ran similar boost levels but in the last few runs used an extra shot of nitrous.

[iwantone]

u forgot vw 1.8t, those damn thing are bulletproof, "oh yeah, FWIW, the last time I was on the dyno, saturday, I made 461 wheel... Almost 550 hp at the crank..."

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=573803

[Toy Yoda]

Good info on the 503E... What was it mounted in? Any street cars, or was it a competition-only engine?

[Dyno Boy]

Originally posted by Toy Yoda
Good info on the 503E... What was it mounted in? Any street cars, or was it a competition-only engine?

Just like their CART engine, it was pretty much kept in a stronghold by Toyota/TRD. It was closely guarded, and even when the time came to retire most of the engines, they were nearly completely destroyed to deter being used by some grassroots level raceteams. There was, however, a rumor that a few slipped past the shredder, rebuilt, then sold to Japan to a select team that experimented with it in their Touring Series Supra - supposedly advertising them as 3SGTs.

[GTSpec]

u guys are going on about race cars. thats pretty much irrelevant. if you spend enuf money on an engine, the things gonna make power. simple. those engines with 1000hp reading are modded so extremely that they dont even resemble the original motor.

fact is, out of the factory, the 4G63 used in the evos are the best engines. next would be the SR20DET, then EJ20 and last of all the 3S-GTE.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by GTSpec
u guys are going on about race cars. thats pretty much irrelevant. if you spend enuf money on an engine, the things gonna make power. simple. those engines with 1000hp reading are modded so extremely that they dont even resemble the original motor.

fact is, out of the factory, the 4G63 used in the evos are the best engines. next would be the SR20DET, then EJ20 and last of all the 3S-GTE.

it might help if you told us what you were basing this on....i think the 3S-GTE is prettier than all the other engines so it's #1 in my book.

[ringthree]

Originally posted by SlasherX


since when did a supra come with a turbo 4 cylinder in it?


It never came from the factory that way but every JGTC team that runs a Supra has replaced the 2jz with a 3s.

[theos]

The celica gt-4 engine (all-trac) is very reliable...my friend had 150,000 miles and was running great.. WRX on the other hand is definetely not consider reliable, as many people had to do engine repair after 50,000 miles(at least in Greece) but then cars there are more tuned than here. Then Mitsubishi, my experience with Mitsu cars was not as good as Toyotas and Nissan's. So i dont know, but i can definetely recommend more than one Toyota factory turboed engine..

[theos]

drag racing its not a way to prove a cars reliability..its just stupid

[ringthree]

Bah, I am an entirely useless poster.

[EuGeNiLe GTS]

4G63 all the way.. i think its kinda biased since most peopl here are toyota owners and all they HEAR about is 3SGTE.. EXPERIENCE it.. bryan h already said the why my vote is with the 4g63.. :)

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by theos
Then Mitsubishi, my experience with Mitsu cars was not as good as Toyotas and Nissan's. So i dont know, but i can definetely recommend more than one Toyota factory turboed engine..
Nissan isn't exactly the star of reliability either. Every Z owner I know had problems with them. Especially the TT models...

[The Game]

Originally posted by theos
drag racing its not a way to prove a cars reliability..its just stupid :werd: More people should realize that!

[HowlerMonkey]

Sorry dudes but the greatest 4 cylinder engine is the BMW M12/13. This was a production based engine.

http://www.angusmcinnes.com/trad/motor/bt52_01.jpg

[Toy Yoda]

Was it turbocharged?

BTW: Notice that the thread title is not "Best grassroots/street-use turbo 4cyl"...
it's "Best turbo 4 cyl"
That would imply that stock is not the only factor we're looking at... potential and versatility is in too...
Have there been any 4g63-powered JGTC cars? Doesn't seem like Mitsu is very prominent there...
The EJ20 is there, but in the GT300 (300ps class), where as the 3sgte powers the Supras in the GT500 (500ps) class, AND the MR2/MR-S of the GT300 class (300ps)... We all know that EJ20, 4G63, and 3S-GTE are/were the kings of the rally scene during their times, so the 3 engines are fairly even in that respect.
Because of the 3S-GTE's versatility, I would give it the nod...

PS: Very interesting info on the 503E!

[Griffin]

Originally posted by phaqgm


That is a 503E, not a 3S-GTE.

Doh - you are correct. I heard the horsepower spec on the Pikes Peak Celi YEARS ago and never even bothered to associate it with the fact that it was that close to the 503E. Shame on me for not doing my homework. I just figured they probably used the 3S. In that case the most I have heard of the 3S pumping out is about 750 HP with totally non stock internals. It still gets my vote though, because I have one :)

Griffin = owned :)

[HowlerMonkey]

Yes the engine was put into tons of BMW 2002, 320i, and 318i cars.

They kicked mucho ass.

http://www.bmw2002.co.uk/transam1a.jpg


Yes it was turbocharged first in this car......


http://www.carclassic.com/images1ba/BE41/BE41-2.jpg


Then it showed up here..........

http://www.autotrend.com/pic/9393.jpg


You can buy one from 1976 here.........


http://www.carclassic.com/images1ba/BE13/BE13-1.jpg


Then it showed up in this car and won the formula one championship.


http://www.m3-motorsport.demon.co.uk/81gp01.jpg



The engine was dyno'd but the dyno only went up to 1260hp. The engine topped out the dyno easily. They were rumored to make over 1500hp in qualifying and 1250 for the race. The blocks used were stock cast iron blocks from cars with over 100,000 miles because they had less stress.