6 Speed Tranny: Is it garbage? [Archive]

RedNOSceli

06-14-2002, 05:24 AM

At 15k miles my car would grind when down shifting into second, toyota rebuilt it with no questions asked....

Now im at 40k and it's doing it again except much worse and in 4th gear as well.

Also, If i try to shift fast at redline, it grinds when going from 1st to 2nd every time...

Obviously worn syncros..

Now I dont "Baby" my car, but I do not, in any way abuse it or drive it very hard at all...Ive been to the track a total of 3 times sence Ive had the tranny rebuild and put maby 3 full bottles through it in the last 6 months....So say, 5 or 6 full quarter mile passes sence the tranny was put in.

This car is a sports car and it is ment to be "driven" every now and again. Ever sence the rebuild Ive never ground a gear, which usually leads to pre-mature syncro failure. Im changing the gear oil today to see if that will prolong a trip to the dealer, but how many of your are having this problem?

I was talking to a Toyota Tech at the track who happens to work at a local dealership(Larry Miller Toyota, Peoria AZ) and he said "The syncros in that 6 speed literally destroy themselves" He went to go on how toyota didnt think people would drive the car to redline like they do and that the syncos were not built for it etc..

I know another buddy of mine, X-Evil-X is having simillar issues and his car has about the sames miles as mine....

When they had it last it was for a full week, 1 day to pull the tranny out and say "Yup, It's broke" and a week to order parts..

I can't get a rental because Im not 25 so it's a pain to get another car...

Now I love my car, but my Ext. Warranty is only good till 100k and If I have to take my car in every 20k to get the tranny rebuilt, I may have to get rid of it.

Anyone else have this issue/feel this way?

Blue Bomber

06-14-2002, 05:50 AM

I had the same problem with my car, but it was basically my own fault. I had my transmission replaced at around 12k. I've got 50k on it right now, and absolutely no transmission problems (except a squeaky clutch every now and then).

It all comes down to your shifting style. When you say you shift fast at redline, that isn't good at all for the synchros (neither is forcing the shifter into gear if you encounter resistance). It basically forces them in, causing wear on them. The synchros are made of a softer metal than the rest of the transmission (bronze I think). I can land above 6000 in 2nd by just slipping the clutch for an instant.

BTW, grinding gears doesn't mean you're grinding synchros, too. It means the synchros are lined up but the gears aren't at an acceptable speed, so only the gears are grinding each other.

RedNOSceli

06-14-2002, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by Blue Bomber
I had the same problem with my car, but it was basically my own fault. I had my transmission replaced at around 12k. I've got 50k on it right now, and absolutely no transmission problems (except a squeaky clutch every now and then).

It all comes down to your shifting style. When you say you shift fast at redline, that isn't good at all for the synchros (neither is forcing the shifter into gear if you encounter resistance). It basically forces them in, causing wear on them. The synchros are made of a softer metal than the rest of the transmission (bronze I think). I can land above 6000 in 2nd by just slipping the clutch for an instant.

BTW, grinding gears doesn't mean you're grinding synchros, too. It means the synchros are lined up but the gears aren't at an acceptable speed, so only the gears are grinding each other.

When I say shift fast, I mean stick the clutch in, stick the shifter in the next gear and let of the the clutch fast...Its not trying to stay above 6, just get into the next gear faster...

Actually, that grinding is syncros....The gears never actually move along the shaft and are always meshing with eachother while the output shaft spins in the center of the gears...A synchro's purpose is to allow the collar, which is directly attached to the ouput shaft, and the gear to make frictional which "Syncs" the collar and the gear at the same speed enabling the collar to lock into the selected gear.
That grinding noise is the collar/syncro just jamming into the side of the gear....

The gear teeth them selves never actually do any moving(aside from spining)

Check this link out, very informative

http://www.howstuffworks.com./transmission2.htm

djm221

06-14-2002, 07:48 AM

I've never had a problem with 32,000+ miles on my GT-S.
And I am sure Toyota designed the car so that it could not withstand being driven to redline - that is just a stupid statement.

cruzerz545

06-14-2002, 08:13 AM

it is

Raw Iron 1

06-14-2002, 09:50 AM

Hello.

That sounds like my old man's slightly tricked 87 CRX Si 5-speed stripped down. It came with a short throw shifter but it said in the owner's manual not to try to shift it fast even though it had a short throw. Then what the hell is the point in putting a short throw in it?!? I sometimes wonder just what they are smoking when they design some of the cars out there.

