What is Toyota/Scion thinking?

[silentchaos]

When are these two going to get the thumbs out of their ass and release something to compete with the RSX-S or the new Civic Si. the Tc looks good but not as good as the Celica in my opinion. i love the 2ZZ-GE but lets be honest you shouldnt have to FI it in order to keep up with all of the other factory engines. It seems to me that Toyota/Scion is loosing the 16-25 car/performance enthusist demographic.

Discuss?...

[Ch33z]

:popcorn:

[TrD CeLiCa]

true......

[.2002SilverGT]

well seeing as they dont make rsx-s anymore that just leaves civic si... for that price range

[Carbonized_GT]

thanks cpt obvious.

[wtcnbrwndo4u]

It seems to me that Toyota/Scion is loosing the 16-25 car/performance enthusist demographic.
Way to notice. That's clearly not their market focus with Toyota. They're not looking to impress a teenager, but rather to build a safe and sturdy car rather than a fast, cool looking one.

That's why Scion is there. And they're doing a decent job keeping youth satisfied.

[Zero]

Toyota couldn't give two sh!ts what you think or care. They got the number 1 automaker title without any performance vehicles, and they'll continue to dominate following this trend.

That's all Toyota cares about.

[Nineball]

Read the news. First of all, you're about three years too late on this grand epiphany. second of all, you're completely unaware that toyota has three high performance cars in the works, one soon going up for sale -- The IS-F, the LS-F, and the FT-HS.

[Zero]

Toyota doesn't need performance vehicles to be number one. Look at Honda, they make almost anything!

Is the FT-HS a sure thing?

[Carbonized_GT]

Toyota doesn't need performance vehicles to be number one. Look at Honda, they make almost anything!

Is the FT-HS a sure thing?


Im sure we will see some form of it at the upcoming Tokyo Auto Show.

[Zero]

Toyota doesn't need performance vehicles to be number one. Look at Honda, they make almost anything!

Is the FT-HS a sure thing?


Im sure we will see some form of it at the upcoming Tokyo Auto Show.

Interesting. It looks different and it's s'posed to be a hybrid sports car, right? I might check it out should it comes into production.

[Gas-n-Grease]

toyota only wants to make money, so they'll make cars what normal people want: a reliable, affordable, and good looking (depends on preference) vehicle. Next thing you'll know it, they'll release an automated hybrid or electric car that looks like a box and drives people around... because Americans as a whole, are fat and lazy. I know a lot of people who look at driving as chore. Toyota has already released a self-parking Lexus.
Because of Toyota's inability to satisfy me as a driver/enthusiast in the past, I've taken a liking to Mazda.
Even with their new sports cars coming out, I doubt most people would be able to afford it. We're now left with people who can afford a sh*tty piece of Toyota thats boring and spiritless, and people who can buy their fun and enjoyment. What Toyota needs is a cheap yet lively car like the rumored Hach-Roku predecessor Toyota was/is "thinking" of making.... couple years ago.
Toyota can go bankrupt right now and I wouldn't miss a single car that they make currently.

[Nineball]

What Toyota needs is a cheap yet lively car like the rumored Hach-Roku predecessor Toyota was/is "thinking" of making....

OOOH, mad tyte JDM reference, YO. How many spoilers does your car have?

The FT-HS has been greenlighted, it will be the new supra, but we haven't heard anything since that announcement and haven't seen anything new since the concept was unveiled. New AE-86 rumors continue.

[Sty09]

It wouldnt hurt for toyota to have at least ONE sports car.

[Sty09]

OOOH, mad tyte JDM reference, YO. How many spoilers does your car have?

The FT-HS has been greenlighted, it will be the new supra, but we haven't heard anything since that announcement and haven't seen anything new since the concept was unveiled. New AE-86 rumors continue.

any idea of how much a FT-HS is gonna run? I Wouldnt mind rolling in a black one. :gap:

[Nineball]

any idea of how much a FT-HS is gonna run? I Wouldnt mind rolling in a black one. :gap:


Don't know off the top of my head... Want to say it was $45k that was being thrown around. It's a supra replacement, and a competitor to the new GT-R, so I imagine you'll be getting your money's worth.

[enthennd]

Who cares, buy a car because you like/want it, not because it has a toyota badge..

[toyotapowerx]

[QUOTE=InsideLine]Aug 10, 2007

Toyota and Subaru collaborating on a sports car

[B]Toyota and Subaru are planning on building a small, sub-2.0L sports car, perhaps using the Subie boxer engine. In Japan the Impreza is offered with a 1.5L boxer, so that engine could be the basis. If it comes about, expect the car around 2010.

Frankly I find it hard to believe that Subaru would even consider allowing their
trademark boxer engine to be used in something other than a Subaru.
Then again, the key term used is "under consideration," which means
it's not a done deal by any means. Even so, I find it surprising that the idea is even on the table.

Full story at asahi.com here. More info here and here.

Here's Inside Line's take: Toyota and Subaru Reportedly Planning a Sports Car Together

At the moment it appears this sports car will be badged as a Toyota

[Motor]

They've got their mind on money, and money on their mind.

