What the down side of getting an 06 Evolution MR Edition ?

[MothTRD]

Just what the title say guys. Are the 06 the last model ? Is there a evolution site like our celica sites ?

[kimGT]

well soon they will be coming out with a new evolution with super all wheel drive control, but that may be a while. If i could afford an MR i'd definitly jump on it.

check out evolutionm.com

[2000BAMAGT-S]

the evo's are one of the most stolen cars in the U.S. not sure which year, there was an article on MSN.com about it

[Blue Bomber]

:moved:

[Q*Spec]

downside of that car would probably be that there wont be any competition, those things are so fast

[Tragic]

Downside is voiding your warrany but oh well putting some basic bolt on will give you some more Hp so you really dont lose.

[MothTRD]

thanks guys, i could void my warrany just by droping it and putting on an exhaust ?

[james.ky]

the evo x will be in 2008. The concept looks mean, I would wait for that.

[MothTRD]

would it matter if i get the 5 speed or the 6 speed ? is it faster then the 06 sti and the z ?

[kylebGTS]

would it matter if i get the 5 speed or the 6 speed ? is it faster then the 06 sti and the z ?
Hey Sarith, You getting a new car? as far as speed goes STI>EVO>350z however the sti and evo are so close that it really comes down to the driver. I would suggest either getting a 2004-2006 subaru sti or waiting for the next gen evo's because those also look pretty cool. In my opinion the Evo is just like a dodge srt-4, its fast as hell but the styling is terrible.
i could void my warrany just by droping it and putting on an exhaust ? This all depends on what part of the warranty you are talking about, if your hood was to rust they couldnt blame it on the sound sytem or exhaust that you put on. Basically the warranty becomes void if you install something that is directly related to whatever broke.

[MothTRD]

I am getting the evo but I just dont know when yet. I want to wait and see what the 07 evo have. The celica look nice but i need more room and want more power

[kylebGTS]

Here is a spy shot of the 08 evohttp://www.topspeed.com/IMG/cache-270x203/2008_Mitsubishi_Evo_X_1-270x203.jpg , does anybody have any specs performance wise on what mitsubishi has in store for the 08 evo. Also will the 08 evo still use the 4g63 or do you think that they will devolop a new 2.5liter engine to better match the sti?

[LightningRod]

^^^ I think the 4G63 is doing great against the STI's 2.5 ... it's been around for a long time and it will probably be around for awhile until Subaru develops something far nastier ...

[MothTRD]

What the 4G63 ? The only diffferent between t he MR and the evo 8 is that the MR is a 6 speed and the 8 is a 5 speed right guys ?

[kylebGTS]

I think the 4G63 is doing great against the STI's 2.5
I agree with that however I think that Mitsubishi is probally wanting to at least match or beat the current hp/trq figures that subarus 2.5 is making for their next gen evo's. And all though the 4g63 has proven it self I think that it is slowly becoming outdated.
What the 4G63 ? It is a 2.0litre turbo engine that mitsubishi has used since 1989ish correct me if im wrong. The only difference between the MR and the evo 8 is that the MR is a 6 speed I believe that the MR also uses lighter parts like an aluminum roof etc.

[nudge1201]

The 06 model is the Evo IX which make more power than the VIII with the mivec head and bigger turbo housing and are underated and dyno higher than the STI and not to mention they are much cheaper and more responsive to mod, for $1300 you can be putting 330 hp to the wheels. A few have broken into the 12's in stock form. I would say that the Evo is harder to launch than the STI but capable of faster times. The Evo X is going to be a all aluminuim 2.0L engine so I doubt it will be as stout as the 4g63's iron block with forged steel crank and rods. I hear the X will come out in 2008 and there will be no 2007 evo's but they are producing some SE model that are basically MR's with a 5 speed for the last production run of 06's just hitting showrooms as we speak. MR consist of aluminum roof, lightwieght forged BBS rims, Bistein shocks, HID's, 6 speed, extra carbon fiber interior trim, & extra aero bits for about $4k-5k. It is also the #1 costliest car to insure on a recent poll found here. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourCar/10CostliestCarsToInsure.aspx
evolutionm.net is the best evo site/forum

[Predator]

the evo x will be in 2008. The concept looks mean, I would wait for that.


:werd: no point in buying the current model. Its basically on its way out.

i'd wait and at least see what the final Evo X product will be like. Worst case scenario if you dont like it, the price of the 8 or 9 will have dropped significantly because of the model change, so it will cost you less to pick one up.

'07 looks like its gonna be an interestin year for those of us who or car hunting.

[Zenith]

The 06 model is the Evo IX which make more power than the VIII with the mivec head and bigger turbo housing and are underated and dyno higher than the STI and not to mention they are much cheaper and more responsive to mod, for $1300 you can be putting 330 hp to the wheels.

