Miss-shift. User Error or Toyota's crap design? [Archive]

cruzerz545

05-02-2002, 10:50 AM

Post your points, try not to flame.
I think its a poort deisn, I've been driving my Celica for over a year, and I've driven it pretty hard at times. But when the miss-shift happens during normal driving conditions, that sounds a little fishy. Why would a company LET you shift into 1st,2,or 3rd gear at interstate speeds? I've never had a car that let me do that. Thats what shift stops are for, if people were perfect drivers, then no company would ever put those shift stops in.

-jim

oldster

05-02-2002, 10:55 AM

I've never driven a car with synchronizers that did not allow you to stick it into any gear you wanted at any speed, it's up to you not to do it.

atehrani

05-02-2002, 11:01 AM

100% Driver error. The question is, why would you WANT to put it in those lower gears at freeway speeds? Besides, you cannot create "gear lockouts".

And all the other cars that didn't let you shift to lower gears at freeway speeds. Where all those close-ratio, 6-speeds as well?

Your reasoning is as follows: "The car LET me drive straight into that tree". "The car shouldn't let me do that....". Uhhhh....hello?

FYI: Other cars have been mis-shifted, Preludes, Tegs, RSX's, even Bill's TA (a Firebird).

yakkosmurf

05-02-2002, 11:03 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with the transmission from a misshift standpoint. However, one of the things they teach you in design classes is to design for misuse or mistakes. The Celica obviously isn't done that way. I didn't find the car that easy to misshift. But apparently, finding the wrong gear in the GTS is easier than in a lot of other cars. That's a design issue, but I don't think it's a flaw. Experienced drivers would probably never have a problem. Kids on the otherhand...

cruzerz545

05-02-2002, 11:11 AM

I wasnt perposly miss-shifting into first gear, and yes, I admit I made a mistake by doing that. But still, if its 100% driver error, then why does Toyota pay for it?

oldster

05-02-2002, 11:12 AM

Customer Relations, if the reports are true about Acura then they have chosen another route.

yakkosmurf

05-02-2002, 11:18 AM

I don't know anyone who hasn't had their misshift covered. That includes two Type R owners. I don't know any RSX owners or any S2000 owners who have misshifted. Personally, I don't think either company should be paying for misshifts. It's dumb and causes the price of the cars to go up. I hit some gravel getting on the freeway and skidded the Type R up a curb. If new suspension parts were needed, I didn't expect Honda to pay for them under warranty. Misshifting is no different. All driver error. Driver should pay.

autxr

05-02-2002, 11:20 AM

Driver error.

That said, obviously the design is not mistake proof. Toyota has made changes to the design that are supposed to help (though take away some of the enjoyment).

In the US, with our dumb ass juries, it's hard to say where the liability would fall, you would probably win a case, but it was still the fault of the driver.

The bigger question, "Why do we need to rehash all of this?"

cruzerz545 = lemoncelica

Here we go again.

Scott

yakkosmurf

05-02-2002, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by autxr
cruzerz545 = lemoncelica

Interesting equation. Didn't think I'd see that name again.

These clowns just can't admit they made a mistake. It has to be someone else's fault.

autxr

05-02-2002, 11:33 AM

just when yakkosmurf and I seem to be ready to duke it out, we again find common ground ;)

Scott

Dealer Xing

05-02-2002, 11:36 AM

The biggest mistake is there is no separate M/T driving exam in the US. You don't hear this kind of bullsh*t anywhere in the world in which a person misshift a car and blame the car company. Shame.

yakkosmurf

05-02-2002, 11:37 AM

It seems to take an idiot posting for that to happen.

NoCones

05-02-2002, 11:47 AM

Clearly user error. People keep bringing up this "other cars don't let you mis-shift" crap, but I haven't seen one shred of evidence that there's a car out there that utilizes some sort of shift lock-out to prevent over-revving.

Sure, the design could have been different to try to lessen the potential for error (as they have apparently changed the spacing of the gates for 2002), but that doesn't mean the design was crap.

Add to the list of other cars that can be mis-shifted: I put my old 99 Miata into 2nd at 80mph when going for 4th...fortunately, I got the clutch back in before it was the whole way out...just a quick chirp of the tires and no engine damage.

