vtec vs. vvtl

[xNiNjAx]

So which one came out first and which is better? I noticed that Honda people always clown on vvtl since they say toyota jacked hondas idea. I was just wondering what the real facts were.

[soceur]

all i can say young member is.....SEARCH FUNCTION.

[Gay-R-D]

Basic rundown.

Ford and Toyota patented Variable Valve Timing.
Honda COPIED or should I say got the idea from them and modified the Variable Valve Timing way way after and it is now what you would call VTEC. VVTL-i came after then i-Vtec. From what everyone says, VVTL-i is a lot more complex then Vtec.

Everyone copies from everyone. But the true orgins of Valve Timing isnt with Honda. Honda came late in the game but had such a good marketing campaign for VTEC, that it basically brainwashed everyone into thinking they created it.

[BoonyBoun]

Huh? I think you got it backwards. Honda first introduced variable valve timing in a production car in the early 90's with the NSX. After that...toyota, bmw, ford, and everyone else followed because Honda had a patent on the technology.

[Gay-R-D]

Originally posted by BoonyBoun
Huh? I think you got it backwards. Honda first introduced variable valve timing in a production car in the early 90's with the NSX. After that...toyota, bmw, ford, and everyone else followed because Honda had a patent on the technology.

You are mistaken.

Ford and Toyota had patents since 1976 on variable valve timing, ergo, Honda was very late in the game, but improved on a technology and made it better. Variable Valve Timing actually originated from airplane engines in Europe.

[yakkosmurf]

All Honda did for variable valve timing was put in consumer engines and market it. They showed it could be used with good results in consumer level cars. That's all they deserve credit for. The guys saying Toyota ripped Honda off... Two things about them. First, they probably don't know anything about the history of variable valve timing or how it works. Second, they are half right. Toyota ripped off the idea of putting it on passenger cars. But that idea you can't patent.

[xNiNjAx]

Originally posted by soceur
all i can say young member is.....SEARCH FUNCTION.

I did run a search. And if you're going to take the time to post that crap, why don't you just answer the question?

I'm also curious regarding which one is better since Honda peeps seem so proud of their vtec logos.

[yakkosmurf]

I think at this point, the better one depends on what you're trying to do. VVTL-i is probably better in stock config. The computer can adjust the timing as much as it wants. It's not limited to two settings. However, I think at this point regular VTEC is more tuner friendly. You can get a set of cam gears and adjust the cam timing the way you want without the computer overriding the setting to get back to more factory specs. Once the controllers come around for VVTL-i and i-VTEC, I think they will be better systems all around. Until then, I'd rather have VTEC to be able to mess with my own cam timing.

[AkUmA]

hmmm, alot of car companies have the vvt stuff.

my old 90' 300zx had a version of variable valve timing. i think the late 80's toyotas had a version in there also. it wasnt until honda advertized they version that its gotten so big. yeah, the different companies kinda copy the design and then add something new to say it totally different. i didnt know anything about v-tec or vvt until the mid 90's, but found out its been out for a long time. vvt, vvt-i, v-tec, iv-tec... its all good. only cars i have driven with the vvt are the 94 prelude, 90 300zx, civic ex, accord v6, all are nice, but i just cant get over the lift of the gt-s :gap: ;)

[Da Kine Guy]

VTEC = variable lift/timing/duration system with two different profile cams for each valve which change the lift, duration, and timing. VTEC is NOT continuously variable, it is a staged system based on RPM.

VVTi = continuously adjustable intake cam shaft which allows for the timing to be adjusted according to RPM. Valve duration and lift is completely unaffected as the same cam lobes are used throughout.

VVTLi = continuously adjustable intake cam shaft, as in VVTi, but with a second cam lobe which engages at a preset RPM in the ECU. The second lobe affects lift and duration. Timing is still being adjusted by the variable camshaft.

iVTEC = Read VVTLi, but I think they might have an adjustable exhaust cam shaft as well. As we can see by the power numbers it has minimal affect on performance.

iVTEC and VVTLi adjust the cam shaft timing in EXACTLY the same manner. So far all cam shafts are adjusted the same way, whether it be VVTi, iVTEC, or BMW's Vanos, they all use a screw type mechanism to adjust the timing. I'll post a picture of the system if anyone requests. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LIFT ON VVTLi AND VTEC(or iVTEC) IS THE WAY IN WHICH THE SECOND CAM LOBE ENGAGES ITSELF.