1,300 you say, for what? 60ish whp? how?

[nudge1201]

A package that has proved it self on the dyno many times over you can find numerous post on that forums of dynosheet, a couple people actually making 340+ whp. http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=2813308&postcount=1

[Zenith]

ahh, buschur racing, yup, if anyone could do it its them.

[MothTRD]

i wait and see what up

[sheizen]

get the evo 9, way faster than the evo 8 and it responds better to mods. many people are getting 300+whp with turbo back, boost controller, and ecu reflash.

evo 10 is coming out sometime in 08 but i dont want to buy a 1st year car so i will wait until 09 to get it. but in the mean time i plan to get a 06 evo9 mr.

[eLuSiVeGT-S]

On the track, the current Evo humiliates the Sti in the corners. I think the Evo looks a lot more aggressive & refined than the Sti. Subaru really ***ked up the front fascia of the '06 rex. Either way, both cars are great in my opinion.

[Invision Celica]

thats correct, right now the evo is a champ on the circuit, nothing can touch it.

as for downsides, the gas mileage sucks and the turning radius is also not too good.

[ballistic]

what makes the evo so easy to steal???

[fokai]

downside is the price to insure it. check out this link and scroll down to a little past the middle of the page. it shows the top 10 costliest cars to insure.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourCar/10CostliestCarsToInsure.aspx

[ren0]

It's a mitsubishi, that's the downside. I hear constantly of their reliability issues. If you own one, make sure you have a full set of tools with you at all times. Either that or a Cell phon and AAA.

[MothTRD]

what kind of problem i might run into if i get the 06 evo mr?

[Zenith]

mitsu's are generally good or bad, you will have chronic problems or none at all. although in the evo world i have yet to hear of major problems or typical mitsu chronic issues.

[sheizen]

i have not heard any problems from the evo, its a perfect car.

[marc]

small gas tank, ****ty gas mileage.

Ben drove his EVO to Outer banks, Julia drove her Mazda 3. He had to fill up twice as much as her.

[Invision Celica]

gas does suck.

180-220 on a full tank.

[ren0]

mitsu's are generally good or bad, you will have chronic problems or none at all. although in the evo world i have yet to hear of major problems or typical mitsu chronic issues.
exactly what i was going to say. some people i know have tons of problems (everything including electrics and ****) but then other people have zero problems.

i haven't heard much about the newer evos but i figured it would stay for all mitsubishi's. but you never know, they might've worked all the kinks out by now.

[drinkingmymilk]

as far as the warrenty goes, its completley up to the dealer if they want to honor it or not. i know of two evo 8 in a local car club both sitting on jackstands because they shot rods through the motor while driving down the highway at 80 on a hot day. both brought the cars back to mitsu where one was told you intake voids it and the second was told your rims do. the **** kicker with the rims is they are the same size as the stock but about 5lbs lighter.

[sbocaj55]

Downside is gas, insurance, driveability and turbo lag. If you are using it to race...you'll love it. Stop and go traffic for 20 mins and you will want to sell it. It's the most expensive car to insure (other than exotics I guess). Top gear did a "race" in top gear from 40mph and some ****ty european station was beating it for something like a mile or something.

Other than that it looks and performs totally wicked.

[drewd]

The EVO is a great car all around..
I'd rather turbo my celica because of it's go-kart handling and standard feathures, like cruise control and other small things, but its all a matter of opinion.
Though my friend just had to replace his EVO 8 clutch at 40k miles..

[nudge1201]

Downside is gas, insurance, driveability and turbo lag. If you are using it to race...you'll love it. Stop and go traffic for 20 mins and you will want to sell it. It's the most expensive car to insure (other than exotics I guess). Top gear did a "race" in top gear from 40mph and some ****ty european station was beating it for something like a mile or something.

Other than that it looks and performs totally wicked.

I have no issues in traffic, it drives like any regular DD when off boost. Road trips are what suck having no cruise. That top gear episode was of the Evo 8 FQ-400 that is fitted with a huge turbo that doesn't kick in till 5k, in a regular IX there isn't much lag. At 2500 rpm you have 85% of your torque and full spool(20.1psi) at 3500rpm.

[neological]

Wow, glad I saw this thread finally. There is almost no true information here and a lot of suspect views being thrown around as facts. Where to begin...

The EVO is a great car all around..
I'd rather turbo my celica because of it's go-kart handling and standard feathures, like cruise control and other small things, but its all a matter of opinion.
Though my friend just had to replace his EVO 8 clutch at 40k miles..

A turbo Celica handles like ass compared to an Evo. My old celica handled extremely well and it was setup for STS autocross and it really isn't comparable to the evo. Add too much HP to a Celica and you'll have all the crazy high powered FWD problems. If you're going over 210 hp, you'll want AWD or RWD. Oh, and if it doesn't have a Quaife it'll be useless and handle like a shopping cart.