[neological]

People need to understand that car companies would rather please large groups of shareholders than to please small groups of devoted fans.

The Scion tC outsold the Celica and the MR-S put together.

[FlCeliChik]

When are these two going to get the thumbs out of their ass and release something to compete with the RSX-S or the new Civic Si. the Tc looks good but not as good as the Celica in my opinion. i love the 2ZZ-GE but lets be honest you shouldnt have to FI it in order to keep up with all of the other factory engines. It seems to me that Toyota/Scion is loosing the 16-25 car/performance enthusist demographic.

Discuss?...

True. I don't agree with the Celica being canceled and having a slower car (the TC) replace it.

[FlCeliChik]

People need to understand that car companies would rather please large groups of shareholders than to please small groups of devoted fans.

The Scion tC outsold the Celica and the MR-S put together.

Yea that's true. I also read that Celica sales from '00 to '05 dropped badly so it wasn't just canceled because the '05 sales. They should release a faster version of the Celi or something to replace it better than the Tc.

[silentchaos]

The Scion tC outsold the Celica and the MR-S put together.

where are you getting your facts? the celica first came out in 1975 and the MRS i don't know when. and the tC has been out what 3 maybe 4 years? i'm sorry i don't buy it.

[Orijinalx]

^ he's probably referring to the 7th gens. but i wouldnt be surprised if the tC outsold both those cars.

[drewd]

The Scion tC outsold the Celica and the MR-S put together.

where are you getting your facts? the celica first came out in 1975 and the MRS i don't know when. and the tC has been out what 3 maybe 4 years? i'm sorry i don't buy it.



Here's a dee-de-dee moment if I've ever seen one.

Clearly he means 7th gens and the MR-S. Before the MR-"S" (Spyder) it was known as the MR-2.

[neological]

where are you getting your facts? the celica first came out in 1975 and the MRS i don't know when. and the tC has been out what 3 maybe 4 years? i'm sorry i don't buy it.
I obviously meant 7th gen.

[TRD1zz00GT]

I can understand why Toyota stop selling the Celica GTS. New and optioned out it was almost as much a 350Z and RSX-S.

The TC does a job of filling the market gap left by the Celica, the 2AZ handles boost quite well, but you have to spend 4K on top of the car for the TRD S/C to match/best the SI. You will still get smoked by a SRT-4/Speed3/Cobalt SS. Especially if any are mod'd.

The Celica was never made of Toyota bargin bin parts nor can the TC match the looks, handling, or lineage of the Celica/Supra. Which is why I'll never consider it a replacement as a car.

It would be nice to see Toyota/Scion build a car to match or best all the other car's in it's market share, but...

I'd really like to see someone build a car for all us Celica/TC owners to graduate to.

Back in the day if you saved and worked hard a Supra was attainable.

I just don't see the new Toyota/Lexus supercars being decently priced since they're competing against the base model 65K MSRP Skyline.

I'll never understand how you go from producing cars like the TT Supra or Turbo All-Trac Celica to the fastest car in your line being a V6 grocery getter.

The are really leaving market share open to the 350Z especially if the rumors are true about the 400Z.

30K+ for a used 13-15yr old car with no warranty (Supra). No thanks. I'll be looking for a 405HP C-5 Z06 instead. 24K-26K (used), 405HP stock, HU display, lightweight rims, Titanium exhaust, upgraded handling, and my fav...no more dents, lol. Reflash + long tube headers + exhaust + new crank = stoopid fast.

Waiting 3-4yrs for maybe "AE-86 remake" or "AWD turbo Celica". No thanks. I like Toyota, but not that much.

Something is seriously wrong when domestics are making turbo cars with factory backed parts and the big 2...Honda and Toyota are not answering or making any plans to.

[YotaMan]

For the record, the FT-HS concept is not, I repeat NOT the replacement for the Supra.

Toyota does not have plans for another supra for awhile.

[Zenith]

People need to understand that car companies would rather please large groups of shareholders than to please small groups of devoted fans.

The Scion tC outsold the Celica and the MR-S put together.

This is true but you also forget the drastic differences in marketing. The Tc actually had a group targeted and was designed for that group. The celica and mr-s... Who knows what the hell toyota was thinking. The only thing I can liken it to is playing darts blindfolded.

I can understand why Toyota stop selling the Celica GTS. New and optioned out it was almost as much a 350Z and RSX-S.

The TC does a job of filling the market gap left by the Celica, the 2AZ handles boost quite well, but you have to spend 4K on top of the car for the TRD S/C to match/best the SI. You will still get smoked by a SRT-4/Speed3/Cobalt SS. Especially if any are mod'd.

The Celica was never made of Toyota bargin bin parts nor can the TC match the looks, handling, or lineage of the Celica/Supra. Which is why I'll never consider it a replacement as a car.

It would be nice to see Toyota/Scion build a car to match or best all the other car's in it's market share, but...

I'd really like to see someone build a car for all us Celica/TC owners to graduate to.

Back in the day if you saved and worked hard a Supra was attainable.