Jason

ToJo

06-14-2002, 10:12 AM

I used to grind into second quite frequently at redline shifts.
Then I changed my shifting style and haven't grinded at redline since. And I shift faster.

insunan

06-14-2002, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by ToJo
I used to grind into second quite frequently at redline shifts.
Then I changed my shifting style and haven't grinded at redline since. And I shift faster.

How about sharing your technique with the rest of us?

Zorn

06-14-2002, 11:40 AM

The car wasn't meant for Nitrous / no matter how few bottles you run through it.

1/4 mile track is so hard on cars - yet you expect nothing to go wrong?

40k miles, and it appears you don't have a clear definition of what "abusing" a car really is.

I can't believe you are serious with this post.

Kit99bar

06-14-2002, 11:59 AM

Do you press the cltuch all the way to the floor when doing normal shifting?

I believe the clutch only fully engages when it is all the way down

2002GT_Celica

06-14-2002, 01:31 PM

You know, with all the problems people are having with the manual transmissions on both the GT and GT-S, I am glad I just got an automatic. Sorry, but between grinding gears, misshifts, and synchro problems, it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

cybrpunk

06-14-2002, 01:42 PM

djm221

06-14-2002, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by 2002GT_Celica
You know, with all the problems people are having with the manual transmissions on both the GT and GT-S, I am glad I just got an automatic. Sorry, but between grinding gears, misshifts, and synchro problems, it just doesn't seem worth it to me.
Yeah, it's almost not worth it :rolleyes:

Even if I did have problems, it's still well worth it.

chameleon

06-14-2002, 02:28 PM

2000 GTS w/B&M short throw

I have zero problems with my transmition

LEDmod

06-14-2002, 10:02 PM

Manual tranny are more reliable and cheaper to replace then auto..
It's all depends on how you use it.....
Automatic are perfect everytime.... if we can atleast drive well and becareful about it.. there shouldn't be a proclem with manual..
But like everyone if you have manual they tends to drive harder then auto.....
That causes problem...

Jeff

06-15-2002, 04:25 AM

I know of only 2 ways of keep your synchro from wearing out fast. Maybe look into it...

A) Double clutching when downshifting ... Do it all the time and then you wont even notice it shortly after you started doing it. It becomes the natural thing to do. With practice, it doesnt take much more time than downshifting normally. The only time I am not double clutching during a downshift is if I switch from 6th to 5th gear, or 4rth to 3rd. I double clutch on all other downshifting combinations. Like I said, I becomes so natural that shifting any other way seems awkward. It also remove strain on your engine since the RPM's wont jerk up/down all the time.

B) Dont force the shifter in position nor dont move it at extreme speed. If the shifter dont wanna go in, no matter what you do, the synchro's wont like it. If it doesnt wanna go in, apply point A). It'll go in smoothly. Just make you rev-match to proper RPM's while double-clutching. Additionnally, if you move the shifter real frikken fast into the gear, you will not allow the synchro to do its work, which is to accelerate/decelerate the tranny's selected gear. With worn, grinding will ensue.

You can press and release the clutch real fast, no much harm will be done to your tranny. But look at your synchro like a clutch disk. The synchro wear out everytime you shift. If you help your synchro (double-clutching with rev-matching and not slamming the shifter in gear like a crazy mofo), then you will never get headaches from your tranny again.

Only my humble opinion.

I'm a 32k and its still running like a nrand new car.
Cheers

RedNOSceli

06-16-2002, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by Zorn
The car wasn't meant for Nitrous / no matter how few bottles you run through it.

1/4 mile track is so hard on cars - yet you expect nothing to go wrong?

40k miles, and it appears you don't have a clear definition of what "abusing" a car really is.

I can't believe you are serious with this post.

First Off, what the fu*k are you coming in here and starting sh*t for? How are a few quarter mile passes "Abuse" and how, if you could please state some logic, would nitrous have ANYTHING, what so ever, to do with syncros going out? You act like I live at the track or something...Ive been to the track ONCE sense ive had the tranny rebuilt. Lets see....When you grab the bottle you

Jeff

06-16-2002, 06:03 AM

Jeez dude, take a chill pill.

He just made a comment. You may or may not agree, its still no reason to bust him like this.