VTEC uses hydraulic pressure and metal rods to connect up a second rocker arm being driven by the high RPM cam lobe. When locked up the whole rocker assembly is now driven by the high RPM cam lobe, thus changing the valves behavior to the high RPM cam profile.

VVTLi uses a freely moving rod in the main rocker arm to allow the high RPM cam lobe to not affect the valves. When engaged a small stopper pin is pushed underneath the freely moving rod, thus taking away the space it had to move freely in. The rod then touches the pin which allows the high RPM cam profile to affect the rocker arm and valve behavior. Think of it this way, get a pencil and hold it 1cm above a button. Now move the pencil down 1cm and then up 1cm, repeat forever. You will never push the button in. Now what if someone stuck a 1cm high block between your pencil and the button. You would now hit the block and in turn make the block push the button. Same thing with VVTLi's lift.

Hope this helps :D

[xNiNjAx]

Haha thanks that helped a lot.

[FriedRice]

the best is bmw's VANOS.... nothing comes close..... and i think the people at the end hit the nail rite on the head.... vtec was first put into production cars, but toyota and ford had their hands on it in the beginning..... and vvt-i is more advanced than vtec... i could be wrong.... why dont we have vvt-i stickers all over our cars if its better? i dont understand....

[SuperCelica[GTS]]

all i know is that my VVTL-i kick in way harder than VTECs do and people def notice easier, cuz its so much difference

[TheX-Man]

Originally posted by BoonyBoun
Huh? I think you got it backwards. Honda first introduced variable valve timing in a production car in the early 90's with the NSX. After that...toyota, bmw, ford, and everyone else followed because Honda had a patent on the technology.

I thought the first car with vtec was like the crx or civic? In the late 80s. JDM not USDM. Unless the first vtec was in the nsx in 1991.

[djm221]

iVTEC does not adjust the cam timing on the exhaust valves. And adjusting the exhaust timing does help power, ex. the BEAMS dual VVT-i 2.0l 3S-GE with 200HP @ 7,500RPM and 151 lb-ft @ 4,X00 RPM.

[djm221]

Oh, and as for which, vvtl-i vs. vtec, is better, it depends on what you look at. VTEC still has the highest specific output in the S2000 @ 120hp/l VVTL-i is more advanced as everyone has said. Look at this comparison of a GT-S vs. ITR dyno. Even though the peak power on the ITR seems a little weak, before the 2nd cam on both, the torque on the GT-Ss 1.8l is higher than the ITRs 1.8l. Sure, there are a couple of factors, but the VVT-i part is a big factor in the difference.
http://subzero.mine.nu/celica/gts_vs_type-r_dyno_chart.jpg

[VZV21]

People forget that Toyota had a VVT system in 1991 for the 4A-GE 20V.

Basically a 2 stage intake timing phaser, which was hydraulically activated. THis was the predecessor to VVT-i.

The 3S-GE Dual VVT-i got 210 bhp with the 6-speed manual, and 200 bhp with the automatic.

VTEC also came in 2 flavors:
VTEC standard: both intake & exhaust cam profile change
VTEC-E: intake cam profile change

i-VTEC comes in two flavors (using the RSX for example)
RSX: Cam profile change on the intake only (equivalent to VTEC-E, with Toyota's VVT-i system)
RSX Type-S: Cam profile change on intake and exhaust cam (see VVTL-i)

[t2000gts]

when you talk about comparing the B18C to the 2ZZ-GE, you are NOT comparing VVTL-i and i-VTEC, you're comparing the respective lift cam lobe profiles...and in that case, the lift on the 2ZZ is a little more aggressive.

if Honda wanted, they could make the lift on the B18C or the K20A just as aggressive, or even more passive, same for Toyota. that has to do with the car itself and what kind of powerband and power figures are needed.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by SuperCelica[GTS]
all i know is that my VVTL-i kick in way harder than VTECs do and people def notice easier, cuz its so much difference
It depends on what VTEC cams you're referring to. How big of a kick depends on what your two cam lift settings are. If the low one peaks at 3k rpm, then a transition to the large one at 6k will produce a kick. If your low rpm cam peaks at 4500 rpm and you transition at 6k, not as much kick. Less kick on the transition is a better system. Ideally, you'd feel no kick at all. Just a continuous increase in power. Anybody driven the RSX-S?

