OK Lets see if we can get serious about GTS FI

[baileygts]

Ok, here are the problems I forsee with the GTS:

11.5:1 Compression - Cant handle much boost.
Closed end fuel system - Cant easily change.

What if you just run 5-6psi, that is a big increase, and maybe allow a SAFC to richen your fuel, if you are talking about 8+psi, then it seems it would be a different ballgame. After all, it seems all everyone is wanting is a low boost Turbo, If I am wrong please correct me.

I am looking for other problems and ideas, cuz it is time for us all to get serious about turboing a GTS.

[chrisle7220]

well its not really a problem turbochaging a gt-s, its just that you dont get as much power as the gt does. the gt can easily run 10psi, where as the gt-s can probably only do 5psi. thats due to compression. now if you lower the compression, and stuff like that, you could easily run more boost, maybe 10-20psi. but of course that would cost you a lot more money. and yes when you get low compression pistons, you do lose some hp, but you gain it right back with boost!!!!!!

[SiNisTeR 892]

NO! i will not allow u to get serious about the gt-s FI....


LOL J/k

[snake gts]

not funny!

[CelicaLicious]

the problems with turbocharging the GTS are pretty obvious and already stated.. the CR is too high, and the fuel system is something new and challenging. there are ways around it, but an inexpensive solution has yet to be resolved.. so i'll just wait.. this is an NA car anyways..

[larryd]

Originally posted by chrisle7220
well its not really a problem turbochaging a gt-s, its just that you dont get as much power as the gt does. the gt can easily run 10psi, where as the gt-s can probably only do 5psi. thats due to compression. now if you lower the compression, and stuff like that, you could easily run more boost, maybe 10-20psi. but of course that would cost you a lot more money. and yes when you get low compression pistons, you do lose some hp, but you gain it right back with boost!!!!!!

responses like this crack me up.. i should enforce a new rule that says unless you have a clue what your talkin about then dont post :)

[oldster]

That would sure cut down on the number of posts.....:chuckles:

[baileygts]

Agreed, I just want to see all of the problems we might encounter, and try to overcome each. After all we (I) just want a little boost, not twint sequential turbo's or anything. I just want to do things with motor, not laughin gas.

[larryd]

there are soo many little problems you may encounter you cant really list each and every individual thing.. a good read is the SCC Turbo Matrix article.. thatll give u an idea of what they had to do

[Bravo]

Originally posted by larryd
there are soo many little problems you may encounter you cant really list each and every individual thing.. a good read is the SCC Turbo Matrix article.. thatll give u an idea of what they had to do

Here you go.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/archives/tech/tech01_0702.shtml

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/images/0702/projmatrix_01.jpg

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/images/0702/projmatrix_07.jpg

[larryd]

sweet jesus, that almost brings a tear to my eyes :)

[atehrani]

Note the sharp dip in power once lift kicked in. Reliable low boost cannot be achieved if we don't have a good stand-alone engine management system. It will even help in NA applications.

The fuel system will have to be upgraded to accomidate the increased fuel consumption.

[Xlr8_10]

Originally posted by Bravo


Here you go.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/archives/tech/tech01_0702.shtml

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/images/0702/projmatrix_01.jpg

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/images/0702/projmatrix_07.jpg

oh my.. :eek: :( :ugh: :bowdown:

[Sublime]

Can someone explain something to me.... How did they find $3K in their budget for Rims/Wheels, $2K-$3K for brakes, $2K for the fuel/spark computer, and God knows how much for the XS turbo package, but couldn't spare $100 for a thick copper head gasket to lower the compression to a streetable forced induction level?
They probably had to run that car rich as a pig to keep it from detonating and then they drive it to hot humid florida and blame "cheap gas" for it detontating.
Also with such a big budget operation, why no cam swap? They run 7psi of boost, but leave in a low lift, large overlap cam designed for max NA performance?
They had good intentions, turbo a 2zz without interal mods, but I think this article does more to scare off wouldbe turbo developers and customers then to entice them.
They had the budget to really put the 2zz on the map, but they dropped the ball IMHO. If they would of been honest to the community to begin with and said, "Toyota/Yamaha did a great job of pushing the factory NA envelop with the 2zz, but if we're going to boost it some changes need to be made."
They left at least 20% of the HP on the table by leaving the stock cams in there and not changing the valve timing.
They crippled themselves with the stock compression ratio. There's no reason they couldn't of hit 350 wheel HP with their budget if it was done right and the engine would probably still be in one piece.