TRD-CELICA-GT02

05-02-2002, 11:56 AM

I basically agree with you all. Simply drivor error. I guess it takes REAL DRIVERS to drive manual. Just a lot of kids these days force their engines to do so much. Stupid RICER/RACERBOY mentality has them blowin their engines. And yet they find other people or blame the car for their iditiotic childish mistakes.

t2000gts

05-02-2002, 12:29 PM

i think it has to do with the fact that reverse is on the top left, thus making the area between the 1-2 and 3-4 gates closer together, and moving 1-2 a little more to the right of where people expect them to be (also that little phantom gate under reverse which people sometimes hit trying to get 2nd).

especially if you've had a 5-speed before, you're probably used to guiding it into gear, and are used to 2nd being on the way bottom left, not slightly to the left of 4th.

i've heard of people missing 5th and hitting 3rd in the heat of the moment too (mostly for similar reason, gates are too close compared to normal manual transmissions), but didn't you misshift from 6th to 1st? i'm surprised you got it into 1st, i just saw a post in the newbie forum the other day or i think it was either gen or mod forum where someone asked why they couldn't downshift into 1st at higher speeds without double clutching, maybe your tranny WAS messed up.

i think most if not all misshifts are also done when people don't concentrate as much as they should when driving hard. if you drove hard on a race track, you'd concentrate. if you drove normally on the road, you wouldn't. but then they drive hard on the road, and don't concentrate. (this hasn't to do with cruzer's case).

then again, i seriously doubt, like yakko, that toyota's aim was to make this easy for normal drivers. the suspension itself throws all such aims out the window. after 24k miles, my shocks/struts are damn near done in, and the resulting vibrations from long island/new york roads is doing it in for the plastics and anything else that can rattle apart. (also, wouldn't this also effect the engine or do the motor mounts compensate enough for worn out shocks and things of that nature). also, my tires are pretty worn, the car hydroplanes on most rainy surfaces i take even slightly too quick, but it still handles itself with a poise that's lacking in all other FWD cars i've driven short of the Type R.

ghostface

05-02-2002, 12:35 PM

actually i can agree with you on that idea about the gear stoppers....they do exista nd in alot of cars/...the celica has one...if you've ever tried to put it in reverse as you were rolling foirward even the littlerst bit it will grind...thats the gear stopper kciking in.....my friend has a gs-r and his doesmnt let you go down too many gears either..many top end sports cars have it also...all ferraris have it ..even though u have to be retarted top missshift one..the gated shifter is almost impossible...its there..toyota engineers didnt think that there will be this many missshifts with this car.... thiunk abiut it...the 200-2001 shuifter gates are not as close as some sports cars...it might be driver error also because peoplealways drive ferrais hard and dodge vipers and all those sports cars are very very close..like short shifter clse..even the lotus esprit is very close..i have personle experience will most of those hiugh end sports cars..

Ghost

ringthree

05-02-2002, 12:41 PM

Dude, Jim come on man. You weren't saying this a week before you misshifted.

I know it's hard to blame yourself for things that you screwed up but you know you were at fault, you already admitted this to me. You already have a new engine form Toyota. What else do you want? Reaffirmation that it wasn't your fault (and you already doubt that yourself)? I don't think your going to find it yourself.

Also, you didn't mention that Gude said that it was misshifting that blew the engines when we spoke yesterday. They said it was the install, thats what they told me and thats what you told me.

t2000gts

05-02-2002, 12:47 PM

i'm pretty sure there's no "gear stopper" for reverse, it's just that reverse has no synchros so it grinds into gear everytime.

what they CAN do is make an electronic lockout, rig the shift hammer with something so it won't go into gears when the speed it's at now would put it over the rev limiter in those gears (i.e, when you're at 60mph, 1 and 2 get turned off)...also, have it be dependent on the rev limiter so we can mess with the limiter afterwards and not have to lose out on downshifting speed.

a little more electronic control can't hurt :thumbup: (and tougher synchros for that matter, make them out of adamantium or something)

the C60 transmission is brilliant in terms of efficiency (drivetrain loss, what drivetrain loss?) but not very user-friendly or reliable in the long-term.

GeeTeeEss

05-02-2002, 01:01 PM

This is one way to look at it:

Take for example this toy that Tyco made. It was a tugboat that made sounds when you pushed a button. It was recommended for ages 3 and up. Well, it turned out that little kids were choking on small parts of the toy (little parts were removable.) Now obviously these parts weren't coming off and jumping down the kids throats... but perhaps you see my point.

Toyota isn't selling these cars to a bunch of Nascar drivers; they are selling them to normal everyday drivers. Car manufactures have to take this into consideration.