[infinitegts]

Besides how easy is it to buy Civic Type R or Jun Vtec cams to make your Vtec kick in like a banshee?

[djm221]

Originally posted by t2000gts
when you talk about comparing the B18C to the 2ZZ-GE, you are NOT comparing VVTL-i and i-VTEC, you're comparing the respective lift cam lobe profiles...and in that case, the lift on the 2ZZ is a little more aggressive.

if Honda wanted, they could make the lift on the B18C or the K20A just as aggressive, or even more passive, same for Toyota. that has to do with the car itself and what kind of powerband and power figures are needed.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't lift on the B18C5 (that's the ITR engine, right?) higher than the 2ZZ?
Anyway, the point of my little post was the VVT-i part vs. no VVT on the low speed cams.

[ringthree]

Originally posted by xNiNjAx


I did run a search. And if you're going to take the time to post that crap, why don't you just answer the question?

I'm also curious regarding which one is better since Honda peeps seem so proud of their vtec logos.

The reason that he told you to search instead of reposting is because some of us have already done the work to find out and had long and involved discussions on the issue.

[xNiNjAx]

Yea but if you take a look at the date under my screen name, you can see I registered just recently. So forgive me for resurrecting an old topic.

[yakkosmurf]

Notice the intelligence level of those who are so proud of their VTEC badges. Most of them have no idea of what it really is nor how it works nor how engines work. There was a push here a year ago or so to make VVTL-i badges. They looked pretty dumb. Much like the VTEC badges. Why do you need to advertise what's in your car? If your car is fast, people will know.

[CSteckel]

All I have to say is:

Kine Guy...props for breaking it all the way down. That was the best written comparison of all variations of this patent that I have ever seen!

[TypeSzH]

Don't matter Vtec or VVTi.


BMW's Valvetronic own it all.

[ArchangelX]

I think it's amazing that two totally differently designed engines can be so similar in the output on the dyno. Kinda neat.

[The Game]

Heres a question I cant seem to answer??? How does SOHC VTEC work?? :confused:

[FriedRice]

VANOS or double VANOS... yep.... anyway u look at it... german engineering owns...

[SlasherX]

<img src="http://people.clemson.edu/~brewerk/misc/funnystuff/tftfvtec.jpg">

[VZV21]

Originally posted by The Game
Heres a question I cant seem to answer??? How does SOHC VTEC work?? :confused:

Since both the intake & exhaust cam profiles are on one camshaft, basically the same thing,

[Da Kine Guy]

since it seems some ppl could benefit from this info I am gonna bump it back up :)

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by djm221

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't lift on the B18C5 (that's the ITR engine, right?) higher than the 2ZZ?
Anyway, the point of my little post was the VVT-i part vs. no VVT on the low speed cams.

i don't remember actually, it very well might be. but there's more to the kick/power than just the lobe profile, there's also head design/flow, and ecu timing.

also, the 2ZZ's 2nd cam kicks in at 6200rpm, i was under the impression, the more aggressive the cam, the higher it needed to be activated so as to avoid bog and losing power, which is precisely what some guys experienced when playing with the ECU via Power FC, or the VVTL-i solenoid, etc. (of course it could just be that they didn't alter the timing or any of the rest of the VVT-i part that isn't variable and is hardcoded into the timing maps).

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by t2000gts


also, the 2ZZ's 2nd cam kicks in at 6200rpm, i was under the impression, the more aggressive the cam, the higher it needed to be activated so as to avoid bog and losing power,
Not necessarily. The amount of lift is one factor. The other factor is the valve timing. The guys that are having problems aren't reducing the valve timing slightly. It's all a trade off that you have to do some tuning to get right. Just because a crossover point is higher, does not mean the lift or duration on the cam is more aggressive.

