Engine Awards - Toyota 1.8 190 awarded!

[spwolf]

Toyota's 1.8 VVTL-i 190 (Celica, Corrola) got awarded with the best engine in 1.4-1.8l range for its performace and fuel economy at Engine Expo in Stuttgart, Germany. Awards are given by Engine Technology International magazine and it is most prestigious engine award.

Adittionally, BMW's 4.4 V8 Valvetronic (745i) won the Engine of the Year award and Honda's 2.0 (S2000, Civic Type R) engine got the best engine award for the 1.8-2.0l range.

Here are the complete awards:

Best new engine 2002: BMW 4.4 V8 Valvetronic (745i)
up to1.0 l: Honda hybrid 1-litre IMA (Insight)
1.0-1.4 l: Honda hybrid 1.3 IMA (Civic)
1.4

[gto78]

what you mean the "Z06" engine isnt on the list..LOL

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

you mean the toyota engine that companies feel dont have enough for there aftermarket support.

[GTS LAID]

I have soooo much respect for the 2zz after reading all the technical articles... these people no joke did a shizzload of R&D to get that engine the way it is...

funny thing... i'd like to see a 1.7 - 2 liter shootout between the 2zz and the F20C (the s2000 engine)

THAT would be interesting

[spwolf]

F20C has more midrange response, not to mention more hp :(

[GTS LAID]

not to mention more displacement... thats no the kind of comparo i wanna see... i'd rather see someone talk about it like those two SAE articles did the one for the s2000 and the one for the 2zz

[spwolf]

Actually, there was a good article in Top Gear comparing Corrola TS to Type R... Corrola has 2zz and new Civic Type R F20C... Corrola is about 15 pounds lighter... (and celica is like 100-something pounds lighter than Corrola)

Type R Corrola TS
0-30mph 3.4sec 3.1sec
0-50mph 6.1sec 5.7sec
0-60mph 7.9sec 7.3sec
0-70mph 9.8sec 10sec
0-100mph 17.6sec 18.6sec

Standing 1/4 16sec 15.8sec
Max Speed 140mph 133mph

30-50mph
in 3rd 3.6 4.3
in 4th 4.9 5.8

50-70mph
in 5th 6.8 8.9
in 6th 9.9 10.7

30-70mph
(thru gears) 6.4 6.9

Test MPG 26.7 29.2

So not really bad huh? tests were done in slightly wet track, and Type R had much more issues with putting the power down than Corrola... TS is $1k cheaper and has loads of equipment, while Type R is bare bones...

[NSX_GTR_LM]

look at BMW, they are so impressive.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by GTS LAID
not to mention more displacement... thats no the kind of comparo i wanna see... i'd rather see someone talk about it like those two SAE articles did the one for the s2000 and the one for the 2zz

The F20C (S2000 engine) produces 240 hp out of 2.0 liters vs. the 2zz's 180 hp out of 1.8. The 2zz is a good engine, but it's no contest for the F20.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


The F20C (S2000 engine) produces 240 hp out of 2.0 liters vs. the 2zz's 180 hp out of 1.8. The 2zz is a good engine, but it's no contest for the F20.
Agreed. They are very different engines. There's a reason they are in two very differently priced cars.

[pj808]

lets see..240hp/2.0ltr=120p/ltr
1.8ltr*120hp/ltr=216hp which I think could be reached with I/E and a 9,000 rev range. Most folks with I/E are seeing around 200hp at the flywheel. I don't think the Honda motor has as much tuning potential as does the Toyota. But at any rate, it is good to see Toyota getting some praises on their engineering ability.
pj

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by pj808
lets see..240hp/2.0ltr=120p/ltr
1.8ltr*120hp/ltr=216hp which I think could be reached with I/E and a 9,000 rev range...I don't think the Honda motor has as much tuning potential as does the Toyota.
pj

Speculation.;)

[CIN]

The 2ZZ produces 192hp in Japan and Europe. Also in Japan there is a 200-210hp version. It is on the Celica TRD M.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by CIN
The 2ZZ produces 192hp in Japan and Europe. Also in Japan there is a 200-210hp version. It is on the Celica TRD M.

Your numbers are slightly off.

In any case, ALOT of engines are rated higher in Japan. B16A's have 160 hp here, 170 PS in Japan, B18C1's have 170 hp here, 180 PS in Japan, and so on and so on. The F20C has at least 250 PS in Japan. The TRD M's 2zz is rated at 200 PS because it has a TRD air filter and exhaust on the car.