I just don't see the new Toyota/Lexus supercars being decently priced since they're competing against the base model 65K MSRP Skyline.

I'll never understand how you go from producing cars like the TT Supra or Turbo All-Trac Celica to the fastest car in your line being a V6 grocery getter.

The are really leaving market share open to the 350Z especially if the rumors are true about the 400Z.

30K+ for a used 13-15yr old car with no warranty (Supra). No thanks. I'll be looking for a 405HP C-5 Z06 instead. 24K-26K (used), 405HP stock, HU display, lightweight rims, Titanium exhaust, upgraded handling, and my fav...no more dents, lol. Reflash + long tube headers + exhaust + new crank = stoopid fast.

Waiting 3-4yrs for maybe "AE-86 remake" or "AWD turbo Celica". No thanks. I like Toyota, but not that much.

Something is seriously wrong when domestics are making turbo cars with factory backed parts and the big 2...Honda and Toyota are not answering or making any plans to.

They don't see enough profit in making a run for that market share which could potentially hurt their respecability in their bland yet refined point a to b cars. In fact I get the impression honda and toyota would prefer the import scene to go away all together as it would definately help with several other nitch markets and those scenes give toyota honda a bad name.

[Nineball]

For the record, the FT-HS concept is not, I repeat NOT the replacement for the Supra.

Toyota does not have plans for another supra for awhile.


http://newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=245026&highlight=FT-HS

WTF is a "supra successor" anyway? Does it have to be named supra? WTF else would you call a high-performance toyota sport car?

Pull the fat supra dick out of your ass and grow up, fanboy. Maybe they'll call it 2000gt, since we're all pining for them to resurrect old lineages. Paseo? Tercel? C'MON TOYOTA, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? WE NEED THESE CARS.

[Carbonized_GT]

Does it have to be named supra? WTF else would you call a high-performance toyota sport car?

The name is very very valuable for older customers. In 1993 all the 16 yr olds probably dreamed of the supra but could never afford it. Toyota could then come out with another Supra, and get those buyers. Similar to what Nissan is doing with the GTR.

High Performance Toyota = Supra. Always will be.

[RevHard]

The name is very very valuable for older customers. In 1993 all the 16 yr olds probably dreamed of the supra but could never afford it. Toyota could then come out with another Supra, and get those buyers. Similar to what Nissan is doing with the GTR.

High Performance Toyota = Supra. Always will be.
x2

It's a legend car now, like the RX7 or the GTR...

[neological]

toyota will never make another supra. They have stated this many times.


Remember, when the last gen supra was in development there were rumors that it would be a 2000GT...

[Nineball]

Remember, when the last gen supra was in development there were rumors that it would be a 2000GT...


...merely rumors... and the celica was the 2000gt's successor, anyway.


High Performance Toyota = Supra. Always will be.


After thinking about it a little bit longer...

High performance toyota = Lexus

I wouldn't be surprised to see the FT-HS being named "Celica", or be next up in the lineage... The LF-A, IMO, would be the supra replacement.

[Boosted2.0]

Does it have to be named supra? WTF else would you call a high-performance toyota sport car?

The name is very very valuable for older customers. In 1993 all the 16 yr olds probably dreamed of the supra but could never afford it. Toyota could then come out with another Supra, and get those buyers. Similar to what Nissan is doing with the GTR.

High Performance Toyota = Supra. Always will be.


Nah = in 93 everyone wanted a new Z28. The Supras capabilities didn't catch on till like 95-96 when some of them started hitting the 500-600 HP range in the US. And even then people didn't buy them. Sales declined steadily till they canned the car in 98

[grommy]

dawn id take this instead of my celi
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/volta.html

[fosgatekid]

yeah everyone is right toyota really f.....d up but there target is older people the smoother the ride is the better but if u want real HP a lexus would do it i own a is350 and well i havent seen a car in cali that can beat it but there is rumor about a new supra that is going to come out in 2008 but dont know yet for sure its going to be have a v8 engine or v6 i think both

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t159184.html

[fosgatekid]

this is some nice rides!!!! check the website


http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t190295.html

[YotaMan]

http://newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=245026&highlight=FT-HS

WTF is a "supra successor" anyway? Does it have to be named supra? WTF else would you call a high-performance toyota sport car?

Pull the fat supra dick out of your ass and grow up, fanboy. Maybe they'll call it 2000gt, since we're all pining for them to resurrect old lineages. Paseo? Tercel? C'MON TOYOTA, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? WE NEED THESE CARS.

I'm a fanboy because I speak the truth?

It's called the FT-HS, douche....not a Supra.

If they wanted to call it Supra, they would have.

Pull your small Celica dick out of your ass and grow up.
:gap:

[Toxygene]

Toyota's reasoning and corporate focus has changed. I think most people don't realize this.