There is no question about whether or not it is driver error... OF COURSE IT IS...! But the fact remains, if your gonna make toy suitable for ages 3 and up you better make sure the parts are REALLY hard to take off, or kids are gonna choke. And if your gonna make a six-speed transmission car suitable for any driver, you should find a way to make it harder to mis-shift or people are gonna...!

gts24

05-02-2002, 01:11 PM

100% driver error. nuff said

yakkosmurf

05-02-2002, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by GeeTeeEss
.

Toyota isn't selling these cars to a bunch of Nascar drivers; they are selling them to normal everyday drivers. Car manufactures have to take this into consideration.

They do take it into consideration. Why do you think cars come into this country so de-tuned? Why did Toyota mess up the handling of the MkII MR2 in 93 by redesigning the rear suspension? It was because the general public can't handle car companies producing real performance cars at a good price. Honda does the same thing to the Type R. But give them credit for going father than other companies are willing to.

NoCones

05-02-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by ghostface
the celica has one...if you've ever tried to put it in reverse as you were rolling foirward even the littlerst bit it will grind...thats the gear stopper kciking in
That's a gear stopper, huh? :stupid:

TaeMachine

05-02-2002, 01:49 PM

this is the reason why we dont get the "good" cars. all we do is whine and complain.

acilecdps6

05-02-2002, 01:54 PM

There is no Gear Stopper for reverse. You cannot put it in reverse when going forward because reverse does not have synchros.

bgreganti

05-02-2002, 04:22 PM

You can't put it in reverse because of the reverse idler gear, which is also what you hear grinding. There are no synchros, but even if there were, you still couldn't shift into reverse while moving forward.

As for actually blocking the path of the shifter, it can be done, but I only know of one car that does it, and it's not to prevent downshifting. In the Viper there's the 1-4 Skip Shift, which forces you to improve your gas milage by skipping gears when not accellerating very hard. It physically blocks the path for 2nd and 3rd, however it also directs the shifter into 4th and doesn't rely on the driver to figure it out. Most enthusiasts disable it.

Read more here...
http://www.viperclub.org/instructions/skipshift.html

acilecdps6

05-02-2002, 04:57 PM

Actually you can get a car into reverse when going forward, but I think the odds of winning a lottery are smaller. I know because I did it once, a long time ago on a 1969 GTO, I went from 2nd to Reverse. I wasn't going very fast, and the car hopped and bounced like crazy, but in a cloud of clutch smoke and god awful noises, the damn car started going in reverse.

NoCones

05-02-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by bgreganti
Most enthusiasts disable it.
Exactly. If I wanted the car deciding on gears for me, I'd have bought an automatic.

Recent GM V-8's have the same "feature."

Bryan

NoCones

05-02-2002, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by GeeTeeEss
they are selling them to normal everyday drivers.
Actually, I bet very few normal everyday drivers have problems...it's the ham-fisted wankers who get wood from "killing" a Civic Si who end up with trouble. :rofl:

TypeSzH

05-02-2002, 05:10 PM

Some people just can't drive. Toyota probably do not want the publicity for turning their backs on their customers.

LiL_sAlS_Celi

05-02-2002, 06:11 PM

i dont think its right for you "old" men to call us younger guys ricer/racerboys who cant drive. Im 19 and ive been driving 5 speeds since 14. I know i probably havent been driving as long as some of the men on this board, but i am very offended when someone tells me that im a "kid" and that i cant drive. I will admit ITS MY FAULT I MISSHIFTED AND NOT TOYOTA'S but in any case the 00-01 shift gates are very close. i dont know what happended that day but it did and im just grateful i got my car fixed for free.
(Sorry for the bit of vulgarity)

NoCones

05-02-2002, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by LiL_sAlS_Celi
i dont think its right for you "old" men to call us younger guys ricer/racerboys who cant drive. Im 19 and ive been driving 5 speeds since 14. I know i probably havent been driving as long as some of the men on this board, but i am very offended when someone tells me that im a "kid" and that i cant drive. I will admit ITS MY FAULT I MISSHIFTED AND NOT TOYOTA'S but in any case the 00-01 shift gates are very close. i dont know what happended that day but it did and im just grateful i got my car fixed for free.
(Sorry for the bit of vulgarity)
Hey, I'm not saying young drivers are all bad and I'm not saying mis-shifters are necessarily bad drivers...I admitted above that I misshifted my old Miata, and I think I'm a pretty good driver. I even missed a simple 1-2 shift at my last autox.

