Toyota and VVTL-i...

[iDRIVE]

Is Toyota planning on sticking with vvtl-i? I know that the celica was the test bed for the vvtl-i, im just curious if toyota will incorporate "lift" on any other engine.

Almost all "big" aftermarket company dont wanna exploit the vvtl-i. They probably know something that we dont, maybee toyota is planning on scrapping the "lift".

[Kit99bar]

where have you been?

The Celica engine with VVTL-i is in the Toyota Martrix and Pontiac Vibe now.

[VZV21]

but back to what iDRIVE is saying, only the 2ZZ-GE features VVTL-i, no other engine as of now.

[Kit99bar]

ah I see

my bad :)

[marcus_GTS]

I don't think Toyota has any intention of scrapping VVTL-i. The system provides an engine with great power, great fuel economy and low emissions. Why exactly would they want to get rid of something like that? Sure, the aftermarket suppliers don't like it, but Toyota doesn't build cars for aftermarket suppliers, they build cars for people who drive them.

[yakkosmurf]

I think the aftermarket companies have avoided VVTL-i because fo the higher development and production cost of a controller type unit and the limited number of sales. As you stated, only the one engine uses the technology right now.

I do think VVTL-i has fewer consumer possible (or at least practical) applications than VVT-i does. It will be interested to see the i-VTEC system of the RSX-S will find its way into other Honda engines in the near future. The two systems are very similar from a tunablility perspective. At this point, the VVTL-i controller would have a greater market to sell to, but you never know what companies are going to do.

In the meantime, I don't see Toyota incorporating VVTL-i into the Camry V6, but I don't see them scrapping it either. They probably spend a ton of money developing the 2ZZ engine. They would rather get some money back on it before they unveil the next version of VVTL-i engines. But keep in mind that Toyota made a 20 valve version of the 4A-GE that produced wonderful power results. However, they never sent the engine to the US, and never really put it in a lot of different cars. They also never put the technology in another engine. We'll see.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by VZV21
but back to what iDRIVE is saying, only the 2ZZ-GE features VVTL-i, no other engine as of now.

Good point. I haven't heard of any plans to use VVTLi in any other Toyota engines other than the 2zz.

[Griffin]

Yeah they did - the 20 valve 4A-GE supposedly made like 175 HP stock... thats not bad for a 1.6 liter engine - it was well over the 100 HP / liter mark.

But anyways the aftermarket doesn't make stuff for teh 2ZZ because of 2 things:

1 - the complexity of the system makes it a pain in the butt. A couple people tried making custom ECMs when it first came out - I was hearing stories of 3 to 4 months of blowing engines, tuning & R&D just to get back to stock levels of performance.

2 - Cost vs reward - there just arent that many 2ZZ's out there - the odds of selling enough product to justify the pain in the butt and expense of R&D are just not high enough...

Griffin

[ringthree]

I have also heard that cracking both the new chips on the RSX and Celica is much more difficult than last generation. This is something that will hold us both back.

[VZV21]

But the 4A-GE 20Valve did not have lift control. It was a 2-stage hydraulic intake cam phaser (VVT), which was the predecessor to VVT-i.

The 2.4L motor in the CR-V has i-VTEC

[Griffin]

Mmm imagine a 5 valve / cylinder VVTLi powered engine with a higher rev limit and a slightly lower kick in (say 5K or 5500)....

Drools.....

Griffin

[nudge1201]

would they still need yamaha's help??? don't they get the naskilen(how ever it's spelled) from a yamaha facility???? or is it even needed if they use lift on another engine??

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by VZV21
But the 4A-GE 20Valve did not have lift control. It was a 2-stage hydraulic intake cam phaser (VVT), which was the predecessor to VVT-i.

I understand how the 20 valve technology works. My point was that it was a great advancement at the time, and it never saw its way into another engine... In that respect, it is currently like VVTL-i. I was comparing the proliferation of the two technologies, not their technical details.

[VZV21]

Are you talking about the 3-intake Valve to 2 exhaust valve design, or the VVT (which I was referring to) system.

[MilinGTS]

nayone watch initial D?

the VVTi system has been in use since the 80's

the 4a-ge racing motors had it and the stock motors had it. its why the 4age motor had such a badass rev limiter

the celica was built to sound just like the 4age powered hachi roku.

take a listen to the two of them rev up someday...that resonator on our stock exhaust tunes the sound to that of the ae86 (imho)

its like the toyota "signature" sound or something.

or maybe im just weird.

[2002GT_Celica]

I think they will stick with the whole Lift thing, like they did with VVT. If they are putting engines with Lift in other cars, the Matrix, Vibe, and Corolla TS (Europe), I doubt they are going to scrap it. In a couple years you may see them implementing Lift into Lexus cars, and maybe some other Toyotas.

[spwolf]

Originally posted by 2002GT_Celica
I think they will stick with the whole Lift thing, like they did with VVT. If they are putting engines with Lift in other cars, the Matrix, Vibe, and Corolla TS (Europe), I doubt they are going to scrap it. In a couple years you may see them implementing Lift into Lexus cars, and maybe some other Toyotas.

yep indeed... they greatly expanded the range since they offer it now with Corrola and Matrix...

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by VZV21
Are you talking about the 3-intake Valve to 2 exhaust valve design, or the VVT (which I was referring to) system.
I was referring to the 3-intake valve to 2-exhaust valve design. Good technology from the 80s that never got put into another engine. We'll see if they do the same with VVTL-i and the 2ZZ.

