Forced Induction Question

[Dizzy321]

ALRIGHT....I KNOW THAT THIS MAY SOUND VERY STUPID TO THE REAL EXPERIENCED....BUT I PRICED A BLITZ SUPERCHARGER AND ITS $6500....TO ME THATS JUS RIDICULOUS...SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT FORCE INDUCTION THAT MAKES IT COST SO MUCH...LIK WAT DOES IT ACTUALLY DO.....CUZ I HAV NO CLUE :shrugs:

[ZenoGenProducts]

ALRIGHT....I KNOW THAT THIS MAY SOUND VERY STUPID TO THE REAL EXPERIENCED....BUT I PRICED A BLITZ SUPERCHARGER AND ITS $6500....TO ME THATS JUS RIDICULOUS...SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT FORCE INDUCTION THAT MAKES IT COST SO MUCH...LIK WAT DOES IT ACTUALLY DO.....CUZ I HAV NO CLUE :shrugs:

puts more air and fuel in your damn engine = bigger explosions, more power + higher RPM + more torque. and blitz is a rip off by the way, i'd rather go turbo

[stuntmasta3o5]

Here you go http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger.htm ..

[nemrac]

there's a section for this :moved:

[Blue Angel]

If all you are looking for is more power for less money then get a turbo. I know most people think the Blitz SC is too expensive for the amount of boost but then they need to see beyond the boost gauge at the other positive aspects that make it worthwhile like instant boost, reliability and a wicked sounding motor that turns heads like no other SC or turbo :headbang:

[blitzceli]

If all you are looking for is more power for less money then get a turbo. I know most people think the Blitz SC is too expensive for the amount of boost but then they need to see beyond the boost gauge at the other positive aspects that make it worthwhile like instant boost, reliability and a wicked sounding motor that turns heads like no other SC or turbo :headbang:
a sc isnt more reliable than a turbo...Turbo kicks the sc in everyway imaginable if it is tuned and done right.

[Boosted2.0]

The simple answer is this: The eingine is a big air pump. The more air and fuel you can cram through it the more power you will make. At normal atomosphereic pressure a naturally aspirated engine can only take in air at atmospheric pressure at best. Forced induction is designed to increase the pressure in the intake manifold above atmospheric pressure, hence allowing the engine to move more air than it can at normal atmospheric pressure. More air = more power.

[cool2miketlu]

The simplest answer is find someone local that has a FI car hopefully they will let you drive it, your answer will come to you once you had the chance behind that wheel.

[Dizzy321]

Thanx....

[SWPLGT05]

Suck->Squish->Bang->Blow?

[YaNg^_^GuY]

I was looking up the dyno for the Blitz Supercharger and it only boosts a stock GT-S from 180 to 199.5 at 7 PSI. that's kind of a ****ty result for a supercharger that costs about $6500 to $7000. it's design looks cool though, but like I said, ****ty results.

if it comes to force induction though, XS Engineering the whole way through! 180 to 251 at 7PSI. that's what I'm talking about!!!

[Blue Angel]

a sc isnt more reliable than a turbo...Turbo kicks the sc in everyway imaginable if it is tuned and done right.
I totally disagree.

FYI- my SC puts out 218 whp and 180 ftlbs torque.

[blitzceli]

I was looking up the dyno for the Blitz Supercharger and it only boosts a stock GT-S from 180 to 199.5 at 7 PSI. that's kind of a ****ty result for a supercharger that costs about $6500 to $7000. it's design looks cool though, but like I said, ****ty results.

if it comes to force induction though, XS Engineering the whole way through! 180 to 251 at 7PSI. that's what I'm talking about!!! uhh you havent looked around much.. You need to look at hass and c2 power.



I totally disagree.

FYI- my SC puts out 218 whp and 180 ftlbs torque.

seriously that is a joke. You spent 5-6K for 30-40 whp. Some member on this board spent half of what you did and make 80-100whp. If they spent as much as you did, they wouldnt be around 400whp mark. the blitzsc may look nice and sound nice, but the turbo out performs

[LightningRod]

seriously that is a joke. You spent 5-6K for 30-40 whp. Some member on this board spent half of what you did and make 80-100whp. If they spent as much as you did, they wouldnt be around 400whp mark. the blitzsc may look nice and sound nice, but the turbo out performs

It's not always about performance ...

[blitzceli]

It's not always about performance ... then why F/I your car. That is what F/I is about...

[Boosted2.0]

Suck->Squish->Bang->Blow?


