question about greddy sc and intercooler

[2000gts2000]

you guys say that the greddy sc cant fit an intercooler because ther's no room and stuff, and doesn't really need an intercooler anyway because the effects of heat soak aren't really that bad. now, from the pics i've seen, you can keep your after market intake you already got for the sc, my question is that if you got the aem cai, the weird one that kinda spirals around and eventually ends up in the tire well and behind the front left fender, would that kinda act like an intercooler, since it's suckin in cold air anyway? i'm just curious.

[Hetts]

no, it wouldnt. You are just sucking in cooler air... not cooling charged air. The intake charge temps might be a little bit cooler, but nothing like the effect of an intercooler or an aquamist system.

you want a short ram with a supercharger, anyways. try to keep restriction to a minimum

[2000gts2000]

i know i'm still a newb, but what exactly is "charged air"? how much more horsepower would an intercooler add? if i start off a supercharger w/o an intercooler, and add one in later, would i have to tune my ecu to have it? and what kind of restriction are you talking about when you say to stick w/ a sri? i mean, the pipes of a cai are longer than a sri, but they both seem to be close to the same width, how is a cai more restrictive? i'm sorry if i'm playing a game of 20 questions here, but i just wanna learn up on some stuff because i'm really thinkin about buyin a supercharger. thanks again for your info.

[Lilsupra]

Charged air is air that is forced induction from a turbo or supercharger. Intercoolers dont add horsepower they help u cool the air from a turbo or supercharger. It keeps the engine from detonating which usually happens under high air temps. They wont add much restriction since u usually jack up the boost from the supercharger or turbo via the stock wastegate. U tune from there. The Greddy Supercharger doesnt come with an intercooler cuz its boosts less than a turbo or around 4 psi. Secondly, you can custom intercool the Greddy setup but that has yet to be tried.

[Hetts]

Charged air is air that is forced induction from a turbo or supercharger. Intercoolers dont add horsepower they help u cool the air from a turbo or supercharger. It keeps the engine from detonating which usually happens under high air temps. They wont add much restriction since u usually jack up the boost from the supercharger or turbo via the stock wastegate. U tune from there. The Greddy Supercharger doesnt come with an intercooler cuz its boosts less than a turbo or around 4 psi. Secondly, you can custom intercool the Greddy setup but that has yet to be tried.


I dont know much about the greddy SCer, but i cant beleive that a SCer would only produce 4psi. A turbo with 4 psi isnt even worth it, and 4 psi out of a turbo will add more net hp than a SCer.

Charged air is pressurized air. The air intercooler piping is "charged air" because its already under pressure from the turbocharger/supercharger.

You cant "jack up" the boost on a supercharger from a wastegate; the only way to increase boost on a SCer is through a smaller pully.

If you want the effects of an intercooler but can not work an intercooler into your system, get an aquamist system. Run some searches on google or on some honda sites if you are interested in it.

CAI are more restrictive because they are longer and have more bends in them. They are also usually thinner as well. Get a nice 3, 3.5" short ram.

Yes, you would have to retune your car if you added an intercooler.

Something else to consider, if you run an intercooler system on a SCer, you are going to create a little bit of lag time... i dont know if it would be noticeable or not, but you are going to take the time to pressurize the charge piping and the intercooler as well, which is going to cause a substantial drop in pressure. Just my .02

[milesplume]

Charged air is air that is forced induction from a turbo or supercharger. Intercoolers dont add horsepower they help u cool the air from a turbo or supercharger. It keeps the engine from detonating which usually happens under high air temps. They wont add much restriction since u usually jack up the boost from the supercharger or turbo via the stock wastegate. U tune from there. The Greddy Supercharger doesnt come with an intercooler cuz its boosts less than a turbo or around 4 psi. Secondly, you can custom intercool the Greddy setup but that has yet to be tried.
uhh nice theorys guys but the Greddy kit comes with 8.5psi and it cant take a intercooler the only thing that might work is an after cooler its not that an intercooler will not fit its that it will be no good because after the supercharger the air goes to the intake manifold.

[larryd]

And its doubtful you'd ever be able to fit an aftercooler due to the amount of room it takes up in the engine bay. The manifold already sits out pretty far.