BoyRacer

06-16-2002, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by 2002GT_Celica
You know, with all the problems people are having with the manual transmissions on both the GT and GT-S, I am glad I just got an automatic. Sorry, but between grinding gears, misshifts, and synchro problems, it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Haha, keep telling yourself that. thats GT has few to no problems with the engine or the tranny. only problem with mine so far at 32k miles is the clutch wearing out. your probably right, the grass isnt greener on the other side :) hehe

t2000gts

06-16-2002, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by BoyRacer

Haha, keep telling yourself that. thats GT has few to no problems with the engine or the tranny. only problem with mine so far at 32k miles is the clutch wearing out. your probably right, the grass isnt greener on the other side :) hehe

if i had gotten a GTS 6-speed instead of an Auto (i'd still go for one), i know i would've gone through like 3-4 trannies a year, i would be speedshifting off the rev limiter at every light :D and that's if the dealers touched the cars, here in NY, they don't like to cover ANYTHING, even if corporate toyota is yelling at them.

Tony01Gts

06-16-2002, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by djm221
I've never had a problem with 32,000+ miles on my GT-S.
And I am sure Toyota designed the car so that it could not withstand being driven to redline - that is just a stupid statement.

Thats very contrary to what a toyota tech told me the day before yesterday. He said that Toyota built these cars with hi cam and redline and marketed them for the younger drivers. He said that they did not however build the tranny well enough for the punishment that these drivers would put on the tranny. He said that they are not meant to be shifted above 7k!
Read my post in Performance Mods that says "Update on tranny problems" for a LOT more detail into this problem.

I am compiling a database for several of us owners with the tranny/synchro problems and mis-shifts. Bluebomber and RedNOSCeli please send me your info as it will be invaluable to me as well as the rest of us going to arbitration with Toyota over these problems and they will also help you and others when taking your car in for warranty work.

The info I need is:
Name
Email
Yr. and model (should be 6sp GT-S to be relevant)
VIN
Dealership
Tranny/synchro problems- yes or no
mis-shift- yes or no

If you have had both say so. I took my car in because of the poor shift quality (grinding gears or not going in at all) and they told me it was nothing. Then I had a misshift. A month after the fixed that, I took my car in for the same synchro problem (it had gotten worse) and they had to overhaul my whole transmission. So I'm trying to see/prove that tne tranny problems may play a PART (I know some of it has got to be driver error) in the misshift problem.

Tony01Gts

06-16-2002, 10:11 AM

Ok the post is in general discussion where I am compiling a list of owners and info with these problems. The post says "6spd owners tranny/synchros? misshifts?"etc

XeroDgrees

06-16-2002, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Zorn
The car wasn't meant for Nitrous / no matter how few bottles you run through it.

1/4 mile track is so hard on cars - yet you expect nothing to go wrong?

40k miles, and it appears you don't have a clear definition of what "abusing" a car really is.

I can't believe you are serious with this post.

I can't believe you are actually serious about your post. heh

Anyways, Toyota targeted the younger generation buyers and if they expected them to buy these cars they expected hard driving use.... That's an intellegent assumption.

However, if they did think the younger generation buyer wouldn't drive hard in these cars, thats a huge mistake on their part.

RedNOSceli... you should've asked LOW_ETs on www.nextcelica.net ...he's the Toyota Tech and a real genius

zcs626

06-16-2002, 11:21 AM

hell yeah, low_ets is so damn smart i swear.

MilinGTS

06-16-2002, 12:06 PM

maybe the problem lies in the fact that it is a cable shifted car.

it should be rod shifted like the old GSR integra...it would provide better shift feel and possible better reliability and better shifting.

this is my humble opinion.

jrv2kGT-S

06-16-2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Zorn
The car wasn't meant for Nitrous / no matter how few bottles you run through it.

1/4 mile track is so hard on cars - yet you expect nothing to go wrong?

40k miles, and it appears you don't have a clear definition of what "abusing" a car really is.

I can't believe you are serious with this post.

Ah, but you are wrong. The 2ZZ-GE series engines were built to withstand high RPM abuse (Hence, the short stroke, high compression and lighter bottom end compared to the 1ZZ-FE). Who knows, maybe there is a specific mechanical defect with his specific C-60 tranny.

XeroDgrees, I second that.

2002GT_Celica

06-16-2002, 12:44 PM

Cronos

06-16-2002, 01:04 PM

TRD Liquid Silver

06-16-2002, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Jeff
I know of only 2 ways of keep your synchro from wearing out fast. Maybe look into it...

A) Double clutching when downshifting ... Do it all the time and then you wont even notice it shortly after you started doing it. It becomes the natural thing to do. With practice, it doesnt take much more time than downshifting normally. The only time I am not double clutching during a downshift is if I switch from 6th to 5th gear, or 4rth to 3rd. I double clutch on all other downshifting combinations. Like I said, I becomes so natural that shifting any other way seems awkward. It also remove strain on your engine since the RPM's wont jerk up/down all the time.