FI helps it suck more for a better bang ;)

[Boosted2.0]

In all seriousness turbos are WAAAAAYYYY more efficient than superchargers. Thats why NHRA had to outlaw them in all the big classes. The reason is simple - the turbo uses the energy in the superheated exhaust gas (energy that would otherwise be wasted out the tailpipe) to compress the incoming air - its a hella efficient system. The supercharger on the other hand draws energy from the crank - which robs that energy used to drive it from the normal output, and wastes even MORE energy than a NA car out the tailpipe.

The only reason superchargers are used is because they are easily controlled and give linear predictable power. A turbo is a bit more like a barely restrained beast. Once it starts going it just feeds on itself - the more air it flows the more exhaust you have the more exhaust you have the more energy to drive the turbo, the more energy for the turbo the more air it flows, the more air it flows the more exhaust you have the more exhaust you have the more energy to drive the turbo, the more energy for the turbo the more air it flows, the more air it flows the more exhaust you have the more exhaust you have the more energy to drive the turbo, the more energy for the turbo the more air it flows...

you get the idea

[Blue Angel]

Turbos are more efficient and cheaper - I don't dispute that.

[milesplume]

...uhh turbos especially the huge ones they would use in the NHRA for that massive airflow and boost would have no power down low and their take off is the most important part of the whole race...and in case you didnt know they only have 1! gear so its not like they are shifting and staying in the power band like all u turbo guys are.
and turbos are not the ultimate and s/c's are not the ultimate either. all i am saying is that they are good if used for their proper application yes turbos out due all the s/c's IN OUR APPLICATIONS...but when the serious turbos guys (monkey wrench racing and others) make huge numbers tis great but how usable is it unless u are already going??. but look at the LAGGGGGGGGG they dont make my power till 5k rpm. now imagine a turbo that had to put out 50 psi and was like 3 times bigger and had to run from the start in like the equivalent of our 4th gear thats why they use superchargers because they cant afford that lag in the most important part of the race...also after like 15psi a turbo cant compete with a s/c because they develope a lag that the s/c will never have...so to conclude turbos do out do s/c's in a low psi application but not high...

and i dont give a **** about my spelling to all u english teachers out there so dont try to get ur post number up by saying i need to spell stuff right...

[Boosted2.0]

...uhh turbos especially the huge ones they would use in the NHRA for that massive airflow and boost would have no power down low and their take off is the most important part of the whole race...and in case you didnt know they only have 1! gear so its not like they are shifting and staying in the power band like all u turbo guys are.
and turbos are not the ultimate and s/c's are not the ultimate either. all i am saying is that they are good if used for their proper application yes turbos out due all the s/c's IN OUR APPLICATIONS...but when the serious turbos guys (monkey wrench racing and others) make huge numbers tis great but how usable is it unless u are already going??. but look at the LAGGGGGGGGG they dont make my power till 5k rpm. now imagine a turbo that had to put out 50 psi and was like 3 times bigger and had to run from the start in like the equivalent of our 4th gear thats why they use superchargers because they cant afford that lag in the most important part of the race...also after like 15psi a turbo cant compete with a s/c because they develope a lag that the s/c will never have...so to conclude turbos do out do s/c's in a low psi application but not high...

and i dont give a **** about my spelling to all u english teachers out there so dont try to get ur post number up by saying i need to spell stuff right...


dude - you have no idea what you are talking about - most turbo cars launch on a 2 step rev limiter under full boost - there is no lag. When the turbo is larger than displacement would normally demand then a small amount of nitrous fixes any spool issues. So you see any 8 second Supras running superchargers? No. Do you see them making over 500 HP / liter? You betcha.


Hell, *MY* car - which is no purebred racercar, its only alil 2.0 liter, it launched at 12-15 PSI of boost on a modified CT26, a VERY innefficient turbo.

The ONLY reason they use superchargers in NHRA is because turbos are outlawed - end of story. You look at power per cube and you cannot TOUCH the power a turbo can make with a supercharger on the same engine. The power needed to run the supercharger is too high and saps too much from the crank. Those cars make maybe 4000-5000 HP tops and the blower saps like 500 of it. They are like 800 cubic inch motors, thats like 13 liters. If they were ONLY making power at the same level a supra on stock crank can make with a turbo they would be putting out close to 7000 HP or more.

Seriously bro - I know you like your supercharger, and theres nothing wrong with that - its great and 10 times better than NA, but facts are facts and physics is physics. Turbos are more efficient and hence can make more power in any given application.

[milesplume]

k number 1 i am talking nothing about our cars or my supercharger or an 8 sec supra. u were talking about the NHRA top classes so i was talking about the 3-4 sec cars not the little 8 sec ones. im talking about the real deal...so what you are saying is they could run a huge turbo and nitrous and be in like the 2 second range or sumthing???

