Is the 2zz really sh!t ?

[cruzerz545]

Come on, what are you real feeling about the Celica. Who is sticking with it? I dont need to no 300HP but it just seem this motor is week. As you can see from other posts I am have major doubts about the motor.
Say something to chear me up!! :-)

[CelicaSupra]

I have had my GT-S for over 2 years now. No problems, except for condensation in a headlight and the belt tensioner which were both replaced under warranty, other than that, no probs here. As you can see I have only had minor problems with my car, I know thats not how it works for everyone. All I can say is the Celica platform as well as the 2ZZ are as reliable as any other Toyota, problems begin when you start modifying the car and racing it, yes, it is a sports car but it is not to be abused or misshifted for that matter. As far as misshifts, well, misshift=driver error, any car you do that to, the engine will blow no doubt, the early 6 speeds are just easier to misshift.

[EzRidA]

Everyone always talks about how this car is this, that, and the other. It is true that the engine can't handle many internal mods or what not. Fact of the matter the engine itself is a champ. The 2ZZGE is a top of the line engine bar none. Yes their are stronger engines out there like a 3SGTE. However this motor withstands a lot of abuse. It has great flowing heads with a smooth feel to it. Am I dissapointed that we can't mod the car to our hearts desire. Then the answer is yes. Am i disappointed with the 2ZZGE as a motor. Then the answer is no.

[oldster]

Mine has been great, 2 years and no problems (except the CD player).

[Da Kine Guy]

If you drive the 2ZZ like a regular car then it'll last you a long time. But, I highly doubt that the motor will give you error free operation if you drive it like it seems Toyota engineers intended. If you hit lift at every highway on-ramp and every other chance you get often and frequently, then you are gonna have problems in the future. Not because of the added power the motor produces, but because the engine just doesn't seem to be operating at ease at such high RPM speeds. I already hear valve tapping in low mileage GT-S cars which are driven in a "spirited" manner. I don't care what ppl tell you, but this is not a normal sound. I have a now 22 year old Toyota Corona with the original engine and have put 190,000 miles on it and there is no hint of tapping to be heard.

I don't think that the 2ZZ is a bad engine, it'll last you much longer then if Ford of Chrysler tried to build something like it, but because of its very high RPM nature I would be very hesitant to say it'll last you like any other Toyota. This I highly doubt if you drive high into the RPM range frequently.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

It's not that its SH!T... its just not meant for things like FI. It's trully an NA car. This engine would give those B18c guys a real for there money.

[djm221]

I never broke in my engine, "abuse" it daily, and it's still purring like a kitten at idle, and roaring like a lion at 8,000RPM with 30,000+ miles (20+k with CAI/e).

[autxr]

I'm with djm221 on this one - Except I have 45,000 miles.

If you bought this car so you could mod it, then you weren't thinking much (IMHO). It's a brand new engine, don't think it can be developed overnight. Either be willing to spend the money to do your own R&D, or buy something where that work has already been done for you.

You want fast and unique?

Get a '77 Celica and restore it as needed. you will have the only one on the block, RWD, plenty of torque, etc.

Here's a little food for thought...

7.72 seconds at 80 mph in the 1/8 mile. 1.71 60 foot time. Can you hang with that?

That's what a mildly prepped '77 Celica can do (any first gen, really), probably at 1/3 the cost of your car.

Oh, that time does include a 100 shot of nitrous.

Like I said, spend money on R&D or use what works. The old "R" motors ahve been developed for 30+ years. We know what works.

Scott

[gts24]

Didnt you (cruzer) misshift???


If that's the case, I really don't take anything that a misshifter says as factual evidence...

[Keyshawn]

I don't think the 2zz is $hit, however, I do think that Toyota lacked the foresight to design the engine so that it can be modded fairly easily at a later time. Honda is great at doing that. I read in one of the mags about a high ranking Honda official stating that turbocharging the new Civic Si will not be a problem. Toyota execs don't think like that. Other companies are starting to catch on and do the same thing that Honda does with their engines. Dodge is planning to have their turbo Neon ready for Mopar to easily upgrade it. GM designed their Ecotec engine in the new Cavaliers and Sunfires to accomodate for turbos and what not later on down the line. Toyota kinda missed that opportunity with the 2zz.

[TRD Liquid Silver]

i still get a grin everytime i'm about to drive my car and i still take the long way home from work. does your spine tingle when you hit 6k-8300rpms, hell yes!! doesn't the car make you feel like a F1 driver, yes it does!! yes we could use some go-fast parts, but with all the mis-shifts i can't blame toyota/trd for not coming out with some sort of n/a or f/i kit.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by Da Kine Guy
If you drive the 2ZZ like a regular car then it'll last you a long time. But, I highly doubt that the motor will give you error free operation if you drive it like it seems Toyota engineers intended. If you hit lift at every highway on-ramp and every other chance you get often and frequently, then you are gonna have problems in the future. Not because of the added power the motor produces, but because the engine just doesn't seem to be operating at ease at such high RPM speeds. I already hear valve tapping in low mileage GT-S cars which are driven in a "spirited" manner. I don't care what ppl tell you, but this is not a normal sound. I have a now 22 year old Toyota Corona with the original engine and have put 190,000 miles on it and there is no hint of tapping to be heard.

I don't think that the 2ZZ is a bad engine, it'll last you much longer then if Ford of Chrysler tried to build something like it, but because of its very high RPM nature I would be very hesitant to say it'll last you like any other Toyota. This I highly doubt if you drive high into the RPM range frequently.

it's only the 6-speeders having 2ZZ-GE problems. i hit lift several times a day bouncing off the rev limiter (even though it's only at 7800rpm) in my GTS Auto, no problems. i'd like to think it DOES have problems, and it does feel unhappy in hot humid weather and seems to idle weirdly (thanks to the CAI, and the resulting dirt that gets in, my MAF gets dirty frequentl), but i just pop it in neutral, and it has a steady 800rpm idle, like a kitten purring. lift always kicks in at 6000-6200rpm and you can feel it jerk you in your seat, etc. When i had the stock airbox on, it felt bulletproof, even with the A/C on, in heavy traffic, in burning weather, and hitting lift at every light. sure i didn't go anywhere too quickly, but the engine didn't miss a beat :)

i've had water ingested by my CAI, and oil drain out from a bad oil change (stupid dealer), and it's still running. and despite all that, set the fastest n/a auto gts trap speed and et to date (although that's not saying much :p but still).

also, toyota never makes cars/engines to be easy to mod. it's always been like that in every car. even the supra. it's just that the supra and 3S-GTE and the old 4A-GE had so much potential, people tackled the issues head on. imagine 2ZZ-GE owners not letting up and working on getting every possible custom part they could, and harassing TRD eventually, 5-10 years down the line, you'll have a ****load of parts for the 2ZZ...

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by Oo DaRk StAr oO
It's not that its SH!T... its just not meant for things like FI. It's trully an NA car. This engine would give those B18c guys a real for there money.

Uhhh..no... The B series motor is better than the 2ZZ motor in everyway, in terms, of power, reliability, and aftermarket support!

[MilinGTS]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


Uhhh..no... The B series motor is better than the 2ZZ motor in everyway, in terms, of power, reliability, and aftermarker support!

only time will tell, my friend

only time will tell...

[Brian00GTS]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


Uhhh..no... The B series motor is better than the 2ZZ motor in everyway, in terms, of power, reliability, and aftermarker support!

:fawk: :bs:

[CelicaSupra]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


Uhhh..no... The B series motor is better than the 2ZZ motor in everyway, in terms, of power, reliability, and aftermarker support!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wow buddy its just an engine take it easy...
hmmmm....ok, so you are entitled to your opinion but I think a comment like this makes you look stupid. Fine your celica was bought back as a lemon, well, so was my friends 2000 integra gsr, and since integras are so rare and all I also happen to know quite a few other people who have had problems with their B18's. As far as I'm concerned the 2ZZ is as reliable as a B18, they do however have much better aftermarket support than the 2ZZ

[GTS LAID]

i dont really understand what you people are smoking... toyota engineers when they get together to design an engine (with the yamaha folk) dont really give a hoot how easy or hard it is to modify... they have very very specific tolerances for output power vs. reliability... come to think of it.. they probably could have gotten another 20HP out of the engine without any radical changes in their thinking. So why didnt they?? they wanted to buiild a reliable engine that used incredibly advanced technology (as some tuners have been finding out, ie GUDE).

Bottom line... the 2ZZ-GE will have plenty of modifications...

Bottom line... if you want the good stuff for the engine you're gonna have to simply wait... afterall the celica was the first 2zz engine car... now that there are 4 on the market (celica, matrix, vibe, corolla TTE) we can expect people to start getting off their butts and doing work on the car...

again like scott said in the other post about the 2ZZ... some tuners are not willing to put in the R&D investment, both monetary and time-wise, to try to figure out what this engine is about. I know i read about this engine from the service manual, web sites, tech articles every night, and i still cant figure out lots of the things that the engineers did...

WITH THAT SAID... if you want parts that are tested to the same tolerance levels as the original that still give you an increase then you can go with TRD... i hate the company to hell for not being more involved but fact of the matter is that just because they're not putting out products doesnt mean they're not prototyping or testing products.

the celica GTS is around 25K... to do the kind of mods that most people whine about not having it would cost another 25K ... so stop complaining and buy a Z06 if you really want it... me personnally i'm gonna get to that 50K celica one reliable high quality piece at a time.

[GTS LAID]

and about the person that said that the B series engine is better ... well then you need to back up some of the info that you're stating... how exactly do you measure better... or reliable... in terms of technology i can tell you that the 2zz is more advances than any B series... reason is simple... it was developed later.. it's got little to do with toyota or honda's engineers.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Very Well put GTS LAID. I owned an SiR so i knoe reliablity. Those engines have aftermarket support and thats it. I think Handa engines are just decent except the F20 (S2000 Engine). In my opinion the 2ZZ combined with the G series head is not only a phat engine but a very very very sophisticated engine. Also, putting out 180hp stock vs. the 160hp that the Honda's put out and VVTL vs VTEC (basically invented to be a way to make fuel consumption more efficient not create more HP) will kick the crap outta anything with an H on its hood. Just let the aftermarket see we mean business and that were not all talk. Also, another thing... how can companies put money into our cars when people do nothing but complain about them. Obviously it has nothing to do with the cars... but some of the people that own them. Would you put thousands of dollars in R&D for people that are gona turn around and sell there cars. NO!!! There are people on this board that love there cars... I just fell in love with my car again and you know what... I'd be damned if id turn around and get a Civic or accord because... everyone and there grandmother has one and they arent as good as our.

DONE!!!

Matt Lee

PS:
VTEC= Very Timid and Exhausted Civic
VVTLi = Varial Valve Timing Lynching Integra's

[CelicaLicious]

yep, cant compare the B-series to the new 2zz, i think the K20 would be a better canidate for compasion.. or maybe the new B16

[Keyshawn]

Wow, this is getting heated. Can't wait for yakkosmurf to enter this fray! In any case, the B series has proven time and time again throughout the years that it is an AWESOME engine to modify. There is no proof yet whether the 2zz has the potential to be as good as B series engines in this respect. I don't think anyone knows for sure whether it is a good engine to mod, or if it's one of those engines better left stock.

Personally, I'm not all that impressed by the 2zz in stock form. It only produces 10 hp more than the old B18C1 (and has less midrange hp and torque than the B18C1), and had to resort to an 11.5:1 comp ratio to help match the hp per liter output of the B16, which accomplished that feat almost 10 years ago with a 10:1 comp ratio. The 2zz is not the reason why I like my Celica. It's my car's styling, braking, and handling that impress me on a daily basis, not it's engine. But that's just my opinion.

[ishido]

"I don't think the 2zz is $hit, however, I do think that Toyota lacked the foresight to design the engine so that it can be modded fairly easily at a later time."

95% of people who buy cars don't plan on adding turbochargers or modding it. If they do, they do the typical Altezza mod or throw on some wheels.

The Celica was meant to be a nice out-of-the-box car at a target price range. Would you rather half some half-assed car w/ mediocre performance that you can find lots of aftermarket parts for, or have a solid engine that was built for peak performance and presents a challenge to aftermarket companies. Let's not forget how much HP we're already getting out of 1.8L -- but hey, HP isn't everything.

Aftermarket companies ultimately want $, so what better cars to make parts for than abundant, easily modifiable cars? There's a reason why POS companies like A.P.(iece-of-)C.(rap) exist. I'm betting that you could make more money off making fart cans than for R&D a real performance product.

Props to all the Aftermarket companies that are making real performance parts for our car & doing the research that goes along with it.