If you want to cool down the intake charge just run some NAS ;)

[2000gts2000]

I dont know much about the greddy SCer, but i cant beleive that a SCer would only produce 4psi. A turbo with 4 psi isnt even worth it, and 4 psi out of a turbo will add more net hp than a SCer.
why it that 4 psi off a turbo gets more power than 4 psi from a sc? i've read somewere a while ago that you usually get 10-12 whp per pound of boost, how much whp do u get per pound of boost from a sc?

also, if that greddy sc is puttin out about about 8.5 pounds of boost, wouldnt it be adding a little more than 60 hp?

and another question i've been meanin to start another thread about, but since i'm here i might as well ask. now, i know that a sc doesn't put out as much performance as a turbo, is it possible to use nitrous to make up the difference, maybe add a little more hp? if it is possible, how much nitrous would you be able to run with the greddy supercharger?

[S|Lv3rBu||et]

If you want to cool down the intake charge just run some NAS ;)


Or you could use one of those CO2 coolers too...

[larryd]

I dont know much about the greddy SCer, but i cant beleive that a SCer would only produce 4psi. A turbo with 4 psi isnt even worth it, and 4 psi out of a turbo will add more net hp than a SCer.
why it that 4 psi off a turbo gets more power than 4 psi from a sc? i've read somewere a while ago that you usually get 10-12 whp per pound of boost, how much whp do u get per pound of boost from a sc?

also, if that greddy sc is puttin out about about 8.5 pounds of boost, wouldnt it be adding a little more than 60 hp?

and another question i've been meanin to start another thread about, but since i'm here i might as well ask. now, i know that a sc doesn't put out as much performance as a turbo, is it possible to use nitrous to make up the difference, maybe add a little more hp? if it is possible, how much nitrous would you be able to run with the greddy supercharger?


I forget what the term is but essentially a s/c uses power to make power and a turbo does not. Since the supercharger is belt driven it does actually take away from the cars n/a power before creating boost. A turbo is exhaust driven which does not take any power from the car.

[fubarlphie]

I forget what the term is but essentially a s/c uses power to make power and a turbo does not. Since the supercharger is belt driven it does actually take away from the cars n/a power before creating boost. A turbo is exhaust driven which does not take any power from the car.

i believe the word you are looking for is "parasitic"?

[Gravel]

Guys, can someone please explain this commonly held belief that a turbo does not take any power away? Sucking in all that air and compressing it does take a lot of power - that's why a supercharger uses 10+ HP doing its job.

OK, so I'd agree, there is a lot of wasted energy in N/A exhaust, but you can't restrict the exhaust flow and claim that you're not affecting the power output.

It's a bit like saying that you can put a wind-turbine on the roof and get free electrical power from the motion of the car because it's not directly connected to the engine.

[S|Lv3rBu||et]

^^Good point, I've thought about that myself...

[Illusive]

Guys, can someone please explain this commonly held belief that a turbo does not take any power away? Sucking in all that air and compressing it does take a lot of power - that's why a supercharger uses 10+ HP doing its job.

OK, so I'd agree, there is a lot of wasted energy in N/A exhaust, but you can't restrict the exhaust flow and claim that you're not affecting the power output.

It's a bit like saying that you can put a wind-turbine on the roof and get free electrical power from the motion of the car because it's not directly connected to the engine.
you have to remember that a turbo charger is directly linked to the intake and exhaust.

any incoming air has to pass by the compressor wheel (cold side) before entering the combustion chamber. and any air exiting the combustion chamber has to pass by the exhaust compressor wheel (hot side)

are the two combined a simmilar amount of of loss compared to a supercharger? hard to say. but n/a performance is hampered on both systems. although a s/c tends to build boost immidiately and effects aren't felt as bad at low rpms.

I like the aquamist suggestion. and suggest buyers of this kit invest the extra 1K for it and tuning.

[Gravel]

you have to remember that a turbo charger is directly linked to the intake and exhaust.

any incoming air has to pass by the compressor wheel (cold side) before entering the combustion chamber. and any air exiting the combustion chamber has to pass by the exhaust compressor wheel (hot side)

are the two combined a simmilar amount of of loss compared to a supercharger? hard to say. but n/a performance is hampered on both systems. although a s/c tends to build boost immidiately and effects aren't felt as bad at low rpms.

I like the aquamist suggestion. and suggest buyers of this kit invest the extra 1K for it and tuning.

