Debating the Teins

[CloNeGTS]

Anyone have experience with both the SS and HAs? I've got a shot at getting a pretty unused set of HAs or I can wait and pick up a set of SSs whenever I want.

The spring rates are as follows, from the Tein website.

SS Front 280 Rear 392
HA Front 392 Rear 504

Those are some significant differences. How bad would the HAs be for your daily driver? I need something more for autox but I really don't wanna kill the drivability. I still have to drive 20k miles non autox a year.

Any input from the autoxers. I know GTS LAID said the HAs might be a bit much IHO.

[autxr]

How are the roads there in Kansas? I am leaning towards the HA's myself, but I'm still not sure. NC has great roads, and they are supposed to be tolerable on the softer shock settings.

The other concern is how smooth your event sites are. One of the places we go is kind of bumpy (Virginia Motorsports Park), so stiffer isn't always better. I drove scapamouch's car at VMP and it wasn't bad at all, and he is on the HA's.

For a road course, the HA's would be great. I still think about 350 fornt and 450 rear would be a good compromise.

You can always order different spring rates later on. Start with the Tein SS, then if you want stiffer, move the back springs to the front and get new rears (this only works if they are the right length).

Scott

[Kendo]

The spring diameter is different between the front and rear so making a swap is not possible. As for driving with the HA's everyday it is not bad. A little bumpy but you are young.

[GTS LAID]

you know whats strange is i was reading the SCC today... they have a crazy shootout between 2 cars with the same shocks but with different spring rates... it was the 2 progressive cars.. one tuned to acura race standards and the other tuned to progressive standards... one of them was something like 75% stiffer in the front and 35% stiffer in the rear and the other was 35% stiffer in the front and rear... the second one got 0.99 on the 200ft pad and the stiffer one got 0.96... i'm gonna post a scan of it in a sec.

[GTS LAID]

http://www.radphys.com/progressive_rsx_1.jpg

http://www.radphys.com/progessive_rsx_2.jpg

[GTS LAID]

ok after re reading it my numbers are a little off... but you get the point...

[CloNeGTS]

So you're saying higher spring rate will not only kill your ass on the bumps, but it may not give better performance? I dunno how fair that comparison is either, one was on 16s, and on wider rubber.....who knows.

You're on the SSs right LAID....have you ever wanted stiffer springs?

[Jesse IL]

As far as I know, the Tein HA have standard size race-type springs. You could always change the springs very affordably later on. Of course then the shock valving would be off. My suggestions:

1. Get the whole Whiteline suspension setup from Australia with the revalved Koni's, their sway bar setup and the rear roll center adjuster

2. Get a coilover setup from Truechoice. They have experience with both race and street (SCC) Celicas and would custom make something to your specs. They could also give you good shock settings to work with. Owning a motorcycle with a fully adjustable suspension, its harder than you think to dial in the damping. IMO it would be nice to have someone experienced with the Celica to give you a suspension with a good setup already in place.

[GTS LAID]

yeah i'm running the SS clone... and in NJ theres a lot of construction and it really kicks my ass sometimes... even when its set at 8 on the dampener.

[MOHRSPD]

You may want to wait until Aug. when the Celica shootout is published. Hotchkis came out on top.

MOHRSPD

[CloNeGTS]

Well yes, I know that....but there is a big difference between $2k and $1k......that decision has been made.

Jesse....I'm not all that interested in a full race adjustable suspension and I'm not too worried about the adjustments. I'm just trying to get an idea of around what spring rate the ride of our cars goes from sporty to ass-bruising.

[Jesse IL]

Yeah, but you realize that you have to match the shock valving to the spring rate, regardless of whether you're interested in the adjustments, right? Teins have damping adjustments, and you would get no recommended setup from them. One of the two places I recommended could take your concerns into account and valve the shocks accordingly.

I'm still skeptical about the Hotchkis setup until I read the article. DOT race tires make a big difference.

[nxracer]

Originally posted by Jesse IL
I'm still skeptical about the Hotchkis setup until I read the article. DOT race tires make a big difference.

Ditto. It's very likely that us "stock" class drivers on Hoosiers and or Kumho's are pulling 1g. If I remember correctly a couple years ago there was a Skid Pad challenge the day before nationals and a stock class Neon pulled more than 1g

Ever wonder why Stock class is faster than STS?

[GTS LAID]

plus i dont want to bad talk the shootout before it comes out but its really like comparing apples to oranges... unless they have indentical cars except for one of the suspension components... like for example i think that if they really wanted to go head to head with a hotchkis then they can use my car.. its got all the hotchkis components except for the TEIN coilovers.. that would be an objective and controlled experiment...

