Piper cams + Greddy SC

[MyCelicaYouNV]

The Piper cams MWR offers up...are they for N/A setups?

I just bought a datalogit and i may go ahead and buy some cams to install and tune with the datalogit.

Opinions?

Or would i just be wasting mula?

I'm really looking for 250whp!

[VladsGTS]

Be the guineu pig :) (however you spell it) im sure you will get some gains out of it

[040 GTS]

^guinea..close (kid has three).

[Celicahzn]

go stage 3 cams

[jlitman]

The Piper cams MWR offers up...are they for N/A setups?

I just bought a datalogit and i may go ahead and buy some cams to install and tune with the datalogit.

Opinions?

Or would i just be wasting mula?

I'm really looking for 250whp!

Cheaper and safer to up the boost, retune, and re-consider W/I ;)

[Jesse IL]

For the most part, superchargers would use the same cams as N/A. Turbo is different because you've now put a big restriction in the exhaust and taken away all the exhaust tuning.

[GTsRasta]

For the most part, superchargers would use the same cams as N/A. Turbo is different because you've now put a big restriction in the exhaust and taken away all the exhaust tuning.

So they would further enhance the NA characteristics that the s/c amiplify, right? Boosted 2.0 once said that it would be good for the charger.

Anyway, there are dynos in elisetalk that show that power is lost in the higher rpms:

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30118

Unless they're newer version gives good power all throughout the powerband...$1,000+ on cams & tuning wouldn't be worth 5-10 hp after spending less than $4,000 for 60+ hp. Another member has Kelford cams, see how his dynographs look & compare.

[Jesse IL]

The rule of thumb is that a supercharged engine will behave like an amplified N/A engine.

[MyCelicaYouNV]

with that being said...

The cost of the cams, 1000+ with install...plus tuning...300-500

Will the gain be worth it...tuning with the datalogit?

or will it be minimal and not worth it?

[mr johnson]

i'd love to see you do it but personally for me i wouldn't do it. i didn't chose the greddy SC for 300hp. i chose it based on cost, driveability, simplicity, durability, and easy upkeep.

but adding a smaller pulley, water injection, and camshafts it's getting the cost up there. the return is still less than a stage one turbo kit but with equal money invested (while tiring the hell out of the supercharger via running it ragged). yeah, you can be top dog in the celi supercharged world but you're still at the bottom of the totem pole for turboed celis...

[MyCelicaYouNV]

yeah im def not going with water injection, ever.

Just looking at my options...i tried asking about nitrous but everyone said its pretty much impossible...so i thought about a smaller pully and a good tune...no water injection...but i was told it was unsafe and unreliable....hard to tune.

So now im thinking cams, they make good n/a numbers compared to stock....so they should make even better numbers with the charger...

I coulda gotten a turbo kit...but i bought the greddy for the same reason as you...drivability..maintence free ect ect ect..

I really wanted to see 250whp out of the charger and im slightly disappointed.

I may go with the cams if i get some decent backing.

[Jesse IL]

Keep in mind that 250 whp requires more airflow than 230. On an N/A engine, the bigger cams simply make the engine more efficient, allowing it to make more power. On a F/I engine, you're assuming that your blower can supply that amount of air. You may have to spin the thing faster (smaller pulley) just to get the same boost and make 250 whp.

[MyCelicaYouNV]

Keep in mind that 250 whp requires more airflow than 230. On an N/A engine, the bigger cams simply make the engine more efficient, allowing it to make more power. On a F/I engine, you're assuming that your blower can supply that amount of air. You may have to spin the thing faster (smaller pulley) just to get the same boost and make 250 whp.


I see, makes since to me.

I guess it comes down to what jordan said...

Up the boost and reconsider w/i...

Jordan how much did your w/i setup cost? maybe i can duplicate it if you want to help... I wanna learn about it too, i read most of that w/i thread you started...

i can get a custom 11lb pully and go with w/i and get it tuned down at xat.