Downside is gas, insurance, driveability and turbo lag. If
you are using it to race...you'll love it.

gas sucks, but it's a sportscar. 95% of them get terrible gas mileage, it's not an Evo problem.

Stop and go traffic for 20 mins and you will want to sell it. It's the most expensive car to insure (other than exotics I guess).

I live in downtown Washington DC and drive my Evo through some of the most infamous city traffic in the world every day. The car is never tempremental or difficult to drive in any way. If you stay off boost it drives more or less like a normal sedan. People are always suprised by 2 things about the car 1) It drives very well when you're not flogging it and 2) the interior is nicer than everyone has been told or read in magazines. Yes, the STi interior is nicer but it isn't as if the Evo is made of carboard and masking tape.

I pay $160 a month for insurance, 40 bucks more than my celica.

Top gear did a "race" in top gear from 40mph and some ****ty european station was beating it for something like a mile or something.


Both cars started at 30mph in top gear (5th for the wagon, 6th for the Evo). They only proved that a car with a huge 5000rpm+ turbo can't accelerate when its 4 shifts out of gear. This proves nothing about the USDM Evo IX, which has a totally different turbo. Plus, the test itself is fairly retarded and proves nothing, any turbo car pretty much sucks if it's undershifted by 4 gears.

what makes the evo so easy to steal???

It comes with no anti theft devices except for an engine immobiliser, the engine is very popular to swap, a lot of people want to steal the MIVEC top end off of the IX and the new turbo. It's also popular and noticeable, which makes it a target. The seats are also a common target of theft. It's not particularly easy to steal (my celica had unframed glass which basically makes any car easy to break in to) but it is a big target for theives.

as for downsides, the gas mileage sucks and the turning radius is also not too good.

You're right, the standing turning circle is utterly pathetic. A jumbo jet can make a 3 point turn with less space.

:werd: no point in buying the current model. Its basically on its way out.

Not a really an overly intelligent statement. The new Evo won't be out until 2008 and will be a totally different car (not lancer based) with a different engine (no 4g63T) and will probably cost about 7-10k more. All reasons to consider buying a IX. It's the last "Lancer" evolution. The new Evo will pretty much be it's own thing, I for one was never interested in the Evo X, seems like a totally new concept.

I agree with that however I think that Mitsubishi is probally wanting to at least match or beat the current hp/trq figures that subarus 2.5 is making for their next gen evo's.

Stock '06 STi: 240hp/251tq (weight= 3351 lb)
http://members.nasioc.com/UserPics/22929/Dyno.jpg

Stock '06 Evo IX: 242hp/249tq (weight= 3262 lb)
http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/2878.jpg

I could only find a dynapack for the STi and a dynojet for the Evo, but Dynapacks tend to be the most "optimistic" dynos.

To argue that one is faster than the other based on engine displacement is insane, as the IX's 2.0 is clearly just as powerful as subaru's 2.5 (the Evo also weighs 100 pounds less) the 2.0 engine is a huge advantage in countries that tax cars by displacement which is why only America gets the 2.5 STi. there is really not much of a power gap between the 2 cars, if there is it's now in the Evo's favor. The evo IX responds a lot better to bolt ons than the STi as well: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1462164&postid=19035608

Your spy shot of an 08 evo is an 06 Evo. I have one in my sig. the 08 evo is hideous imo.

Hey Sarith, You getting a new car? as far as speed goes STI>EVO>350z however the sti and evo are so close that it really comes down to the driver. I would suggest either getting a 2004-2006 subaru sti or waiting for the next gen evo's because those also look pretty cool. In my opinion the Evo is just like a dodge srt-4, its fast as hell but the styling is terrible.

The STi is not any faster than an evo in a straight line, (remember, the Evo is 100 pounds lighter and has similar dyno figures) and most of the STis I have driven (a stock 06, an 04 with JIC FLT-A2s and a stock 05) handle really sloppily compared to an Evo. The have more midrange and low end torque but they get abused around 5000 rpm +. I think you're the first person I've ever seen prefer the styling of a STi ver 9 over an Evo (or compare it's looks to an SRT) but there's no accounting for taste.

[Invision Celica]

from my personaly experience the evo handled way better than the sti.

the sti with the bigger 2.5l motor is faster than a evo with the same bolt on mods.

a stock evo8 is a low 13 sec car stock. you get a downpipe, exhaust, intake, boost controller, cams, cam gears and a good ecu reflash and you will be at 300+ whp and doing low 12 sec. now throw in a turbo manifold, fuel pump and injectors and you will be at 350+whp, mid to high 11 sec on stock turbo.

a evo9 with mivec is a whole diff story. downpipe, exhaust, boost controller and your already at 300whp, no need for cams and cam gear like the evo8.

its probably the best tuner car you can get right now.

catagories that make a car nice, looks, handling and power. evo has all 3.