[Celicasaur]

i never heard of bmw's valvetronic system until a few months ago and even still, didnt bother taking any notice of it because i assumed it was a new concept...

but according to some posts above, it seems like bmw's has been around for a long time and is meant to be the best???

can somebody explain why, or how this is possible? do they have a vtec kick like we get in our jap cars, or is it a smooth transition? is that why some bmw 3 series cars (the bigger engined ones 2.5l and above) have a very nice sound at high revs also?

[drewd]

You lucky 2zz guys. :sadpace:

[FITGT]

You lucky 2zz guys. :sadpace:


x2

Just for the record this is the best thread that I have seen in a long time that describes vtec vs vvti. Thanks for the info.

[dratinie]

All I have to say is:

Kine Guy...props for breaking it all the way down. That was the best written comparison of all variations of this patent that I have ever seen!

I was having a problem getting the picture in my head of how the VVTL-i works, but man, Kine Guy really said it all. I totally agree with CSteckel! Humm.. I think one the reasons why we can definitely feel the lift compared to the Vtec is because the torque drops from 4,000rpm - 6,000rpm, then lift engages afterwards. But then again, lift does kick-in a lot harder!

[o0o0oitzsuzi]

wow... resurrecting a 4 year old post. lol

great descriptions of vtec and vvtl-i. nice break down.

[Celicasaur]

lol, but erm...anybody know more about the bmw system?

[bigjuice61]

all i know is the new dual vanos and valvetronic is amazing the best of both worlds bottom end torque and high rpm horsepower and ive owned vtec and vvtli motor and i like both bone stock the 2zz will make more power and definatly more torque than a b18 and will make the same 5,6,700 horsepower but the 2zz doesnt have enough of a bearing surface to hold anything over 450 for to long anyways honda have already fixed those problems with there h22 and all b, d, and k series motors so until someone either makes some custom cranks and better bearings rod,and main we will always be limited to certain numbers.

[RTZCeli]

Interesting... :popcorn:

[lVlemphizStylez]

all i know is the new dual vanos and valvetronic is amazing the best of both worlds bottom end torque and high rpm horsepower and ive owned vtec and vvtli motor and i like both bone stock the 2zz will make more power and definatly more torque than a b18 and will make the same 5,6,700 horsepower but the 2zz doesnt have enough of a bearing surface to hold anything over 450 for to long anyways honda have already fixed those problems with there h22 and all b, d, and k series motors so until someone either makes some custom cranks and better bearings rod,and main we will always be limited to certain numbers.

it will make more torque based on what?? Which vtec motor did you own?? Because neither VTEC or VVTLi produce low end torque..1.8 liters and low end torque dont exist N/A...You cannot have peak torque at 3000 rpm and maintain it long enough to make horsepower at 8000 rpm...Ive yet to see the torque curve on a 1.8 liter sustain itself that long N/A

[Celicasaur]

would the bmw engines not feel better at low revs because they have bigger displacements also and more cylindes though? im sure if we had another 700cc to make 2.5 litre vvtl-i engines we'd have serious grunt too! :)

[Carbonized_GT]

wow... resurrecting a 4 year old post.


4 1/2 year post.

[hapa77]

Fiat was the first auto manufacturer to patent a functional variable valve timing system which included variable lift. Developed by Giovanni Torazza in the late 1960s, the system used hydraulic pressure to vary the fulcrum of the cam followers (US Patent 3,641,988). The hydraulic pressure changed according to engine speed and intake pressure. The typical opening variation was 37%.

In September 1975, General Motors patented a system intended to vary valve lift. GM was interested in throttling the intake valves in order to reduce emissions. This was done by minimizing the amount of lift at low load to keep the intake velocity higher, thereby atomizing the intake charge. GM encountered problems running at very low lift, and abandoned the project.

Alfa Romeo was the first manufacturer to use a variable valve timing system in production cars (US Patent 4,231,330). The 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 L had a mechanical VVT system in Spica fuel injected cars sold in the USA. Later this was also used in the 1983 Alfetta 2.0 Quadrifoglio Oro models as well as other cars.