B) Dont force the shifter in position nor dont move it at extreme speed. If the shifter dont wanna go in, no matter what you do, the synchro's wont like it. If it doesnt wanna go in, apply point A). It'll go in smoothly. Just make you rev-match to proper RPM's while double-clutching. Additionnally, if you move the shifter real frikken fast into the gear, you will not allow the synchro to do its work, which is to accelerate/decelerate the tranny's selected gear. With worn, grinding will ensue.

You can press and release the clutch real fast, no much harm will be done to your tranny. But look at your synchro like a clutch disk. The synchro wear out everytime you shift. If you help your synchro (double-clutching with rev-matching and not slamming the shifter in gear like a crazy mofo), then you will never get headaches from your tranny again.

Only my humble opinion.

I'm a 32k and its still running like a nrand new car.
Cheers

i agree with you!

Zorn

06-17-2002, 02:56 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedNOSceli
[B]

First Off, what the fu*k are you coming in here and starting sh*t for? How are a few quarter mile passes "Abuse" and how, if you could please state some logic, would nitrous have ANYTHING, what so ever, to do with syncros going out? You act like I live at the track or something...Ive been to the track ONCE sense ive had the tranny rebuilt. Lets see....When you grab the bottle you

Zorn

06-17-2002, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by jrv2kGT-S

Ah, but you are wrong. The 2ZZ-GE series engines were built to withstand high RPM abuse (Hence, the short stroke, high compression and lighter bottom end compared to the 1ZZ-FE). Who knows, maybe there is a specific mechanical defect with his specific C-60 tranny.

XeroDgrees, I second that.

The engine's ability to withstand high-rev RPMs, and the abuse one puts on a clutch and slamming the car into gear are two totally different things. Abusing your syncros and kicking the RPMs up are not the same.

RedNOSceli

06-17-2002, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Zorn

Real mature response. You obviously have no idea what abuse many parts of your car go through by doing any amount of 1/4 mile passes. Nitrous has to do with you expecting this car can take abuse and keep going without problems. Syncros going bad is the effect of your abuse to your car. The 'lots of other' cars you have driven hard and not had problems with has no bearing on abusing a car and having it eventually break down.

Toyota built the engine, and the syncros. The engine wasn't meant for nitrous and the syncros weren't meant for abusing.

Keep up the good work buddy.

How was it immature...I got my point across...

Shifting fast is abusing hu? We're not talking about "power shifting, gear jamming shifting" just some fast shifting such as any time you get on it to merge onto the freeway. Thats basicly what a quarter mile run is except for the fact you only go to about 70mph. But as you said, this kind of driving is abuse, so every time I get on it to get on the freeway, im must be abusing my car right. Once again...Toyota Master Tech hard at work with his diag and solution...

BTW, ive had TWO toyota Techs here in PHX state that the syncros in the tranny were not designed to be be used at 7000+ rpms, as well as mutiple persons on this board have heard the same thing from other Toyota Dealers... which makes no sence because that's well below the redline of the car.

How are you going to argue with that? Really, I mean if you want to turn this into a 5year old pissing contest, Ill give you the win, I could care less...

I know the 00 tranny has issues, toyota knows the tranny has issues and thats the way it is...BTW, I just got a call from my service advisor, getting a new tranny, no questions asked...Hmmm, why could that be?

Tony01Gts

06-17-2002, 04:35 PM

bastard I didn't get a NEW tranny.... I'm scanning the parts that were replaced... watch this

Tony01Gts

06-17-2002, 04:41 PM

http://tones321.com/transmission.jpg

Tony01Gts

06-17-2002, 04:42 PM

Oh sh*T hey don't call me guys we're not like that

ZIGGY GTS

06-17-2002, 05:55 PM

Actually, the tranny problems was the reason my car was lemon lawed..when it had 28, 000 miles, the 4th gear synchro's were grinding. it stayed at the dealer for 31 days while they rebuilt the tranny. then at 49,000 miles, it did it again, same exact problem. This time, the dealer thought of other things like bad shift linkage, shift fork, even worn shifter bushings! but i knew it was the synchro's again, so i let them keep it for another 3 weeks while i drove a new camry, then i filed for arbitration. They wanted to rebuild it again but i said no. I feel the same way as RedNosCeli. I merely drove the car like it was supposedly meant to de driven. I did not grind gears or anything of the sort. I feel that the tranny has weak synchro's. After gettin rid of the celi, i bought an old school 91 integra with 103,000 miles. I've now had my car for a year and it has 135,000 miles of street racing, freeway racing, in other words--tons of abuse! and guess what, my synchros are still holding together.=)

spaldam

06-24-2002, 01:21 AM

M SPEC

06-24-2002, 06:07 AM

All I can say is my car is at the Toyota dealer for the next 3-4 weeks waiting for parts from Japan to fix my transmission under warranty. 2nd gear grinding on 1 to 2nd gear up shift, when shifting at high rpms. Never mis-shifted. 35,000 kilometres on the ODO.