Toyota is now trying to be the GREEN car company. High performance cars don't say to the public environmentally friendly or fuel efficient. The biggest market in the USA is the aging "Baby Boomer" generation which is more interested in SUVs and family type sedans. The same reason you don't see Subaru making a 2 door coupe either. If you don't read business magazines then I'm sure you have to have noticed some of the billboards for Toyota and Subaru touting their fuel effeciency or environmental friendliness. It's obviously a big push for them to put themselves in the minds of Americans as being the fuel efficient car campany. What I find ironic is that they won't put the V6 or V8s from their SUVs into a decent sports car chassis. I don't care if it has a turbo on it or not but obviously Nissan has proven that you don't need a turbo to make a fun affordable sports coupe that has decent gas mileage. But, I guess this is where image is more important than reality and unfortunately the dollar has spoken and we as Americans have put Toyota at the top without the need for them to make a sports car. You dont' have to be an economic genius to figure out that Toyota must have figured this out and probably never really plans on filling the small niche market for a sports car back in again.

As for Toyota and Subaru working together, Subaru already gave their WRX to SaaB as the Aero wagon. I don't see why they wouldn't work with Toyota which already has a large market share and is willing to give back to them in return for working with them on some sort of project. If anything it's even more beneficial for them to do this than it was for the Saab deal.

As for Scion, it is merely a marketing ploy to try to attract the Generation X to the Toyota brand. They knowingly took profit losses on every Scion they sold just to hook the new generation into Toyota. They don't care if some of us remember or know that a Scion TC is slower than the Celica. It's much easier for people to justify the buy since the interior has been likened to a mini Lexus. They are playing upon the Consumerism of the younger generation that cares more about looks than the overall performance. And in Scions defense they do have a good product that I have seen many older people attracted to because of the bargain it offers. The reality is that Scion offers exactly what Toyota and parents want for their kids. A car that is reliable, fun, and can be customized but never really makes it easy for someone to get into too much trouble. That way Toyota minimizes the street racing stigma attached to the faster imports, gains the approval of many kids just looking for a good deal and a customizable option, and plays up on all the brands strengths to hopefully get faithful customers well into the next 10 years. At the same time it removes the same clientelle from walking into a Toyota dealership and mixing with the older crowd. Because, what upstanding family guy wants to be buying a car that could be the target of Police profiling.

The Lexus nameplate is where the sex appeal starts and obviously power for the IS is where it ends. The only option in the IS lineup that offers the manual transmission is the base model. Anything else might include the manumatic shifting but obviously is geared toward what is deemed a more mature driver who wouldn't dare scuff his leather shoes with a heel toe manuever. As lovely as the car looks, it's about as close as any of us will get to a sports car. As for competitors in the same price range? You'd better get your bargaining skills up to par if you want to be able to say you got the manual for a deal better than a 350Z. I don't know if two extra seats are worth it. Only you can make that determination. Ultimately, it's a moot point. Toyota doesn't need a sports car to compete and we've all proven it.

[Nineball]

http://newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=245026&highlight=FT-HS

WTF is a "supra successor" anyway? Does it have to be named supra? WTF else would you call a high-performance toyota sport car?

Pull the fat supra dick out of your ass and grow up, fanboy. Maybe they'll call it 2000gt, since we're all pining for them to resurrect old lineages. Paseo? Tercel? C'MON TOYOTA, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? WE NEED THESE CARS.

I'm a fanboy because I speak the truth?

It's called the FT-HS, douche....not a Supra.

If they wanted to call it Supra, they would have.

Pull your small Celica dick out of your ass and grow up.
:gap:


save us all a headache and stop posting. push the keyboard away from you and turn off the computer. go outside and enjoy some sunshine.

[StaticX27]

save us all a headache and stop posting. push the keyboard away from you and turn off the computer. go outside and enjoy some sunshine.

I'd pay more attention to what Yotaman has to say, because he actually does have a point. Is Mazda's RX8 an RX7? Nope, that car was considered an embarrassment to what the RX7 was. While the car may have similar specs to what a Supra would be if it were released in today's day and age, it's still not a Supra.

And while it's been said a few times here, I'll say it again. Car enthusists in general are a small minority of the automotive industry, yet it requires the most R&D, time and effort from the engineers to appease. Family cars are easy to build, since there are already so many out there. However with a true sports car, the point is to do something that's the best balance between performance vs cost of production. Toyota probably saved a metric shi1tton in profits by cutting out the Celica, MR-S, Supra, etc lines from production, since that's significantly less time they have to spend in R&D building the next generation for a very small market. Its just basic logic: Why spend most of your time in an area that you're getting paid the least? Toyota wouldn't tarnish it's name by just throwing out a car of recycled parts, if it were going to do something, it would do it right; just like any other self respecting car mfg.

[Boosted2.0]

Toyota's reasoning and corporate focus has changed. I think most people don't realize this.