[Boosted2.0]

k number 1 i am talking nothing about our cars or my supercharger or an 8 sec supra. u were talking about the NHRA top classes so i was talking about the 3-4 sec cars not the little 8 sec ones. im talking about the real deal...so what you are saying is they could run a huge turbo and nitrous and be in like the 2 second range or sumthing???


Yes - They could run a turbo and probably be in the Low 3s at a higher MPH. How much more is hard to say - how muhc faster than 5000 HP is 6500 HP? Anyways NHRA outlawed turbo and screw type blowers because they felt there would be no way to provide safety for the drivers at the G-Forces and speed that would be experienced at those power levels.

[Foxtrck]

I was looking up the dyno for the Blitz Supercharger and it only boosts a stock GT-S from 180 to 199.5 at 7 PSI. that's kind of a ****ty result for a supercharger that costs about $6500 to $7000. it's design looks cool though, but like I said, ****ty results.


Wrong....


My Blitz SuperCharger has popped my bhp from my 190 to 240/50bhp depending on fuel used...


have Dyno to prove it...

If you ask me I'd buy the Blitz SC over and over again... would happy race a turbo'd Celica anyday

=)

[blitzceli]

Wrong....


My Blitz SuperCharger has popped my bhp from my 190 to 240/50bhp depending on fuel used...


have Dyno to prove it...

If you ask me I'd buy the Blitz SC over and over again... would happy race a turbo'd Celica anyday

=) You do know that you wouldnt beat it right? As boosted said turbo pretty puck kicks the sc ass any day of the week. a 50hp increase is NOT worth 6K IMO.

[Gravel]

Wrong....


My Blitz SuperCharger has popped my bhp from my 190 to 240/50bhp depending on fuel used...


have Dyno to prove it...

If you ask me I'd buy the Blitz SC over and over again... would happy race a turbo'd Celica anyday

=)

Foxie, last time I looked the Blitz was about

[milesplume]

Wrong....


My Blitz SuperCharger has popped my bhp from my 190 to 240/50bhp depending on fuel used...


have Dyno to prove it...

If you ask me I'd buy the Blitz SC over and over again... would happy race a turbo'd Celica anyday

=)

.....dude id race u and beat u with my 223 wheel horse power s/c.... 250 at the flywheel is not much....

[cool2miketlu]

I have achieved 221.3ft/lb Torque & 235.4FWHP on 91 octane fuel (also got dyno to prove this)... Lets say 15% powertrain loss I am at 277HP to crank... Wanna race a turboed GT Foxtrck?
This is on a GT which means I doubled my HP with a turbo... Monkeywrenchracing is able to do more with a GTS because they have their own tuning facility. FI is all about tuning man, sure mods help without proper tuning you are not using its full potential.

[milesplume]

hey cool would you win against me?? u have 10 more wheel horsepower but im s/c that would be a fun race!!

[cool2miketlu]

hey cool would you win against me?? u have 10 more wheel horsepower but im s/c that would be a fun race!!


Actually I am thinking about upping the boost when it gets colder, ofcourse staying as safe as possible maybe even add alcohol injection.
What is your torque numbers? And when do you achieve max boost max HP?
You are in norcal I am in socal, I think it would be interesting race since my 10WHP would mean nothing since I am slowed down by my bodykit and my 18" rims.
I only challenged Foxtrck because he is being a bit c0cky about his SC'ed GTS, even a GT with turbo can beat his numbers and we don't even have to bring up WMR's 400WHP turboed GTS.

[T88 Elise]

uhh you havent looked around much.. You need to look at hass and c2 power.





seriously that is a joke. You spent 5-6K for 30-40 whp. Some member on this board spent half of what you did and make 80-100whp. If they spent as much as you did, they wouldnt be around 400whp mark. the blitzsc may look nice and sound nice, but the turbo out performs

I'm curious, what "kits" are out there making 80-100rwhp more, and cost $2500-3000? What ECU?

[pnoy]

I'm curious, what "kits" are out there making 80-100rwhp more, and cost $2500-3000? What ECU?


