TRD Pistons In stock for GTS [Archive]

gts24

06-19-2002, 05:23 PM

Ya know , I know I'm on the low end of the todem pole when it comes to information about anything.

But it would be nice if someone could just say once and for all IF we can even run these with our crappy gas here in the states or if we are gonna make our Celica into a non daily driving "race car"....

Bottle, I know I'm not gunna be able to buy these from you YET. but could you just tell us if we can use them for a daily driver?

Bottle

06-19-2002, 05:31 PM

I have to check the compression to make sure it is 12.5:1, I think it will be fine as long as you put 93 octane in the car.

TRlPPlN

06-19-2002, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Bottle
I have to check the compression to make sure it is 12.5:1, I think it will be fine as long as you put 93 octane in the car.

im SOL..im in CA.

ghostface

06-19-2002, 06:43 PM

hey how come you gt-s guys dont just go to a machoine shop and get your bottom ends redone..i talked to a guy at a machine shop and he said he could just get crower pistons or wiesco pistons..i cant remmeebr which he was tlakin about..but he made it seem like as long as the pistons were the right size that he could put higher compression pistons in..so why hasnt anybody done this yet...or is it so important to use trd pistons bewcasue of the warrentee..oplease fill me in oln why pople wont just get custom pistons ..im pretty sure they make pistons for this purpose if u wanted them..let me know

ghost

LEDmod

06-19-2002, 07:03 PM

I believe those pistons are 13:1 according to Dave Draper...
He posted while back about this piston... it was 13:1
Even with this piston, since it's Japan TRD parts.. it's not warrented by Toyota......

yota_racer

06-19-2002, 07:06 PM

WOW!!! Kinda spendy. I wouldn't mind some higher compression pistons though. A lot safer when running NOS if I am not mistaken. Any chance of a GB on these Bottle??

krayze

06-19-2002, 07:41 PM

shouldn't you use lower compression pistons when using n2o, not higher.

yota_racer

06-19-2002, 07:45 PM

Lower compression is good for FI such as SuperCharger and Turbo.

Bottle

06-19-2002, 07:55 PM

I might be able to bring it down a few bucks, but the profit is really not there for me. I just brought them in for somone ready to go the extra mile.

krayze

06-19-2002, 08:18 PM

yeah but i thought that you still needed it for n2o, Nitrous is still a form of forced induction.

kuno

06-19-2002, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by krayze
yeah but i thought that you still needed it for n2o, Nitrous is still a form of forced induction.

I've been around for a while, but I guess Im still a noob when it comes to this kind of information..

could someone fill us in? I always thought when you are using a form of FI, including n2o you needed lower compression to avoid blowing the engine

00CericaRuss

06-19-2002, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by TRlPPlN

im SOL..im in CA.
:stupid:

these are the jdm ones, right? if so, i think they're either 13:1 or 13.5:1

i'll get these sometime around never....

EzRidA

06-19-2002, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by kuno

I've been around for a while, but I guess Im still a noob when it comes to this kind of information..

could someone fill us in? I always thought when you are using a form of FI, including n2o you needed lower compression to avoid blowing the engine

It's a yes and no answer. Yes you need lower comp pistons if you want to run more n20. No you don't need lower if you just want to run a 30shot. The higher the comp on the car, the more potent the n20 becomes on the engine. In the end it's all relative.

krayze

06-19-2002, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by EzRidA

It's a yes and no answer. Yes you need lower comp pistons if you want to run more n20. No you don't need lower if you just want to run a 30shot. The higher the comp on the car, the more potent the n20 becomes on the engine. In the end it's all relative.

i understand but how does higher compression make it safer to use n2o?

EzRidA

06-19-2002, 09:15 PM

N20 isn't safe any way you cut it. Unless of course you build up the entire engine. With higher comp you can use a 30shot and it'll feel like a 50shot with the stock 11.5:1 ratio.

SlasherX

06-19-2002, 09:21 PM

i can't see this high a compression ratio being used in ANY daily driver here in the USA..

EzRidA

06-19-2002, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by SlasherX
i can't see this high a compression ratio being used in ANY daily driver here in the USA..

The highest I could possibly see is 12.5:1. Even that is pushing it. I just wish TRD would just say yes or no this will work on US pump gas.

gts24

06-19-2002, 10:14 PM

that's the thing. This is not a TRD USA part, it's strictly a TRD Japan part imported over here.......

Oo DaRk StAr oO

06-19-2002, 10:15 PM

13:1 and 1500 bucks is an awesome price!!!

kabal57

06-19-2002, 10:29 PM

heh too bad all we get here in no.cal is 91 :(
just a bit off topic, but russ your sig is freakin awesome
I had something like that in mind but you beat me to it :thumbup:

Oo DaRk StAr oO

06-19-2002, 11:09 PM

Cali sucks balls.

ctkrider

06-19-2002, 11:14 PM

Hey bottle, is there anyway for you to ask your contact, or whoever sold you the part and ask them if these pistons will work on our cars in the states w/ 91 octane? I think that would help out your sales a lot more. BTW, thanks for your support to the celica community, God knows that not many other stores/companies jump at buying and importing a part like this for us Celica owners.