Toyota is now trying to be the GREEN car company. High performance cars don't say to the public environmentally friendly or fuel efficient. The biggest market in the USA is the aging "Baby Boomer" generation which is more interested in SUVs and family type sedans. The same reason you don't see Subaru making a 2 door coupe either. If you don't read business magazines then I'm sure you have to have noticed some of the billboards for Toyota and Subaru touting their fuel effeciency or environmental friendliness. It's obviously a big push for them to put themselves in the minds of Americans as being the fuel efficient car campany. What I find ironic is that they won't put the V6 or V8s from their SUVs into a decent sports car chassis. I don't care if it has a turbo on it or not but obviously Nissan has proven that you don't need a turbo to make a fun affordable sports coupe that has decent gas mileage. But, I guess this is where image is more important than reality and unfortunately the dollar has spoken and we as Americans have put Toyota at the top without the need for them to make a sports car. You dont' have to be an economic genius to figure out that Toyota must have figured this out and probably never really plans on filling the small niche market for a sports car back in again.

As for Toyota and Subaru working together, Subaru already gave their WRX to SaaB as the Aero wagon. I don't see why they wouldn't work with Toyota which already has a large market share and is willing to give back to them in return for working with them on some sort of project. If anything it's even more beneficial for them to do this than it was for the Saab deal.

As for Scion, it is merely a marketing ploy to try to attract the Generation X to the Toyota brand. They knowingly took profit losses on every Scion they sold just to hook the new generation into Toyota. They don't care if some of us remember or know that a Scion TC is slower than the Celica. It's much easier for people to justify the buy since the interior has been likened to a mini Lexus. They are playing upon the Consumerism of the younger generation that cares more about looks than the overall performance. And in Scions defense they do have a good product that I have seen many older people attracted to because of the bargain it offers. The reality is that Scion offers exactly what Toyota and parents want for their kids. A car that is reliable, fun, and can be customized but never really makes it easy for someone to get into too much trouble. That way Toyota minimizes the street racing stigma attached to the faster imports, gains the approval of many kids just looking for a good deal and a customizable option, and plays up on all the brands strengths to hopefully get faithful customers well into the next 10 years. At the same time it removes the same clientelle from walking into a Toyota dealership and mixing with the older crowd. Because, what upstanding family guy wants to be buying a car that could be the target of Police profiling.

The Lexus nameplate is where the sex appeal starts and obviously power for the IS is where it ends. The only option in the IS lineup that offers the manual transmission is the base model. Anything else might include the manumatic shifting but obviously is geared toward what is deemed a more mature driver who wouldn't dare scuff his leather shoes with a heel toe manuever. As lovely as the car looks, it's about as close as any of us will get to a sports car. As for competitors in the same price range? You'd better get your bargaining skills up to par if you want to be able to say you got the manual for a deal better than a 350Z. I don't know if two extra seats are worth it. Only you can make that determination. Ultimately, it's a moot point. Toyota doesn't need a sports car to compete and we've all proven it.


Toyota isn't loosing a dime on the Scion products - they are not making as MUCH profit, but they are making money on them - you can be sure. Scion is as much about the sales and ownership process as about the vehicles themselves.

[wtcnbrwndo4u]

^ Right. Toyota is making a damn good profit with Scions. They sold more Scions the first year than Gen 7 Celicas all together (hell, I bet even just the tC outsold the Celica).

[techgeekwill]

Jumping in at the last minute...

Toyota are not really in the market for "Performance" automobiles. While they do have several racing teams in different classes, this is mainly for advertising.

Toyota is a smart company. Sure, everyone would like a car with 1000hp and zero to sixty in 4 seconds, but are these same idiots willing to pony up the cash? No, and I'm sure the original <del>asshat</del> poster couldn't afford that while working at the golden arches.

Toyota's main selling point is dependable long lasting cars. And for the most part, that is what the average consumer (with money) is looking for. Sporty cars are great, but demand drops after a few months. This is not good for business. Just take a look at the MR-S. It's and awesome little car, reasonably quick, great handling and a host of other advantages. The problem was, it was expensive and didn't offer much in the way of utility. Most people who can afford an extra car for "Fun" aren't the typical person who buy's a Toyota.

Now to Scion. Toyota knows that the American youth are fickle. They are sheep that can be lead by advertising and most of them are members of the church of consumerism. If they were to introduce the xB or xA under the Toyota marque in the US, sales would have sucked more than Senator Craig. What they did was pure genius. Creating the viral subculture and playing off the "underground" helped establish Scion as the "Gen X" brand. Aside from that, the cars are also affordable and very well appointed. If they were to make the tC a track whore, it would be a lot more expensive. They would have had to design a new engine to carry the weight, but why would they do that, the R&D costs were pretty low due to the fact that it is a Camry drivetrain. Low R&D costs = More profit.

I bought my xB for several reasons. Tried and tested drivetrain, space, utility and appointments. I couldn't care less if it was badged as a Pontiac or a Suzuki, so long as they were using a Toyota Drivetrain.

[Toxygene]

Toyota isn't loosing a dime on the Scion products - they are not making as MUCH profit, but they are making money on them - you can be sure. Scion is as much about the sales and ownership process as about the vehicles themselves.


2 dimensional thinking won't work here. It's lacking the fundamental business understanding of making your product known.