To hear my other rants, or just an extention of this one, visit:
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9007

... that's why I bought my car :)

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by cruzerz545
Come on, what are you real feeling about the Celica. Who is sticking with it? I dont need to no 300HP but it just seem this motor is week. As you can see from other posts I am have major doubts about the motor.
Say something to chear me up!! :-)
My best friend's GTS dropped a rod while coasting off the freeway in 6th gear at 60 mph. The back end then caught on fire while he was driving it. It's crap. (At least that's what he says)

Oh wait, that's not what you wanted to hear. :D

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
There is no proof yet whether the 2zz has the potential to be as good as B series engines in this respect. I don't think anyone knows for sure whether it is a good engine to mod, or if it's one of those engines better left stock.

Personally, I'm not all that impressed by the 2zz in stock form. It only produces 10 hp more than the old B18C1 (and has less midrange hp and torque than the B18C1), and had to resort to an 11.5:1 comp ratio to help match the hp per liter output of the B16, which accomplished that feat almost 10 years ago with a 10:1 comp ratio. The 2zz is not the reason why I like my Celica. It's my car's styling, braking, and handling that impress me on a daily basis, not it's engine. But that's just my opinion.
Very good points. That was sort of my feeling on it too. It's a good start for Toyota, but the engine needs refining.

[gts24]

Yakko, you just love to bring that story up over and over and over. :D

It's all good.

Anyways, I do agree that this engine does need some refinement.

So whatta we think,,, should we all be dropping b18's in our cars heheheh

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by gts24
Yakko, you just love to bring that story up over and over and over. :D

It's all good.

Anyways, I do agree that this engine does need some refinement.

So whatta we think,,, should we all be dropping b18's in our cars heheheh
I don't think the B18s are all that either. They are better quality engine than the 2ZZ, but there are better. I'd much rather have a 4A-GE (20 valve), 4A-GZE, or 3S-GTE. Those are very strong engines with lots of potential.

[cruzerz545]

yes, I did but that has nothing to do with this. ;-)
There have been over 6000 miss-shifts so i'm not to worried about it. Plus, I was driving normal.


Originally posted by gts24
Didnt you (cruzer) misshift???


If that's the case, I really don't take anything that a misshifter says as factual evidence...

[autxr]

Sorry, I'm not a big Honda guy. B18? Is that the oil burning engine that goes into every Type-R?

Go to honda-tech.com and ask the competition folks how often they need to top the oil off at a track day in their Type-R's. Of course they all trivialize it by saying "yeah, VTEC burns oil." Um, yeah, that's the little discussed "oil injection" system that comes with the Type R.

The 2ZZ on the other hand *is* a 4 stroke motor, it doesn't seem to require the gas-oil mix that the "better" B18 requires.

I realize that yakkosmurf has a friend that had problems with his GTS, I relize he knows all the toyota service guys that say the GTS has problems.

I know a lot of GTS DRIVERS (more than one) that NEVER go visit the service guys, and all of them do drive the cars hard (track days and autocrosses). Hell, billybrun was hitting near 14 flat in his GTS with just bolt ons and I haven't heard about his engine mysteriously blowing up (I'm not a big drag racing fan, but it IS hard on a car).

Scott

[gts24]

Originally posted by cruzerz545
yes, I did but that has nothing to do with this. ;-)
There have been over 6000 miss-shifts so i'm not to worried about it. Plus, I was driving normal.





6000 misshifts huh? sounds like a bs number pulled outta somebody's ass.

Members: 7,440, Threads: 19,304, Posts: 211,972
Welcome to our newest member, bluespecv02

That's how many members are on this site, So apparently you aren't getting that number here.

[cruzerz545]

Hey cheese ass, not evey toyota comes to this Celica board. Ever think of that. Go ass fock yourself. Always one ****head in the group.

The number is according to what a Toyota rep as told me. He showed me on his computer.


Originally posted by gts24



6000 misshifts huh? sounds like a bs number pulled outta somebody's ass.

Members: 7,440, Threads: 19,304, Posts: 211,972
Welcome to our newest member, bluespecv02

That's how many members are on this site, So apparently you aren't getting that number here.

[gts24]

Cruzer ,
I have nothing against you at all. I'm a little pissed simply because everywhere I go with my car, the first thing somebody says to me is " Hey nice car, I heard they are havin trouble with the tranny".


that is why. It is frustrating, and people that can't drive a 6 speed tranny are screwing it up for the rest of us. You said so in the Gude thread, that Gude is gettin pissed cuz people misshift and blame it on them... there goes the aftermarket from another great manufacturer.

Also, notice they have yet to drop the rev limiter in Japan or Europe.....

no offense to you man, I'm just sick and tired of the BS.

[marcus_GTS]

Hey cheese ass, not evey toyota comes to this Celica board. Ever think of that. Go ass fock yourself. Always one ****head in the group.

I think someone needs a nappy-nap.:rolleyes:

6000 is a REALLY big number, and is extremely hard to believe. That's all gts24 was pointing out. Don't take it so personally.

[gts24]

AT this point I'd like to see the total amount of GT-S 6 speed's sold in North America. So we have something to compare that 6000 number with.

[Keyshawn]

As far as reliability, I haven't had any major problems with the 2zz after 35,000 mi. Only things I've noticed are a squeaky belt tensioner, a relatively lumpy idle (compared to my Honda), and a worn out clutch (but that one was my fault. Heh).

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


Uhhh..no... The B series motor is better than the 2ZZ motor in everyway, in terms, of power, reliability, and aftermarker support!

which B series? the B18? it isn't much better if at all for power. definitely tops it in aftermarket support.

you're in no position to make a judgement on reliability on the 2ZZ...it's only 2-3 years into production and like i said earlier, the majority of 2ZZ owners (auto + normal 6-speed drivers) have had zero problems.

now if you want to talk TRANSMISSIONS, there might be an argument there :)

Personally, I'm not all that impressed by the 2zz in stock form. It only produces 10 hp more than the old B18C1 (and has less midrange hp and torque than the B18C1), and had to resort to an 11.5:1 comp ratio to help match the hp per liter output of the B16, which accomplished that feat almost 10 years ago with a 10:1 comp ratio. The 2zz is not the reason why I like my Celica. It's my car's styling, braking, and handling that impress me on a daily basis, not it's engine. But that's just my opinion.

if honda could have incorporated a higher compression ratio into the engine, don't you think they would have? they also had to worry about reliability and tolerances. and they didn't do it, but toyota did. says something about the 2ZZ.

and if you look at dynoes, the 2ZZ, stock for stock, isn't that far behind the B18C. in fact, the 2ZZ's high compression is what allows it to leap frog the B18C when it comes to mods like intakes, nitrous, or forced induction on the stock motor.

I don't think the B18s are all that either. They are better quality engine than the 2ZZ, but there are better. I'd much rather have a 4A-GE (20 valve), 4A-GZE, or 3S-GTE. Those are very strong engines with lots of potential.

definitely...TRD builty a 4A-GE that makes 240hp @ 10,000rpm, and the 4A-GE started out as a new low displacement engine for their sport compact/economy cars. they didn't go from 4A-GE out of a Corolla to Toyota Atlantic 5-digit RPM screamer overnight. I think it was a number of years in fact.

and so far, the 2ZZ-GE and 4A-GE have been similar in their development cycle. the 4A-GE would later prove to be a very reliable engine too, even when raced. i have a feeling, with a better transmission that was just as 'fast' but still easy on the engine in terms of sheer physical forces exerted on it, we would see the same from the 2ZZ. but it's speculation at this point...it's only been officially 2 years since the engine came out. Also, the transmission thing is easily solved by how the driver drives it, that's why it's called a MANUAL transmission. (ahem, autxr & co.)

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by autxr
Sorry, I'm not a big Honda guy. B18? Is that the oil burning engine that goes into every Type-R?


I've heard of some people having that problem. But I haven't seen it, nor have the Type R owners I met at the track had any problem with it. My friend's 2ZZ burned lots of oil. 4 quarts in about 15 minutes....

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by t2000gts
in fact, the 2ZZ's high compression is what allows it to leap frog the B18C when it comes to mods like... forced induction on the stock motor.

Ummm.....that's wrong. Where'd you get that idea. With a lower CR, the car would respond better to forced induction. Not higher. Also, the slight difference in CR between the two motors is not enough to make one respond "better" to mods than another.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by t2000gts
if honda could have incorporated a higher compression ratio into the engine, don't you think they would have? they also had to worry about reliability and tolerances. and they didn't do it, but toyota did. says something about the 2ZZ.
This is also wrong. Toyota did put a higher CR in the GTS, but at the cost of advanced ignition and cam timing. They have the same octane requirements as the B18C engines. Knocking is not affected by the build quality of the engine as you try to suggest. The build quality of the engine can help it withstand more knocking, but both engines have knock sensor and the ability to reduce knocking when it happens. Toyota chose to go with a higher CR. Therefore, they reduced valve and ignition timing to prevent knocking. They increased in one area, but decreased in others. It doesn't make that engine better or more advanced, it just means Toyota set the variable different than Honda. You can't look at only one variable and say it's better than another. That's just ignorant.

Honda sells the B18C in Japan with a CR of 11.0. The higher octane gas availble in Japan allows for them to use similar settings for valve and ignition timing, but raise the CR slightly to get better performance.

Please quit spouting off erroneous data and misleading conjectures.

[autxr]

I've heard of some people having that problem. But I haven't seen it, nor have the Type R owners I met at the track had any problem with it. My friend's 2ZZ burned lots of oil. 4 quarts in about 15 minutes....

Thus, since you have heard about it, by the often cited "yakkosmurf postulate" the B18 isn't very strong, it has valve stem seal (or blow-by) problems, particularly at high revs.

Afterall, if one person has had a problem, then all folks must have the same one (lets face it, you like to base most of your 2ZZ arguments on one friend's experience).

Scott

[gts24]

Originally posted by autxr

Afterall, if one person has had a problem, then all folks must have the same one (lets face it, you like to base most of your 2ZZ arguments on one friend's experience).

Scott


agreed.

[oldster]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

I've heard of some people having that problem. But I haven't seen it, nor have the Type R owners I met at the track had any problem with it. My friend's 2ZZ burned lots of oil. 4 quarts in about 15 minutes....

Was that the fifteen minutes before the motor blew up? If not, why the hell did he continue to drive it, obviously something was desperately wrong. :confused:

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

Ummm.....that's wrong. Where'd you get that idea. With a lower CR, the car would respond better to forced induction. Not higher. Also, the slight difference in CR between the two motors is not enough to make one respond "better" to mods than another.

ok i'll cede about the compression thing, but here you're wrong.

higher compression = it responds better to more oxygen.

the cold air intake alone picked up over 10whp (sometimes quite a bit more) on the 2ZZ, with many guys dynoed over 170whp with just the intake. honda guys rarely, if ever, see gains like this from just an intake.

the nitrous too, a dyno on an AUTO GTS with a 50 shot showed 60whp and 60wtq gains. it took over 2 seconds off zooq's time. you do remember the thread where everyone was saying that he'd be lucky if he broke out of 16s with the 50 shot?

the 6-speed GT-S with a 50 shot is trapping 104-106mph. with a good launch (such as one that Bryan H had on his famous run), that's good for low 13s, which lo and behold, is about 1.5-2.0 seconds faster than the average GT-S 6-speed 1/4 time.

i think you mean with the lower compression you can boost more, but with higher compression and low boost you'll get as much power as lower compression and high boost. the one up that the 2ZZ has here is how much boost (or nitrous) people use in daily applications. for daily application numbers (i.e, the 50 shot of nitrous or a turbo at under 8-10psi), the 2ZZ will give more power.

and on USDM cars, the difference isn't "slight" they're (the GSR and ITR) are under 11.0:1 and the GT-S is at 11.5:1, and as the dynoes and timeslips from people with more-air mods (even if it's as simple as an intake pipe) show, the 2ZZ responds better.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by autxr


Thus, since you have heard about it, by the often cited "yakkosmurf postulate" the B18 isn't very strong, it has valve stem seal (or blow-by) problems, particularly at high revs.

Afterall, if one person has had a problem, then all folks must have the same one (lets face it, you like to base most of your 2ZZ arguments on one friend's experience).

Scott
Not all of my arguments are based on that one experience. My brother has seen lots of failures of the 2ZZ-GE engine. Many are from misshifts, but a lot of them are not. I'm just relaying the information from a Toyota nut and experienced service adivsor.

The B18C probably does have a weak point in valve stem seal. I've read that before, and plan to keep an eye out for evidence of the problem. That seems kind of minor compared to the catastrophic (not all including a fire) failures of the 2ZZ that have been seen.