I'm just guessing that quite a few mis-shifts occur when someone can't handle being passed by some other sports car on the interstate and gets all excited and decides they have to drop down a few gears to show off how well their GT-S "pulls."

It'd be nice if a few other folks could admit when they screwed up instead of peeing and moaning on here about how "Toyota should have put lock-outs on the transmission" or "F-ing police screwed me again!" etc, etc...

Bryan

J3adSeed

05-02-2002, 07:48 PM

i love it when people screw up their car and then try to somehow say its toyota's fault. please, take some responsibility. its a damn shifter. they're all the same. this one may be a little closer than some, but thats what happens in a 6 speed.

racinjason

05-02-2002, 08:12 PM

Definately driver error. Toyota has done things to avoid this problem which is why we some some bone head moves like lower rev limiter and revised shift gates. But it's not Toyotas fault. Hell if you buy a lown mower are you going to sue when you accidentally cut off your toes? Accidents happen to the best of us.

6SPDGTS

05-02-2002, 08:42 PM

I misshifted and blamed myself from day 1. I wasnt paying attention enough and I put it into second gear from 5th NOT TOYOTA. The said they would fix it for free because they have for others so I had them fix it. But I still blame myself ask anyone I know and they will tell you I blame myself and not toyota.
Peace
Ryan

kabal57

05-03-2002, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by autxr
just when yakkosmurf and I seem to be ready to duke it out, we again find common ground ;)

Scott

LOL I know what you mean dude.

That being said questions like this topic are unfortunately a product of the pussified society we live in. No one and I mean NO ONE in this society, wants to take responsibility for a goddamn thing anymore. Ok slight exaggeration, (some people still do). But the fact is that is what we have made ourselves into. A bunch of whiny crying pass-the buck bunch of people. Case in point, the misshift issue. It is purely 100% driver error. End of story. But because people can't seem to accept the fact that THEY screwed up, they have to find some reason to blame it on someone/something else. "The tranny was not designed properly so I misshifted..." "The engine is crap, it was designed to rev to 9k but it blows up when I rev it to 13k in 2nd gear..." "Toyota should have known better...."
Bull****. <br>
People need to sac up and take some accountabilty for stuff THEY do every now and then. And they should get down on their knees and thank their lucky stars that toyota is taking it in the ass and shelling out 5-6k EACH to cover their DRIVER ERRORS. <br> And people still have the nerve to whine and bitch about toyota and trd not coming out with newer parts and fi...WHY THE **** SHOULD THEY? So people can have MORE expensive cars to **** up????
amazing. <br> I have to admit, from a business stand point, if I were in toyotas shoes I sure as hell wouldnt release stuff like that if i'm just gonna have to pay for it twice. <br>
Soooo in closing..For those of you who love to complain about lack of parts... Take a look at yourself and your fellow celica drivers and see just why there are no new parts....

GeeTeeEss

05-03-2002, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by NoCones

I'm just guessing that quite a few mis-shifts occur when someone can't handle being passed by some other sports car on the interstate and gets all excited and decides they have to drop down a few gears to show off how well their GT-S "pulls."

Bryan

*Puts head down in shame and raises hand*

Tronix

05-03-2002, 05:14 AM

Its not a "FLAW" in design, You can Damn Toyota all you want.. Damn them for putting a car on the market that has closer shift gates, and feels more like a racecar. No its not designed well for someone used to driving a Dodge Omni. Its designed for close gear ratios, and quicker shifting with closer shift gates.

unfortunately Toyota is learning the hard way that the general public isnt ready for a high performance race type shift pattern. So the change in ECU has crippled the 2002 model, and I'm sure future designs are taking into consideration that the general public arent good enough drivers to be able to handle this.

-Tronix(heh lemoncelica)GT

autxr

05-03-2002, 06:03 AM

No its not designed well for someone used to driving a Dodge Omni.

Actually, my wife learned to drive a stick in a Dodge Omni (back in about 1987. She hated it, and gave up on manuals, that was until 1999, so after 12 years of automatics only she made the jump into a 6 speed GTS.

2.5 years and 45,000 miles (split about 50-50 between her and me), she still hasn't misshifted.

So, a total novice with ONLY experience driving an Omni can drive the GTS and not misshift it.