It was published a while back and verified by a friend who worked in the car selling business. Their overhead for not only the production of the Scion but the advertising together put them well into the red per car. Sales alone don't mean jack if every car you sell has to be advertised using more dollars per car than the cars that already existed in the Toyota Lineup. Don't get me wrong. Toyota has deep pockets and could afford it. After all, you don't just throw a new name plate out there and expect it to make money overnight without some product placement and advertising. Toyota was full well aware of this before they made the niche market procurement. The idea is not to make a ton of money instantly but to get repeat buyers who will represent an investment on their advertising dollars and a win over other brands that are playing the same old game.

While even the US manufacturers are chasing Honda's tale with new car buyers and trying to compete with Toyota and their more pedestrian cars. Toyota caught everyone by surprise by changing the nature of the field with Scion. It's why Scion appears to be such a bargain. You really are getting a lot for your money. And what does Toyota care if you know that it's a Toyota, it will help bring customers into the Toyota dealership down the line when say that kid gets a little older and now needs a slightly bigger car for the prospect of a family or whatever the case might be. The only people who did this better were the Mini Cooper people but then they out-priced themselves out of the same market and don't have any other products in their lineup. They might have come up with the idea first for the US market but Toyota kicked their ass with their own idea by marketing it better and making it more appealing to a larger audience.

[prockjr20]

guys guys the reason scion is here is cuz the celica mrs and echo failed in the targeted market scion is in now. also there is talk of a new supra. it is supposed to slort the is350 v6 with 350 hp or the gs430 v8 hardtop or hardtop convertible. http://www.2008toyotasupra.net/stills/2008-toyota-supra-sneak-preview-big.jpg also toyota does have bad ass cars america just doesent get them because the us government emission laws r so damn strict its crazy. did u know the corolla we have got the lotus exige superchared engine overseas. toyota does care about performance but wats the point if they have to spend so much money detuning the car just to sell it here in the states if there isnt enough motivation.

[prockjr20]

also i personaly love the celica to death but i respect the tc. its a bada$$ car. u take the same amount of money u would invest in a celica gts and put it in the tc and tell me wich it the faster car. also the tc makes something the gts doesent TORQUE. to me prasing the gts u might as well b considered a honda boy with v-tech. thats just how i feel. its the only engine that has lift in the toyota lineup even in toyota history. also it was co-developed by yamaha. sorry im just a torque guy wich is y i prefer the 1zz over the 2zz. dont get me rong the 2zz has features i like but its not my first choice. think about it if toyota diddent make the 2zz wat would b in the lotus elise a k20 or k24.

[StaticX27]

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty of it, you could compare some of the Lexus / Toyota cars like the Soarer or the Chaser as being "performance" vehicles. Emission laws are not as strict as you think they are when compared to other countries. They are definitely a deterrent for a number of cars in the Japanese market. Wonder why it took so long to get a Skyline approved in the states? :P

[Toxygene]

also i personaly love the celica to death but i respect the tc. its a bada$$ car. u take the same amount of money u would invest in a celica gts and put it in the tc and tell me wich it the faster car. also the tc makes something the gts doesent TORQUE. to me prasing the gts u might as well b considered a honda boy with v-tech. thats just how i feel. its the only engine that has lift in the toyota lineup even in toyota history. also it was co-developed by yamaha. sorry im just a torque guy wich is y i prefer the 1zz over the 2zz. dont get me rong the 2zz has features i like but its not my first choice. think about it if toyota diddent make the 2zz wat would b in the lotus elise a k20 or k24.

The 2zz powered Celica GT-S was supposed to compete with the Integra GSR and offer Integra Type R like performance. The problem was that more people liked the luxury of the Acura brand and felt that the Celica's interior didn't offer the same at a similar price point. The RSX merely put the final nails in the coffin. But Scion showed that people like the interior build quality and overal look more than they needed power. Torque is what the Scion needed for most consumers who won't be driving it at a track at the top of the RPM range.

As for emmissions, the only reason that the Skyline took so long to get here was that the steering shaft if it was going to be a left hand driven car would have gone straight through the area where the turbo chargers sat. That too has been documented in past publications. The cost to redesign that important part of the car wasn't worth it for Nissan. Not to mention they would have had to figure out where in the Infinity line-up the car would fit in. Subaru isn't having any problems nor is Mitsubishi in bringing over their heavy hitters. The only real limiting factor in the cars we get is our poor quality gasoline. You can blame that on the SUVs. There is more demand for the piss poor quality gas and so certain technologies such as Direct cyclinder fuel injection have been delayed in getting to us. Europe has had this technolog in their cars before we had it and it was mainly due to the quality of their gas. Quality being the higher Octane ratings that is. Our emmission controls are actually kind of a joke. We only care if a car has emmisions during constant load or cruising situations. If they tested when a car was accelerating at full throttle, I think a lot more cars would never pass. Emmisions testing is kind of like a condom, in that it offers that lovely sense of false security.

For an example, when I had to have my Alltrac tested, it passed their sniffer test but it failed because my EGR wasn't working. The car actually had no problems passing their sniffer test and passed with flying colors even though the emmisions controls weren't working correctly. This is on a 3sgte engine. Now granted, my CATS are working but that's about the only bit of technology that I think any car really needs to pass the supposedly stringent emmissions testing in this country. Don't get me wrong, I believe in having an Emmisions control policy but I think the government doesn't really care about it enough to really make it a policy with some real science put into creating it's rules.