[Predator]

Not a really an overly intelligent statement. The new Evo won't be out until 2008 and will be a totally different car (not lancer based) with a different engine (no 4g63T) and will probably cost about 7-10k more. All reasons to consider buying a IX. It's the last "Lancer" evolution. The new Evo will pretty much be it's own thing, I for one was never interested in the Evo X, seems like a totally new concept.

Maybe if you actually read what i said in its entirety instead of picking out one sentence it would have made more sense. Most of us here who dont have money to throw around consider a new car purchase to be a serious matter, and personally i dont consider a year to be too long a wait to properly weigh and consider all viable alternatives.

Fact of the matter is, an Evo is an Evo, it is hardly ever associated by most people with its Lancer heritage.
It doesnt matter whether or not they are based on the same platform, they are still going to be compared, and it wont help if it is indeed labelled as the Evo X, because that will just concretise it in most peoples minds as indeed being the successor to the Evo IX, and therefore establishing even stronger grounds for the inevitable comparisons. Also, we all know by now from experience that even "official" info. released by these car manufacturers about an upcoming model cannot be taken to heart, and are as subject to change as any piece of info randomly churned out by the rumor mill. So basically all we can do now is to really speculate as to what the X will finally cost or offer.

On the subject of price, yes it is a crucial factor, i agree, which further reinforces my point that if he is not averse to buying something used, waiting to see what the X will offer will most likely open up cheaper avenues of acquiring a 9 if thats what he finally decides.
In defense of the X though, Mitsubishi has always marketed the Evo as possessing the performance of cars that cost far more, it seems unlikely to me that they would choose a platform which would add 7-10k to the price tag of the car and risk alienating a huge segment of their target market

My personal opinion is nothing more than that, a PERSONAL OPINION. Ultimately the choice is up to him. Your opinion although potentially biased, appears to be based on reasonably sound arguments so i would not fault him for going the route you suggest.

I was simply saying that if he's not desperate for a car, and isnt obsessive about it being brand spanking new, then there's no harm in waiting.


catagories that make a car nice, LOOKS, handling and power. evo has all 3.

:ugh:

[marc]

Downside is gas, insurance, driveability and turbo lag. If you are using it to race...you'll love it. Stop and go traffic for 20 mins and you will want to sell it. It's the most expensive car to insure (other than exotics I guess). Top gear did a "race" in top gear from 40mph and some ****ty european station was beating it for something like a mile or something.

Other than that it looks and performs totally wicked.

that would be a 3 cylinder 1.3L suzuki swift in 5th gear beating an evo in 6th gear from a highway roll due to the turbo lag.

[marc]

I REALLY like the car - but it only looks good in black.

[MothTRD]

im not gonna use the evo for racing just everyday driving here and there. i do like how it look, the new sti doesnt look that nice to me. evo look better

[neological]

Maybe if you actually read what i said in its entirety instead of picking out one sentence it would have made more sense.
Hostile? Maybe just a bit?
Most of us here who dont have money to throw around consider a new car purchase to be a serious matter, and personally i dont consider a year to be too long a wait to properly weigh and consider all viable alternatives.
I'm a public high school teacher, if you think I have money to throw around than you're delusional. I saved up money for years to pay for my Evo, I wasn't handed it. I weighed options before buying my car. I probably drove more cars in the course of making my decision than you have during your last 2 years of your life. That's meant as an insult and it probaly is not an exaggeration. I put a ton of research into it.
Fact of the matter is, an Evo is an Evo, it is hardly ever associated by most people with its Lancer heritage.
Just because you never associated it with it's lancer heritage doesn't mean the entire rest of the world didn't. The thing says "Lancer" right on it and shares a lot of interior and exterior bits. It's not trying to hide it's heritage, I think anybody would be able to tell you what car an Evo is based on in <.5 seconds. Do you really think that the Evo didn't sell any Lancer ES models due to the halo effect?
It doesnt matter whether or not they are based on the same platform, they are still going to be compared, and it wont help if it is indeed labelled as the Evo X, because that will just concretise it in most peoples minds as indeed being the successor to the Evo IX, and therefore establishing even stronger grounds for the inevitable comparisons.
I'm not claiming people won't compare it to an Evo, or disputing the fact that it will be dubbed an "Evo." It just won't really be a LANCER Evo unless they base it on a LANCER. It's a simple statement.
Also, we all know by now from experience that even "official" info. released by these car manufacturers about an upcoming model cannot be taken to heart, and are as subject to change as any piece of info randomly churned out by the rumor mill. So basically all we can do now is to really speculate as to what the X will finally cost or offer.
My mitsubishi dealership swears it will cost at least 40k, if not much, much more for a top of line model. There is not attempt to make it into a cheaper or comparably priced car to what it is now, and a top end MR goes for 36k.
On the subject of price, yes it is a crucial factor, i agree, which further reinforces my point that if he is not averse to buying something used, waiting to see what the X will offer will most likely open up cheaper avenues of acquiring a 9 if thats what he finally decides.
I just don't think the 06 IX will depreciate much over 3-4 years and the ones you're going to get used won't exactly be the "low milage, old lady just took it to the grocery store every week variety."
My personal opinion is nothing more than that, a PERSONAL OPINION. Ultimately the choice is up to him. Your opinion although potentially biased, appears to be based on reasonably sound arguments so i would not fault him for going the route you suggest.
Everyone here is biased, but how would my Mitsubishi bias matter if I was informing someone of basic facts? Truth to be known, I don't really give a crap about Mitsu, I decided to buy the best car I could for what I do around 30k and this was it. In fact, I think Mitsu pretty much makes the crappiest cars in japan + the Evo. I would never, ever purchase another Mitsubishi product.
I was simply saying that if he's not desperate for a car, and isnt obsessive about it being brand spanking new, then there's no harm in waiting.
True enough, I'm just pointing out that the X will be quite dissimilar to the IX in many ways and the IX will probably not significantly depreciate in the next 4 years, especially when you take into account the condition of used Evos an the market. I have heard way, way to many "I bought a used Evo" horror stories.

