E-Manage Ultimate vs. Power FC

[Exotic II]

Trying to find out REAL WHP difference with the Greddy S/C using the Power FC. I would like some honest answers before I spend another 1000 for a ecu.
(could I get the same results adding a Camcon controler?)

[cool2miketlu]

Why don't you find out? Go to a dyno shootout of some sort, dyno your car with emanage first (bet you be suprised what the stock ECU did) and get base map. Then change all settings to 0 then borrow your PowerFC and drop it in and tune it.
If you do not test both management on same car you would not know what the power production difference actually is.

[Curt705]

emanage sucks...power fc will make you more power

[cool2miketlu]

^^see he does not want to hear that without a fact like actual experience or dyno sheet.

You only see people switch from emanage to PowerFC and not the other way around, so that should tell you something.

[Jesse IL]

There's no data because I don't need a dyno to tell you the e-manage is a piece of crap. I wouldn't waste my time or money doing the comparison.

[jlitman]

The PFC is much more versatile, so even if you couldn't extract more power, it is still a far better platform for tuning. That said, you can tune VVTL-i with a PFC but NOT with an emanage, and there is plenty of power to be made by tuning intake timing. As soon as Boosted makes a harness and base map for AT's, I'm selling off my emanage and camcon.

[Monster Hui]

PFC is a full standalone ecu... comparing "power gain" to the piggy back EMU? I don't know what power gain would be different, but im sure you can unlock more power with a full stand alone than any other piggy back systems on our stock ECU... comparing the PFC to EMU is like comparing the emanage to a safc.


you can do A LOT more with the PFC, the stock ECU can only go so far with piggy back systems

[Exotic II]

It really sucks because I was not given an option when S/C kit was purchased. Oh well, time to start saving. :sadpace:

[cool2miketlu]

you will never be given that option considering emanage and SC is made by GReddy, ofcourse they will package their stuff with it. The only kit that really give you any option is Blitz SC kit

[elcelicagts]

greddy charge rules!!!!

[Jesse IL]

greddy charge rules!!!!

Figured since 140 GT got banned and milesplume totaled his car there's room at the top of the idiot hierarchy?

[elcelicagts]

^ ha hah ha. just bored, and thought you might come here and say something like that against my post. lol.

[bt216]

I told you before and I'll tell you again...PFC. btw you can get it for a lot less then 1000 now.

[Exotic II]

Might keep the e-manage a little longer. I am woring on a design for a custom manifold for the greddy s/c to make intercooling possible. I looked at how the Blitz kit works & I got an idea. The people at the performance shop I help out at think the can fab it.

[Jesse IL]

^ ha hah ha. just bored, and thought you might come here and say something like that against my post. lol.

Glad to see posting spam helps your boredom.
greddy charge rules!!!!

So does O'Doyle!!!

[Gravel]

There's no data because I don't need a dyno to tell you the e-manage is a piece of crap. I wouldn't waste my time or money doing the comparison.

Do Apexi run a 'publicly slag off an eManage and get a $10 rebate per slagging' scheme?

I'm just waiting for the 'I had an eManage and it ate my hamster' posts :rolleyes:

Yes, a PowerFC is more capable than an eManage Ult, but it is also a lot more complicated to tune. Oh, and a Hydra will blow you and cook you breakfast before driving you to work in the morning, or so they say...

[Gravel]

Might keep the e-manage a little longer. I am woring on a design for a custom manifold for the greddy s/c to make intercooling possible. I looked at how the Blitz kit works & I got an idea. The people at the performance shop I help out at think the can fab it.

Seeing as The Ronin has already made one, it's clearly possible if you can make it fit under the hood. The eManage won't give you ultimate power, but then again, neither will a roots blower...

[Boosted2.0]

I still maintain that an e-manage on a FI car is sheer stupidity - the VVTi profiles in the stock ECU alow you to blow a good bit of your intake charge right back out the exhaust, and theers no way to change it. Plus theres no way to make fueling changes stick out of closed loop so you're running the AFs the stock ECU wants to run except at WOT

For forced induction its PFC or Hydra for the win IMO.