The Scion really shows that most people in the US only really need the peppiness of some torque more than would need the rev happy motors of an all out track car. For the sports car enthusiast perhaps people should look into a V6 motor swap from the Camry with a TRD supercharger. If the engine in the Scion TC came from a Camry would the V6 fit?

[StaticX27]

As for emmissions, the only reason that the Skyline took so long to get here was that the steering shaft if it was going to be a left hand driven car would have gone straight through the area where the turbo chargers sat. That too has been documented in past publications. The cost to redesign that important part of the car wasn't worth it for Nissan.

Sorry, I needed to read this part a few times to make sure you actually did say what I think you said.

So what you're trying to say is that the Skyline never made it over here because the steering column was on the wrong side, and Nissan engineers couldn't figure out a way to make it work? That just completely blows my mind. I guess that means your average ricer who drops an RB series motor into their LHD S chassis should be applying for jobs at Nissan since they completely owned Nissan engineers.

Or wait, how about the LHD skylines that were released in Russia? Were those done via magic wand? Not sure about that.

It mostly has to do with the fact that the US emission laws don't like turbo charged cars, and it's not cost efficient for a company to release a turboed motor in the US. Second part is that the Skyline most likely would not have done well in the US compared to Japan.

[enthennd]

sorry im just a torque guy wich is y i prefer the 1zz over the 2zz.
The 1zz has no torque either..........get a turbo engine, or 2-4 more cylinders if you want torque.

[wtcnbrwndo4u]

The 1zz has no torque either..........get a turbo engine, or 2-4 more cylinders if you want torque.
:werd:. Oh wow, the 1ZZ has like 10 lb-ft more effective torque... YAY!

And you should say turbo-diesel.

[Toxygene]

Sorry, I needed to read this part a few times to make sure you actually did say what I think you said.

So what you're trying to say is that the Skyline never made it over here because the steering column was on the wrong side, and Nissan engineers couldn't figure out a way to make it work? That just completely blows my mind. I guess that means your average ricer who drops an RB series motor into their LHD S chassis should be applying for jobs at Nissan since they completely owned Nissan engineers.

Or wait, how about the LHD skylines that were released in Russia? Were those done via magic wand? Not sure about that.

It mostly has to do with the fact that the US emission laws don't like turbo charged cars, and it's not cost efficient for a company to release a turboed motor in the US. Second part is that the Skyline most likely would not have done well in the US compared to Japan.

I've never heard of the Left Hand Drive Skylines in Russia. I'll research that for sure. I thought most ricers stuck the SR20DET motor not the RB into the S chassis (Am I wrong)? Perhaps it's more feasible than they stated and that was simply an excuse, but that still doesn't address the cost factor which doesn't concern the engineering feasibility.

I still believe that it was a cost issue not an engineering one or an emissions issue. There is someone who figured out how to fit a Camry V6 motor into a Celica Alltrac in Europe using all Toyota Parts except for one exhaust manifold. Does that mean that it would have been cost effective to make thousands like that? Why is it easier for the Subaru STI and Mitsubishi EVO to run turbocharged 4 cylinders than a inline 6 with a turbo running in the Skyline putting out only a little more power and have them pass emissions? I'll definitley check on this Russian Skyline though as sometimes what we read isn't always the truth and there may be way more politics and complexities to the questions we commonly ask as car enthusiasts. I'll admit I could be wrong but it just makes sense to me the way things played out in the market.

[enthennd]

Why is it easier for the Subaru STI and Mitsubishi EVO to run turbocharged 4 cylinders than a inline 6 with a turbo running in the Skyline putting out only a little more power and have them pass emissions?
They have to have sub 2.0 liters to be in the rally thing.

[enthennd]

:werd:. Oh wow, the 1ZZ has like 10 lb-ft more effective torque... YAY!

And you should say turbo-diesel.
torque/weight ratio!!!

Yeah diesel is a torque overkill. That + bolt-ons + chip.........god who knows, more torque than you need.

[prockjr20]

^ yea imagine a cummins diesel in a supra. holy crap.

[enthennd]

^ yea imagine a cummins diesel in a supra. holy crap.
:puke:

[StaticX27]

I've never heard of the Left Hand Drive Skylines in Russia. I'll research that for sure. I thought most ricers stuck the SR20DET motor not the RB into the S chassis (Am I wrong)? Perhaps it's more feasible than they stated and that was simply an excuse, but that still doesn't address the cost factor which doesn't concern the engineering feasibility.

I still believe that it was a cost issue not an engineering one or an emissions issue. There is someone who figured out how to fit a Camry V6 motor into a Celica Alltrac in Europe using all Toyota Parts except for one exhaust manifold. Does that mean that it would have been cost effective to make thousands like that? Why is it easier for the Subaru STI and Mitsubishi EVO to run turbocharged 4 cylinders than a inline 6 with a turbo running in the Skyline putting out only a little more power and have them pass emissions? I'll definitley check on this Russian Skyline though as sometimes what we read isn't always the truth and there may be way more politics and complexities to the questions we commonly ask as car enthusiasts. I'll admit I could be wrong but it just makes sense to me the way things played out in the market.

