SCC drives Turbo Matrix from LA - Houston,Tx

[Cronos]

I don't know if this is old news or not, didn't see any threads about it.

Latest SCC has a how to turbo 2ZZ-GE section that covers the install and what's needed from beginning to end.

234hp and 168LB-FT to the wheels.

They drove it 2400 miles without a single problem. They said it ran flawlessly even under boost most of the trip.

Even though they're only running 7psi, that still says a lot for the 2ZZ durability under properly tuned boost running it's stock 11.5:1 compression.

[Keyshawn]

They broke a piston on that Matrix shortly after that article was printed.

[Cronos]

No sh*t??? I didn't know that. Well, that pissed on my durability parade. LOL

[bagodoosh]

2400 miles for a car that's supposed to last 240,000 miles? you're talking 1% of its life. i dont see how that'd prove reliability.

[TRD StreetRacing]

Originally posted by bagodoosh
2400 miles for a car that's supposed to last 240,000 miles? you're talking 1% of its life. i dont see how that'd prove reliability.

can u say SC;)

[icyhotgts]

A piston problem is usually related to a tuning problem (detonation).

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by icyhotgts
A piston problem is usually related to a tuning problem (detonation).

Then the question is: Is there anyone who can get a car with an 11.5:1 compression ratio to NOT detonate with forced induction. XS Engineering and Vishnu Performance couldn't do it. Blitz may have the answer, but it looks like that answer involves altering fuel maps and ignition timing (and possibly even cam timing) to the point where they only make 240 hp at the flywheel (even in their Japanese-spec supercharger). 240 hp to the flywheel means only about 204 hp to the wheels, which may be all we can get RELIABLY without switching to low compression pistons.

[yakkosmurf]

Very good datapoints. Reliability was going to be the big question with turbocharging the 2ZZ. It seems it's not as easy as many were hoping. A SC will provide the same problems as the turbo. If 7 psi was too much, they might want to look at 5 or 6. Detonation will tear an engine up. Even with tuning, not working well with 7 psi is not promising. I agree with Keyshawn that you should look into lower compression pistons.

I'd really like to know what they did to tune the car. How far did they go? I'm guessing no changes to cam or ignition timing since VVTL-i lets the ECU take care of the cams, and there's no distributor to play with and adjust the ignition timing. Does tuning just mean a S-AFC?

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf
I'd really like to know what they did to tune the car. How far did they go? I'm guessing no changes to cam or ignition timing since VVTL-i lets the ECU take care of the cams, and there's no distributor to play with and adjust the ignition timing. Does tuning just mean a S-AFC?

They replaced the stock ECU with a TEC-II engine management system and made all kinds of changes to the fuel system.

[yakkosmurf]

Thanks for the info. Does the TEC-II management system just change fuel maps and ignition timing, or is it capable of manipulating VVTL-i to get different cam timing as well?

[Cronos]

They didn't replace the stock ECU with the TEC II, they added the TECH II to handle the ignition and fuel duties. The stock ECU still controls timing, lift, idle and some other little things they didn't mention in the article.

[yakkosmurf]

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't familiar with what that piece did exactly. If they weren't able to mess with cam timing, then there may be some room for more tuning to make 7 psi doable. This is one of the downsides I always saw to VVTL-i and i-VTEC. The computer control is great in street applications for consumers and light modders. But when you want to do some serious tuning it just makes it complicated and limiting. This could be reversed by software/hardware packages that would allow the tuner to control the system completely. This would let the computer be a helper and not a hinderance. Until then, I fear running a descent amount of boost at a CR of 11.5:1 may not be reliable, limiting the performance prospects for the Celica.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Cronos
They didn't replace the stock ECU with the TEC II, they added the TECH II to handle the ignition and fuel duties. The stock ECU still controls timing, lift, idle and some other little things they didn't mention in the article.

Good call. The TEC II is usually used to replace the ECU, but in this case, their using both. Probably because of VVTLi.

[Cronos]

Supposedly the TEC III system will be able to control timing and possibly lift, it wasn't available when they built the car. The article said that the TEC III system had some technology that was only available to OEM's that allows them to control lift and timing.

Does anyone know anything more about the TEC III system?

[YOshi31]

how about let go all allmotor!!! yeah! j/p but if its that much of a problem with FI then just go NA like i think iam

[Cronos]

From the day I bought the car, actually before I got it, all my common logic told me, conisdering the complicated ECU and high compression, that the 2ZZ was best suited to be an N/A monster.

I never planned to go FI with my car, I think it has more untapped n/a power that we just haven't discovered yet. I'm just interested on how FI is being done and the problems they run into along the way. Problems that are pretty easy to predict with this high strung engine.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Cronos
I think it has more untapped n/a power that we just haven't discovered yet.
I'd sure like to know where they're hiding it. No one seems to have found it yet...

[Cronos]

No kidding right??? LOL I think some cams and upgraded valve train components will reveal some of that untapped power. Not to mention a true ECU upgrade, especially required with cams.

[yakkosmurf]

However, I wonder if the high level of computer control inherent to the VVTL-i system will keep the average tuner from finding anymore power. Currently having to make ECU changes just to simply change cam timing seems cumbersome. Even when the hardware/software is worked out, it's still going to be expensive. At least more so than a set of cam gears and a few runs on the dyno. Just a thought.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Cronos
I think some cams and upgraded valve train components will reveal some of that untapped power. Not to mention a true ECU upgrade, especially required with cams.
That's what I meant by no one finding it yet...

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Cronos
No kidding right??? LOL I think some cams and upgraded valve train components will reveal some of that untapped power. Not to mention a true ECU upgrade, especially required with cams.

Here are a few difficulties we are experiencing with going n/a:

1. The 2zz's design dictates that aftermarket cams will be extremely difficult and extremely expensive to make.

2. The same ECU complexities that plague people trying to turbocharge the 2zz also makes it difficult for people trying to gain more n/a power from it.

3. There ain't a long line of companies willing to help us solve these problems by developing either cams and/or ECU upgrades for us.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Cronos
Supposedly the TEC III system will be able to control timing and possibly lift, it wasn't available when they built the car. The article said that the TEC III system had some technology that was only available to OEM's that allows them to control lift and timing.

Does anyone know anything more about the TEC III system?

Check out: http://getfuelinjected.com/products/tec3.html

[Cronos]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


Check out: http://getfuelinjected.com/products/tec3.html

Thanks for the info troublemaker. :thumbup:

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Cronos


Thanks for the info troublemaker. :thumbup:

No problem.

[EuGeNiLe GTS]

ive read the article.. seen the pics.. my god.. so much time, trouble, money.. etc.. to get 230hp.. i sure hope there will be more options for u guys than this.. more easier, more reliable. more cheaper options..

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by EuGeNiLe GTS
ive read the article.. seen the pics.. my god.. so much time, trouble, money.. etc.. to get 230hp.. i sure hope there will be more options for u guys than this.. more easier, more reliable. more cheaper options..

:werd: 11.5 compression is killing us as far as forced induction goes.

[yakkosmurf]

Agreed. Just like everyone said it would from the beginning.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by yakkosmurf
Agreed. Just like everyone said it would from the beginning.

True. But it's one thing to say it. It's another to actually try something for real and see it. Props to SCC for at least giving it a try.