[Gravel]

I still maintain that an e-manage on a FI car is sheer stupidity - the VVTi profiles in the stock ECU alow you to blow a good bit of your intake charge right back out the exhaust, and theers no way to change it. Plus theres no way to make fueling changes stick out of closed loop so you're running the AFs the stock ECU wants to run except at WOT

For forced induction its PFC or Hydra for the win IMO.

I didn't realise the stock VVT timings were that bad :crazy2:

Can't you just force the stock ECU to stick in open loop by spoofing the water temp? This: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h44.pdf seems to imply that the ECU runs open loop when the car is cold...

I would also have thought that the Ultimate's analog output could be used to spoof the ECU into thinking the A/F is 14.7:1 when it isn't.

[Boosted2.0]

I still maintain that an e-manage on a FI car is sheer stupidity - the VVTi profiles in the stock ECU alow you to blow a good bit of your intake charge right back out the exhaust, and theers no way to change it. Plus theres no way to make fueling changes stick out of closed loop so you're running the AFs the stock ECU wants to run except at WOT

For forced induction its PFC or Hydra for the win IMO.

I didn't realise the stock VVT timings were that bad :crazy2:

Can't you just force the stock ECU to stick in open loop by spoofing the water temp? This: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h44.pdf seems to imply that the ECU runs open loop when the car is cold...

I would also have thought that the Ultimate's analog output could be used to spoof the ECU into thinking the A/F is 14.7:1 when it isn't.


Nope - Toyota ECUs hit closed lop in a matter of like 15 seconds after startup these days. Basically closed loop fuel control comes online as soon as the O2 sensors are up to temp, which, since they have their own heaters, happens mighty fast

[Boosted2.0]

I didn't realise the stock VVT timings were that bad :crazy2:


Its not bad - overlap is GOOD for NA motors - it allows for scavenging and better cylinder fill. FI is a WHOLE different ballgame.

[Gravel]

Nope - Toyota ECUs hit closed lop in a matter of like 15 seconds after startup these days. Basically closed loop fuel control comes online as soon as the O2 sensors are up to temp, which, since they have their own heaters, happens mighty fast

Tedious, but interesting, if you know what I mean - thanks!

What about spoofing the narrow band O2 to keep it looking like stoich - or does the ECU deliberately perturb the A/F to check the sensors?

[Jesse IL]

Do Apexi run a 'publicly slag off an eManage and get a $10 rebate per slagging' scheme?
Quite honestly I need a translation on this :chuckles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjKXE17sYmM

[Gravel]

Quite honestly I need a translation on this :chuckles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjKXE17sYmM

Gor blimey Guv'nor, that's nearly as bad an 'English' accent as Dick bloody Van Dyke in Mary Poppins - second only to the 'English' guy in Ocean's Eleven :ugh:

Sorry mate - I'm not sure I speak septic, but I'll give it a go :D

English: Do Apexi run a 'publicly slag off an eManage and get a $10 rebate per slagging' scheme?

English --> US English dictionary
Slag = slut, (w)ho(re) etc
To slag-off / slagging = put down - speak badly of, 'dis'


It never ceases to amuse me when I read stuff like:

Man, you have some serious 5hit on your car - that's one sick ride

to me, that's an insult:

Your car is covered in some heavy duty cr@p - and runs like cr@p too :)

[monkeywrench]

Emanage ultimate does its job well but that job is just to make the car run safely. You can adjust fuel and spark to get those two close to right. It's far from optimized overall.

The Power FC lets you adjust everything so you can get the car 100% right. Idle, VVT, VVL, rev limiter, throttle response... you name it. For forced induction it's a must in my opinion. We would not have gotten gains even in the same league with the 412whp we made on the stock engine in our GTS shop car without the PFC.