I would guess that the compressors on each system require similar amounts of power but that a supercharged system is a bit less efficient because there is still quite a bit of useable energy left in the exhaust gasses. My point was just that you don't get something for nothing with a turbo.

I would have thought that it would be quite possible for someone to come up with a heat exchanger equipped version of Greddy's intake header. Or perhaps just to use a Magnacharger with one built in (they do exist) if it'd fit.

[larryd]

I don't believe the turbo is that restrictive that it uses power to make power but ofcourse only a dyno would tell.

[6speedGTS]

A supercharger uses mechanical energy, for every 100hp produced 30hp of it is used to run the supercharger. The Gready set up is a well thought out system for a bolt on. They use the largest supercharger that they could fit because it will generate less heat to get the same pressure than running a smaller supercharger working twice as hard. Gready has the set up over 8psi with out intercooling, that's not bad at all for a stock 11.5 to 1 compression , and if you drop the piston ratio compression, add a smaller pulley you will be able to get more of it with out needing additional cooling.

Now for a turbo charger, it uses something similar to a jet engine, it has a air compressor, a combustion chamber and a turbine to run the compressor. Now running a turbo in not all free energy, in order for it to run in a engine there has to be some back pressure to spin the compressor on the exhaust side of things, an engine exhaust needs to flow freely as much as possible in a aspirated version there for using a turbo you loose some power as well to make more power because of back pressure, but it's main advantage is that it's more fuel efficient in making more power compared to a supercharger. Now to give you an idea how much energy is used to compress air with a turbo charger, a jet engine (turbine, like ones used in helicopters) will use up to two thirds of it's own power just to compress air into the combustion chamber!! :crazy2:

[2000gts2000]

just a couple more questions. is it possible to handle nitrous with a supercharger? if you could, how much could a 2000 gt-s handle? also, how does that co2 system work with a supercharger? can that work with a nitrous kit?

[Throttle]

just a couple more questions. is it possible to handle nitrous with a supercharger? if you could, how much could a 2000 gt-s handle? also, how does that co2 system work with a supercharger? can that work with a nitrous kit?


Honestly, it would be more reliable and cost effective to run water injection. With the water injection setup run 50% methanol and 50% distilled water. You would be able to run a smaller pulley and produce maybe 11psi which would add approximately 50 HP. With a proper tune the system will be reliable enough for everyday driving. Just don't forget to fill the water reservoir!

A nitrous system on the other hand could add about the same power. However the power will not always be there. It may also require you to switch between different tuning maps when using the nitrous. For about the same price you can run the water injection and have the same power output all the time. I have a direct port system on my car and if I ever added a SC I would sell the kit and convert to water injection. Just my opinion so take it for what it's worth. Hope this helps.

[2000gts2000]

I appreciate all your imput, but i don't know what water injection is. you say it's 50% methanol and 50% distilled water, how does all that work better than a nitrous set up?

[Throttle]

It injects a water mist into the intake which cools the air. It cools the air intake similar to what an intercooler does just in a different manner. FYI you can run 100% distilled water in the warmer months which costs a lot less than nitrous. The methanol mixture keeps the water from freezing in the cooler months.

Since the Greddy SC cannot fit an intercooler water injection is the next best alternative. By cooling the intake temperatures it decreases detonation which allows you to run higher levels of boost. Visit http://www.aquamist.co.uk/ for more information.

[slvceli]

Throttle, what do you think they would gain with just the water injection and not the added pullies. I would guess about 10-15 whp. They should get some really big gains from the smaller pulley since the greddy sc works for large displacement engines and wont run out of steam easily.

[Hetts]

You would want to run water injection instead of nitrous so you dont have to spray everytime you decide to step on the gas... but there havnt been too many people to boost + nitrous on a stock engine... soooo who knows how much your rods will like that.

Turbos do take power to spool the turbo, but all of the energy used to spool the turbo is the exhaust energy, which many people have already said is just the wasted energy in the engine. BUT, the added backpressure and restriction in the turbo does put some more strain on the engine, but not anything compared to the added strain of a supercharger. Superchargers, from what i understand, are only about 50% efficient... so for every 1 hp you make, 1 hp goes into turning the machine. I think its a little bit more than the 30 hp per 100hp (this is why i say you get more NET horsepower out of 4 pounds of turbo boost than 4 lbs of supercharger boost)

Also, the effect of the restriction in the exhaust can be greatly reduced with a proper 3" exhaust and downpipe...