[many]

Anyway, there are dynos in elisetalk that show that power is lost in the higher rpms:

On that Dyno they lost power up top (but I don't think they had a standalone if I remember correctly) so the tune wasn't at it's optimum.... or/maybe the cams have less overlap then the stock ones ....which might be a good thing going FI.

[Barbarian]

I think it's not worth the money to get cams..... the gains are minimal.... w/i would be a better option... I'm reading up on w/i and planning to get it soon..... :)

[Jesse IL]

Keep in mind that 250 whp requires more airflow than 230. On an N/A engine, the bigger cams simply make the engine more efficient, allowing it to make more power. On a F/I engine, you're assuming that your blower can supply that amount of air. You may have to spin the thing faster (smaller pulley) just to get the same boost and make 250 whp.


I see, makes since to me.

I guess it comes down to what jordan said...

Up the boost and reconsider w/i...

Jordan how much did your w/i setup cost? maybe i can duplicate it if you want to help... I wanna learn about it too, i read most of that w/i thread you started...

i can get a custom 11lb pully and go with w/i and get it tuned down at xat.

To go further with this:

A turbo will operate at a certain pressure ratio, set by the boost controller. As you make more power, there is more exhaust energy hitting the turbine, which will move more air through the compressor. However, the pressure ratio can stay the same since the higher power engine is eating up the extra air the turbo is making.

With a supercharger, the amount of power available and the amount of air it flows is only dependant on the blower itself and the speed at which it spins. Saying that there is a "9 psi" or "11 psi" pulley is somewhat incorrect. It would be more correct to say what mass of air is moved at a given rpm. Every engine has certain flow characteristics, so if you take one pulley and you make 9 psi on a 2ZZ, it may not make 9 psi on a K20. Likewise, if you change the flow charachteristics of your engine say through headwork or came, you may find that you somehow no longer make 9 psi, even though you may make the same power. At this point, you would have to switch to a smaller pulley (or larger supercharger) to get back to 9 psi and achieve the power that your cams/headwork unlocked.

[jlitman]

yeah im def not going with water injection, ever.

Just looking at my options...i tried asking about nitrous but everyone said its pretty much impossible...so i thought about a smaller pully and a good tune...no water injection...but i was told it was unsafe and unreliable....hard to tune.

So now im thinking cams, they make good n/a numbers compared to stock....so they should make even better numbers with the charger...

I coulda gotten a turbo kit...but i bought the greddy for the same reason as you...drivability..maintence free ect ect ect..

I really wanted to see 250whp out of the charger and im slightly disappointed.

I may go with the cams if i get some decent backing.

It's not that hard to tune -- the trick is you need a progressive controller and a consistent mix of water and methanol.

There's at least three progressive controllers on the market right now -- the one I have was built by cooling mist, and it can even be controlled with a laptop and software (though you can also use pre-set programs adjusted with two tuning knobs).

The only problem I've had is that the ECU doesn't like to see so much methanol in the mix -- I have to run a 25 M -75 W solution. But really, the main purpose is to supress detonation, and water will do that better without adding methanol (more methanol does make a little more power, though). Anyway, you will easily be able to run much more methanol than I do if you wish, because you have the PFC.

For the SC, I'd also highly recommend a direct port set up with a check valve on each injector. You can piece together a kit or just do what I did, and purchase the whole shebang from enginerunnup.

For a direct port set up, the IM and S/C will have to be removed and reinstalled, so that will cost whatever the labor was for that. The rest is the cost to tap the manifold, bolt down the tank and pump, and run tubing to each. Tuning is always needed whenever you change anything, so that's par for the course.

I'd say, the kit, plus installation and tuning shouldn't cost more than a grand all together -- considerably less than the cost of cams, labor to install, and tuning.

Moreover, even if you do all of that, you really still should have some sort of a cooling system set up, especially since you live in FL.

[MyCelicaYouNV]

geez man...i dont wanna spend anymore on the car...for such minimal gains

think im done!

time to pay her off and finance a new project.


ON a much worse note...i just got beat by a 350z...that LOOKED stock. wtf?

anyway thanks for the tips and knowledge...