[Boosted2.0]

Nope - Toyota ECUs hit closed lop in a matter of like 15 seconds after startup these days. Basically closed loop fuel control comes online as soon as the O2 sensors are up to temp, which, since they have their own heaters, happens mighty fast

Tedious, but interesting, if you know what I mean - thanks!

What about spoofing the narrow band O2 to keep it looking like stoich - or does the ECU deliberately perturb the A/F to check the sensors?


Theoretically possible but never been done to my knowledge - the problem is the logic fro front sensor control is way smarter than rear sensor - its waaaay harder to fool. Technically speaking you could actually TUNE a car (AF wise) by only modifying the front O2 sensor output and letting the fuel trims do the work for you. It would be hard as hell to do though - standalone is soo much easier.

[vegeta4ss]

one of the main points you might want to consider ExoticII is that you live in NC and if your county isn't already an emissions testing one, it will be fully converted by late 2008. You will have to pass your sniffer test, as well as the obd2 check....so if your going to run a PFC on the daily, then I suggest keeping the emanage around with a really good tune so whenever inspection time hits you can pull the switcharoo and manage to pass your inspection.

[6speedGTS]

one of the main points you might want to consider ExoticII is that you live in NC and if your county isn't already an emissions testing one, it will be fully converted by late 2008. You will have to pass your sniffer test, as well as the obd2 check....so if your going to run a PFC on the daily, then I suggest keeping the emanage around with a really good tune so whenever inspection time hits you can pull the switcharoo and manage to pass your inspection.

In New Hampshire we all ready have the OBD2 down load and snifter. So keeping the E Manage and stock ECU for State inspections is a good idea. Swap ECU a week before inspection and replace it after inspection with the stand alone.

[wts]

E-manage works just fine on a 1ZZ

[Boosted2.0]

E-manage works just fine on a 1ZZ


No it doesn't. You still can't tune VVTi, you can't truly gontrol ignition sincethe stock maps are variable and you are just changing the stock number, and the stock ECY will fight your fueling corrections on everything but WOT.

Piggybacks (E-manage included) suck - period end of sentence.

[wts]

No it doesn't. You still can't tune VVTi,
Dont need to. The stock cams and their timing is "good enough".
you can't truly gontrol ignition sincethe stock maps are variable and you are just changing the stock number I'm running stock timing.the stock ECY will fight your fueling corrections on everything but WOT. True, but with careful monitoring of the STFT's its possible to have a tune that doesnt create LTFT's that adversely affect boost fueling.

Piggybacks (E-manage included) suck - period end of sentence.They certainly can be problematic and dont belong in an all-out effort. But the EM has proven itself "good enough" in this DD street application. Admittedly, its not tuned to the ragged edge and probably CANT be with a piggy-back.

[Boosted2.0]

Dont need to. The stock cams and their timing is "good enough".
Yea, for Naturally aspirated engines or people without aspirations of making any kind of real power.

I'm running stock timing.
Obviously - which us not a great idea on a forced induction application - perhaps you've heard of this little thing called detonation?

True, but with careful monitoring of the STFT's its possible to have a tune that doesnt create LTFT's that adversely affect boost fueling.
On supercharged applications yes it is possible since throttle position and load correlate exactly to boost level, and I have in fact tuned e-manages to do just that, but on turbo applications its a different story. Its WAAAY to easy to wind up in boost at partial throttle and in closed loop, which creates some very undersireable fueling situations

They certainly can be problematic and dont belong in an all-out effort. But the EM has proven itself "good enough" in this DD street application. Admittedly, its not tuned to the ragged edge and probably CANT be with a piggy-back.
I don't believe in "good enough" where the reliability of a forced induction motor is concerned. Considering the difference in cost between the two is minimal, and the performance and reliability benefits are significant, I'll stick with standalone every time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Piggybacks (E-manage included) suck - period end of sentence.

One peice of advice I will give you is to acually tune your car a little lean in the higher load areas of closed loop so that when the system goes into open loop you have slightly positive fuel trims and not negaitve - its MUCH safer.