[ceLL-ILL-cA]

adding a turbo to a 2zz-ge is kinda a waste of a good, n/a engine....instead of being all worried about turbo, lets see what we can get this engine to do n/a....its like the type-r...many peeps thinks its a waste to turbo them, becuase its a waste of a totally good n/a engine....turbo is nice...but hitting 13's n/a sounds much better then hitting 13's wit turbo....like the R's do

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Originally posted by ceLL-ILL-cA
adding a turbo to a 2zz-ge is kinda a waste of a good, n/a engine....instead of being all worried about turbo, lets see what we can get this engine to do n/a....its like the type-r...many peeps thinks its a waste to turbo them, becuase its a waste of a totally good n/a engine....turbo is nice...but hitting 13's n/a sounds much better then hitting 13's wit turbo....like the R's do

:werd:

[Pitlab77]

Originally posted by Sublime
Can someone explain something to me.... How did they find $3K in their budget for Rims/Wheels, $2K-$3K for brakes, $2K for the fuel/spark computer, and God knows how much for the XS turbo package, but couldn't spare $100 for a thick copper head gasket to lower the compression to a streetable forced induction level?
They probably had to run that car rich as a pig to keep it from detonating and then they drive it to hot humid florida and blame "cheap gas" for it detontating.
Also with such a big budget operation, why no cam swap? They run 7psi of boost, but leave in a low lift, large overlap cam designed for max NA performance?
They had good intentions, turbo a 2zz without interal mods, but I think this article does more to scare off wouldbe turbo developers and customers then to entice them.
They had the budget to really put the 2zz on the map, but they dropped the ball IMHO. If they would of been honest to the community to begin with and said, "Toyota/Yamaha did a great job of pushing the factory NA envelop with the 2zz, but if we're going to boost it some changes need to be made."
They left at least 20% of the HP on the table by leaving the stock cams in there and not changing the valve timing.
They crippled themselves with the stock compression ratio. There's no reason they couldn't of hit 350 wheel HP with their budget if it was done right and the engine would probably still be in one piece.
lowering compression buy using a thicker head gasket is the worst way to lower compression. You are chaning the squench area inside the clylinder

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Originally posted by Pitlab77

lowering compression buy using a thicker head gasket is the worst way to lower compression. You are chaning the squench area inside the clylinder

:werd: go out and get some lower comp pistons... if your gona do it, do it right. You dont have any second chances.

[Spec GTS]

Originally posted by ceLL-ILL-cA
adding a turbo to a 2zz-ge is kinda a waste of a good, n/a engine....instead of being all worried about turbo, lets see what we can get this engine to do n/a....its like the type-r...many peeps thinks its a waste to turbo them, becuase its a waste of a totally good n/a engine....turbo is nice...but hitting 13's n/a sounds much better then hitting 13's wit turbo....like the R's do

THANK YOU!

[chrisle7220]

so for all those future owners of a celica, if you want to buy a car and turbocharge it, then think twice about getting the gt-s. its a great and fast car for a daily driver, but if your a hardcore motha, then go for the gt. you save a lot of money when you buy it, and when you turbo it, you dont have to do any major internal mods. and you can run more boost!!!!!!

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Originally posted by Spec GTS


THANK YOU!

:werd:

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

The GTS would make a hardcore NA car. Thats the a type-r killer.

