2ZZ-GE '00-'01 Knock Sensor

[jlitman]

Quick question:

Please confirm whether I am correctly interpreting the info in this thread http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205701

Am I correct that the '00-'01 knock sensors are resonant whereas the '02+ ones are non-resonant?

Also, according to the Toyota shop manual, the frequency is 7.1 kHz -- is this correct? If I cannot select exactly 7.1 is the next higher or next lower value prefered (7.02 vs. 7.17)?

Just trying to set this up properly in the EMU :)

Thanks!

[Gravel]

Quick question:

Please confirm whether I am correctly interpreting the info in this thread http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205701

Am I correct that the '00-'01 knock sensors are resonant whereas the '02+ ones are non-resonant?

Also, according to the Toyota shop manual, the frequency is 7.1 kHz -- is this correct? If I cannot select exactly 7.1 is the next higher or next lower value prefered (7.02 vs. 7.17)?

Just trying to set this up properly in the EMU :)

Thanks!

Was it wired into the S/C harness as standard, or do you have this because you went non-standard to get the water-temp? :shrugs:

Also, what firmware version do you need to get this working?

Cheers JL.

[Jesse IL]

You're gonna need Boosted on this...

[Boosted2.0]

Quick question:

Please confirm whether I am correctly interpreting the info in this thread http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205701

Am I correct that the '00-'01 knock sensors are resonant whereas the '02+ ones are non-resonant?

Also, according to the Toyota shop manual, the frequency is 7.1 kHz -- is this correct? If I cannot select exactly 7.1 is the next higher or next lower value prefered (7.02 vs. 7.17)?

Just trying to set this up properly in the EMU :)

Thanks!


Correct. 00-01 knock sensors are tuned to a particular resonant frequency whereas the newer 2 wires sensors cover a much broader range of frequencies.

Anyways its a guess but I would go with 7.17 kHz. Its closer to 7.1 by 0.01 kHz. Unfortunately theres no way to know how the supercharger being driven off the end of the crank much affect the resonany requency of the motor, but since you have an auto and its not really a rev monster I would think going higher is safer than lower.

[jlitman]

Was it wired into the S/C harness as standard, or do you have this because you went non-standard to get the water-temp? :shrugs:

Also, what firmware version do you need to get this working?

Cheers JL.

Firm not sure, but software is 2.13. Wired into the intake temp sensor and works like a charm -- except I've had questionable settings and exceedingly noisy data.
You're gonna need Boosted on this...
Heh -- I figured :)

Correct. 00-01 knock sensors are tuned to a particular resonant frequency whereas the newer 2 wires sensors cover a much broader range of frequencies.

Anyways its a guess but I would go with 7.17 kHz. Its closer to 7.1 by 0.01 kHz. Unfortunately theres no way to know how the supercharger being driven off the end of the crank much affect the resonany requency of the motor, but since you have an auto and its not really a rev monster I would think going higher is safer than lower.

Great -- cool! Thanks for getting back to me! I know from Frank (ronin) that the car will see more noise due to the S/C, so I will have to keep that in mind while datalogging, but the settings I had initially (non-resonant, "normal" kHz) were waaaay too noisy looking to be correct.

I'll datalog and report back :thumbup:

Now if I can just get my injector problem sussed out... I may be calling you later today :(

[Gravel]

Correct. 00-01 knock sensors are tuned to a particular resonant frequency whereas the newer 2 wires sensors cover a much broader range of frequencies.

Anyways its a guess but I would go with 7.17 kHz. Its closer to 7.1 by 0.01 kHz. Unfortunately theres no way to know how the supercharger being driven off the end of the crank much affect the resonany requency of the motor, but since you have an auto and its not really a rev monster I would think going higher is safer than lower.

How many different flavours of engine setups are there across the globe? My '03, facelift car is both cable-throttle and has a 1-wire knock-sensor! :shrugs:

[Boosted2.0]

Correct. 00-01 knock sensors are tuned to a particular resonant frequency whereas the newer 2 wires sensors cover a much broader range of frequencies.

Anyways its a guess but I would go with 7.17 kHz. Its closer to 7.1 by 0.01 kHz. Unfortunately theres no way to know how the supercharger being driven off the end of the crank much affect the resonany requency of the motor, but since you have an auto and its not really a rev monster I would think going higher is safer than lower.