Scott

yakkosmurf

05-03-2002, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by autxr

Actually, my wife learned to drive a stick in a Dodge Omni (back in about 1987. She hated it, and gave up on manuals, that was until 1999, so after 12 years of automatics only she made the jump into a 6 speed GTS.

2.5 years and 45,000 miles (split about 50-50 between her and me), she still hasn't misshifted.

So, a total novice with ONLY experience driving an Omni can drive the GTS and not misshift it.

Scott
How often does your wife try to race someone or suddenly pass someone on the freeway to show off?

2000 XYR

05-03-2002, 06:36 AM

Mine had "super-synchros". I could shift into any gear at any speed. It almost got me a couple of times, but I never blew an engine. There was a couple close calls: I hit 1st instead of 3rd once. I also hit 2nd once instead of 4th. I think for me the problem was that Reverse was at the far left. That shifted all the gears to the right somewhat. Where I was used to 4th, it was 2nd. Where I was used to 3rd being, 1st was there. I think that was my problem with the tranny. I believe I'd have been fine if they had put Reverse over by 5th or 6th. I think that's where it should be anyway, but I've seen several 6-speeds that have it to the left of 1st.

autxr

05-03-2002, 07:19 AM

My wife doesn't have anything to prove. She *knows* she can out drive 9 out of 10 drivers on the road.

She is more than happy to bang out red-line shifts though.

On the other hand, she has a higher IQ than most folks (me included) and isn't likely to be hitting redline in 3rd. Why? Because that is pushing an unsafe condition at most any time on normal roads.

Scott

yakkosmurf

05-03-2002, 08:52 AM

Exactly my point. Your wife is a smarter, better driver than the idiots who have misshifted...

MilinGTS

05-03-2002, 08:59 AM

me and your wife sound like similar drivers. ;)

as much as we flame yakko, he is a tome of knowledge in the automotive world, his words do bear a certain educated weight.

I learned a lot by listening to his technical explanations of things

New_Name

05-03-2002, 09:13 AM

definitely user error.....the gears are so close together for race efficiency.....but if you do not know how to shift the gears correctly or if you wrongly shift by mistake, you will definetly have problems.....i, myself have never had any problems with misshifting my car, except when i test drove it for the first time......people just have to be careful when shifting and take precautions before popping it into another gear.......

Jesse IL

05-03-2002, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

Interesting equation. Didn't think I'd see that name again.

These clowns just can't admit they made a mistake. It has to be someone else's fault.

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

WHY DO WE KEEP REHASHING THIS?!?!?!?!? (Beats head against desk)

Driver error 100%

This is SO the American way its sickening. Blame someone else for your mistakes. Toyota created a transmission that shifts wonderfully and rewards a talented driver with short throws and close gates. Then a bunch of clowns go out and ham fist the hell out of the shifter and throw it in the wrong gear. then they blame Toyota. You know why Americans always get the shaft on cool options and performance features? Because of crap like this. What does Toyota get for putting a great shifter in a car and giving it to Americans? Nothing but a bunch of red ink and hassles. Enjoy the 2002 Celica with your crappy shifter and low rev limit, cuz we're sleeping in the bed that we made.

What I also don't understand is people saying that the gears aren't where they are used to them being. What would you do if someone moved your bed, just fall onto the floor? Use a little damn finesse and the shifter has very positive action that lets you know where you are. It takes very little pressure to move the shifter. 5 -> 4 downshift: pull the lever back with no side pressure and it will drop right into 4th. The only problem I have is that since the shifter can go past first to get reverse, I often pull the shifter too far left and hit the gate on a 3 -> 2 shift.

CelicaSupra

05-03-2002, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by cruzerz545
I wasnt perposly miss-shifting into first gear, and yes, I admit I made a mistake by doing that. But still, if its 100% driver error, then why does Toyota pay for it?

Simple. Toyota knows why people buy their cars, quality, reliability and now not so much value, Toyota's have gotten to be pretty expensive. All you have to do is open a Consumer Reports magazine or JD Power and Toyota will be at the top of the list, including the Celica. Anyway, Toyota is always recognized for these factors and they do not want to fail their customers, they know if they turn their backs on the customers, those customers will never buy or recommend a Toyota again, so they figure, if they please everyone by covering misshifts under warranty, even though they are 100% driver error, they will make people happy and at the same time speak for Toyota's superb customer service. As far as I know, RSX-S are fairly easy to misshift as well but unlike Toyota, Acura says :nono: to covering misshifts under warranty.