All I'm saying is that the X is a totally different project from the IX and will not take the traditional "Evo" approach of starting with a Lancer Chassis and dropping an ACD and a 4G63T in. It will just be a totally new car.

[neological]

I REALLY like the car - but it only looks good in black.


Haha, ditto with your Z4. I hate that car in every other color.

[drewd]

What would an evo run N/A no boost? j/w what the engine itself puts down

[nudge1201]

BTW the only shared exterior parts are the trunk. :)

[neological]

BTW the only shared exterior parts are the trunk. :)

Actually, a Lancer ES trunk won't fit an Evo. Its ever so slightly differently shaped and not made out of aluminum.

[neological]

What would an evo run N/A no boost? j/w what the engine itself puts down

it's an 8.8:1 CR on a 2.0 engine. It would be slow as hell.

[Butt Dyno]

On the track, the current Evo humiliates the Sti in the corners. Oversimplify much?

Evo 8 MR vs 2005 STi, *on the same tires.*
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/9052/why-do-these-similar-cars-feel-so-different.html

It's an old article but you get the jist. To say that it humilates the STi when the cars are that close is just not true.

Oh and I forget if Ben already said this but anyone who buys an Evo 9 MR, instead of the regular Evo 9, needs to have their head examined.

john

[EuGeNiLe GTS]

reliability, these are EVOLUTIONS man, these cars are legends in japan. Yes the reliability reputation of mitsubishi has been tarnished by my DSMs, haha, but even that has been overrated. Just make sure you keep up with the maintenance and you know what your doing when modding it.

I wouldnt wait on the next gen EVO. It's not going to have the 4g63 which is a bummer. The 4g63 has been proven and been around for a very long time.

Keep in mind I speak from a tuner's perspective. If you don't plan on modding the 4g63, then you prob. won't care about modding the next gen evo. So it doesn't matter. But when you can make 300+AllWheelHP with a tune, turboback, mbc, intake/filter on the stock 2.0L, how can you resist? if you can.. then maybe you should get an STi. :) i only say that because yes stock vs stock they are so close, and as a daily driver because of the bigger displacement the STi should be more applicable. But start throwing mods and my oh my.. well, just see all the shootout coverages. on dsm/evo sites. or just what modifications are doing in general to EVOs.

oh yea i forgot these things handle freaking great! as a dsm owner most only use our 4g63 and awd for the drag strip. i felt the handling on a regular stock EVO 8 and damn it felt so stable at high speed turns, only imagine an MR.

If you buy used, just think of it like when the WRX first came out. All those new young owners. First AWD turbo car. Coming from some kind of slow n/a fwd car. Thinking because they have AWD they own the road. Dumping the clutch at floored redline rpms. Increasing the boost with no supporting mods or tuning. Those are the ones you have to watch out for. In a few more years the early WRXs will be the reincarnation of the unreliable 1g DSMs muwahha. It all starts from the previous owner.

[Zenith]

i will say that if you drive an evo and STi/STI and think the STi/STI handling is sloppy, all you need is a set of pinkies (jspec STi stock springs, called pinkies because they are pink) and a sway bar. i say this from personal experiance.

as to the modding, it tends to be more expensive for an STi/STI although you get more. i see people who's first mod is a UTEC and with that they will never need another computer (even though its a piggyback it has the functions of a standalone) no matter if that is their first and only mod or the first one on the long road to a large turbo.

also, for those hyping modded numbers of an evo, i would direct your attention to
http://www.pdxtuning.com/sti_dyno.htm
apparently you can get ~280whp ~270wtq with JUST a reflash (or UTEC with new map) . nice.