[RUSHIIII]

Ok for last time this is the low down on Turboing a GTS. You are taking an Extreme NA motor that was based on lift, Technology, was merchandised to be a great "out of the box" performance car and trying to make it a fast a$$ turboed mini Supra. This is the reason why its gonna cost you a sh!t load to do it right. I get tired of hearing ppl cry adn whine when a kit comes out and then the price is around 5K+. Taking into account everything that it takes to make this possible. Just look at the EIP Celica, I garrantee you to get your car like that it will cost you around 7K. Now before anyone cries about the price remember you get what you pay for. They took 2ZZ and rebuilt it from the ground up to handle the boost and as you can see the results were tremendous. If you can get good traction thats an easy low 12 second car. Then you have to overcome the tranny work, you'll need more than a Clutch and LSD for this. Not sure if a Lightened Flywheel would be good or not, I've had a friend break 2 of these on her GST running 28 PSI. Having the tranny cryo treated might be one solution that might help, also I'm looking at specs of the Supra tranny to get any design ideas that might help us with this problem as well. So now we're up to around 9K with all the work but the end result is something to behold and really get some attention. Next time you get someone makin cracks at you about "It looks Fast" you take that 320hp Celica and hand them their a$$ and just see the look on their faces at the same time. Yeah there other cars out there that are faster and have more potential but like I told my friends, one its a challenge to me. I'm working on doing something that only a few have pulled off so far and even then they dont even take their cars to the track. Also Supras are nice but theyre overdone, everybody has done every mod humanly possible with this car, dont get me wrong I love Supras too. So there it is if wanna do something original and turn heads thats the deal. Thank you have a nice day........

Laters
Chris

[Sublime]

Originally posted by Pitlab77

lowering compression buy using a thicker head gasket is the worst way to lower compression. You are chaning the squench area inside the clylinder

I realize this, but in my rant $100 for a copper gasket didn't sound as good as "only" $800 for FI pistons that are ceramic coated and between 8:1 and 9:1 :)
Plus even the copper gasket would of been a better way to go then what they did.
But they did have the cash to do it right and could of afforded pistons as they could of ditched the TECII and replaced it with a SAFC and a wider band/larger MAF as the fuel curve for a low compression turbo is alot more forgiving. They could of also thrown in oil squirters just to be safe and still been under what they spent on their now useless hunk of aluminum.

[Pitlab77]

Originally posted by Sublime


I realize this, but in my rant $100 for a copper gasket didn't sound as good as "only" $800 for FI pistons that are ceramic coated and between 8:1 and 9:1 :)
Plus even the copper gasket would of been a better way to go then what they did.
But they did have the cash to do it right and could of afforded pistons as they could of ditched the TECII and replaced it with a SAFC and a wider band/larger MAF as the fuel curve for a low compression turbo is alot more forgiving. They could of also thrown in oil squirters just to be safe and still been under what they spent on their now useless hunk of aluminum.

high compression is not the problem. I rather have the TECII than low compression pistons. Miatas with stock internal run 11's due to good tunning with tec units. My friends have run 11's with stock ls motors (block guard only) in civic HB's with engine managment. Yes I realize that the compression on these motors is lower but, the higher the compression the lower you margin of error so a good ECU is needed

You dont want alphabet soup hacks with you cars cpr

[Sublime]

Last time I checked miata's have 9:1 or 10:1 CRs, the breathing room you have for FI with 9:1 vs 11.5:1 is rediculous. With 9:1 CR you could safely run about 10-14psi with a NA A/F ratio and full timing. A stock ECU can handle this (with a little help). When you're talking 11.5:1 CR and trying to run 7psi you've got to deal with a extra problems you didn't have to at 9:1. First is the added boost dependant fueling, you'd have to do this anyway. However with 11.5:1 you need to add even more fuel and get the car running richer to cool the charge and cool down the combustion. A stock NA ECU doesn't like running at 10-11:1 AFR. Second you have to pull timing based on boost. So with 11.5:1 CR you definitely need a fully programible ECU to keep it in one piece. With an 9:1 its optional, I'm not saying I wouldn't perfer it and that it wouldn't be optimal solution, but its not nessasary.

My point of the original rant was why lower compression pistons weren't used when so much other money was used on brakes, wheels, and tires. You can't tell me you think the car runs better with 11.5:1 pistons and the stock cam with FI.

[Pitlab77]

Originally posted by Sublime
Last time I checked miata's have 9:1 or 10:1 CRs, the breathing room you have for FI with 9:1 vs 11.5:1 is rediculous. With 9:1 CR you could safely run about 10-14psi with a NA A/F ratio and full timing. A stock ECU can handle this (with a little help). When you're talking 11.5:1 CR and trying to run 7psi you've got to deal with a extra problems you didn't have to at 9:1. First is the added boost dependant fueling, you'd have to do this anyway. However with 11.5:1 you need to add even more fuel and get the car running richer to cool the charge and cool down the combustion. A stock NA ECU doesn't like running at 10-11:1 AFR. Second you have to pull timing based on boost. So with 11.5:1 CR you definitely need a fully programible ECU to keep it in one piece. With an 9:1 its optional, I'm not saying I wouldn't perfer it and that it wouldn't be optimal solution, but its not nessasary.