Yes, I do know about the Russian skylines being a truth, as I do have a good deal of experience with car importing (Thus why I actually know what I'm talking about, my ITR was imported myself). If you really want I can post pictures all day long of S chassis cars (Including S30's) running with an RB series motor in them. If you want to verify the story about Russia, I think the Prince (or whatever you'd call him in Russia) has one of them.

The reason certain turboed cars are allowed in the US are two different reasons. Jettas, and other older turboed cars have really small turbos. I'm talking T15-T18 sized turbos. The amount of power they put out (or pollution) isn't enough to equate to a velvet painting of a dolphin and a whale getting it on. Evos and STI's on the other hand had to have a completely revamped fuel system to be able to be legalized in the US. I don't know too much about it, being that I'm not a master of smog laws. However, I think most boosted cars from Japan (including the skyline) used a direct fuel injection, where as evos and sti's use a variable fuel delivery system that makes the difference in terms of smog. Again, I'm not certain about this, as I'm regurgitating information I heard from my friend who works in an emissions lab 6 months ago, but I think it was something like that. But that's the reason the EPA, BAR and CARB will not certify a number of JDM motors like the SR20DET and the RB2X series.

[=Josh=]

Toyota is far behind anything performance (any car in the US with a Toyota Badge) scion is a joke when it comes to performance (camry powered)

...

[wtcnbrwndo4u]

Toyota is far behind anything performance (any car in the US with a Toyota Badge) scion is a joke when it comes to performance (camry powered)

...
Who said anything about performance with Scion? They've never marked that as a marketing idea.

[SOAPY]

^^ Don't forget the commercials with the tC power sliding on a futuristic track and the one with it outrunning spaceships or whatever they were. :chuckles: They may not say out right but they're trying to implant the idea of a performance vehicle into the demographic they're targeting. Tho on that point a good number of automakers do the same thing anyway. Now I think about it those commercials really mislead a good margin of tC owners into thinking they're driving a REAL sports car. :rofl: The power of advertising...

[techgeekwill]

Stupidity > This Thread

[Boosted2.0]

Toyota isn't loosing a dime on the Scion products - they are not making as MUCH profit, but they are making money on them - you can be sure. Scion is as much about the sales and ownership process as about the vehicles themselves.


2 dimensional thinking won't work here. It's lacking the fundamental business understanding of making your product known.

It was published a while back and verified by a friend who worked in the car selling business. Their overhead for not only the production of the Scion but the advertising together put them well into the red per car. Sales alone don't mean jack if every car you sell has to be advertised using more dollars per car than the cars that already existed in the Toyota Lineup. Don't get me wrong. Toyota has deep pockets and could afford it. After all, you don't just throw a new name plate out there and expect it to make money overnight without some product placement and advertising. Toyota was full well aware of this before they made the niche market procurement. The idea is not to make a ton of money instantly but to get repeat buyers who will represent an investment on their advertising dollars and a win over other brands that are playing the same old game.

While even the US manufacturers are chasing Honda's tale with new car buyers and trying to compete with Toyota and their more pedestrian cars. Toyota caught everyone by surprise by changing the nature of the field with Scion. It's why Scion appears to be such a bargain. You really are getting a lot for your money. And what does Toyota care if you know that it's a Toyota, it will help bring customers into the Toyota dealership down the line when say that kid gets a little older and now needs a slightly bigger car for the prospect of a family or whatever the case might be. The only people who did this better were the Mini Cooper people but then they out-priced themselves out of the same market and don't have any other products in their lineup. They might have come up with the idea first for the US market but Toyota kicked their ass with their own idea by marketing it better and making it more appealing to a larger audience.


Umm no. First year? Sure - they had to launch the brand. After that? Not so much. Scion spends very little on marketing - they use a lot of Guerilla and grassroots stuff and then spend their dollars for mass media wisely on shows in the right demographic.

BTW - does this look familiar?
http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/396/White%20ST%20185.JPG

Pretty sure its yours - we met at a big Alltrac meet in LA like 3 years ago. Did you ever get that CS hood you were wanting?

[krazyparanoya]

it doesnt matter that they dont make the rsx anymore!its still the ****t! the toyota SUPRA IS ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED TUNERS and it isnt being made anymore!

[enthennd]

it doesnt matter that they dont make the rsx anymore!its still the ****t! the toyota SUPRA IS ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED TUNERS and it isnt being made anymore!
Not really.

I respect almost every car for what it can do, the poopra, I do not.

[StaticX27]

Its a good car, but there are many other legendary tuner cars, mostly from Nissan, not Toyota :p

[racersky]

I had a choice between a Celica GTS vs. a Scion Tc and in the end I picked a scion tc and never looked back nor regret the decision i made.