It's called turbo. Any it will cost you around 2000 more to up the boost and be able to run your engine safely at that level

[Jesse IL]

pick a topic
dude - you have no idea what you are talking about
Excellent summary! :thumbup:

[GTPhil]

os especially the huge ones they would use in the NHRA for that massive airflow and boost would have no power down low and their take off is the most important part of the whole race...and in case you didnt know they only have 1! gear so its not like they are shifting and staying in the power band like all u turbo guys are.
and turbos are not the ultimate and s/c's are not the ultimate either. all i am saying is that they are good if used for their proper application yes turbos out due all the s/c's IN OUR APPLICATIONS...but when the serious turbos guys (monkey wrench racing and others) make huge numbers tis great but how usable is it unless u are already going??. but look at the LAGGGGGGGGG they dont make my power till 5k rpm. now imagine a turbo that had to put out 50 psi and was like 3 times bigger and had to run from the start in like the equivalent of our 4th gear thats why they use superchargers because they cant afford that lag in the most important part of the race...also after like 15psi a turbo cant compete with a s/c because they develope a lag that the s/c will never have...so to conclude turbos do out do s/c's in a low psi application but not high...

and i dont give a **** about my spelling to all u english teachers out there so dont try to get ur post number up by saying i need to spell stuff right...
__________________

Dude we are not a drag or funny car forum we are celicas and when we want F/I power we go with smaller more efficiant turbos that spool quickly. So your argument really has not point.

[T88 Elise]

It's called turbo.

Uh....Wtf? :rofl:

LMAO. I'm aware it's forced induction.

Someone chastised another poster saying that $6000 was waaay too much to pay for only a 60hp gain. They stated that people were making 80-100hp gains for HALF that.

So I'm asking that person...what "kits" homemade or otherwise are making 80-100 hp gains and going for $2500. I'd like to know.

Thanks.

[Hetts]

cost aside...

200 hp turbo car vs 200 hp SC car... 200hp SCed car wins.

SC'ers are better for autocross, turbos are better for dragracing.

[cool2miketlu]

It's called turbo.

Uh....Wtf? :rofl:

LMAO. I'm aware it's forced induction.

Someone chastised another poster saying that $6000 was waaay too much to pay for only a 60hp gain. They stated that people were making 80-100hp gains for HALF that.

So I'm asking that person...what "kits" homemade or otherwise are making 80-100 hp gains and going for $2500. I'd like to know.

Thanks.



Is it me or is there problem with math above? 1/2 of $6000 is $3000 right?
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211483
C2USA $3490 stage 1 GT kit group of 5 gets $300 off, group of 10 gets $400 off.
So if there is a group of 10 people buying this kit it would make it $3090, I say it is close enough to $3000 don't you?

[blitzceli]

Is it me or is there problem with math above? 1/2 of $6000 is $3000 right?
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211483
C2USA $3490 stage 1 GT kit group of 5 gets $300 off, group of 10 gets $400 off.
So if there is a group of 10 people buying this kit it would make it $3090, I say it is close enough to $3000 don't you?
remember always add 400 on top of total cost due to misc parts... I also just rounded off the price, I thought it was close enough. Maybe Ill go to the exact cent next time to help out the slower members on this site.

[cool2miketlu]

remember always add 400 on top of total cost due to misc parts... I also just rounded off the price, I thought it was close enough. Maybe Ill go to the exact cent next time to help out the slower members on this site.

^^ I don't have music button only the porn button :gap:

Yes realistically speaking it would be more, but I am only showing a kit at $3090 not what one might have to fork up at the end of install.

[T88 Elise]

Is it me or is there problem with math above? 1/2 of $6000 is $3000 right?
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211483
C2USA $3490 stage 1 GT kit group of 5 gets $300 off, group of 10 gets $400 off.
So if there is a group of 10 people buying this kit it would make it $3090, I say it is close enough to $3000 don't you?



Semantics. The guy said half of $5,000 OR $6,000 ( you can look back to his post), I didn't type out his words verbatim and as such left out his $5,000 comment, but was thinking of it as I typed.

And Im asking WHO makes the kits making 80-100rwhp that are going for this price ($2500-3000) and what are the specs. I'm not arguing that it's not possible.

Im asking which ones he means and what their specs are. I'll look at the example you provided.

[cool2miketlu]

But we know Blitz SC is $6000+ so it should be $6000.
Since you are looking at Elise which means 2ZZ and if it is for your car, then the cost would be higher... But I say it is close enough to be 1/2 the Blitz one considering you will have to do extensive modification for that Blitz SC, not much for the turbo only pipe change maybe a downpipe modification. If you really want to have great power monkeywrenchracing used stock 2ZZ motor and got 400WHP with their turbo, sure it cost more for the custom setup but cost to power ratio it is so worth it :)
Oh! Here is the link but I am sure you seen it: http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=217180

[T88 Elise]

I'm used to building my own turbo set up's on my cars because I'm normally looking for something a little bolder than cookie cutter kits.

I'm looking around because I'm gearing up for something, not sure what yet. I'm curious as to how others are approaching things. Also, as I get older I'm tired of fabricating and tuning my own stuff, it would be nice for once to pay someone else to do it.