How many different flavours of engine setups are there across the globe? My '03, facelift car is both cable-throttle and has a 1-wire knock-sensor! :shrugs:


Plus it probably has the European early style through manifold air injection.

I dunno - It sure seems that there are a lot of different configurations.

[jlitman]

Well, FWIW, logging knock as "resonant" and "7.17"kHz seems to yield relatively non noisy data. I see a few places where knock levels go up a bit and timing seems to get pulled a few hundred RPM's later, but it seems to be during gear shifts...

And I believe that's normal -- not sure if it's pulling more than it normally would though.

Don't if this is a cause for concern or not, though I think I can tweak it to adjust ign timing during an upshift in the parameter menu.

[zuoom]

would this help you?

Knock Sensor Light
http://tunertools.com/articles/KnockLite.asp

http://tunertools.com/prodimages/TurboXS/KnockLite_large.jpg

otherwise, this is what i see the tuners around my place use.

http://www.rob-beere-racing.co.uk/tools.html

http://www.rob-beere-racing.co.uk/pictures/newsteth002.jpg
http://www.rob-beere-racing.co.uk/pictures/newsteth001.jpg

[jlitman]

The stethescope would be sweeeeeeeet!

It's about $340 USD... hmmm.

I dunno. I'd like to have something like that, but I'm not 100% convinced I'd be able to put it to good use...

[jlitman]

Minor update:

The settings work like a charm -- I will share some data soon. I need to take a few pulls in 3rd gear. Might do that later tonight. Will definitely be gathering data on the dyno this Thursday :)

[Gravel]

Minor update:

The settings work like a charm -- I will share some data soon. I need to take a few pulls in 3rd gear. Might do that later tonight. Will definitely be gathering data on the dyno this Thursday :)

So does the eManage (or ECU) retard timing based on the Knock-sensor input, or do you just get an nice graph of the knock-levels at the point at which your engine exploded? :shrugs:

[jlitman]

Minor update:

The settings work like a charm -- I will share some data soon. I need to take a few pulls in 3rd gear. Might do that later tonight. Will definitely be gathering data on the dyno this Thursday :)

So does the eManage (or ECU) retard timing based on the Knock-sensor input, or do you just get an nice graph of the knock-levels at the point at which your engine exploded? :shrugs:

The ECU will definitely pull timing when it sees enough knock -- not that it can always do it fast enough to prevent damage (R.I.P., OEM piston #2).

Regarding the EMU, for now, only the latter. However, it is rumored that a future update will bestow this power unto the EMU.

It should prove to be useful for determining where one can safely dial in more advance.

[Gravel]

The ECU will definitely pull timing when it sees enough knock -- not that it can always do it fast enough to prevent damage (R.I.P., OEM piston #2).

Regarding the EMU, for now, only the latter. However, it is rumored that a future update will bestow this power unto the EMU.

It should prove to be useful for determining where one can safely dial in more advance.

What still worries me slightly is that if you get too close to the pinging edge, the ECU could take you into the danger zone if it modifies the fuel trims at all...

[jlitman]

The ECU will definitely pull timing when it sees enough knock -- not that it can always do it fast enough to prevent damage (R.I.P., OEM piston #2).

Regarding the EMU, for now, only the latter. However, it is rumored that a future update will bestow this power unto the EMU.

It should prove to be useful for determining where one can safely dial in more advance.

What still worries me slightly is that if you get too close to the pinging edge, the ECU could take you into the danger zone if it modifies the fuel trims at all...

I'm not taking my DD to the ragged edge again... hopefully she'll be fine from here on out :p:

[zero2toy]

where you going to dyno your ride, can i come :)? PM if you dont mind, id love to check out your set up.

[Boosted2.0]

wow - they tune using Chassis ears to test for audible knock, thats kind of scary.

[jlitman]

wow - they tune using Chassis ears to test for audible knock, thats kind of scary.

I've taken a great deal of interest in this ever since I started doing some tuning and especially after the engine blew -- what do you recommend for monitoring knock --J&S?