Throttle, what do you think they would gain with just the water injection and not the added pullies. I would guess about 10-15 whp. They should get some really big gains from the smaller pulley since the greddy sc works for large displacement engines and wont run out of steam easily.


you arnt going to get much gain with JUST the water injection, saying the supercharger is still going to be reasonably thermally efficient with just the stock set up.

Water injection is used because whenever you put on a smaller pully, and up boost, you are going to be compressing a lot more air and creating a lot more heat. If you dont cool the charge, you are just increasing boost to deal with the fact that the air isnt as dense as before. Now you are just upping boost to have the same power, but still putting more strain on your engine. Now a water injection system can make a real difference in dropping charge temps. A stock setup with waterinjection probably wont help you more than a couple horsepower.

[realredcelica]

Or you could use one of those CO2 coolers too...

^^^ im with you, like the Cry02 system

[sbocaj55]

One thing people didn't mention when talking about the parasitic loss of different F/I applications is simple weight. The supercharger is just a beheamoth compared to a turbo that would output the same psi. That thing is heavy as hell. So the engine has to not only turn something with sheer mechanical grunt as compared to already expelled gas fumes...but it has to work a hell of a lot harder to get that thing working. A ball-bearing turbo spools a lot easier than any comparable supercharger. But for people who want instant boost...that's the downside. I think the parasitic loss with the GReddy kit is about 25 hp.

I don't remember where I heard that though. I think the aquamist system is worth looking into instead of a more expensive custom aftercooler. Maybe sometime down the road...

Also who said that you want a ram air intake for the s/c? Why? I don't even think a ram air intake will fit with this kit.

Also how would you incorporate the cry02 kit? would you have it cool the intake manifold? :confused:

[Hetts]

Also who said that you want a ram air intake for the s/c? Why? I don't even think a ram air intake will fit with this kit.


I did... just SC theory... you want an short, 4-1 header with a short ram intake... keep restriction to a minimum. I dont know if a short ram intake will work with the greddy kit, i havnt even looked at the kit, but im just spittin' theory in general

[Throttle]

Throttle, what do you think they would gain with just the water injection and not the added pullies. I would guess about 10-15 whp. They should get some really big gains from the smaller pulley since the greddy sc works for large displacement engines and wont run out of steam easily.


As stated above I don't think you will gain much HP from water injection with the greddy SC set at 8.5 psi. I would guess about 5-10 HP. The real gains come with higher boost levels. The more you compress a gas the warmer the discharge temperature. If you want more information how pressure, temperature, and volume are affected do a search on thermodynamics.

I worked for GE as an applications engineer on centrifugal compressors for 2 years so I have some background on thermodynamics.

[jlitman]

On a related note, can a 2ZZ with stock internals and compression even withstand 11 psi? I was surprised that the GReddy kit was rated at 8.5, which I thought was on the high side for what the engine can normally take.

[2000gts2000]

last night i started thinkin, now i don't know the first thing about this kinda stuff, but if you got some underdrive pulleys, would that help compensate for the fact that there's an extra pulley thrown in for the supercharger?

[slvceli]

As stated above I don't think you will gain much HP from water injection with the greddy SC set at 8.5 psi. I would guess about 5-10 HP. The real gains come with higher boost levels. The more you compress a gas the warmer the discharge temperature. If you want more information how pressure, temperature, and volume are affected do a search on thermodynamics.

I worked for GE as an applications engineer on centrifugal compressors for 2 years so I have some background on thermodynamics.
Actuallly I should have specified with a retune. Without a retune you probably wont see any gains (I have seen some actually lose hp) but it would just be much safer. The matrix owners with the trd supercharger all gained consistent 10-15 whp when they added water injection (and retuned). I know all about how it works I was just trying to make sure there wasnt something I was missing in regards to this greddy supercharger vs. the trd supercharger. The problem with the trd sc is that it runs out of steam with a smaller pulley but with the greddy sc you should be able to get gobs of power out of it imo.

[Throttle]

I agree that with a retune you will see more power. However, the Greddy is more efficient than the TRD SC. Therefore, the TRD SC will have a higher discharge temperature at the same boost level as the Greddy. So the TRD SC will benefit more from the water injection than the Greddy. Just something to keep in mind because the comparison is not apples to apples.