[cruzerz545]

I talked to a guy at monkey wrench racing and he seems to be excited about this motor. He said they are developing a bunch of internals for it.

Then again the guy at Gude said that even TRD is having a hard time with the motors and that they can't out source their engine build anymore because they break so much.

What to think, what to believe. I think the best thing is to hold out and see what happends.


-jim

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by t2000gts


ok i'll cede about the compression thing, but here you're wrong.

higher compression = it responds better to more oxygen.

the cold air intake alone picked up over 10whp (sometimes quite a bit more) on the 2ZZ, with many guys dynoed over 170whp with just the intake. honda guys rarely, if ever, see gains like this from just an intake.


I'll skip nitrous since I have no interest in it, nor much knowledge of it. Once again, you're taking data and missing the point. I agree that higher compression is generally better. Yes, it can play a factor in how a car responds to mods. However, the numbers you're quoting don't take into account a few variables. All you get by comparing the difference between how two engines responded to an intake is how bad the stock intake was. A better measure would be to dyno the engines with an identical intake for control, then dyno them with an open thottle body. This is the only way you'd be able to say which one responds better to the increased airflow. Once again you're spouting off data that doesn't support your argument.

Thanks for showing that Toyota knows how to build a bad stock air intake. :thumbup:

[oldster]

Please answer my question regarding the oil usage.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by oldster


Was that the fifteen minutes before the motor blew up? If not, why the hell did he continue to drive it, obviously something was desperately wrong. :confused:
I was just joking. The oil is what caused the fire. It ignitied first, and then the back end of the car caught fire. Most of the oil was running all over the pavement.

To answer the other question, he did keep driving it. He was getting off the freeway behind me when the rod let go and went throught the bottom of the block. The oil fire started underneath the cargo area in the back moments later. He felt the thud and the engine went dead, but he didn't know what happened. He continued coasting off of the freeway. I saw the fire in my rearview mirror and pulled into a parking lot. He pulled in next to me, still unaware that the car was on fire. He didn't know because the backseat and hatch area cover still hadn't been burned through. There wasn't even smoke inside of the cabin. The breeze created by the car's speed was carrying the flame and smoke away from the back.

Anyway, he pulled up next to me (upwind from me of course), at which point I told him to get out of the car. Once he stopped, the flames started to take over the rear hatch area. It was pretty scary.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

I'll skip nitrous since I have no interest in it, nor much knowledge of it. Once again, you're taking data and missing the point. I agree that higher compression is generally better. Yes, it can play a factor in how a car responds to mods. However, the numbers you're quoting don't take into account a few variables. All you get by comparing the difference between how two engines responded to an intake is how bad the stock intake was. A better measure would be to dyno the engines with an identical intake for control, then dyno them with an open thottle body. This is the only way you'd be able to say which one responds better to the increased airflow. Once again you're spouting off data that doesn't support your argument.

Thanks for showing that Toyota knows how to build a bad stock air intake. :thumbup:

haha, it's not THAT bad...the airbox on the Matrix and Vibe really sucks, but the one on the Celica (provided you had no butterfly and a K&N filter like me) was located near the grill...i could have probably messed with the plastics a bit and gotten a ram air setup done from the front grill (where the toyota symbol is and where the airbox is inches from).

the stock airbox was better for low end, that's for sure. i could spin the tires and even get wheelhop from powerbraking when i first got my car, with the injen CAI, it's just bog until 3000rpm.

and if you put an Injen or AEM CAI on an ITR, it still wouldn't net nearly as much power as the Injen or AEM on the GTS. you can't seriously break the comparison down as invalid just because the results don't swing your way. do people ever dyno with open throttle bodies? i'm sure it has in part to do with the airbox setup, but from what i've seen, the hondas stand to benefit more as the airbox location isn't that great.

as for nitrous, well, a 50 shot is rated 50 because it's supposed to net 50 hp at the wheels (at least the one zooq used was). and you don't have to worry about that airbox/throttle body stuff, a wet kit (most honda guys use dry which is supposed to be better to tune and stuff and look down upon wet which is what we're stuck with) is a single fogger that mixes fuel and nitrous mounted right before the throttle body. find a GSR or an ITR that showed more than 50-60whp from a 50 shot. i doubt you would. but the GTS routinely picks up at least 60 from the 50 shot. and you dont' even have to worry about driveline loss too much, it did this on even an automatic which has more than 20% drivetrain loss, before it was 136hp and 100wtq, after it was 196whp and 160wtq almost exactly. and it was a 50, not a 60 shot. maybe you can help me with that, actually. shouldn't the tranny have made a difference? you need more power at the crank to get the same power at the wheels as the manual. and the one guy who dynoed with an intake barely showed any gains. so why did the nitrous go crazy on zooq's car? would it also be a 60whp gain on a 6-speed or even more? (might also help considering what kind of power figures would enable a 6-speed GT-S to trap over 105mph when it does mid-high 90s before nitrous)

a better comparison would be a turbo. the XS turbo at 7.5psi on the 11.5:1 compression netted just over 250whp. i'm not even sure if that was tuned. how about 7.5psi on any of the B18 motors?

and lastly, the main reason the engine loves the extra air is because of the compression. ever wonder why some people in 6-speeds have ran extreme times (14.1 being the best) and trapped extreme speeds (101mph with bolt-ons) relative within our class of car? it loves cold air. my car even trapped 85mph (while running 16.6 et) in cold weather. that's with a 7800rpm rev limiter. i've heard of 2002 6-speeds trapping 88-90mph with the same limiter. that's only a 3-5mph difference from a tall 4-speed automatic and a short-ratio 6-speed! it's the colder air, my car was putting more power down than most average GTS(s). plus the sea level elevation, it's perfect conditions. you can even feel the difference on the butt dyno from day to day. on cold nights, you can feel the difference in power at around 3000-4000rpm (the first torque peak). and then in hotter weather (like right now :() it's nowhere near as hard-pulling as it felt a few weeks/months ago. i haven't noticed the same in any of the B18 hondas.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by t2000gts

and if you look at dynoes, the 2ZZ, stock for stock, isn't that far behind the B18C.


I don

[ringthree]

Originally posted by gts24



agreed.

Thrice agreed. Yakko, I love your commentary but I muxt say that your ancedote is just that, a freak occurance that happened once. It does get old after a while. And the more impressive point is that it becomes LESS significant over time because the number of Celicas on the road continues to increase.

Also what are the other major problems that your brother has encountered?

[t2000gts]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Keyshawn
[B]

I don

[Keyshawn]

But the fact that people still compare the 2zz to the "obsolete" B18C shows how groundbreaking that engine was almost a decade ago and how competitive an engine it still is, compared with brand new engines like the 2zz. I'm not saying the stock 2zz sucks, but it just isn't the landmark engine the B series is.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by t2000gts

you can't seriously break the comparison down as invalid just because the results don't swing your way.
I could care less about the results. I was just saying your comparison was invalid. I remember a while back someone trying to say one engine was better than the other because one engine's computer read temperatures that were lower than the other one. They didn't mention where the temp sensors were located. When you looked at it, the one sensor was closer to the filter where the air was warmer. The computers were designed to take the temp data from that point to make their fuel calculations. The fact that one was using a higher number didn't matter because they weren't using the same algorithm.

Likewise, you're trying to make a comparison of two things that are changed by other factors. Does a GTS with a stock intake and 10.0:1 CR pistons see less power with the Injen CAI than a GTS with a stock intake and 11.5 CR pistons? That's a valid comparison.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by t2000gts

a better comparison would be a turbo. the XS turbo at 7.5psi on the 11.5:1 compression netted just over 250whp. i'm not even sure if that was tuned. how about 7.5psi on any of the B18 motors?


I don't know anyone who's put nitrous on a Type R. I typically skip the topic since it seems pointless. I'm a roadracer, end of story.

As for the turbo, you don't strike me as someone who's done the work before. How much power you get out of a turbo or SC is not about boost or CR. It's about tuning and fuel management. Do you have a ignition retarder that will scale back your ignition timing as the boost level increases? If you do, then you can get more power out of the same amount of boost and go to higher boost levels. To run 11.5:1 CR with 7.5 psi, you have to detune some things to avoid pre-ignition. To run 7.5 psi on 10.6:1 CR you have to do the same thing. You can't really compare turbo applications becaue they aren't bolt on. Tuning is required to get that kind of power out of them. Who does the best tuning will be who has the most power.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by t2000gts


no way, the B18C was tuned by Honda for a 1999-2000 year car. the engine at least, is hand built. that and better breathing overall is why it achieves 195hp out of 1.8l, but the telling tale is the torque numbers. more from the GT-S thanks to the VVT-i. and 180hp without breaking a sweat. (195-200hp at the crank with just the CAI).

and the mid-range advantages of the B18 motors over the 2ZZ is overrated:

http://subzero.mine.nu/celica/gts_vs_type-r_dyno_chart.jpg

http://subzero.mine.nu/celica/gts_vs_gsr_dyno_chart.jpg
You keep pulling up this dyno plot, but it's just a single data point. You need to go get one of the 2000 Type R dyno plots that show it doing almost 170 whp. It mentioned all the time on this board how some cars are stronger than others. Try doing this again with a 2000 model of each car with similar miles.

[t2000gts]

well, that's why i said i thought it wasn't tuned, how about an untuned GSR with just a 7.5psi turbo "bolted on"? sure you can tune it for more power, but you can tune anything for more power, even the stock airbox. that's why i keep trying to refer to 'untuned' scenarios where that wouldn't be as much of a factor. and that's nothing to do with what my original statement, which was:

"...in fact, the 2ZZ's high compression is what allows it to leap frog the B18C when it comes to mods like intakes, nitrous, or forced induction on the stock motor..."

and that's just fact, you can't refute that. the GTS doesn't pick up such gains from intakes, nitrous, or turboes because the stock airbox sucked, or that they were tuned (the nitrous/intake guys aren't tuned at ALL). i'm just talking about bolt-on applications for more air, and if you compare that to the B-series motors, any of them, they don't respond as well. you keep trying to bring in other things like airboxes, tuning, or that you just don't pay attention to things like nitrous (which would've been a perfect example to judge a stock setup's affinity for more oxygen).

this isn't a big enough issue to devote this much time arguing over in the first place, because plenty of other factors exist (which you spared no expense to point out at every turn) to think about as well in terms of tuning the entire car.

You keep pulling up this dyno plot, but it's just a single data point. You need to go get one of the 2000 Type R dyno plots that show it doing almost 170 whp. It mentioned all the time on this board how some cars are stronger than others. Try doing this again with a 2000 model of each car with similar miles

suit yourself, the GTS motor wasn't even broken in for those dynoes (430 miles), while i'm assuming the GSR/ITR motors were as they were '99 models. and from personal experience, the 2ZZ picks up decent power by the time it hits 10k miles. all auto GTS(s) i've test driven and my own had complete lack of any low end grunt, for even NORMAL driving (a few other members posted the same thing in an auto GTS thread in one of the forums just recently) while at 8-10k miles, i was hitting 0-60 in under 8.5-9 seconds with the stock airbox (a feat considering how slow it was before).

another indication of that 'affinity for air' thing i mentioned above is dynoing without correction, an ITR and a GTS in cold weather and in hot weather, the GTS will show a greater disparity and gain in colder weather (upwards of 175-180whp in just 40-50 F).

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by t2000gts


no way, the B18C was tuned by Honda for a 1999-2000 year car. the engine at least, is hand built. that and better breathing overall is why it achieves 195hp out of 1.8l, but the telling tale is the torque numbers. more from the GT-S thanks to the VVT-i. and 180hp without breaking a sweat. (195-200hp at the crank with just the CAI).

Actually, the B18C (GSR engine) has been around in the US since 1994. What you're referring to is the B18C5 (Type R engine), which has been around in the US since '97.

And those dyno comparisons are with an exceptionally weak Type R engine. Most dynos I've seen for stock Type R's top out at about 165-170 hp.

[MarkyMark]

I dont like the engine....I wish i knew more about cars before I got the celica. Any engine thats built for all top end is just insane....

[autxr]

I can agree with MarkyMark on that one. the longer I own the Celica, the more I wish I had the torque of a BMW 6 cylinder...

I'd want the same thing if I had a Type R.

Scott

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


Actually, the B18C (GSR engine) has been around in the US since 1994. What you're referring to is the B18C5 (Type R engine), which has been around in the US since '97.

And those dyno comparisons are with an exceptionally weak Type R engine. Most dynos I've seen for stock Type R's top out at about 165-170 hp.
Thank you. That's what I was saying...