[Boosted2.0]

wow - they tune using Chassis ears to test for audible knock, thats kind of scary.

I've taken a great deal of interest in this ever since I started doing some tuning and especially after the engine blew -- what do you recommend for monitoring knock --J&S?


yup. Because it doesn't just monitor knock - it will pull timing and add fuel to combat knock. Mind you the stock ECU also does that to an extent.

[jlitman]

Quick thread revival question (probably for Boosted):

I've now reviwed a few data logs of ignition timing from OBD II and knock sensor activity from EMU, and there is NO obvious relationship between timing and recorded knock sensor activity. It just adds timing in a fairly linear fashion up to (a reported) 22 or so degrees of advance at fuel cut.

The only place I ever see timing drop a bit is at 4.5K, but it always does that even when 0% knock is logged in the surrounding load cells, so I think that's just part of the ECU's factory tune.

The highest I've ever logged is about 55% (usually 0% to mid teens), and given no apparent connection to timing and recorded knock, I'm arrving at the conclusion that ALL of the data that I've recorded is well below the ECU's threshold.

So -- what IS the ECU's likely knock activity threashold? Something closeer to 100%?

Any insights on this would be greatly appreciated!

See this thread for an example of logged knock activity http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=264746

On a related note, if the EMU controlls the coil packs directly to advance and retard igniton timing, would this even show up on the OBD II data -- that is, is the ECU even aware of it?

Changes in the EMU ign tune affect power on the dyno, so it's definitely doing something...

EDIT: To answer my own question, no the ECU is not aware of the timing changes. I'm going to have the crank and cam sensor wired to the emanage soon.

[Gravel]

So, I've just wired up my knock-sensor to my Emanage on the Intake Temp /Knock2 input. It's a 1-wire job, so I've set it to resonant and 7.17kHz but I don't see any activity at all on the logger. Surely I should see some noise? :shrugs:

[Automaton]

Monkeywrench told me that the EMU cannot accurately read knock on the 2zz for some reason, and that's why they only sell the Boomslang harness with air and water temp wired in. Is that BS?

[Boosted2.0]

Quick thread revival question (probably for Boosted):

I've now reviwed a few data logs of ignition timing from OBD II and knock sensor activity from EMU, and there is NO obvious relationship between timing and recorded knock sensor activity. It just adds timing in a fairly linear fashion up to (a reported) 22 or so degrees of advance at fuel cut.

The only place I ever see timing drop a bit is at 4.5K, but it always does that even when 0% knock is logged in the surrounding load cells, so I think that's just part of the ECU's factory tune.

The highest I've ever logged is about 55% (usually 0% to mid teens), and given no apparent connection to timing and recorded knock, I'm arrving at the conclusion that ALL of the data that I've recorded is well below the ECU's threshold.

So -- what IS the ECU's likely knock activity threashold? Something closeer to 100%?

Any insights on this would be greatly appreciated!

See this thread for an example of logged knock activity http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=264746

On a related note, if the EMU controlls the coil packs directly to advance and retard igniton timing, would this even show up on the OBD II data -- that is, is the ECU even aware of it?

Changes in the EMU ign tune affect power on the dyno, so it's definitely doing something...

EDIT: To answer my own question, no the ECU is not aware of the timing changes. I'm going to have the crank and cam sensor wired to the emanage soon.


The ECU pulls timing and adds fuel in response to knock. I've seen vehicles with bad knock running ignition in the low single digit range on accel. I'be even seen some with negative advance numbers.

If you want to see the ECU respond, unplug the battery for 5 minutes on a stock GTS, fill up with some regular gas and then start driving and logging.

[jlitman]

Monkeywrench told me that the EMU cannot accurately read knock on the 2zz for some reason, and that's why they only sell the Boomslang harness with air and water temp wired in. Is that BS?
Yes.


The ECU pulls timing and adds fuel in response to knock. I've seen vehicles with bad knock running ignition in the low single digit range on accel. I'be even seen some with negative advance numbers.

If you want to see the ECU respond, unplug the battery for 5 minutes on a stock GTS, fill up with some regular gas and then start driving and logging.
Back thgen I was datalogging ing on the scantool -- the EMU is more accurate, and I can see where it adds or pulls timing.

