Tuning ignition timing with emanage ultimate

[jlitman]

I've been loggin ignition timing on my scantool and I notice that ECU seems to always pull a little timing (1-1.5 degrees) within a narrow RPM band. There is no audible knock, nor any evidence of power lost on the dyno :confused:

I've tried pulling out several degrees of timing in that one area on the map -- and it doesn't seem to be making any difference according to my datalogs (no idea if I'm losing power as a result at the moment).

My question is: If the engine is knocking/ECU pulling timing would it show as loss in power on the dyno? Could this be some odd foible of the ECU? I'm going to try and log ignition data from a bone stock GT-S to see what is happening at that RPM range to compare and contrast, but I find this all very confusing.

On a related note, is there any consistent relationship between valve timing and ignition timing?

Thanks :)

[Gravel]

Have you considered wiring up your knock sensor - it looks like the latest versions of the software (v2 and the newer v2.11) support at least knock monitoring.

I have a Knock Link wired into my knock sensor which basically gives me a bar-graph of knock-sensor output. I haven't used it in anger for tuning yet though.

[jlitman]

Have you considered wiring up your knock sensor - it looks like the latest versions of the software (v2 and the newer v2.11) support at least knock monitoring.

I have a Knock Link wired into my knock sensor which basically gives me a bar-graph of knock-sensor output. I haven't used it in anger for tuning yet though.

I thought about it, but I haven't for several reasons. (1) I'm not sure I have the right harness / connections, (2) I'd need some sort of a knock free baseline of a stock Celica, which I don't have, and (3) the v2 software sucks! My datalog function wouldn't work at all with it, so I went back to v1.6, which works great. I'll have to upgrade when I get the vmanage tho', which apparently won't be availble unti lmay now :faint:

Do you have it hooked up? I know you have a scantool -- would you mind logging some data for me on ignition timing? :)

[Black_TRD]

did you reset the ecu?

Try taking out 3 degrees on that range 2 in the cell before and reset the ecu and see if the behavior is still the same.

BTW if your are knocking it sometimes shows on the dyno as spiky curve and yes if the stock ecu is taking out timing you should see some loss in power.

[jlitman]

did you reset the ecu?

Try taking out 3 degrees on that range 2 in the cell before and reset the ecu and see if the behavior is still the same.

BTW if your are knocking it sometimes shows on the dyno as spiky curve and yes if the stock ecu is taking out timing you should see some loss in power.

The small dip in timing seems to coincide with a recent change in VVTi timing -- an area where there had once been substantial overlap (advance) dialed in that has been now dialed out. It seems that the ignition timing needs to be pulled back a bit in that spot as well. :shrugs:

However, the relationship between cam and ignition timing is not clear to me, and it may very well be RPM and load dependent, as the effect of cam overlap on performance seems to be affected by both RPM and load. Any thoughts on that?

Anyway, I think I'm getting closer to dialing it out -- now as RPM goes up in each gear, so does ignition timing. On the dyno, with things tuned as they are, I made more power, and playing with ignition timing seemed to reduce power.

That was why I asked if it was possible to have too much ignition but still make power -- but then again, on the road, there is greater load on the engine, so these little odd dips may not show up on the dyno...

Of course, I'm a little woried I'm dialing out some "dyno power" for the sake of real world stability and safety, but I guess that's a reasonable trade off :shrugs:

I hadn't reset the ECU since the most recent round of tuning begun for two reasons (1) whatever "black box" values the ECU is using are now pretty well incorporated into the tune, so it will potentially affect many things, and other than these small blips I'm logging ,the car is running great, (2) timing changes seem to occur rapidly, both adding and pulling timing, so resetting the ECU may speed up the process, but I don't think it's required.

[boardernr]

what are your AFR's when the problem is occuring? how many psi are you at when it happens? your vvt settings in that area could be inducing the slight knock too, you could try playing with them a bit.

[jlitman]

what are your AFR's when the problem is occuring? how many psi are you at when it happens? your vvt settings in that area could be inducing the slight knock too, you could try playing with them a bit.