[ZIGGY GTS]

Damn, this thread got heated very fast...Well ya know what, i'm not even going to argue this whole point because Keyshawn and Yakko already did it for me.. and to think this whole thing started because of one sentence....Anyways, alot of u guys can say what u want, but face it...the 2zz was made to play catch up with the old trusty B series engine..Even, Keyshawn(we coo) who sounds like a knowledgable Celica owner is willing to admit it....As for the other people who insist on arguing and talkin thrash on me about me sounding stupid, Ive had experience with both powerplants, and yes, i loved my celica as much as u guys do..but the fact is the 2zz is behind...Try to talk thrash after u have had experience with both..! Seems like some peeps( not all) in here just have too much pride in thier cars too accept a given fact...Pride is fine, but knowledge means more...and while i'm on the subject of knowledge....My good buddy Matt aka: "dark star" yeah, seems like u are one these peeps who like to talk trash and not know what u are talkin about...U say u had a turbo SiR civic? riiight, why would someone who says he had a motor(B16 Turbo) that could easily put out 300 or more horses to the wheels, get rid of it and buy a freakin automatic GT? And u like to talk **** on hondas? hell, try talkin **** when u actually have a celica that can hang...and oh yeah, your little VTEC acronyms are pretty stupid..i see u like to boost ur ego by using those..you know what, why dont u try boosting ur car instead, so u wont lose to stock civc DX 5spds.

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by GTS LAID
and about the person that said that the B series engine is better ... well then you need to back up some of the info that you're stating... how exactly do you measure better... or reliable... in terms of technology i can tell you that the 2zz is more advances than any B series... reason is simple... it was developed later.. it's got little to do with toyota or honda's engineers.

Why do i say the B series is a better engine?

okay, lets break it down.

Reliability- U can beat a Honda B series down to the ground, repeated abusive driving, Forced induction, and the missshift issue? Well, they dont blow with a missshift. I've been in an ITR that was misshifted, and it took it like Mike Tyson. Oh yeah, my tired old B18A has 135,000 hard earned abused miles, and it keeps on ticking like a fukin rolex, and I still run the crap out of it... Lets see a GT-S do that!In fact, i cant seem to blow it up so i can pull it out and swap a B16A or a B18C1 in it..

Aftermarket-Man, i'm not even going to touch this subject because any idiot knows that u take a stock ITR, around 1000 bucks, and a trip to a good tuner and u get a high 13 second car..And this can be repeated with a B16, or a B18..

Engineering-The "B" started it all..the motor was designed to be beat like a horse...It will take modifications very well, give decent gas mileage even when tricked out. Yes the 2ZZ is an advanced design, but it still doesnt measure up....Toyota designed it to counteract a motor that was around since 1990..Hmm let me see..it took them 10 years to design this engine, and its still isnt perfect...

[Auto[BoT]_GTS]

Hey autxr im in the process of restoring my first car a 79 celica gt 5spd....any help?

[Auto[BoT]_GTS]

I think the 3s-gte is a better motor than the b-series motors....imo

[NSX_GTR_LM]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS
Damn, this thread got heated very fast...Well ya know what, i'm not even going to argue this whole point because Keyshawn and Yakko already did it for me.. and to think this whole thing started because of one sentence....Anyways, alot of u guys can say what u want, but face it...the 2zz was made to play catch up with the old trusty B series engine..Even, Keyshawn(we coo) who sounds like a knowledgable Celica owner is willing to admit it....As for the other people who insist on arguing and talkin thrash on me about me sounding stupid, Ive had experience with both powerplants, and yes, i loved my celica as much as u guys do..but the fact is the 2zz is behind...Try to talk thrash after u have had experience with both..! Seems like some peeps( not all) in here just have too much pride in thier cars too accept a given fact...Pride is fine, but knowledge means more...and while i'm on the subject of knowledge....My good buddy Matt aka: "dark star" yeah, seems like u are one these peeps who like to talk trash and not know what u are talkin about...U say u had a turbo SiR civic? riiight, why would someone who says he had a motor(B16 Turbo) that could easily put out 300 or more horses to the wheels, get rid of it and buy a freakin automatic GT? And u like to talk **** on hondas? hell, try talkin **** when u actually have a celica that can hang...and oh yeah, your little VTEC acronyms are pretty stupid..i see u like to boost ur ego by using those..you know what, why dont u try boosting ur car instead, so u wont lose to stock civc DX 5spds.


actually, darkstar's car is the turbo prototype for the celica, so his car should be finished in a couple weeks. That is when he is getting a 5 speed GT. Maybe you shouldn't talk smack about people you dont know. He is helping west covina bring turbo to all of us GT's, and hopefully the GTS people are next. Please close your buttcheeks.

[NSX_GTR_LM]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


Why do i say the B series is a better engine?

okay, lets break it down.

Reliability- U can beat a Honda B series down to the ground, repeated abusive driving, Forced induction, and the missshift issue? Well, they dont blow with a missshift. I've been in an ITR that was misshifted, and it took it like Mike Tyson. Oh yeah, my tired old B18A has 135,000 hard earned abused miles, and it keeps on ticking like a fukin rolex, and I still run the crap out of it... Lets see a GT-S do that!In fact, i cant seem to blow it up so i can pull it out and swap a B16A or a B18C1 in it..

Aftermarket-Man, i'm not even going to touch this subject because any idiot knows that u take a stock ITR, around 1000 bucks, and a trip to a good tuner and u get a high 13 second car..And this can be repeated with a B16, or a B18..

Engineering-The "B" started it all..the motor was designed to be beat like a horse...It will take modifications very well, give decent gas mileage even when tricked out. Yes the 2ZZ is an advanced design, but it still doesnt measure up....Toyota designed it to counteract a motor that was around since 1990..Hmm let me see..it took them 10 years to design this engine, and its still isnt perfect...

You have absolutely no clue what you are talkin about. Please show me a GTS with 135,000 miles on it, PERIOD. The car hasn't been around long enough. Only time will tell.

Go misshift any car, and it wont take it like a champ if its overrevved but 5K rpms. Your friend probably got the clutch down in time. if you dont believe me, go do it in you honda and then you can finally do the engine swap.

If you mod any car, you are looking at reliability problems. You just see more of them on this board because of how we drive and what we mod. I have plenty of friends that have had issues with there hondas after modding, but i wont go there sinc its irrelevant to the big picture.

Try to come up with some hard facts, how about this.

the celica's engine is definitely more advanced in technoolgy than the B series, more comparable to the K series (probably beats the 2ZZ), but more technology doesn't necessarily mean its better. It does mean better things for toyota engines in the long run though.

The B series is provin reliable and longevic, we do not really know about the 2ZZ yet since it hasn't been around as long, so we cant really compare. If I were to get an engine to build up, it would be a Honda, since it has been proven to take things well. It is also known however that by modding a car, you risk the reliability of the car.

Same thing goes for the aftermarket. When the engine has been around for some time, we will know what it can do. Once again, compare the celica to the K motors, its a little bit better of a comparison (though this one would be more to the celica at the moment.)

You have some good points, but lose the cocky attitude and try to see where people are coming from.

[kabal57]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


Why do i say the B series is a better engine?

okay, lets break it down.

Reliability- U can beat a Honda B series down to the ground, repeated abusive driving, Forced induction, and the missshift issue? Well, they dont blow with a missshift. I've been in an ITR that was misshifted, and it took it like Mike Tyson. Oh yeah, my tired old B18A has 135,000 hard earned abused miles, and it keeps on ticking like a fukin rolex, and I still run the crap out of it... Lets see a GT-S do that!In fact, i cant seem to blow it up so i can pull it out and swap a B16A or a B18C1 in it..

Aftermarket-Man, i'm not even going to touch this subject because any idiot knows that u take a stock ITR, around 1000 bucks, and a trip to a good tuner and u get a high 13 second car..And this can be repeated with a B16, or a B18..

Engineering-The "B" started it all..the motor was designed to be beat like a horse...It will take modifications very well, give decent gas mileage even when tricked out. Yes the 2ZZ is an advanced design, but it still doesnt measure up....Toyota designed it to counteract a motor that was around since 1990..Hmm let me see..it took them 10 years to design this engine, and its still isnt perfect... <br>

Ok this is bordering on asenine.. <br> #1, Just because 1 B series engine did not blow when misshifted does not mean they are all made out of space titanium or something.. Since yakko is so fond of pointing out variables here are a few.. What gear was it misshifted into? at what speed??? at what rpm???? The point of this? That doesn't mean jack ****. So a B series engine was misshifted at unknown rpm and unknown speed, but because a 2zz blows when someone revs it to 12k it's "not as reliable as any B series engine." <br>
#2, I Highly doubt that Toyota SPECIFICALLY built the 2zz Just to counter the B series engine..as if it were the only engine out there in the world worth talking about. They built the engine for the celica to get a foot in the door of this whole import "racer" market. The engine does have its flaws but it was designed for the CAR, not the B series engine. They saw a opportunity for $$$ and a market for the car and took it. Period. <br>
#3 Just because the 2zz came out 10 years after the freakin B series engine.. DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS IN DEVELOPMENT FOR 10 FREAKIN YEARS!!! HELLO McFLY! ANYONE HOME????!?!?! <br>
#4 You say the 2zz does not measure up...TO WHAT? The engine was designed to get good fuel mileage, and good hp #'s from a high revving engine with high compression. Because it does not act/perform like a B series engine it is crap? I say this engine EXACTLY MEASURES UP TO WHAT THE PERAMITERS THAT THEY HAD IN MIND WERE WHEN THEY DESIGNED THE THING. hell some newer v8's do not measure up to older engines from the 70s.. In terms of hp #'s ...does that mean all the new v8s are crap??? NO.
It means they have their own strengts and weaknesses depending on what the engineers had in mind when they designed the goddamn thing. I remember reading a post in another thread about tuners basically turning the "tuner"engines into dinosaurs anyway and then going with a stand alone fuel management/ecu system. Sound like what happens to most "tuned" B series engines? <br>
Well obviously the 2zz was not designed to make that easy. So that automatically makes the 2zz ****ty? Again why? because you cant throw a set of generic cams on it and make buttloads of power, its a bad engine and not worth the time spent making it?
Sorry to say Buck Rodgers.. but you've gone waaaaay beyone reality and into your own personal LA-LA land...

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Auto[BoT]_GTS
I think the 3s-gte is a better motor than the b-series motors....imo
I would have to agree. I'd also add the 4A-GE 20 valve to that list.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by kabal57
You say the 2zz does not measure up...TO WHAT? The engine was designed to get good fuel mileage, and good hp #'s from a high revving engine with high compression. Because it does not act/perform like a B series engine it is crap? I say this engine EXACTLY MEASURES UP TO WHAT THE PERAMITERS THAT THEY HAD IN MIND WERE WHEN THEY DESIGNED THE THING.
Please tell me how you know what the designers had in mind. Do you know them? Are they friends of yours? If not, the shuttie. I think some people are just disappointed with the 2ZZ engine, and that's fine. They expected Toyota to do something that would perform far better than a B18C. Many people feel they didn't get that. Personally, I would have rather seen Toyota go back to an engine of the 3S-GTE design type. For get this valve timing stuff. Go back to a 7k rpm motor that can handle 20 psi of boost on stock internals and still run forever. Why go with some high tech contraption that seems to be as fragile as a champagne flute.

[NSX_GTR_LM]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

Please tell me how you know what the designers had in mind. Do you know them? Are they friends of yours? If not, the shuttie. I think some people are just disappointed with the 2ZZ engine, and that's fine. They expected Toyota to do something that would perform far better than a B18C. Many people feel they didn't get that. Personally, I would have rather seen Toyota go back to an engine of the 3S-GTE design type. For get this valve timing stuff. Go back to a 7k rpm motor that can handle 20 psi of boost on stock internals and still run forever. Why go with some high tech contraption that seems to be as fragile as a champagne flute.

I agree with just about everything but the fragile part. I dunno how accurate this can be since the engine hasn't been out for too long, but we will see.

[autxr]

From what I have read, Toyota DID acheive their design goals.

I doubt Toyota took out a sheet of paper and wrote "B18c killer" on it then started to design.

The ZZ enginges are a replacement for the A series motors. THey are very good replacements at that. They offer mor power output per liter (HP and low end torque) and are almost 80 pounds lighter to boot (1ZZ vs 2ZZ).

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/9975/dataBySubject/engines/ZZ.html

Here's a page with some nice ZZ (mostly 1ZZ) info:
http://www.corollaperformance.com/TechInfo/1ZZFE.html

Sounds like they met their design goals to me. You might argue that the 2ZZ isn't the right engine for the Celica, but I just don't buy the arguments that claim it isn't a good enigine/old technology, etc.