I don't wanna come off as a Toyota hater, but I just try to be objective and unbiased about stuff.;)

[iNteGraz92]

Originally posted by CIN
The 2ZZ produces 192hp in Japan and Europe. Also in Japan there is a 200-210hp version. It is on the Celica TRD M.
japanese type-r has around 210hp :D

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by pj808
lets see..240hp/2.0ltr=120p/ltr
1.8ltr*120hp/ltr=216hp which I think could be reached with I/E and a 9,000 rev range. Most folks with I/E are seeing around 200hp at the flywheel. I don't think the Honda motor has as much tuning potential as does the Toyota. But at any rate, it is good to see Toyota getting some praises on their engineering ability.
pj
Ever seen the S2000 engine with I/H/E and a flywheel? What you do for one engine, you would have to do for the other. Why not have one engine fully race prepped and the other stock for consumers?

[Chui]

254 bhp for the '02 Euro/Japan S2000. Expect cam phasing on all Honda I-4 engines by '05. The F20C should be very interesting with it.

[pj808]

so yakk..why not increase displacement of the 2ZZ then?? Since hp/ltr. seens to be the only way to measure an engines ability around here, i thought i'd put up some numbers..I highly doubt even you think that I/H/E is a race prepped motor..not even cranking 9k rpms or a small increase in cr would be considered "race prepped" imo. slightly massaged maybe.
but any way, the F20C seems to be a nice motor, but I think even you have said in the past that the tuning level of the present motor is limited. And it is nice to see Honda is finally catching up with Toyota on the twin cam phasing. That is what you mean, right Chui..kinda like dual VVT-i? :-) jp
I knew I'd get a response from both of ya.
btw-whichever one of you went to Southern, thanks for the advice..i'm going there now and am liking it a lot. if ya come down this way sometime, lemme know. maybe i can swing lunch or something.
pj

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by pj808

but any way, the F20C seems to be a nice motor, but I think even you have said in the past that the tuning level of the present motor is limited. And it is nice to see Honda is finally catching up with Toyota on the twin cam phasing. That is what you mean, right Chui..kinda like dual VVT-i? :-) jp
pj

Does anyone know for sure that the 2zz is NOT as "limited" as you say the F20C is? I haven't seen any conclusive proof anywhere that shows the 2zz has more tuning potential than the F20. It definitely isn't in the same league with the F20 in stock form. When it comes to putting down n/a hp, despite VVT-i, its Toyota that has some catching up to do.

[SlasherX]

1.8 that revs to 7800rpms vs. a 2.0 that revs past 9k

am i the onyl one seeing the flaws in this comparision?

[Patches]

MY '01 gt-s revs to 8300, not 7800, And it's to my understanding that our engines can hit 85-8800 without blowing(problems of some sort) .
I do admit that the s2k engine is a killer though, I would love to have it. And right now we are limited in what we can do to our engines, crank pulley, intake, flywheel, porting... am I missing anything?

[lafaygts]

Dont forget to mension the f20c has a free breathing intake and exhaust stock. The 2zz has the butterfly valve and a very restrictive exhaust. The motors are designed to be in 2 totaly different classes of cars too (sport compact and 2 seat roadster). Isnt the f20c fully ballanced and built by hand?

[spwolf]

and more important - isnt s2k MSRP 33k? ;-)

it better be nicer for that much more money, although it aint that much nicer than MR2 - definetly not $8,5k nicer

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


Does anyone know for sure that the 2zz is NOT as "limited" as you say the F20C is? I haven't seen any conclusive proof anywhere that shows the 2zz has more tuning potential than the F20. It definitely isn't in the same league with the F20 in stock form. When it comes to putting down n/a hp, despite VVT-i, its Toyota that has some catching up to do.
Agreed. It's the end result that matters. How you get there is only part of the story. You use the technology you need to meet the objectives you have for the design. Honda can get 120+ HP/L out of an engine with a simple two stage cam timing system. Toyota uses a much more advanced system to get just over 100 HP/L. Does that mean the Toyota engine is better because it uses a more complex system?