AFR's in boost are < 12 and I'm injecting water/meth at 1 psi on, but AFR's are misleading with W/I.

I blame the VVTi settings... but I have one more thing to try first, and it's related to your suggestion regarding amount of boost.

The answer is: I'm not sure, but definitely more than I had been before. After dialing out 5 degrees of timing it suddenly occured to me -- waitaminnit -- this is why I have W/I! Why am I doing this?

So, I think I need to play around with my water injector settings and have it hit maximum spray much earlier. I will test it out tomoroww and see if that solves the problem. If so, I should be able to put back the timing.

If not, I'll try tweaking the VVTi settings, and after that, I'm turing it over to a pro to figure out.

[Gravel]

I thought about it, but I haven't for several reasons. (1) I'm not sure I have the right harness / connections, (2) I'd need some sort of a knock free baseline of a stock Celica, which I don't have, and (3) the v2 software sucks! My datalog function wouldn't work at all with it, so I went back to v1.6, which works great. I'll have to upgrade when I get the vmanage tho', which apparently won't be availble unti lmay now :faint:

Do you have it hooked up? I know you have a scantool -- would you mind logging some data for me on ignition timing? :)

I don't have it hooked up yet - and I don't know how the Knock sensor will respond to having three electrical loads, but I am tempted. The PITA is that I'd probably have to order and take apart a whole 14-pin harness just to get a pair of wires with the correct crimp-terminals on them.

What sort of ignition timing info do you want - I get live data on my scantool, but I generally have my eyes on the road at lift-speeds! ;) Or do you mean ignition timing on my eManage? I would have thought mine's a little conservative for you - my maps are locked, but the tuner said he used -5 degrees in places. Oh, and I am still N/A ofcourse :(

[boardernr]

dont have the meth come in too fast, or you'll start to bog the motor and it'll misfire (ask me how i know :) ). you could try running it about a half point richer too, and see what happens. i would focus on that and mainly the vvt settings (try an in between number from here you orig had it, to what you changed it to, and see what happens) i would honestly try that first, GL! you going to be at that hin show this weekend? if so, i look forward to metting ya. -Nick

[jlitman]

dont have the meth come in too fast, or you'll start to bog the motor and it'll misfire (ask me how i know :) ). you could try running it about a half point richer too, and see what happens. i would focus on that and mainly the vvt settings (try an in between number from here you orig had it, to what you changed it to, and see what happens) i would honestly try that first, GL! you going to be at that hin show this weekend? if so, i look forward to metting ya. -Nick

It's rate of spray is progressive, so this would would just shorten the interval being being partial and full spray. I didn't have it reach full spray until 10+ psi, but maybe setting it to reach full spray at 6 or 8 would be better :shrugs: When it first sprays at 1 (actually, 1.34 psi, according to my datalogger for the kit), it's not spraying the full amount, so it doesn't bog.

I'll log a full runs like that on the road and see what happens. If the ign timing looks to be steadily advancing with RPM (it only does this on hard acceleration from a stop), then I'll try dialing the timing back in.

If that doesn't work, I'll try tuning back the VVTi settings. After that, I'll reset the ECU. After that... um... I dunno. I doubt it's actually hurting the motor. I'm really just trying to haggle with the ECU to not pull a little timing in a certain spot... :shrugs:

I'm not going to HIN, but maybe I'll see ya at the next meet :)

[jlitman]

All right. I've now tried scaling back the vvti settings, resetting the ECU, lowering the psi where the max amount of water is injected, and even tried revving up to 5K in 3rd out of boost. No matter what, the ECU likes to pull a little timing right around 4.5-5K :faint:

I'm beginning to think this is just how the car likes to run in or out of boost.

Grrr.

Going to try two more things, ramping up the spray rate and logging data from a stock AT GT-S to compare and contrast.

If that turns out to be the factory setting, then I'm going to try adding timing to see if it will advance past the ECU's preprogrammed timing with a little fine tuning of the W/I.