[Butt Dyno]

i will say that if you drive an evo and STi/STI and think the STi/STI handling is sloppy, all you need is a set of pinkies (jspec STi stock springs, called pinkies because they are pink) and a sway bar. i say this from personal experiance.

as to the modding, it tends to be more expensive for an STi/STI although you get more. i see people who's first mod is a UTEC and with that they will never need another computer (even though its a piggyback it has the functions of a standalone) no matter if that is their first and only mod or the first one on the long road to a large turbo.

also, for those hyping modded numbers of an evo, i would direct your attention to
http://www.pdxtuning.com/sti_dyno.htm
apparently you can get ~280whp ~270wtq with JUST a reflash (or UTEC with new map) . nice.
UTEC has the functions of a standalone??

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11521875&postcount=17
What's wrong with the UTEC?
Well, the UTEC maps can be envisioned as three separate spreadsheets. The timing and fueling maps have 10 load columns (from ECU to 100% load) and 35 rpm rows (250rpm increments from 500-9000rpm). The boost map within a utec map swaps "load" for "tps %" but is otherwise the same so you have three maps controlling timing, boost, and fuel that are all 10x35 matrices. Of course, you can switch UTEC maps on the fly but that doesn't do anything for total driveability if you only have a 10x35 matrix controlling the timing or the fuel. Of course, the UTEC will do a linear interpolation between any load sites but that still doesn't leave you much room for very fine tuning control. Also, UTEC has no control once you are below the user-set TPS position. The default throttle position crossover point is 60% but you can turn it all the way down to 25 (thus gaining more throttle control range but losing fine tuning resolution everywhere above that). You are left with one little 10x35 (really since you aren't revving past 7250rpm, your maps are only good for 10x28) matrix to control timing or fuel for an entire range of engine temperatures, intake air temps, fuel quality, humidity, etc. The only thing you have with UTEC to account for the environmental variables is a simple If/Then parameter that allows you to say "if temp reaches <whatever>, add x% fuel and pull y% timing". This is a little less than ideal and leaves a lot to be desired, but it takes care of it reasonably well I guess.

So what makes the stock ECU so special?
With the stock ECU, the maps themselves are like 16 load columns (thus much finer control) and maybe 20 rpm rows. but there are multiple timing and fuel maps. There are also various entire maps to account for different operating temps, fuel qualities, humidity, etc..

The idea is the "base timing map" would have the most retarded ignition necessary to run the engine at worst case (limp mode). Then you have an "advance map" where it contains a value that is added to the base map. The value in this, when added to the base value, would give you the most advanced timing for best-case (superb fuel, no knock, etc) running. There are similar map pairs for fuel, boost, etc. The ECU will add a certain percentage of the advance map based on a "fuel quality factor" known as Ignition Advance Multiplier which is just a single quantity (from 0-16) that the ecu continually modifies based on current conditions, quality of fuel, history of knock events, etc. There is ALSO a knock map which simply applies a small correction for knock events encountered in the past. This way, if you're just getting knock at say 4500rpm and 8psi, the entire rpm range doesn't have to suffer - it makes the correction at that load site (via negative knockcorrection) and you thereby avoid knocking there in the future. It will gradually test these sites as time goes on, giving back knock correction value each time to make sure you're running closer to max but if it encounters the knock again, it'll yank it back for awhile once again.

So final timing run = (basemap) + (IAM/16)*(advancemap) + (knockcorrection). So if the ECU has detected really crappy fuel it might yank the IAM back to 0 in which case your final timing would be just whatever is in the basemap (or even less if there is negative knock correction applied there). If the ECU determines that everything is okay again, it will slowly advance the IAM back up to the normal level of 12-16 or so giving you most of or all of the advancemap added to the base timing.

This is all great, but then we have the benefits of the Stock ECU's fueling scheme which is quite simply light years ahead of UTEC. It includes learning closed loop + adaptive open loop.

Basically, "closed loop" means that the engine is using the oxygen sensor to monitor the AFR and make corrections in realtime as necessary. There are several 'parameters' that alter the fueling at any one moment but you are basically starting with a base fueling map that will have the optimum fuel required for any given load site and then there is a "Fuel Correction" value that is a result of the oxygen sensor's input. this is a realtime instaneous correction applied to the fueling. Then there is also a "Fuel Learning" value that is a result of the ECU remembering how much Fuel Correction was needed last time it visited a particular load site. The more you hit a particular load site, the more accurately the ECU will adjust the Fuel Learning value. The reason we need learning and not just instantaneous open loop correction is that waiting for the Oxygen Sensor to give a reading and THEN applying the correction is inherently a laggy process such that it's much smoother and quicker for the ECU to just have those values memorized and apply them at the exact instant they are needed. You still have the Fuel Correction value being applied and over time, the correction values will grow smaller and smaller as the optimal Learning values are pinpointed by the ECU. This is all just for Closed Loop fueling (which is what happens when you're under 60% throttle or low boost, cruising on the freeway, etc). Typically in Closed Loop the ECU will try to achieve a primary goal of clean emissions (through running the minimum amount of fuel required for safe running at any given load site) but as you pile on the load (press the gas pedal more) you will gradually see the ECU move towards a little bit richer running which will give the power that is needed for that amount of load.