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by lafaygts
Dont forget to mension the f20c has a free breathing intake and exhaust stock. The 2zz has the butterfly valve and a very restrictive exhaust. The motors are designed to be in 2 totaly different classes of cars too (sport compact and 2 seat roadster). Isnt the f20c fully ballanced and built by hand?
The butterfly valve opens at high rpm, and doesn't affect performance measurably. We saw that when the Celica first came out. Also, the Celica exhaust is not as restrictive as you think. Most people only see a few HP increase after adding a street legal exhaust. The S2000 exhaust is just as quiet in stock form.

[djm221]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf

Toyota uses a much more advanced system to get just over 100 HP/L. Does that mean the Toyota engine is better because it uses a more complex system?

Eh, I think they use VVT-i to get better low end torque with better fuel economy and emissions, and the engine achieves that.

I get to drive my dad's new S2000 tomorrow, can't wait!! I'll see what all this friggin hype is about :D

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by djm221


Eh, I think they use VVT-i to get better low end torque with better fuel economy and emissions, and the engine achieves that.



I agree that these were Toyota's goals with VVTi. However, I haven't seen any dynos that show that Toyota's engines with VVTi have significantly better low end torque than similar engines without VVTi. Also, it's not like Honda's cars which lack a VVTi-like system are gas-guzzling gross polluters. I guess if I worked for the EPA, Toyota's use so far of VVTi would be more impressive to me.

Originally posted by lafaygts
Dont forget to mension the f20c has a free breathing intake and exhaust stock. The 2zz has the butterfly valve and a very restrictive exhaust.

I've seen many dynoes (including my own) that show that removing the butterfly valve doesn't do very much at all to increase hp in the GT-S. Also, S2000's and GT-S's gain about the same hp with an aftermarket exhaust (about 5-7 peak hp).

[djm221]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


I agree that these were Toyota's goals with VVTi. However, I haven't seen any dynos that show that Toyota's engines with VVTi have significantly better low end torque than similar engines without VVTi. Also, it's not like Honda's cars which lack a VVTi-like system are gas-guzzling gross polluters. I guess if I worked for the EPA, VVTi would be more impressive to me. But as a performance enthusiast, VVTi doesn't do much for me.
Well, I think it's only like a 5% gain for torque. And the response and fuel efficiency/emission isn't very substantial either. But ever little bit helps. But for crazy mad performance, it appears to hinder. Theoretically, it should help that too if one could tune it to their desires. Someday.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by djm221

Well, I think it's only like a 5% gain for torque. And the response and fuel efficiency/emission isn't very substantial either. But ever little bit helps. But for crazy mad performance, it appears to hinder. Theoretically, it should help that too if one could tune it to their desires. Someday.

Cam-phasing technology (VVTi) has the potential for great things in the future. But as of right now, Toyota just hasn't done anything impressive with it, except for maybe the Altezza engine that isn't even available in the US.

[Chui]

Originally posted by pj808
so yakk..why not increase displacement of the 2ZZ then?? Since hp/ltr. seens to be the only way to measure an engines ability around here, i thought i'd put up some numbers..I highly doubt even you think that I/H/E is a race prepped motor..not even cranking 9k rpms or a small increase in cr would be considered "race prepped" imo. slightly massaged maybe.
but any way, the F20C seems to be a nice motor, but I think even you have said in the past that the tuning level of the present motor is limited. And it is nice to see Honda is finally catching up with Toyota on the twin cam phasing. That is what you mean, right Chui..kinda like dual VVT-i? :-) jp
I knew I'd get a response from both of ya.
btw-whichever one of you went to Southern, thanks for the advice..i'm going there now and am liking it a lot. if ya come down this way sometime, lemme know. maybe i can swing lunch or something.
pj

That would be me, pj808. What is your major? I was Mechanical Engineering. E-mail me.

[Chui]

Actually cam phasing both intake and exhaust is the way to go. Check out what BMW has done with the M3 powerplant: 80 lb-ft of torque per liter compared with "only" 77 lb-ft per liter with the S2000's F20C. The M3 also boasts the highest bmep for any naturally aspirated engine in the world:

S2000 bmep =189 psi
Toyota GT-S bmep =183 psi
BMW M3 bmep = 200 psi
McLaren F1 [BMW powered] bmep = 195.5 psi
360 Modena bmep = 190 psi
Porsche 996 GT3 bmep = 188 psi
Lamborghini Murcielago bmep = 191 psi
JDM RS-X Type R bmep = 188 psi
DC2 Integra Type R bmep = 180 psi


Based upon this analysis I'd say that BMW, Honda and Ferrari are "leading the way" for combustion and volumetric efficiency for naturally aspirated engines.