Considering the car is running great and showed no power loss on the dyno, I think I may be getting too nitpicky about this... :sadpace:

[boardernr]

yeah, if it feels strong and healthy, let it be. :) i doubt it's knock induced at this point.

[jlitman]

yeah, if it feels strong and healthy, let it be. :) i doubt it's knock induced at this point.

I'm going to try and log data from a stock AT GT-S tomorrow. I was wondering, can you give me an idea of what your ign map looks like -- maybe post a screen shot? I know you have a PFC, so your values are the actual values rather than degrees of adjustment as with the emanage.

For example, I seem to steadily climb to 18.5 degrees according to the scantool, then drop by 1-2 degrees from 4.5K to 5.1K, then it climbs again, and eventually peaks around 22 - 22.5 degrees at 8.3K. This is WOT from first gear. No audible knock, no loss in power, just happily pulls.

I see less of a drop in timing reving up in higher gears, but it always pulls at least 1 degree in that little RPM range. This is both when I retard timing by a whopping 5 degrees or try and advance it by up to 3 degrees (though I haven't tried that yet with different W/I settings). No matter what, I still show 16 - 17 degrees advance in that RPM range. :shrugs:

The fact that I see this happening both in and out of boost, and both with advance and retard dialed in, makes me think it's just what the ECU prefers there...

This is the first time I have ever gotten truly annoyed with the fact the emanage is a piggyback... :mad:

[wts]

An important consideration with a piggy-back and chemical intercooling is the location of the IAT sensor. If its in the stock MAF sensor before the W/M nozzle then the ECU will think the IAT's are higher than they really are and will pull some timing to "compensate".

Its not much of an issue now but in the summer it will be significantly annoying as the ECU will pull timing through a wider load range. Sure, you could compensate by adding it back in with the EMU but thats a temperature dependent tune. Blech!

Best bet is to relocate the IAT post W/M nozzle so the stock ECU always see the true termps.

Dont forget , the EM-U is invisible to the stock ECU and hence, the OBDII scantool.

[jlitman]

An important consideration with a piggy-back and chemical intercooling is the location of the IAT sensor. If its in the stock MAF sensor before the W/M nozzle then the ECU will think the IAT's are higher than they really are and will pull some timing to "compensate".

Its not much of an issue now but in the summer it will be significantly annoying as the ECU will pull timing through a wider load range. Sure, you could compensate by adding it back in with the EMU but thats a temperature dependent tune. Blech!

Best bet is to relocate the IAT post W/M nozzle so the stock ECU always see the true termps.

Dont forget , the EM-U is invisible to the stock ECU and hence, the OBDII scantool.

It's a direct-port system, so the blower, IAT and MAF sensors never come in contact with any methanol or water, so I guess that's possible. But why would it pull it in only one one narrow range? The change in timing also doesn't seem to be temperature dependent -- I see it happening during the day at 90 F and at night around 65 F.

No luck getting data from a stock GT-S today, but hopefully tomorrow. Will be meeting up wit hmy tuner toniight possibly to see if we can coax a little more timing in that RPM region. If not, then I give up.

[wts]

I see it happening during the day at 90 F and at night around 65 F.Yea, it didnt seem all that applicable to your current timing issue and it doesnt seem there's much you can do about it either.

Just another F.I. guy running a drunken piggy...

[jlitman]

I see it happening during the day at 90 F and at night around 65 F.Yea, it didnt seem all that applicable to your current timing issue and it doesnt seem there's much you can do about it either.

Just another F.I. guy running a drunken piggy...

Heh, yep.

On a positive note, I've coaxed the ECU into offering up another degree of advance in the "problem zone" by tuning the W/I to spray at a higher rate (amazingly, no bogging that I've detected) and to reach max spray at a lower psi (probably a good idea anyway), so I think there is more power to be safely had here. I just have to make a compelling argument to the ECU to allow me to make that power :rolleyes:

Holy sh!t, I'm almost like a real tuner now :eek:

[zuoom]

dun know if this would be of any help.

i spoke with a tuner regarding the 2zz and he mentioned that the 2zz has a tendacy to ping at around 4-5k rpm. even if the tune is done correctly.

wonder if it's the reason why the ecu pulls the advance?