When you press the pedal past 60%, you now enter Open Loop, where the oxygen sensor is removed from the "loop" and now the ECU is only looking up the fueling based on the map's load point.. BUT there is a beautiful feature built in that brings the Learning Value over from Closed Loop operation and translates it into its own quantity based on predictive extrapolation of what would be needed at higher loads given what was needed at lower loads. This is how it is *possible* to drive around with an APS 70mm cold air intake (which would make a utec-equipped car run INCREDIBLY lean instead of just a little lean at WOT) and why it is *possible* to install bigger Sti injectors and then drive around for a little while before your tuning appointment - the ECU is able to determine an average amount of correction needed and apply it across the board. There are limits to this though and those limits lie at roughly 25% correction.

OK GREAT, the Stock ECU sounds fantastic, so why does everybody buy aftermarket management????
If you're asking this, it's a great question and the answer is simple. Although the basic algorithms and hardware control of the ECU is beyond the capability of something like UTEC, it is still PROGRAMMED (via the values in the map) to put Fuel Efficiency, Safety, and Longevity ahead of performance and thus performance suffers. An ecu reprogrammer (like ECUTek which you can have done by Vishnu, PDXTuning, Subaru of Gwinnett, TopSpeed, Kingpin, etc) will be able to go in, alter those advance maps, afr target maps, boost maps, wastegate behavior (how fast the boost comes on), etc. Basically, they can make the Stock ecu control the car with performance a little bit higher on the compromise chain than say, fuel efficiency or longevity. Now I'm NOT saying that getting an ECU reflash is going to make your engine wear out faster - that's up to you and the tuner as to how much margin for safety you give up. In fact, some tuners claim MORE margin for safety through different methodology and tuning theory (like for instance maybe getting the power from running more timing instead of more boost, etc). And Certainly, the stock ECU's ability to remember where knock was encountered and not keep knocking every time it visits that load site makes it inherently safer and better for engine longevity than a UTEC that was programmed with a bad value somewhere (either due to time/$$ constraints on tuning or just bad tuning) which will knock every single time it visits that load site. Yes, the UTEC pulls timing when it encounters knock, but the stock ECU is smart enough to keep the timing pulled at that load site for some time in the future so you don't KEEP knocking.

OK but I don't like how some days it's fast and other days it's slow (thanks to the knock correction)!
Ok cool - As long as your tuner is careful and experienced, he can make it such that the total timing you run (sum of basemap+advance+knockcorrection) does not exceed the limits of your fuel/boost, etc at a given load site. This way, hopefully you will encounter less knock and be running closer to that max performance more of the time. Imagine trying to trace a line with a Magnum44 Felt Marker. kinda just a blunt approach to targeting the timing values. This is the stock ECU. It makes sure the performance is withing its range of learning and correction somewhere and calls it good. Now go get a Fine Point Sharpie felt pen and trace the same line. this is the well-tuned ECUTek reflashed stock ecu.

What about Cobb Tuning's Accessport?
Well, I mentioned that I wasn't a fan - mostly it's because of complaint/satisfaction ratio (it seems like I hear a LOT more problems from AP users despite the fact that there are FAR MORE ECUtek users out there), lack of product support (horror stories of people trying desperately to get simple issues solved to no avail and the fact that only one place in the entire country tunes it vs the MANY different ECUTek tuners), lack of maps (they only have like 3 or 4 maps and they are all too finely honed (fine point pen) to a particular setup to be applicable to EVERYBODY's car who orders it. Each car is a little bit different so if you make the maps too finely tuned and then sell them to everybody, the simple difference between a Cobb TBE and a TurboXS TBE will cause a signifcant difference in what boost you hit, optimal timing and fueling, etc. Basically, Cobb has a great product but crappy range of tuning, IMHO. This is why some people are absolutely thrilled with their AP and others are very "meh" or even "cobb sucks may car is detonating and only running 12psi!". Of course if you could drive to Utah and have them Dyno Tune your car, it'd be just as good as any ECUTek dyno tune, but remember, the AP is really just an overly onto the stock ecu (no matter how they bill it in their sales literature). It's not actually reflashing the ECU's internal maps - it is only altering a few of the learning maps or something. Truth is, nobody knows how it works, not even Trey Cobb, since he didn't do the programming/hardware development for it and the guy who DID do it quit (this is why Street Tuner is now vaporware - they promised it back when they had a programmer and now they are basically reverse-engineering their own product with a new guy).