BTW, bmep stands for "brake mean effective pressure" which is the sum of the pressure the face of the piston experiences during a WOT run. When the piston is inhaling air the face of the piston [fop] experiences a slight vacuum, during compression it also sees a net increase in pressure. During the expansion it experiences a tremendous amount of pressure and it experiences a slight positive pressure upon evacuation. Some might get a slight vacuum here. BMEP strongly correlates with TORQUE. In fact, it's a measure of torque. BTW, the dyno registers Brake TORQUE and we calculate BRAKE HP, bhp.

[spwolf]

btw, whats up with all these honda guys hoggin the celica forums? u would think forums are called newcrx or somethin ;-)

[BRAK]

WOOOOOO go toyota............ by the way hello fellow honda owners:wave:

[GTS LAID]

Originally posted by Chui
Actually cam phasing both intake and exhaust is the way to go. Check out what BMW has done with the M3 powerplant: 80 lb-ft of torque per liter compared with "only" 77 lb-ft per liter with the S2000's F20C. The M3 also boasts the highest bmep for any naturally aspirated engine in the world:

S2000 bmep =189 psi
Toyota GT-S bmep =183 psi
BMW M3 bmep = 200 psi
McLaren F1 [BMW powered] bmep = 195.5 psi
360 Modena bmep = 190 psi
Porsche 996 GT3 bmep = 188 psi
Lamborghini Murcielago bmep = 191 psi
JDM RS-X Type R bmep = 188 psi
DC2 Integra Type R bmep = 180 psi


Based upon this analysis I'd say that BMW, Honda and Ferrari are "leading the way" for combustion and volumetric efficiency for naturally aspirated engines.

BTW, bmep stands for "brake mean effective pressure" which is the sum of the pressure the face of the piston experiences during a WOT run. When the piston is inhaling air the face of the piston [fop] experiences a slight vacuum, during compression it also sees a net increase in pressure. During the expansion it experiences a tremendous amount of pressure and it experiences a slight positive pressure upon evacuation. Some might get a slight vacuum here. BMEP strongly correlates with TORQUE. In fact, it's a measure of torque. BTW, the dyno registers Brake TORQUE and we calculate BRAKE HP, bhp.

I think this post right here is testament to the awesome engineering of these engines... to put the 2zz in a list where it is not only the most mass produced but also the cheapest.

mad props to toyota and honda for keeping up with the big dogs for half the cost (one tenth the cost in some cases)

[Chui]

GTSLAID, unfortunately, few persons seem to fully understand why I drive what I do. You summed it up beautifully.

[t2000gts]

hey Chui, how would the BEAMS 3S-GE (dual VVT-i) in the 2.0L Altezza in Japan fare on that list? it's the only toyota engine with it on both cams.

Agreed. It's the end result that matters. How you get there is only part of the story. You use the technology you need to meet the objectives you have for the design. Honda can get 120+ HP/L out of an engine with a simple two stage cam timing system. Toyota uses a much more advanced system to get just over 100 HP/L. Does that mean the Toyota engine is better because it uses a more complex system?

keywords being 'objectives'. if Honda wanted, they could make more than 120hp/L, and Toyota could too. they can make over 100hp/L with just VVT-i and not VVTL-i on a production motor (that Altezza engine in Japan).

But, companies are not out to build their racing reps on sport compact cars :) maybe make some money, sure, but if we want to see Honda and Toyota really dueling it out in terms of engines, some of the racing series would be a better idea. especially some high profile ones like F1 now that Toyota's in it too.

i just wish racing wasn't so secretive and they'd tell us all the details of those motors :D

[Chui]

"hey Chui, how would the BEAMS 3S-GE (dual VVT-i) in the 2.0L Altezza in Japan fare on that list? it's the only toyota engine with it on both cams."

What are the displacements and what are the max torque numbers? I can calculate it pretty easily.

Here are some relevant formulae:

HP = PLAN/33,000
P = mep [psi]
L = length of stroke [feet]
A = bore [inches square]
N = # of power strokes per minute. [divide by 2] Or look at it as "divide by how many engine rotations to get all cylinders to fire."

BMEP = (150.8 * Torque)/Displacement
Torque = [(BMEP * displ)/Pi *4 *12]
Mean Piston Speed = 2 * Engine Speed * Stroke

Conversions...

cm^3 to in^3 divide by 16.387
Stroke in mm to stroke in inches divide by 304.8