[jlitman]

dun know if this would be of any help.

i spoke with a tuner regarding the 2zz and he mentioned that the 2zz has a tendacy to ping at around 4-5k rpm. even if the tune is done correctly.

wonder if it's the reason why the ecu pulls the advance?

That would fit EXACTLY what I am seeing. Quite possibly the 2ZZ just needs to have the timing pulled around there, and either the ECU is seeing a little knock and imediately pulls timing (as in, even with an ECU reset, there is a small dip in the timing at that RPM region on the very first run -- NO LEARNING CURVE!) or Toyota programmed things that way because they discovered this problem when they first built the motor (thus, nothing to learn, the ECU will just always do that).

Hmmm. It will be interesting to see what I find on a stock AT. I'd also like to see what other S/C'd GT-S's are logging for igntion -- t.x., can you log ignition timing?

[jlitman]

What sort of ignition timing info do you want - I get live data on my scantool, but I generally have my eyes on the road at lift-speeds! ;) Or do you mean ignition timing on my eManage? I would have thought mine's a little conservative for you - my maps are locked, but the tuner said he used -5 degrees in places. Oh, and I am still N/A ofcourse :(

Can your scantool record data? Basically one pull in say 4th gear from 3K to redline would be great!

[Gravel]

That would fit EXACTLY what I am seeing. Quite possibly the 2ZZ just needs to have the timing pulled around there, and either the ECU is seeing a little knock and imediately pulls timing (as in, even with an ECU reset, there is a small dip in the timing at that RPM region on the very first run -- NO LEARNING CURVE!) or Toyota programmed things that way because they discovered this problem when they first built the motor (thus, nothing to learn, the ECU will just always do that).

Hmmm. It will be interesting to see what I find on a stock AT. I'd also like to see what other S/C'd GT-S's are logging for igntion -- t.x., can you log ignition timing?

I wonder if this is the actual reason that N/A 2ZZ's have a power and torque dip just before lift kicks in. I'd always assumed it was the low-lift cams running out of puff, but I guess it could just be the ECU pulling timing around the knock-point :shrugs:

Jiltman, I'm not sure that my scantool is that clever - I don't think there's anyway to download data from it - I just wanted something that would read the fuel trims at all!

[jlitman]

That would fit EXACTLY what I am seeing. Quite possibly the 2ZZ just needs to have the timing pulled around there, and either the ECU is seeing a little knock and imediately pulls timing (as in, even with an ECU reset, there is a small dip in the timing at that RPM region on the very first run -- NO LEARNING CURVE!) or Toyota programmed things that way because they discovered this problem when they first built the motor (thus, nothing to learn, the ECU will just always do that).

Hmmm. It will be interesting to see what I find on a stock AT. I'd also like to see what other S/C'd GT-S's are logging for igntion -- t.x., can you log ignition timing?

I wonder if this is the actual reason that N/A 2ZZ's have a power and torque dip just before lift kicks in. I'd always assumed it was the low-lift cams running out of puff, but I guess it could just be the ECU pulling timing around the knock-point :shrugs:

Jiltman, I'm not sure that my scantool is that clever - I don't think there's anyway to download data from it - I just wanted something that would read the fuel trims at all!

So far I've been able to convince the ECU to allow about 1 more degree of timing throughout that rev range -- but it still allows less timing there as compared to right before (3K -4K) and after (5.5K - 8.5K). :shrugs:

No need to download anything... If it can record it and play it back, you only need to take note of a few values -- one at 500 RPM intervals from 3K to 7K. You can do that with pencil and paper :p:

[jlitman]

In conclusion:

Well, after messing around with the tune some more with my buddy and tuner, we have arrived at the conclusion that I am running the maximum timing the ECU will allow. It seems that the little dip in ignition timing is not affecting the torque curve, so it's just a foible of the engine and ECU :shrugs:

I am still very interested in what sort of timing folks run on a 2ZZ at WOT around that area of the map, especially with a stand alone -- anyone care to share? :)