[Automaton]

Monkeywrench told me that the EMU cannot accurately read knock on the 2zz for some reason, and that's why they only sell the Boomslang harness with air and water temp wired in. Is that BS?
Yes.
:( I figured Monkeywrench has been doing this long enough that I'd go with "their" harness, which they only sell with air/water temp.

I haven't installed it yet, maybe I can send the harness back and get one directly from Boomslang or something. Is having knock and water temp the best combo?

[jlitman]

:( I figured Monkeywrench has been doing this long enough that I'd go with "their" harness, which they only sell with air/water temp.

I haven't installed it yet, maybe I can send the harness back and get one directly from Boomslang or something. Is having knock and water temp the best combo?
You need water temp wired in to use the target AFR map, which is a VERY nice feature to have.

Use intake for the knock sensor. It might be that it doesn't work reliably for 02+ vehicles that have the non-resonant sensor. I know of at least one person who was able to log something, but he never seemed to get the right khz figured out whereas another peron I know can't seem to get anything to read in.

Works fine for me, and if the EMU programmers ever get their act together on it, there is a way to set it up to pull timing according to preset knock values -- it can already pull or add timing according to intake or water temp, so all you need to do is add a little code to interpolate the knock signal for that map. Voila -- then the EMU would work like a J&S safeguard.

Unfortunately, without the (unwritten) extra code, it doesn't work -- it simpy won't interpolate the knock signal in that menu even though it's wired to the correspinding pin.

For 00-01, use "Resonant" and "normal" for your settings. Interpret any values over 60% with caution and anything over 80%, pull some timing in the corresponding cells.

Note that blowers and possibly other engine modifications (valves?) may create noise misinterpreted by the ECU as knock.

[Automaton]

Oh ok, so even though the 01 and older sensors can be wired in and read, the EMU can't use that signal to change anything. And since I have an 03 on top of it, then I guess I already have the correct/only useful harness for my car.

Also, shouldn't the stock ECU be sufficient to retard timing based on knock? Hopefully your tune is good enough that the stock ECU would only need to make moderate timing corrections, right?

[jlitman]

Oh ok, so even though the 01 and older sensors can be wired in and read, the EMU can't use that signal to change anything. And since I have an 03 on top of it, then I guess I already have the correct/only useful harness for my car.

Also, shouldn't the stock ECU be sufficient to retard timing based on knock? Hopefully your tune is good enough that the stock ECU would only need to make moderate timing corrections, right?
It's still a good idea to datalog knock sesnor activity and make changes to the tune based on it.

Yes, the ECU is still in command of that -- definitely a good thing.

You should be able to get the knock sensor working -- I'm not sure why 02+ sensors are trickier to set up, but the EMU can read non-resonant sensors, so it should work :shrugs:

[JameX]

You need water temp wired in to use the target AFR map, which is a VERY nice feature to have.

Use intake for the knock sensor. It might be that it doesn't work reliably for 02+ vehicles that have the non-resonant sensor. I know of at least one person who was able to log something, but he never seemed to get the right khz figured out whereas another peron I know can't seem to get anything to read in.

Works fine for me, and if the EMU programmers ever get their act together on it, there is a way to set it up to pull timing according to preset knock values -- it can already pull or add timing according to intake or water temp, so all you need to do is add a little code to interpolate the knock signal for that map. Voila -- then the EMU would work like a J&S safeguard.

Unfortunately, without the (unwritten) extra code, it doesn't work -- it simpy won't interpolate the knock signal in that menu even though it's wired to the correspinding pin.

For 00-01, use "Resonant" and "normal" for your settings. Interpret any values over 60% with caution and anything over 80%, pull some timing in the corresponding cells.

Note that blowers and possibly other engine modifications (valves?) may create noise misinterpreted by the ECU as knock.

This got my attention. In order for the AFR target function to work, do I need to select water/knock in the knock settings (also to correctly datalog knock) and do I also need to enable this checkbox?? Only one of them?

I have the boomslang water and knock cable by the way.

Pic worth thousand words:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii178/j-ro_07/waterknock.jpg

[JameX]

Crap, sorry this post was intended for the tuning out fuel trims one. Can't delete it damn