[CloNeGTS]

Very true LAID. I don't know that has even been a comparison of products that's not leaned in one corner's favor. You'd have to do components^2 tests to get the best of everything, otherwise one spectacular component for one company could hide the failures of the rest of their components.

And Jesse, I understand the how dampening thing. It's just that 99% of my driving is road/highway where a sporty ride is my goal. My main concern is the spring rates.....once I get that figured out, I'll work on the shock tuning. Realistically, we would have to own a race team with an amazing budget to ever get a perfectly tuned suspension. I figure with the resource I have, I'll find a set of Teins with a decent ride quality and go from there...again, for my purposes.

I would love to see what the Whiteline setup is like. What is the availability of their parts looking like? It's been a while since we've heard from what's-his-name.

[Blixx]

I rode on HA's all last year, daily driver and autox. Swapping back to stock was an eye-opener, much better ride on the street. Although the HA's never bothered me. My butt-dyno said I was faster with the HA's autoxing, for what it's worth.

Blake

Ps. Anyone have a SEVERE problem with that article above? They used the stock shocks... WTF? Guess what, when I had GC's and stock shocks my car drove like junk, duh. Part of tuning a suspension is matching shocks to springs, that's why Koni's get re-valved all the time. Of course, it IS indicative of what most people do to their street cars.

[GTS LAID]

well my guess is that if they used the stock shocks they kept ride height the same to try to minimize the damage...

[Jesse IL]

The biggest problem with retaining the stock shocks is the lack of damping when going to stiffer lowering springs. Of course, reduced suspension travel is also a problem, but not as big as the damping problem. What I'm saying with Clone is that if he buys Teins and switches to less stiff springs, he will have an overdamping problem. He would most likely have to run the shocks on the lowest setting all the time.

[CloNeGTS]

I hear ya Jesse.....I didn't mean to say I'd switch the springs....I just wanted to know whether to get the SS or HAs. Since both are made with a certain spring rate in mind, it should be alright. Then it's just figuring out which damn settings to use for street/track. That article posted in the Performance section about the HA install on the Miata was helpful.

I got to thinking more about the whole spring swap without changing the shocks.....if they are progressive springs, until you are driving 8-9/10s, you're probably rolling on about the same spring rate as stock....so the shock wouldn't know any different. I was worried about my TRD springs with the stock shocks, but a year later, the ride still feels great. I just want more now!

[Jesse IL]

My ride with Progress springs (progressive in front, straight rate in back, 1.75" drop) is horrible after about 23,000 miles with them on. My shocks are killed :(

[CloNeGTS]

No kidding? Wow, that was quick.

Yeah, around 20k on the TRDs and she still feels great.

[ishido]

My friend had some info on Tein's over at I-club (Subby website). There was a discussion about corrosion regarding the coil-overs.
It has something to do with 2 different metal types encouraging corrosion. Dunno if you guys have heard about it... I'd like to get these myself. :1


http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=170515

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72202&highlight=corrosion+coilover

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=69916&highlight=tein+corrosion

[GTS LAID]

yea corrosion will affect any part thats threaded like the teins.. its noting new... just have to inspect and clean them every year and you'll be fine... its a good idea to give your suspension a rebuild just to inspect everything... especially if you plan on racing it frequently.

[Whiteline]

G'day everyone,

Apologies for delay in replying but only just saw this post.

CloNeGTS, availability of our stuff in the US should be much improved with the recent appointment of a heap of new dealers ( http://www.whiteline.com.au/dealers_usa.htm ).

For anyone interested, we have quite a bit of info regarding the spring/shock relationship on our web site under the FAQ section http://www.whiteline.com.au/faqshocks01.htm. The important thing as "Jesse IL" said is to try to maintian a close relationship between spring and shock rates. Specifically, its hard to expect a standard shock to deal with a 35-50% (typical range) increased spring rate found in lowered springs. The rebound rate in particular, is designed around the spring rate.

Hope this helps

Cheers
Jim Gurieff ( what-his-name :-) )
Whiteline

[ConeKiller]

Boy, I wish I could have been invited to the Celica Shootout. No one has more seat time in Celica tuning then us Autocross group as a collective. Slap a set of Falkins on the car, and we probably would have run circles around them!

[liquid]

Coming from someone who ran the Teins for over a year, they never bothered me on the road. They were very impressive on the track too. I had the chance to compare head to head a car with stock springs/shocks, trd springs/stock shocks, and a Tein HA kit on Talladega Gran Prix. The difference between the 3 was great.

The Tein HA was a well matched kit, you won't be disappointed.