Reading the article at Corolla Performance, it may be that we are the victim of all this technology. Lighter valves due to the sprayed on valve seats, the valves are lighter because they are thinner stems (5.5 vs 6mm) now, yes, they are easier to bend.

Scott

[CIN]

Guys i think that you are forgetting some important particulars when comparing the 2ZZ to the B18 Type R(I compare to that since it is the best Honda 1.8l engine with regards to power). First the B18 has been out longer. So after market support should be bigger. Are you sure that there are no internal parts from Japan(I did not reasearch so I do not know if there are any)? Just because there are none in the US does not mean there are none in the world. ;)

Now regarding Power. The B18 Type R HAD to be modified by hand to achieve 200ps in Japan(initially there was only one engineer doing the work with 4 more added later to help). It is a limited edition engine and there are only a few of them. The 2ZZ produces 192ps in stock form and is made in much larger quantities and not modified by hand like the B18TR. Trd has a 2ZZ equipped in the celica over at Japan which has got some tuning inhouse but still not as extensive as the Type R motors, yet it produces about 220ps. How is that about power. Also remember that because an engine is new does not mean that it will be more powerful. New cars have to be cleaner and this reduces power.

Remember that the 2ZZ is a new engine and it needs more time to find the limits of what it can pull out.

Finally what did you expect from the 2ZZ some 150BHP/Liter stock? The B18 got over 100hp/liter and that is race car territory. The 2ZZ gets similar power which is a great thing. Think about the motors like the 1zz which have much inferior hp/l.

The 220ps or so TRD Celica produces 20ps more than the hand tuned B18 Type R. 20ps more seems like a nice step forward IMO. Even 10ps would have been plenty. Just remember the huge ps these engines are producing from just 1800cc.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by NSX_GTR_LM


I agree with just about everything but the fragile part. I dunno how accurate this can be since the engine hasn't been out for too long, but we will see.
I agree. We'll see how it does. That's why I used the word, "seems."

[GTS LAID]

europian 2zz's make 190 without breaking a sweat... we're a bit more emissions limited...

i dont think anyone would argue with you that if you sent the 2ZZ for it to be hand built and re-inforced by some specialized engineer at the factory that it will far exceed the hp/L outputs of the type r motor.

[yakkosmurf]

Scott,

Good info in those articles. Thanks for posting them. This line made me laugh though.
A force to be reckoned with, this Celica and the 2ZZ-GE will very likely have strong aftermarket and TRD support. To remind ourselves that this is still a COROLLA site, let's all envision a 2ZZ-GE ZZE110 Corolla... =)

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by GTS LAID
europian 2zz's make 190 without breaking a sweat... we're a bit more emissions limited...

i dont think anyone would argue with you that if you sent the 2ZZ for it to be hand built and re-inforced by some specialized engineer at the factory that it will far exceed the hp/L outputs of the type r motor.
I like how you know the European motor is just producing all that power so easily.

Other than hand polished intake manifold runners, explain to me what treatment the Type R engine is getting that the 2ZZ doesn't have?

[MilinGTS]

im just quoting an article i read on how the type R is built
but each engine is hand assembled and checked

and if every part doesnt meet hondas specific specifications (gosh that sounds funny) they throw it out. Granted its not gonna make a huge difference

but its a small one.

i think its odd how no celica owners have had any experience with port/polish jobs.

you'd think thatd be one of the things all the N/A guys would go for, even the FI guys too.

I still like the Type R...but living in the Woodlands I can't own one.


Every owner around here has gotten their stolen or attempted to be stolen AT LEAST once.


I kind of know the people who steal them

keep your friends close and enemies closer.

I almost bought an R if it werent for the fact that I had heard about them wanting to steal an R a little before I went car shopping... you dont think those "JDM type R" motors are ALL from japan do you???

[t2000gts]

autxr and markymark are crazy :D i love the high revving thing. probably won't last as long as a low rpm torquey beast, and i love torquey cars now that i've driven some around a bit more, but i just have a thing for cars that just take off at high rpm, and keep going. i also happen to love bikes and open-wheel race cars. go figure :p

also, we should be comparing the 2ZZ to the K series motors...Toyota never had an answer for the B18, the 2ZZ was released at the best time so it could make a preemptive strike on the next generation of i-VTEC motors, and chase the last generation of B18s off the market (in new cars that is, the Celica had a great debut year).

and like scott said, the actual reasoning behind making it in the first place was because they needed a new motor. and it was PERFECT match for the celica's lightweight FWD chassis (as long as you keep a road course in mind as the object, not drag racing).

the K20A is very similar to the 2ZZ in both design, layout, and technology. hell, the RSX itself is similar to the Celica chassis in the same ways.

what the Celica with the 2ZZ is, to me, is a cross between the old Integra Type R and the new RSX Type S....technology of the latter, tuned to feel like the former.

I guess Toyota drove the Type R, and came away impressed like I was, and made a mass production contender that I think has the best of both worlds, the demographics of BOTH the RSX and the Integra, and everybody inbetween. and it can hold it's own in performance.

If we want to draw comparisons of the 2ZZ to the 4A or 3S motors, or even the B18 series...we need to wait at least 5-6 years so we can get a better perspective on how it turned out. my verdict...great motor, best n/a mass produced motor by Toyota yet (including the 4AGE 20v), it's just really hard to tune. it's built so it takes a rocket scientist to take it apart and mess with it. the 4A had no aftermarket when it first came out, but it was a lot easier to develop parts for than the 2ZZ. let's just see if the tuning industry can actually keep up with the development of new engines like this. so far the only problems we've had have been relatively 'small' issues like the materials the cams are made of. but essentially, look at the RSX< whatever's made for that, will work for us, (as long as they're both similar, mostly they are, but like in the area of cams, no).

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by NSX_GTR_LM



actually, darkstar's car is the turbo prototype for the celica, so his car should be finished in a couple weeks. That is when he is getting a 5 speed GT. Maybe you shouldn't talk smack about people you dont know. He is helping west covina bring turbo to all of us GT's, and hopefully the GTS people are next. Please close your buttcheeks.

Actually, I know that Matt is workin with wesco on the turbo, I also people that can vouch for how dumb he his..He is all talk and no action...He likes to sound like he knows what the hell he is sayin, but in truth is just a newbie who is going off what OTHER people tell him.So yes, I can talk smack about him because I heard how he is in person.=) And about my buttcheeks? They have always been closed. LOL

[marcus_GTS]

I still think that the problems of the 2zz may have more to do with build quality than with design. People are seeing some serious failures in the new M3 as well, but I certainly wouldn't call that a bad engine. All of these motors that put out 100+ hp/liter are working extremely hard to do so. If everything isn't perfect, and I mean really perfect, then I would EXPECT them to blow up. So if a small percentage of 2zz engines are blowing up for no apparent reason, I'm not all that surprised. As I've stated before, I would expect this to happen more often with early 2zz engines. The frequency with which this occurs should be much lower in later engines, after most of the bugs in the production process have been dealt with.

Honda avoided this on the type-R engine by implementing hand assembly and extremely strict tolerance controls on that engine. It was purpose built as a limited production engine. They used a depth gauge to assemble critical fasteners! On the other hand, the 2zz is meant to be sold in much larger numbers. Toyota (or is it Yamaha?) builds this engine on a production line with more volume-oriented processes. Even a company with excellent build quality will see deviations occasionally, unless they take extreme measures like the type-R. In the case of the 2zz engine, those minor deviations can be enough to put it over the edge. I still think the engine design itself is fundamentally sound.

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by NSX_GTR_LM


You have absolutely no clue what you are talkin about. Please show me a GTS with 135,000 miles on it, PERIOD. The car hasn't been around long enough. Only time will tell.

Go misshift any car, and it wont take it like a champ if its overrevved but 5K rpms. Your friend probably got the clutch down in time. if you dont believe me, go do it in you honda and then you can finally do the engine swap.

If you mod any car, you are looking at reliability problems. You just see more of them on this board because of how we drive and what we mod. I have plenty of friends that have had issues with there hondas after modding, but i wont go there sinc its irrelevant to the big picture.

Try to come up with some hard facts, how about this.

the celica's engine is definitely more advanced in technoolgy than the B series, more comparable to the K series (probably beats the 2ZZ), but more technology doesn't necessarily mean its better. It does mean better things for toyota engines in the long run though.

The B series is provin reliable and longevic, we do not really know about the 2ZZ yet since it hasn't been around as long, so we cant really compare. If I were to get an engine to build up, it would be a Honda, since it has been proven to take things well. It is also known however that by modding a car, you risk the reliability of the car.

Same thing goes for the aftermarket. When the engine has been around for some time, we will know what it can do. Once again, compare the celica to the K motors, its a little bit better of a comparison (though this one would be more to the celica at the moment.)

You have some good points, but lose the cocky attitude and try to see where people are coming from.

1. Okay, u must have read that statement wrong..My point was that I dont think a 2ZZ can withstand 135,000 plus miles of abusive driving..Thats was the point i was trying to get across..

2. The Misshift? I was in my friend ITR when he accidentally threw it from 3rd to 2nd at 85! The engine overevved but it didnt blow...Hows that for toughness? As for my Honda? I have misshifted my car(4th to 3rd at 115) And yes, she's still purring like a kitten.

3. Yes I do know that when u modify a car, u face reliability issuses, but the fact is that heavily modified Hondas will take the abuse and not give problems as long as the motor was built right!

[NSX_GTR_LM]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


1. Okay, u must have read that statement wrong..My point was that I dont think a 2ZZ can withstand 135,000 plus miles of abusive driving..Thats was the point i was trying to get across..

2. The Misshift? I was in my friend ITR when he accidentally threw it from 3rd to 2nd at 85! The engine overevved but it didnt blow...Hows that for toughness? As for my Honda? I have misshifted my car. And yes, she's still purring like a kitten.

3. Yes I do know that when u mobify a car, u face reliability issuses, but the fact is that heavily modified Hondas will take the abuse and not give problems as long as the motor was built right!

Please show why you dont think the motor can handle being abused for 135K miles. Thats all i ask, i know you think it seems this way, but I am still interested in why.

I am not denying that your friend misshifted in the type R at high speeds. I am saying that there is no way in hell that he let the clutch all the way out and let that thing rev to like 12 or 13 K rpms. This is what happens to most of the misshifts in the GTS. I am sorry, but neither motor can handle that stress stock.

And you have misshifted your car as well, but i am sure the same thing goes for what happened with your friend.

Now for my favorite one, honda motors will take mods as long as the motor is built right. Any car will take modifications if it's motor is built right :)

[NSX_GTR_LM]

and as for your comments about matt, are you saying that dave draper decided to prototype a kit with a moron? You say he is an idiot because you know people that have told you about him?

Let me say this, if you base your view of people on other's opinions, thats not cool. Have you ever met him in person or talked to him online?


Matt is going to make alot of celica owners happy when this turbo gets out. He will have helped dave alot, and I am sure this will be one fine kit, especially with DD behind it. DD doesn't half ass anything, and he wouldn't pick a half assed celica owner to help him with the turbo.

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by NSX_GTR_LM


Please show why you dont think the motor can handle being abused for 135K miles. Thats all i ask, i know you think it seems this way, but I am still interested in why.

I am not denying that your friend misshifted in the type R at high speeds. I am saying that there is no way in hell that he let the clutch all the way out and let that thing rev to like 12 or 13 K rpms. This is what happens to most of the misshifts in the GTS. I am sorry, but neither motor can handle that stress stock.

And you have misshifted your car as well, but i am sure the same thing goes for what happened with your friend.

Now for my favorite one, honda motors will take mods as long as the motor is built right. Any car will take modifications if it's motor is built right :)

1. The reason why i dont think the motor will take 135,000 miles of abuse is that I know and heard of some people down here in california who have problems with motors with 50,000 miles. Tickin valves, bent valves, engine hesitation, non working VVTI-L. I'm sure little problems will arise as the miles accumulate.

2. The ITR? yes he let the clutch out, and yes we both crapped in our pants thinkin we blew the motor.

3. My Integra? Yes, i let the clutch out also..and yes, i was amazed at how my motor took it.

4. Good point on that one..I'll give that to you..=)

Zig-meister

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by NSX_GTR_LM
and as for your comments about matt, are you saying that dave draper decided to prototype a kit with a moron? You say he is an idiot because you know people that have told you about him?

Let me say this, if you base your view of people on other's opinions, thats not cool. Have you ever met him in person or talked to him online?