Thing is....Monkeywrench has a HORRIFIC reputation with regards to Elises. I've never read/ seen ( video) such a mess in my life.

Hass seemed to be better, but now I'm hearing the emanage is even junkier than first thought and there are some quality issues with the kit.

I'm a fan of exede, so Im looking into that option as an ECU, also Electromotive, Autronic, Motec, Haltech, just about anything other than emanage.

Just looking around right now.

[cool2miketlu]

Standalone is always the way to go when you want to max what you want out of your setup. Motec and Haltech is expensive and all the new sensor replacements.... I would probably use Autronic (is this the one made in Australia?) sounds like it is easier to work with. Well not sure about Elises but MWR seem to do pretty good job here, many people swear by their engine build (but double check the work never hurt). Custom is always the way to go for big power, if you are not into that then a kit would be fine... But then you would not need that great a management unit, if you can figure out the wires on the Elise and compare it to a GTS maybe hardwire or build an adaptor for a PowerFC to your Elise is an option.

[emotart]

Hydra System is good too

[cool2miketlu]

I would like to see more review of the Hydra EMS before recommanding it though... I only know 1 person with it, and can't give an honest recommandation based on that...

[T88 Elise]

On my cars I've got Electromotive, Haltech and Motec so I'm familiar with them. My favorite is Electromotive, so I might look into the TEC III.

I've not even heard of hydra, but I'm kind of old school and somewhat out of the new loop.

[DanVVTL-i]

Wrong....


My Blitz SuperCharger has popped my bhp from my 190 to 240/50bhp depending on fuel used...


have Dyno to prove it...

If you ask me I'd buy the Blitz SC over and over again... would happy race a turbo'd Celica anyday

=)

Man o man just go to the track put your time and then we talk!!!

Dan

[VoodooTRD]

name a few people that never had one proplem with a gt-s turbo

also when you guys say 180hp to only 200hp... is a waste. you are looking at it wrong.

stock celica has about 160whp ------> s/c can get you about +/- 220whp depending on tune and other upgrades.

[VoodooTRD]

i want to see these 400whp celica with stock internals on track or on the streets everyday. see how long they can last.

[cool2miketlu]

Well mine lasted quite a long time, if it were not for a worn down braided oil line from rubbing (replacement is longer so no more rubbing) the turbo would not have ceased and I do not have to change turbo. So turbo setup would have been reliable on 1ZZ, though 2ZZ is at higher compression and I do not recommand 400WHP everyday driver but I am sure it can do 250~300WHP daily with no problem.
We see more turbo having problems because more people have turbo than SuperCharger, also turbo people tends to mess with their setup more than SC because it is easier to. How many of the people that had problem is because they up the boost from the recommanded psi? If you get someone with a kit and he does not up the boost and leave it at 250WHP with a good dyno tune for GTS I would think it would be a very reliable setup.

[DanVVTL-i]

I left mine at 342whp daily driving w/o a problem (tuning is everything) for my girl friend and busy know with an '82 toyota starlet with a 2RZ, turbo, sakura & electromotive etc etc streetable running low 10s may be high 9s.

Dan

[VoodooTRD]

I left mine at 342whp daily driving w/o a problem (tuning is everything) for my girl friend and busy know with an '82 toyota starlet with a 2RZ, turbo, sakura & electromotive etc etc streetable running low 10s may be high 9s.

Dan

page two owned!

pics/dyno/videos?

[DanVVTL-i]

page two owned!

pics/dyno/videos?


Do a search under my nick and you will know who I'm. Let me help you http://www.newcelica.org/other/tracktimes/page.php

More info about the starlet will come later if ok with larryd.

To mods & admins, sorry for my deviation from this thread.

[VoodooTRD]

Do a search under my nick and you will know who I'm. Let me help you http://www.newcelica.org/other/tracktimes/page.php

More info about the starlet will come later if ok with larryd.

To mods & admins, sorry for my deviation from this thread.

there are no pics or videos

[Reyzin]

So turbo setup would have been reliable on 1ZZ, though 2ZZ is at higher compression and I do not recommand 400WHP everyday driver but I am sure it can do 250~300WHP daily with no problem.
We see more turbo having problems because more people have turbo than SuperCharger, also turbo people tends to mess with their setup more than SC because it is easier to. How many of the people that had problem is because they up the boost from the recommanded psi? If you get someone with a kit and he does not up the boost and leave it at 250WHP with a good dyno tune for GTS I would think it would be a very reliable setup.


Running 310whp daily since March/April (whenever it stopped snowing in Chicago). Other than some minor problems I'm doing just fine. Already put on about 5k miles.