If you check out pdxtuning.com or one of the other ECUTek tuners I mentioned, you will see that they offer a wide range of flashes and they are usually willing to tweak a map for you if it it isn't just right for your car. Also, the price is not much higher than AP. Sure, the novelty of map-switching is attractive, but you know you have to plug the AP into your OBD2 port every single time you switch a map? Sounds like fun, eh? With ECUTek, you DO have dual boost maps to choose between (hi and lo) and they can be switched on the fly with the engine running by simply pressing the defog switch and throttle in a certain combination. Usually, you can get it set to minimum boost (about 7psi) for a valet type map and then your normal 15 or 16 whatever psi for yourself driving.

Wow. that was more long-winded than I intended to be. and I'm not trying to cheerlead for ECUTek, but I honestly believe it's the best option. You can mail-order an ECUTek reflahed ECU (and possibly send it back and forth a time or two to get it tweaked if necessary) or you can drive to Atlanta for TopSpeed to dyno tune it. or even wait for Vishnu to come around again (they are frequently on the east coast for tuning days - just watch the vishnu forum over at evolutionm.net)

[Zenith]

you are comparing a piggy-back with a flash.

i don't see a launch control feature for ECUTEC. that tends to be something most standalones have isn't it? looks like UTEC has it, and it looks like its the typical function of a standalone. looks like it does. switchable maps too.

also, it is recommended to use both ecutec and utec for some situations
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-959799.html

also with that author saying things like "or something" it leaves me wonderings.

[Butt Dyno]

you are comparing a piggy-back with a flash. You said that the piggyback "has the functions of a standalone".

i don't see a launch control feature for ECUTEC. that tends to be something most standalones have isn't it? looks like UTEC has it, and it looks like its the typical function of a standalone. looks like it does.OK, it has launch control... doesn't make it a standalone. It means it's a piggyback with one extra feature.

also, it is recommended to use both ecutec and utec for some situations
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-959799.html
That doesn't prove it has the functions of a standalone... if anything it proves why it DOESN'T have the functions of a standalone since it requires a reflash to run properly, which is a big part of nhluhr's argument.

You're a perfectly nice person, mind you :) But the UTEC has limits and comparing it to a standalone is a bit off.

john

[Zenith]

you are taking what i said in the wrong context. i'll leave it at that.

edit : i just reread this, i think i came off a bit as a dick, that wasn't my intention, this has been a good thread for the most part and i don't want to ruin it : )

[Q*Spec]

does the mr edition have any performance upgrades other than the wind diffuser on the back windshield?

[neological]

does the mr edition have any performance upgrades other than the wind diffuser on the back windshield?

Differences between Evo IXs, to end all speculation.

Every Evo IX has the same engine, turbo and tune producing the same HP. Same AWD system, same active center diff, same tires, same brembos, same hood. Every model also has A/C and a radio now. A crappy gauge pack is an option on every model. They're listed in order of MSRP.

Stripper model: Evo IX RS

aluminum roof
lightweight trunk lid
5 Speed
Enkei wheels
no trunk lining
no spare tire
no ABS or EBD
no power windows
no spoiler
Black door handles, no matter what color the body is
Only comes in red and white

Base model: Evo IX (often referred to as the "GSR")

steel roof (only Evo IX available with the steel roof, btw)
5 speed
ABS and EBD
Enkei wheels
Power windows
Optional sunroof, 8 speaker sound system, HIDs and cheapass leather seats.
CF spoiler
Comes in many colors

Special Edition: Evo IX SE (aka Evo 9.5)

Everything the GSR has plus..
Aluminum roof
BBS wheels (same as MR but slightly blacker)
Lame red stitching on the Recaros
HIDs
SE badge
Front lip (about .5 inches lower than stock lip)
Only available in Black, sliver and gray.

Mitsubishi Racing: Evo IX MR

Everything the GSR has plus...
BBS wheels
6 speed
HIDs
Optional sunroof, 8 speaker sound and leather
Vortex generator
MR badging
Bilstein monotube shocks
Comes in many colors

[Invision Celica]

i had a sti before.

i raced my friend's 05 evo mr from a dead stop no launch. at the time he had:
intake, exhaust, downpipe, catdelete, cams, cam gears, ecu dyno tune at 21psi
i had:
intake, exhaust, stock cat no downpipe, ecu with a off-the-self tune, 18psi.

he beat me by half a car. he had more mods but my engine was bigger. 2.5l vs 2.0l

with basic bolt ons the sti is really fast, the only downside is it is hard to get 350 plus hp out of it. with a evo its really really easy to be over 350 hp.

the engine on the sti was great, loved it way better than the evo, but the handling made me sell the car. handles good but not evo good.