Matt is going to make alot of celica owners happy when this turbo gets out. He will have helped dave alot, and I am sure this will be one fine kit, especially with DD behind it. DD doesn't half ass anything, and he wouldn't pick a half assed celica owner to help him with the turbo.

1.Yes I feel that DD decided to proto a kit wit a moron...A moron with some money to spend!!

2. Lets just say my opinions are based on someone who has talked to him many times, and also the fact how he runs himself on this board...As for meeting him in person...I havent and thank god..I think i would laugh my ass off at this kid. Trust me, if u lived down here in Kali, you would trip out on how small our car loving community really is.

3. Lastly, yes i belive WESCO TOYOTA will make a lot of people happy...And yes, I dont think DD is half assed, but yes I belive Matt is.

[NSX_GTR_LM]

you are entitled to your opinions. Just an FYI, i do live in cali for most of the time. I haven't been home in forever. I go to Harvey Mudd College in claremont, so if you are ever bored, lemme know if you wanna take a boy that misses his celica out for a spin :)

You guys have some factory freak hondas there, have fun with them, hehe ;)

Time will tell with the 2zz. you are entitled to your opinion on that as well.

I hope matt and DD get this turbo together.

[CelicaSupra]

Hey Ziggy man why do you keep on basing everything you say on what your friend(s) tell you or do. Who cares about your friends or their experiences, you cant base facts on your friends experiences, like well my friend misshifter his ITR and he let the clutch out all the way so I guess I'll tell all the celica owners Hondas take misshifts like champs, there are a lot of factors involved in this. As for Matt, I dont even know who he is, I have heard he is working on a turbo with DD but other than that I cant talk about the kid. You on the other hand seem to believe everything your friends tell you, you havent even met the kid but thats not the point Im just trying to show how you let your friends make your opinions or basically tell you what to say/do. I dont care what you say about Honda motors, or any other company for that matter(BMW, Lexus, Nissan...whatever) If the misshift is bad enough, the engine WILL blow, so just try to make YOUR own opinions instead of repeating everything your friends say.

[kabal57]

Originally posted by autxr
From what I have read, Toyota DID acheive their design goals.

I doubt Toyota took out a sheet of paper and wrote "B18c killer" on it then started to design.

The ZZ enginges are a replacement for the A series motors. THey are very good replacements at that. They offer mor power output per liter (HP and low end torque) and are almost 80 pounds lighter to boot (1ZZ vs 2ZZ).

Thank You. That answer your question yakko? I don't know the designers anymore than you do. But like auxtr said and I believe, I doubt the engine was designed with being a b18 killer the overwhelming goal as some people would like to think. And from the evidence shown, it looks like they did reach their design goals...
sooooo.
Do I know the engineers? no. But I can read... maybe you would be wise to look around and do the same thing before you start spouting stuff like that...
And another thing, just because people "expected" toyota to do something.. does not mean toyota is right or wrong for not doing stuff how people wanted.. IF they had wanted a engine that can handle tons of boost.. they could have built another 3stge type or overbuilt the new engine similar to how the 2jz is as far as internals.. but they did not.
So it appears they built the engine how THEY wanted it.. Sorry if its not to your expectations.. im sure theyre crying in their beers about it.

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by NSX_GTR_LM
you are entitled to your opinions. Just an FYI, i do live in cali for most of the time. I haven't been home in forever. I go to Harvey Mudd College in claremont, so if you are ever bored, lemme know if you wanna take a boy that misses his celica out for a spin :)

You guys have some factory freak hondas there, have fun with them, hehe ;)

Time will tell with the 2zz. you are entitled to your opinion on that as well.

I hope matt and DD get this turbo together.

Thanks bro, I know we all have our own opinons, and since this is a board full of them, its cool that we express them..Claremont? thats actually kinda close to my house...And by the way, by the list of your mods, ur celica sounds like its a really nice car. Peace!

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by CelicaSupra
Hey Ziggy man why do you keep on basing everything you say on what your friend(s) tell you or do. Who cares about your friends or their experiences, you cant base facts on your friends experiences, like well my friend misshifter his ITR and he let the clutch out all the way so I guess I'll tell all the celica owners Hondas take misshifts like champs, there are a lot of factors involved in this. As for Matt, I dont even know who he is, I have heard he is working on a turbo with DD but other than that I cant talk about the kid. You on the other hand seem to believe everything your friends tell you, you havent even met the kid but thats not the point Im just trying to show how you let your friends make your opinions or basically tell you what to say/do. I dont care what you say about Honda motors, or any other company for that matter(BMW, Lexus, Nissan...whatever) If the misshift is bad enough, the engine WILL blow, so just try to make YOUR own opinions instead of repeating everything your friends say.

Who cares about my friend and my experiences? I was mainly using those facts to back up my statements that the other homies were askin about..And about what I think of Matt? lets just say that my info comes from a very good source...And about my opinions on Matt? Lets just say that they very "educated" facts..And the statements about my friends ITR and my own car arent opinions, they were real actual events.

[TRDXYR]

Originally posted by GTS LAID
and about the person that said that the B series engine is better ... well then you need to back up some of the info that you're stating... how exactly do you measure better... or reliable... in terms of technology i can tell you that the 2zz is more advances than any B series... reason is simple... it was developed later.. it's got little to do with toyota or honda's engineers.

Very true!!

I owned Honda's before and the b series motors are a great in design with alot of "PROVEN" methods to increase power.

Don't worry guys, the Celica and all its motor variants is very popular. Once the aftermarket engineers do more R & D. More parts will develop.

An the other hand, the technology in these motors are so advanced which explains the delay of modifications.

[GTS LAID]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

I like how you know the European motor is just producing all that power so easily.

Other than hand polished intake manifold runners, explain to me what treatment the Type R engine is getting that the 2ZZ doesn't have?

First of all smurf what i meant was that it makes an extra 10hp without breaking a sweat... how do i know it makes this so easily... well I know that toyota engineers certainly did not lower their standards to product tolerance when they made the european spec cars... the only difference was that they were limited in the united states production runs by HARSHER emission standards.

they have emission standards in europe too by the way, and had they not had these emission standards then I can very easily see how removing a restriction can net even more power... no matter how much.

so given the same reliability the 2zz can make 190

take TRD's philosophy of warrantying their parts (which means they're testing to the same standards of product reliability) and add up all the outputs from TRD derived parts...

and the grand sum will be a car that makes somewhere over 200HP on a 1.8 liter engine while maintaining full factory warranty and backing...

if you'd like to talk about aftermarket tuning then we can talk once the tuners themselves start learning how to develop parts for this engine.. but an argument now would be futile in nature as theres very little out... for whatever reason you'd like to think of (GUDE's insistance that its the technology, crowers insistance that its a b1tch to mod, or even TRD insistance that its not reliable enough)...

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by kabal57


IF they had wanted a engine that can handle tons of boost.. they could have built another 3stge type or overbuilt the new engine similar to how the 2jz is as far as internals.. but they did not.
And that step backwards was very disappointing to see. With all of the misshifts and blown engines covered under warranty, they are probably wishing they had taken that route...

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by GTS LAID



and the grand sum will be a car that makes somewhere over 200HP on a 1.8 liter engine while maintaining full factory warranty and backing...


Sorry to burst your little TRD bubble, but you can get a full Comptech I/H/E on your Type R, be putting down around 175 to the wheels (210 or so at the crank), and still be covered under full factory warranty. All of Comptech's stuff for Acuras is covered under the warranty, much like TRD. And guess what...Comptech makes a lot more for the Teg than TRD does for the Celica.

[GTS LAID]

wtf do you keep making the comparison for... notice how in my entire post i dont mention honda once... cause i dont give a sh1t about honda right now... the question was who thinks the 2zz is a **** engine.. and i dont.. and thats what i talked about.. i understand you're hell bent on proving that your ITR is better... and for i know it very well could be... but like i said, comparing a hand built engine with a mass produced one is apples to oranges... if you wanna compare a blueprinted celica engine to the ITR motor fine.. a hand welded chassis on the celica to the ITR one .. again would be a comparison, but until someone does that and you have two similar products stop bringing up the ITR... of course if you wanted to compare mass produced engines... i'd be more than happy to discuss the gsr stock vs. the gts stock motor.

i'm sure you remember from a long time ago yakko how people would come on the boards (way back in the day) and compare the ITR to the GTS... and it was pretty much settled that the two cannot be compared... if you wanted to compare price, build, and distribution numbers we were often making comparisons to the GSR or what is today the RSX-S... thats it....

now about what you said about comptech.. i fully agree with you that its great that honda onwners can also maintain their warranty while modding... but i dont give a hoot. cause fact is that i own a CELICA ... so i only care about maintaining the warranty on it through TRD parts not comptech parts.

had i owned an integra and was making claims that the integra had no warranty'd performance parts, then you can come on and tell me all about the comptech warranty and how acura deals with it...

[WillyK]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


Tickin valves

Sorry to say, but of the 4 SI's and 2 GSR's I have come across they all have that same valve ticking sound, so does that mean they aren't going to be able to make up to the 135,000 mile mark?

[WillyK]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf
Why go with some high tech contraption that seems to be as fragile as a champagne flute.

Based off the 1 thrown rod you love to bring up so much, and the numerous other "problems" your brother tells you about but that you can't seem to tell us about....it's a fragile engine?

[gts24]

I would like some opinions then on how the RSX-s/r motor compares with the b18 series. Also a three way comparison of how the 2ZZ stacks up against both.

Since This is the new "integra" motor, that Honda has decided to base the future on.

[Chui]

I've not heard much about the K20A and K20C engines from Honda. I do know that they are torquier and more refined than the B Series powerplants.

With each successive generation of engines the amount of technology applied is greater. This is true for all engines. Notice the VVT-Li vs VTEC? Now the K Series engines have VTEC-i or i-VTEC. What they need to do is incorporate a similar cylinder head in the F20C engine [S2K engine].

I like the K20 better than the 2ZZ for only one reason: power delivery. That's a bit "unfair" in some respects, but my biases are due to the fact that I work in the auto industry. I "know" which delivery is the "better" one.

Toyota/Yamaha have a bit more work to do on their normally aspirated I-4 engines, but I can assure you it will come in due time.

[ZIGGY GTS]

Originally posted by WillyK


Sorry to say, but of the 4 SI's and 2 GSR's I have come across they all have that same valve ticking sound, so does that mean they aren't going to be able to make up to the 135,000 mile mark?

What I mean with that is loug irregular ticking with some 2ZZ's that have been ran hard...All honda motors have a very light valve tick its natural for them to have it. On the other hand, Toyota engines were known for being smooth powerplants., valve tickin is not natural for them.

[MilinGTS]

oh my god i cant believe were arguing over what kind of "SOUND" the engines make at idle.

this is so irrelevant it hurts.


*puts on shocked face*

why the hell are the ITR people in this thread and why are people flaming them.
i really wish people would just leave out comments that are fishing for disagreement

*bangs fist against head*

[FLO]

Originally posted by MilinGTS
oh my god i cant believe were arguing over what kind of "SOUND" the engines make at idle.



*bangs fist against head*

Have you been taking your medication :fawk:

[t2000gts]

i said before, and i'll say it again. 90% of 2ZZ problems only happen to 6-speed drivers who abuse their cars. and all those problems are usually covered by Toyota under warranty.

can a 2ZZ last 135k miles while abused with a manual transmission? certainly, as long as warranty work is done when needed.

can an Acura Integra GSR or Type R do the same? sure, but they will also need warranty work at some point in that 135k mile life.

can both motors go the distance when revved high daily? yes. at least if you don't stress it out as much. i rev mine to redline everyday, it's not about to fall apart on me (except that damned belt tensioner). same for all GTS automatic owners (i.e, same engine, engine revved daily, engine is fine). i think the C60 transmission has some issues that need to be worked out for reliability and daily driving, but it's great performance-wise.

ZIGGY GTS: the 2ZZ is a different kind of toyota engine. it's built more like some of the honda engines than a traditional toyota engine. you probably will hear valve ticking down the road. you can't hold toyota to a higher standard than acura and then compare them.

Chui: i think the better "power delivery" is because of two things. the cam profile on that specific engine line (K20A), and the fact it has more displacement. as you see from GSR and ITR vs. GTS dynoes, the GTS delivery is more like the R...the GTS cam profile has racing more in mind than daily driving. and i think the 2ZZ delivery is better than the K20 for a race track. the cam lobe that makes all the power is more aggressive on the 2ZZ. area under the curve is great and all, but you should spend your money on driving schools first if you're under 6000rpm for long periods of time on a race track (unless every corner happens to be taken in first gear).

[CelicaLicious]

soo.. boys and girls.. what have we all learned?