Jeff

06-24-2002, 06:54 AM

Funny cuz it tgook my dealer 3 days to fix my 4rth gear synchro a year and a half ago ...

3 to 4 weeks. Thats ridiculous.

CelicaNamja79

06-24-2002, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by cybrpunk

Who's having problems with their 5spd GT?

I've had this problem with my original tranny after I've replaced a 2 and 3rd gear synchro. It was grinding really bad when downshifting to 2 or 3 gears. Toyota initially told me that the clutch and tranny couldn't handle the mad torque and it was grinding. Anyhow I had my tranny replaced and it is doing okay now. It does grind sometimes when I downshift really fast and when I try to shift fast from 1st to 2nd. I guess I need to work on my shifting technique because I do grind a lot from 1st 2nd. Funny thing is I grind in my car but I don't grind in my friends Integra at all. I don't like how our car's shifter sits real high compared to Integra or civics.

Fiero

06-24-2002, 09:16 AM

Wow, I have been gone a while.

This tranny issues seem to be becoming far more of a problem. I can't believe Toyota wouldn't build a tranny to handle the power of the car. If the techs are actually saying the truth, then that is ridiculas and EVERY car should be lemon lawed. But if that happened, Toyota would never bring out a performance car again...

How much TQ and HP can the Celica Tranny withstand? I know in the Fiero world, people are putting up to 500HP on their Getrag 5spds which were designed for the old GM 2.8L V6 (140hp and 170TQ). So, are the Celicas actually going to be able to hold up to everyones Forced Induction plans?

And no, I am not trying to flame, just really curious since I still really like the Celica and wouldn't mind getting one as a daily driver.

cybrpunk

06-24-2002, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by CelicaNamja79

I've had this problem with my original tranny after I've replaced a 2 and 3rd gear synchro. It was grinding really bad when downshifting to 2 or 3 gears. Toyota initially told me that the clutch and tranny couldn't handle the mad torque and it was grinding. Anyhow I had my tranny replaced and it is doing okay now. It does grind sometimes when I downshift really fast and when I try to shift fast from 1st to 2nd. I guess I need to work on my shifting technique because I do grind a lot from 1st 2nd. Funny thing is I grind in my car but I don't grind in my friends Integra at all. I don't like how our car's shifter sits real high compared to Integra or civics.

Okay, that makes 1 out of how many GT owners on this board? I redline once or twice a day since Nov. '99 and my car has no problems, transmission, or engine wise. I know this is going to shorten the life of the engine big time but you know why I have no problems with my tranny? Cause I make clean shifts all the time. I make sure my clutch is all the way down shift into gear and let out.

The only way I see 5spd owners grinding into gear is if they step on the clutch, and stop at the footrest. Or part of the floor mat is over the footrest. Half of your foot is on the clutch peddle while the other is directly over the footrest.

Also, are you running nitrous on your GT? Cause that's the only you will get "mad torque" from your GT.

What do you guys think?

CelicaNamja79

06-24-2002, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by cybrpunk

Okay, that makes 1 out of how many GT owners on this board? I redline once or twice a day since Nov. '99 and my car has no problems, transmission, or engine wise. I know this is going to shorten the life of the engine big time but you know why I have no problems with my tranny? Cause I make clean shifts all the time. I make sure my clutch is all the way down shift into gear and let out.

The only way I see 5spd owners grinding into gear is if they step on the clutch, and stop at the footrest. Or part of the floor mat is over the footrest. Half of your foot is on the clutch peddle while the other is directly over the footrest.

Also, are you running nitrous on your GT? Cause that's the only you will get "mad torque" from your GT.

What do you guys think?

Yeah, I really don't push my clutch in all the way. I try to just tap it and shift it... If I make a clean clutch press, my gears never grind. No, I am not running no NOS.

Cronos

06-27-2002, 02:17 PM

My 5th gear synchro started going out about a month ago and it's getting worse.

Question for those who have had tranny work, did you remove your short shifter before bringing it in if you have one?

Question for 00 owners that have had the tranny replaced after the 02 tranny shift gate change. Did you get a tranny with the 02 or 00 shift gates?