[Griffin]

Yup - especially with the Guvenment cracking down more and more on the CAFE and emissions standards every year things like VVTi and VVTLi give Toyota a great way to give a car decent power while not getting the ol shaftola on import tariffs. - Plus gotta keep the CAFE low to sell all those big trucks everyone wants :) Plus it lets your car idle silky smooth instead of having the 'ol hot cam rump rump rump. Which I like - but then again I'm weird.

Griffin

[Willis5050]

Just a question, when did the aftermarket first crack VTEC (controllers, ECU, etc.)? I have no idea because I couldn't drive, let alone worry about moding a car, back when VTEC engines first hit our shores. Was it right away or did it take a few years? Maybe some of you experienced guys remember....

[iDRIVE]

They put the 2zz-ge on the Vibe, Matrix, and corolla, makes me wonder why they did that. Honda uses different engines(variations) on there cars ie. civic typeR, integra typeR. Honda dont put the same engine on two different platform, theres always a variations.

Why didnt toyota made another engine with lift, detuned 2zz-ge, lower compression, same hp as the 1zz-fe and stick it on GT, corrolla, and matrix? It seems odd that with all the line up of Toyota engines only one have "lift".

I highly doubt that theyll put "lift" on Lexus. Lexus is suppose to be smooth and luxurious. I dobt people who buy lexus wants a neck snapping "lift" on their car.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by iDRIVE

I highly doubt that theyll put "lift" on Lexus. Lexus is suppose to be smooth and luxurious. I dobt people who buy lexus wants a neck snapping "lift" on their car.

Agreed.

[spwolf]

Originally posted by iDRIVE
They put the 2zz-ge on the Vibe, Matrix, and corolla, makes me wonder why they did that. Honda uses different engines(variations) on there cars ie. civic typeR, integra typeR. Honda dont put the same engine on two different platform, theres always a variations.

Why didnt toyota made another engine with lift, detuned 2zz-ge, lower compression, same hp as the 1zz-fe and stick it on GT, corrolla, and matrix? It seems odd that with all the line up of Toyota engines only one have "lift".



and why would that be? so we can say that Toyota has more than one engine with the lift? I dont see the point... why would you want de-tuned engines if you were Toyota? other than being able add a turbo easier, for which I am sure Toyota doesnt care as much as you might

It makes more sense to have one same/similar engine, lowers the costs...

[2002GT_Celica]

Well, I was thinking about Lift being in a car like the IS300, which is one of the sportiest in the Lexus lineup, not the higher luxury sedans. And about people not wanting neck snapping speed, look at the IS430, the body of an IS300 with a supercharged V8, now that's neck snapping speed.

[djm221]

I bet Toyota will incorporate the "lift" part into engines like Honda did. Honda doesn't use it just to get that kick in the pants. THey have milder versions for fuel economy and crap. Hopefully, Toyota will do the same with VVTL-i. The L doesn't always have to be a very agressive cam. Most Honda engines with VTEC, you don't really know it's there when you drive it (too many to name). Toyota has the engineering in house, so I expect they will do the same.

I believe it is BMW with the early technology of camlobeless valves that is the future. Continuously variable timing and lift with electronic or magnetic control of the valves, I don't know how they do it since I am not an ME and don't follow that ****. Chui could fill us in on that.

[simphmerj]

Originally posted by iDRIVE
Honda uses different engines(variations) on there cars ie. civic typeR, integra typeR. Honda dont put the same engine on two different platform, theres always a variations.

uhm, are we forgeting the civic ex and del sol si? (d16 126hp)
or perhaps the del sol vtec and 99-00 si? (b16 160 hp)
civic type R/rsx type S (k20c 200hp) ?? oh yeah, the CTR makes 3 less hp
02 civic si/rsx base (k20a 160 hp) ??
cl/tl series, same engines
accord type R (euro) uses H22 just like prelude's did
what hasn't the ZC been in?
honda makes good use of engine sharing

bmw is pioneering the infinitely variable timing and lift called valvetronic, although it still uses a cam. does away w/ the TB though. it was in technobabble couple months ago in SCC.

[t2000gts]

lift is only really practical in sporty engines for sporty cars.

and in keeping with that, the 2ZZ is making it's way around all the lighter sporty cars.

whether they incorporate lift into a bigger engine for a bigger car remains to be seen. but that usually has other problems...i think there would be more stresses on a bigger engine (like a 4.x liter lexus V8) at 7500rpm. they make enough power with just VVT-i.

unless that 4500GT concept or next supra has a n/a V8 making 400 something hp. then it would either have dual VVT-i or VVTL-i or something more than just VVT-i.

[Lift7800]

But VVtl-i isnt the reason companies like greddy or hks aren't making products for our car. Honda VTec and i-vtec are much more swamped with after market products.

[spwolf]

Originally posted by Lift7800
But VVtl-i isnt the reason companies like greddy or hks aren't making products for our car. Honda VTec and i-vtec are much more swamped with after market products.

sure it is.. together with current low volume... thats why Corrola TS and Matrix can only help that... because both will most likely outsell Celica in their areas...I am pretty sure than Corrola TS will in Europe, its like $8k cheeper and hot hatch market is much bigger in Europe than sports coupe market