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by WillyK


Based off the 1 thrown rod you love to bring up so much, and the numerous other "problems" your brother tells you about but that you can't seem to tell us about....it's a fragile engine?
I'm referring to much more than that. There are more members of this board that have had engine problems without misshifting. There's at least half a dozen members on this board who had their car bought back as lemons.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by GTS LAID
wtf do you keep making the comparison for... Someone's getting a little emotional. Calm down...Beavis. It's not like I'm the one making this comparison, I'm just commenting on what others have said. Look at the comparisons others have made. I didn't start it...

This is the fifth post that started the comparison. Made by a Celica owner...
Originally posted by Oo DaRk StAr oO
It's trully an NA car. This engine would give those B18c guys a real for there money.

This one came from a former Celica owner who had to sell his back as a lemon.
Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS
The B series motor is better than the 2ZZ motor in everyway, in terms, of power, reliability, and aftermarket support!

Look...another Celica owner making the comparison. I haven't even posted yet...
Originally posted by CelicaSupra
As far as I'm concerned the 2ZZ is as reliable as a B18, they do however have much better aftermarket support than the 2ZZ

Another Celica owner chimed in with a comparison. I still hadn't posted on the thread...
Originally posted by Keyshawn
Personally, I'm not all that impressed by the 2zz in stock form. It only produces 10 hp more than the old B18C1 (and has less midrange hp and torque than the B18C1), and had to resort to an 11.5:1 comp ratio to help match the hp per liter output of the B16, which accomplished that feat almost 10 years ago with a 10:1 comp ratio.

So GTS LAID...go try to get laid, and SHUTTIE. I haven't said anything that hasn't been echoed by at least one another Celica owner. Sorry if you've got an inferiority complex.

[kaioshin]

Originally posted by ZIGGY GTS


What I mean with that is loug irregular ticking with some 2ZZ's that have been ran hard...All honda motors have a very light valve tick its natural for them to have it. On the other hand, Toyota engines were known for being smooth powerplants., valve tickin is not natural for them.

But it was already stated earlier in this thread that this is a new type of engine for toyota. You can't really compare this engine to all the previous engines toyota has made.

Oh and btw, I should prolly be hitting the 135 next year or so. I have 71k miles already (bought in July '00). I tend to bounce off the rev limiter 4 or 5 times a week and take it to or past red line almost everyday. The only problem I've had with the engine is the damn belt tensioner and squeaky shifts.

[JohNiE]

Originally posted by cruzerz545
Come on, what are you real feeling about the Celica. Who is sticking with it? I dont need to no 300HP but it just seem this motor is week. As you can see from other posts I am have major doubts about the motor.
Say something to chear me up!! :-)

Who gets what he's trying to say? Use spell check.

[Da Kine Guy]

135k miles is not that long for a Toyota. For a turbo'd one yes, but not a N/A type. People usually equate Toyota with 180+ mile vehicles, and I don't think the new Celica GT-S will deliver that if driven like its engineering suggests :(

[WillyK]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

I'm referring to much more than that. There are more members of this board that have had engine problems without misshifting. There's at least half a dozen members on this board who had their car bought back as lemons.

I still think it is unfair to label an engine fragile based on a handful of experiences. How many of those people who had problems drove the car hard, modded it or whatever? Do I think it's as strong as a B series engine? No. Do I think it's a fragile engine? Nope I don't. For Toyota's first try in this type of engine, I think it's pretty good. No doubt they still have some work to do until they get to the same level the Honda engines are at.

[autxr]

How many Integra Type R's are on the road?

How many Celica GTS's are on the road?

What % of Type R's have had engine problems? What percent of Celica GTS's have had engine problems.

Until someone can come back to me with real numbers not all this speculation BS, then go away. I don't want to know what folks think, I want to know the FACTS (there is often a difference).

It's easy to say that more 2ZZ's go bad. That's because more of the 2ZZ motors are made in a week than Type R motors are made in a year!

I agree that the comparison to the K20 is a more relevant one, and just one trip to ClubRSX will show the same problems, if not more.

Thank you.
Let this thread die now.

Scott

[NSX_GTR_LM]

Originally posted by autxr
How many Integra Type R's are on the road?

How many Celica GTS's are on the road?

What % of Type R's have had engine problems? What percent of Celica GTS's have had engine problems.

Until someone can come back to me with real numbers not all this speculation BS, then go away. I don't want to know what folks think, I want to know the FACTS (there is often a difference).

It's easy to say that more 2ZZ's go bad. That's because more of the 2ZZ motors are made in a week than Type R motors are made in a year!

I agree that the comparison to the K20 is a more relevant one, and just one trip to ClubRSX will show the same problems, if not more.

Thank you.
Let this thread die now.

Scott


:werd:

I tried to start up that comparison alot earlier in this thread, just never happened.

[Keyshawn]

There are many DIFFERENT and SEPARATE issues being discussed in this thread. Many of them can't be answered fully, yet, due to the "newness" of the 2zz. The reason why it's always being compared to Honda's B-Series is because the B-Series SET THE STANDARD by which all other n/a 4 cylinder engines are judged. Here are two such issues:

1. Is the 2zz reliable IN STOCK FORM when compared to other Toyota engines or Honda's B-series engines?
No one knows its long-term reliability, since the 2zz has been on the road for less than 3 yrs. SO FAR, there have been some incidents of failure, but official statistics from sources like Consumer Reports indicate that overall there are NO major reliability issues. In comparison, those same sources show that the B-series has been proven reliable for 8+ years.

2. Is the 2zz reliable WHEN MODDED, compared to other engines such as Honda's B-series engines?
As far as n/a tuning, since few have modified the 2zz beyond intake, exhaust, etc. it's hard to tell at this point. The B-Series has been proven to be a reliable performer when modded for n/a purposes. As far as forced induction, the 2zz has shown A FEW signs of being less reliable (possibly due to high comp ratio). The turbocharged Matrix blew its engine at a modest 7 psi, even when tuned by an experienced tuner. ALT had to turn down the boost on their turboed GT-S from 7.5 psi to about 6 psi. Blitz had numerous difficulties getting a 2zz to run reliably w/ a supercharger, which has delayed its release for about 2 yrs. HKS had both a turbocharged Celica and a turbocharged RSX, but decided to NOT SHOW the Celica project and to fully display the RSX project. Whether this issue will be solved by lowering compression is still unknown, since no one has tried that yet.The B-series (with completely stock internals and comp ratio) has many examples over the years of cars handling about 6-9 psi pretty reliably. The B-Series can handle EXTREMELY high boost with new internals, however it's unknown whether the 2zz can handle boost as well with similar internal mods.

[Keyshawn]

Here are two other separate issues being discussed on this thread:

3. Is the 2zz, IN STOCK FORM, a better engine than Honda's B-Series, or other similar 4 cylinder engines?
It's very similar to the 8 yr old B18C (GSR) it terms of power output, a little ahead at the top end, and a little behind in the low to midrange. The reason why I don't think it's an impressive, groundbreaking engine is that it's NOT head-and-shoulders above other n/a 4-cylinder engines, like the B18C was when it was released (which is still a competitive engine to this day) and the F20 (S2000) is right now. In other areas like gas mileage and emissions, the 2zz is again similar to, but not noticeably better than those other engines (all engines mentioned above are in LEV's - Low Emission Vehicles).

4. Is the 2zz, WHEN MODDED, a better engine than Hondas's B-Series, or other similar 4 cylinder engines?
Again it is unknown (sensing a theme here?) what the 2zz can ultimately do if modded. It may shine, OR it may fall flat-on-its-face. NO ONE can say for sure, YET. In comparison, the B-Series is a proven performer when modded. What IS known is that the 2zz is more difficult to mod than other 4 cylinder engines. It's sky-high compression, complicated cam manufacturing process (discussed in more detail here: http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21070), and VVTLi make it MUCH more difficult to mod than the B-Series engine. The 2zz is also apparently more difficult to mod than Honda's new K series engines (RSX), at least in the camshaft department.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by autxr
I agree that the comparison to the K20 is a more relevant one, and just one trip to ClubRSX will show the same problems, if not more.


We can compare B18C1s just as well. There are more of those on the road than 2ZZs. As for the K20, I agree that's a fair comparison. I visit ClubRSX a lot. They don't have nearly as many problems reported as over here. They report misshifts with no motor damage. Can't say I've heard that over here. We'll see how they are doing in a year...

[yakkosmurf]

Keyshawn,

Very nice points. It's nice to see a knowledgeable level-headed opinion from a Celica owner. I have noticed that none of them has tried to argue with you about saying the same things I say. Why do they get so defensive?

[gts24]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

We can compare B18C1s just as well. There are more of those on the road than 2ZZs. As for the K20, I agree that's a fair comparison. I visit ClubRSX a lot. They don't have nearly as many problems reported as over here. They report misshifts with no motor damage. Can't say I've heard that over here. We'll see how they are doing in a year...


WE've had reports of misshifts with no problems as well. Alot of folks that do misshift are embarrassed and don't want to bring it out that they fudged up their motor.

Remember early on someone came on here and clubrsx and was at an Acura dealership and they stated 2 cars were in for damaged mishifted engines.

Like was stated earlier... it's pretty tough to guage what is actually going on by just perusing these webboards and trying to make a consensus.

Also, the K20 dyno's stock for stock vs the 2zz, haven't gotten me too terribly impressed with their larger displacement.........

Hell, if we were magazine racers the dyno comparo btwn the 02 Celica gt-s and the rsx-s in SCC is pathetic at best. Not even worth the extra displacement if you go by those dyno's......

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf
Keyshawn,

Very nice points. It's nice to see a knowledgeable level-headed opinion from a Celica owner. I have noticed that none of them has tried to argue with you about saying the same things I say. Why do they get so defensive?

Just trying to stay objective. I know everyone is biased toward the car they own (including myself), however, there's nothing I find more ridiculous than the "Honda Sucks, Toyota Rules!" attitude (and vice-versa) that I notice some people have. That kinda nonsense reminds me of the 9 year olds I teach everyday.;)

[ringthree]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf
Keyshawn,

Very nice points. It's nice to see a knowledgeable level-headed opinion from a Celica owner. I have noticed that none of them has tried to argue with you about saying the same things I say. Why do they get so defensive?

They have there share of problems (and I spend as much and probably alot more time over there than you ;)) but you are correct they don't report anywhere as many misshifts (only seen like 2-3 of them). They do complain about alot of stuff on the RSX though, whether they are substantial problems or not is questionable but there are a few that have appeared in multiple cars.

[autxr]

No, they dont misshift or anything...

http://forums.clubrsx.com/search.php?action=showresults&searchid=135580&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Only 140 hits when searching for misshift.

Scott

PS: I didn't search for "miss shift" or miss-shift, or any mispellings of the word, just misshift.

Several folks mention no damage, others are just reporting how they have blown the engine without shifting at all (sounds like yakkosmurfs friend, looks like the K20 us just as high tech as the 2ZZGE!)

[yakkosmurf]

I wouldn't waste my money on an RSX either...

[Omni]

I wouldn't waste my money on this thread.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
4. Is the 2zz, WHEN MODDED, a better engine than Hondas's B-Series, or other similar 4 cylinder engines?
Again it is unknown (sensing a theme here?) what the 2zz can ultimately do if modded. It may shine, OR it may fall flat-on-its-face. NO ONE can say for sure, YET. In comparison, the B-Series is a proven performer when modded. What IS known is that the 2zz is more difficult to mod than other 4 cylinder engines. It's sky-high compression, complicated cam manufacturing process (discussed in more detail here: http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21070), and VVTLi make it MUCH more difficult to mod than the B-Series engine. The 2zz is also apparently more difficult to mod than Honda's new K series engines (RSX), at least in the camshaft department.

change that question to "is the 2ZZ easier to mod" and then the answer fits.

because when you say 'WHEN MODDED' you imply it's done being modded. in which case, with the mods we have available (specifically any mods that get more oxygen in there), the 2ZZ picks up more power than other 1.8l engines that don't have as high a compression ratio.

that's what i was talking about earlier.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by t2000gts


change that question to "is the 2ZZ easier to mod" and then the answer fits.

because when you say 'WHEN MODDED' you imply it's done being modded. in which case, with the mods we have available (specifically any mods that get more oxygen in there), the 2ZZ picks up more power than other 1.8l engines that don't have as high a compression ratio.

that's what i was talking about earlier.