My point of the original rant was why lower compression pistons weren't used when so much other money was used on brakes, wheels, and tires. You can't tell me you think the car runs better with 11.5:1 pistons and the stock cam with FI.

Um guy, I said thats why the needed the tec unit. I didnt say they didnt. And miatas are 9.4:1. the newer onese 99+ are way higher.
Yes I realize that the compression on these motors is lower but, the higher the compression the lower you margin of error so a good ECU is needed

my point was that you DONT need low compression for turbo. Just good tunning

[chrisle7220]

i dunno why we are all arguing about a turbo. im sure everyone would LIKE to have one, but 90% of people in this forum probably wont get it.

[LaW]

question: If we were to lower the gts's compression to say 9:1 would we still need the EMC? It obviously might be a cheaper solution with less tuning involved, just use a safc or something? I'm not very knowledgable and am just inquiring so don't rip my head off if I am :gay: :)

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by chrisle7220
well its not really a problem turbochaging a gt-s, its just that you dont get as much power as the gt does. the gt can easily run 10psi, where as the gt-s can probably only do 5psi. thats due to compression. now if you lower the compression, and stuff like that, you could easily run more boost, maybe 10-20psi. but of course that would cost you a lot more money. and yes when you get low compression pistons, you do lose some hp, but you gain it right back with boost!!!!!!

To which larryd responded


responses like this crack me up.. i should enforce a new rule that says unless you have a clue what your talkin about then dont post :)

:werd: , larry! :chuckles:

[spaldam]

If I had the money to do it right now, I've got a guy from a local shop who keeps beggin me to let him turbo my car. He keeps telling me it'll be about $4k, and he also says he has in's with XS Engineering.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Originally posted by Sublime


I realize this, but in my rant $100 for a copper gasket didn't sound as good as "only" $800 for FI pistons that are ceramic coated and between 8:1 and 9:1 :)
Plus even the copper gasket would of been a better way to go then what they did.


For Gods sake dont turbo your car. You cant buy Turbo Components @ Pic N Save. If you want to lower compression... you buy lower compression pistons, if you want a stronger headgasket you buy a copper headgasket.

And as above... the GTS is probly one of the greatest out of the box NA tunned cars ever brough to the US under $50,000. It wasnt meant to be turbo'd. Buy a WRX if you want a Turbo.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Originally posted by spaldam
he also says he has in's with XS Engineering.

One word... BOOM!

What ever happened to the XS Celica... not there 2ZZ project, I know they are having fun with Detonation on the Matrix. :chuckles: Did the Celica project just die?

[chrisle7220]

could you still turbo a gt-s with stock internals only using 3-4psi?? how much more hp would 3 or 4 psi give you??

[LaW]

Originally posted by chrisle7220
could you still turbo a gt-s with stock internals only using 3-4psi?? how much more hp would 3 or 4 psi give you??

probably not even worth the money you would pay to just use 3-4

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Yeah 4psi is worthless for the 6000 bucks ull pay.

[EnergieEngineer]

Is this xs engineering turbo kit avalible? they used one on scc's matrix.

[larryd]

no its not out yet

[celica_turb00]

HEY spaldam,.,.

I was wondering how did you get your rear celica badge thingy to light up i would really appricaiate if you told me how to do it thanks...

[chrisle7220]

i say, if i were ya'll, id rather buy an s2000, then to turbocharge the gt-s. you will probably spend 7-8k for a turbo and all those other internal mods, why not just buy a car around the 30k range?? changing the internals on the gt-s, is like changing the whole damn engine. and more then half of ya'll wont get a turbo anyways, so it really wont matter.

[LaW]

:werd: I have already ditched out the idea of forced induction on my gts. Damn I am starting to see the fun of just going n/a... that extra money can go to other things....