T2000gts, read the first two sentences of my answer again. Did I ever assume that I know or anyone else knows YET what the 2zz will do when modded all out for n/a? No. Did I ever say that the 2zz is done being modded? No. Then what's your point?:)

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


T2000gts, read the first two sentences of my answer again. Did I ever assume that I know or anyone else knows YET what the 2zz will do when modded all out for n/a? No. Did I ever say that the 2zz is done being modded? No. Then what's your point?:)

the majority of people, even enthusiasts, or whoever show the smallest amount of interest in cars, will only mod their cars 'lightly' with bolt-ons.

that's what i was talking about, i thought i was clear, sorry if i was vague. when i said 'done modded' i meant you sounded like you were talking more about MODDING the car, and not what the end result of modding the car was.

in which case, what i said holds true. the 2ZZ responds better to such mods (light/bolt-ons) than the B18 until you get into more serious mods where it matters less what engine you're on, and more on what the actual mods you do are.

so

"4. Is the 2zz, WHEN MODDED, a better engine than Hondas's B-Series, or other similar 4 cylinder engines?"

if MODDED = intake/AFC/exhaust/nitrous, then i'd say yes. the 2ZZ picks up more power.

if MODDED = full out n/a or full out turbo/sc, then obviously we have no idea :)

[ArchangelX]

Umm...

[ArchangelX]

You know what...

I own a Celica..not a Honda. So for right now...

:whogives:

All this technical jibber jabber, just don't mean squat to me. The Celica is all I have to work with, and I'll use what I have.

I don't think I'll ever own a K20 or a B18 or even a B16 powered car...so whoopity do.

Kinda interesting watching all the bull**** technical crap fly back and forth...kinda makes you wonder who's more full of it.

:gap:

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by ArchangelX
You know what...

I own a Celica..not a Honda. So for right now...

:whogives:

All this technical jibber jabber, just don't mean squat to me. The Celica is all I have to work with, and I'll use what I have.

I don't think I'll ever own a K20 or a B18 or even a B16 powered car...so whoopity do.

Kinda interesting watching all the bull**** technical crap fly back and forth...kinda makes you wonder who's more full of it.

:gap:

ArchangelX, you're wondering why people always compare the 2zz to Honda engines? Let me put it this way: Simply saying something is "good" or "bad" doesn't give enough information about it. There always has to be some frame of reference in order to evaluate something as accurately as possible. That's why the 2zz is always compared to Honda engines like the B series and K series engines. These engines are most similar to the 2zz in so many ways, and provide a frame of reference with which to judge how good the 2zz is. So what's so hard to understand about that?

t2000gts, thanks for the clarification of your point. I just wanted to make sure what I said was also clear.

[autxr]

OK, then lets compare it to the engine that Toyota designed it to compete with.

The 7AFGE, and the 4AGE. The ZZ motors are lighter than teir predecessors, have better torque over the entire power band, are just as fuel efficient, and I suspect cheaper to produce (the block castings are much easier on the new motors, due to the floating cylinders).

Oh, wait, I said all of that about 5 pages back, but no one listened then either.

Scott

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by autxr
OK, then lets compare it to the engine that Toyota designed it to compete with.

The 7AFGE, and the 4AGE. The ZZ motors are lighter than teir predecessors, have better torque over the entire power band, are just as fuel efficient, and I suspect cheaper to produce (the block castings are much easier on the new motors, due to the floating cylinders).

Oh, wait, I said all of that about 5 pages back, but no one listened then either.

Scott
The ZZ motors were designed to REPLACE those motors, not compete with them.;)

[Omni]

Well, the way I see it the 2zz wasnt built to compete with any other engine; it was built to propell the Celica. The Celica was built to compete with other cars is more valid. The Celica engine was built to be a brand new motor with "better" technology than what was out, and if in doing so "beating" other engines that was fine. I really think if the 2zz was built to compete with the B18 Toyota would have cranked up the hp a little bit, and it can be easily done from what people have seen. If toyota would have made a freer flowing intake/exhaust, which costs would have been minimal since they have to produce some sort of intake/exhaust system anyway, they would have outpreformed the engine easily in the power/liter ratio. But really who cares, if Celica owners wanted a B18 so bad they would have bought a Honda.

In Conclusion: If you want to be a lemming go buy a Honda with a B18 engine. If you want to be a good automotive consumer, in the aspect of an enthusiast, buy something with newer technology (K20 or 2ZZ). If people hadn't purchased engines utilizing new technology, even though they may not have been as reliable as the old ones, we'd all still be driving around inefficient gas guzzling engines.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by ArchangelX
All this technical jibber jabber, just don't mean squat to me. The Celica is all I have to work with, and I'll use what I have.


Maybe if you had a better attitude and paid a little attention, you'd learn something. What a concept?

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Omni
In Conclusion: If you want to be a lemming go buy a Honda with a B18 engine. If you want to be a good automotive consumer, in the aspect of an enthusiast, buy something with newer technology (K20 or 2ZZ). If people hadn't purchased engines utilizing new technology, even though they may not have been as reliable as the old ones, we'd all still be driving around inefficient gas guzzling engines.

Interesting points, omni. Personally I think the Celica is solid in all areas (styling and performance). And although I consider the 2zz it's weakest link, I do think it's a competent engine. However, I don't think that newer technology is always better. I'd take the "old" technology of the 2jzgte in the Supra any day of the week over any of these new engines.

[Omni]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


Interesting points, omni. Personally I think the Celica is solid in all areas (styling and performance). And although I consider the 2zz it's weakest link, I do think it's a competent engine. However, I don't think that newer technology is always better. I'd take the "old" technology of the 2jzgte in the Supra any day of the week over any of these new engines.

I'd love to have a supra engine as well, but I don't think the 2ZZ is a bad engine. You can't really expect new technology to be perfect at first though. When the first Honda's came over here they werent very reliable either, but they built up in time. I'm sure its the same when Honda first started building their VTEC engines, though they may have put a little more time into it. Even so, with new technology and as complicated as its getting it becomes extremely difficult to test the engines for reliability before release. Im pretty sure Toyota did some extensive testing on this motor before releasing it, and it was probably very reliable for them. I think if we polled this board and took all the older more responsible drivers we'd see about the same results. As Scott pointed out earlier, the K20 engine from the RSX is exhibiting very similar problems. I think that the problem is the 6 Speed transmission and too man young irresponsible drivers, though the 6 speed transmission was one of the main selling points to me. I think if someone took the 2ZZ engine and mated the 5 speed from the GT to it virtually all problems would disappear. As I've heard from many overseas celica owners, it appears that they do no have nearly half our problems which leads me to believe its not the transmission but the driver. Also it seems all trims of the Celicas have the 6 Speed over there. The 2ZZ definitely needs some work, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you guys make it out to be.

[ArchangelX]

Yakko...

This thread has been done already.

I think to be honest..this almost the third thread in relation to it. And to be honest..half of the discussion didn't get good till the third page.

You can speculate all you want, but noone here has written proof of their facts.

It's all speculation, and people's opinions. Show me some written documentation to support these opinions, and I'll read it.

Other than that..all it is another bitching session, and a chance for people to show off their technical egos.

Maybe I'm just not in the mood for this today, but I'm really getting tired of all the bitching that's been going on lately. Mine included.

If you can have your say, why can't I? Because I didn't impart any profound knowledge on the "technical" discussion?

Gimme a break...I gave my opinion, just like everyone else, so why don't you get a concept?

[yakkosmurf]

The discussion was about the technical differences of the engine and how that related to performance. I believe that was the point in the conversation you expressed disinterest because the information was passing over your head. What you want? Technical info was presented to back up other statements, and you couldn't understand it. Do we need to drop it to a fifth grade reading level for you? I don't know if that can be done. Maybe autoxr to t2000gts would want to try.

[ArchangelX]

LOL..it was NOT passing over my head. That's for sure.

Forget it, I was in a bad mood this morning..heh. Sorry. :D

[ShadowX]

How does the B18 compare to the Celica as far as gas mileage and emissions? That something that no one has taken into consideration, and it's something that these companies strive to make advances in, even at the loss of power.

[CreepingJeff]

:popcorn:

[MicaCeli]

OK I was a Honda tech for several Years and have been into CRX's (Still Have one) for 6. Now here my point of view on this. If you are going to compare the B16 (Which came out in 1990) to the 2zz(2000) youre a Dumb A$$........ I have seen More B16's New and Used with Bent valves then I have seen em running properly........The B16 has 111Tq!!!!! The B16 trannys such as the y1 and the ys1 are junk also......and the b series trannys in general.......

Now if you are talking about the new K engines.....they have as many problems, if not more, as the 2zz (personal experience) WHy? its a new engine.........

People did not start seriously modding the B16/18 engine till about 6 years after they came out.........And to seriously Boost a B16 or 18 over 8 psi you will need to upgrade alot of the internals.......Thin a$$ rods......Yes it is easier right now but I have never felt Vtec hit as hard as Lift in the 2ZZ

Calm down and wait.......

Slava

[CelicaLicious]

Originally posted by MicaCeli
OK I was a Honda tech for several Years and have been into CRX's (Still Have one) for 6. Now here my point of view on this. If you are going to compare the B16 (Which came out in 1990) to the 2zz(2000) youre a Dumb A$$........ I have seen More B16's New and Used with Bent valves then I have seen em running properly........The B16 has 111Tq!!!!! The B16 trannys such as the y1 and the ys1 are junk also......and the b series trannys in general.......

Now if you are talking about the new K engines.....they have as many problems, if not more, as the 2zz (personal experience) WHy? its a new engine.........

People did not start seriously modding the B16/18 engine till about 6 years after they came out.........And to seriously Boost a B16 or 18 over 8 psi you will need to upgrade alot of the internals.......Thin a$$ rods......Yes it is easier right now but I have never felt Vtec hit as hard as Lift in the 2ZZ

Calm down and wait.......

Slava

did you have your coffee this morning?

[ringthree]

Originally posted by ShadowX
How does the B18 compare to the Celica as far as gas mileage and emissions? That something that no one has taken into consideration, and it's something that these companies strive to make advances in, even at the loss of power.

Here is something you might want to take into consideration. You are responing to a post that is more than a HALF A YEAR OLD!

[bLaH1031]

And I thought this thread was done in May. :wtf:

[MicaCeli]

he he I saw it up here........:)

I think I had too much cAff

Slava

[ArchangelX]

Jeezus....lol...

I don't even own a Celica anymore. :p

[XYRCNCP]

Originally posted by ringthree


Here is something you might want to take into consideration. You are responing to a post that is more than a HALF A YEAR OLD!
:rofl: I was like wtf when I saw this post come back.....

[Jersey Jay]

Originally posted by bLaH1031
And I thought this thread was done in May. :wtf: I thought this thread was dead too! My car was taken back from my daughter after she had a few too many fender benders. I bought the car new for her in Feb. 00. The car has 36K on it now and it never had a problem while it was n/a. It's been boosted for the past 3000 miles and still no problems with the car. Lets see my daughter got the car when she was 18 and abused the hell out of it. Great car by my standards as most Toyotas are, the only issue with the Ceil's are lack of aftermarket. So what's the problem?

[Auto[BoT]_GTS]

I know what we all can learn.........patience........only time will tell....I'm willing to wait.:cool:

[Toy Yoda]

It's kinda a good thing that this thread came back...
This thread happened before my joining the NC.org ranks, so it was interesting to read so much opinion, info, and passion injected into a GD thread (the above 3 are usually stuck in OT)

[trdgts85]

THE LOTUS ELISE WITH THE 2ZZGE ENGINE HAS PROVEN THAT THE ENGINE CAN WITHSTAND FORCED INDUCTION. CHECK http://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/elise-forcedfed/forcedfed.htm. ALSO THE B18 MOTORS ARE NOT THAT POWERFULL TAKE A LOOK AT THIS WEBSITE http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0210tur_celica/ PROVES THAT CELICA GTS ARE NOT AS WEAK AS PEOPLE THINK.

[alphasubzero949]

THE LOTUS ELISE WITH THE 2ZZGE ENGINE HAS PROVEN THAT THE ENGINE CAN WITHSTAND FORCED INDUCTION. CHECK http://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/elise-forcedfed/forcedfed.htm. ALSO THE B18 MOTORS ARE NOT THAT POWERFULL TAKE A LOOK AT THIS WEBSITE http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0210tur_celica/ PROVES THAT CELICA GTS ARE NOT AS WEAK AS PEOPLE THINK.


Hey numbnuts, do you realize that you just replied to a 3 year old thread?

[sheizen]

started 5/02, died, then started back up in 1/03, died, then started back up in 5/05. when will this thread die?

[XYRCNCP]

started 5/02, died, then started back up in 1/03, died, then started back up in 5/05. when will this thread die?

Today. :closed:

Note: when you search and find a thread...LOOK AT THE DATE, IF IT'S OLD, DON'T REPLY TO IT!. It died for a reason.