-Richard

00CericaRuss

06-19-2002, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by kabal57
heh too bad all we get here in no.cal is 91 :(
just a bit off topic, but russ your sig is freakin awesome
I had something like that in mind but you beat me to it :thumbup:

hehe... thanks... i hit mt tam on a good picture day :)

Spec GTS

06-20-2002, 12:37 AM

i've seen a few new 02 m3's around here in cali and i heard that they have 12.5:1 compression pistons...jus a thought

MilinGTS

06-20-2002, 07:54 AM

yeah i think it is possible just make sure you have an SAFC in there to add more fuel to safeguard....either that or just push in some bigger injectors.

theres quite a few all motor cars running this kind of compression around here if im not mistaken

EzRidA

06-20-2002, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by MilinGTS
yeah i think it is possible just make sure you have an SAFC in there to add more fuel to safeguard....either that or just push in some bigger injectors.

theres quite a few all motor cars running this kind of compression around here if im not mistaken

Fuel delivery or fuel starvation isn't the problem. I think the problem is going to be the extrem detonation that may occur since we're under what octane might be needed. I'm sure 13.1:1 would work beautifully on race gas, but race gas is expensive and hard to come by.

jer925

06-20-2002, 12:32 PM

the gas would be easy for me to get a hold of cause both my parents drag race and they use something simaliar to avation fuel, i think it's like 110 octane. that would be nice for those pistons, however the price for a daily driver would be out of this world. i think they pay like $3.00/gal but i'm not totally sure on that. how much hp/tq would this boost the engine.

Death_Adder

06-20-2002, 05:29 PM

Has anyone done the math for the effective cr on a turbo running 10 psi would be? This is just a guess, but I'd think it'd be pretty close.

Death_Adder

06-20-2002, 06:57 PM

Ok, here's my math. I'm no ChemE (CS actually) so it may not be completely right, but it looks good to me. :D If there's anything wrong with my argument, feel free to enlighten me.

Ok, I did this based on a single cylinder and used the ideal gas law PV=nRT where P = pressure in Pa, V = volume in m^3, n = number of moles of gas, R = the gas constant (8.314 J/mole*K), and T = temperature in Kelvins.

First, let's establish a few facts:
* the displacement on the Celica is 1.8L, or 0.45 L per cylinder.
* With a 10:1 CR on the GT, the top dead center volume would be 0.045 L, for the GTS with 11.5:1 it would be 0.039 L.
* 1 atm = 14.69 psi = 101325 Pa
* 6 psi turbo = 14.69 + 6 = 20.69 psi = 142651 Pa

The basis of my argument is to find the amount of gas in a cylinder at boosted pressure levels. Holding the amount of gas and temp constant, calculate the effective volume at normal pressure (1 atm). Having the effective volume, divide by the TDC volume to calculate your effective CR.

First, calculate the number of moles of gas for a 6 psi turbo. I use 30

Death_Adder

06-20-2002, 07:03 PM

Wow, maybe I should've looked on the internet first. Just found this formula

((boost psi / 14.7) + 1) x motor compression = effective compression

http://www.motorsportsdigest.com/forced2.htm

So, using 6 psi,
For a GT:
((6 / 14.7) + 1) * 10.0 = 14.08
GTS:
((6 / 14.7) + 1) * 11.5 = 16.19

Wow, that's pretty close. Sometimes I amaze even myself. :D

EzRidA

06-20-2002, 07:22 PM

Good job on the free hand mathematics. However this still doesn't answer the question if the engine car run efficently and effectively with 93 octane gas.

Death_Adder

06-20-2002, 07:32 PM

I guess the point that I was trying to make was that if the turbo guys expect to run these kind of CR's, you shouldn't have any problem with high CR pistons.

Going by the article that I linked to above (which is a good read, BTW), it shouldn't be a problem at all:

For a car that will see the streets ... [and] [w]ith the proper fuel system and related engine components, an effective compression of 16:1 to 18:1 should be more than workable.

EzRidA

06-20-2002, 08:07 PM

I follow what your trying to say. I'm still skeptical that pump gas will be able to support the 13.1:1 ratio. Believe me though that if it does I'll be more than estatic.

GTS LAID

06-20-2002, 08:48 PM

unfortunately the ideal gas law is just that... ideal... for high pressure situations you're gonna have to use the van der waal equation of state.

Death_Adder

06-20-2002, 10:29 PM

Well, we're exactly not counting molecules here. For the purposes of estimation, the IGL is good enough.

Death_Adder

06-20-2002, 10:37 PM

Actually, if you want to be exact, it'd get a lot harrier than Van der Waal's. There's lots of different gasses in there: O2, CO, CO2, NO, O2, H2O, maybe some H2. Not to mention partially atomized fuel vapor. You'd also have to know the air-fuel ratio, which of course varies for different RPMs. Point being, about the best you can do for this problem is IGL. You could never calculate it exactly. If you wanna give it shot, have at it. :D

Death_Adder

06-20-2002, 10:51 PM

Oh yeah, for you non-Chemistry people who have no idea what Van der Waal's formula is all about, it makes corrections to the ideal gas law to allow for molecular size and inter-molecular interactions for a particular gas. IGL assumes all gases to have no size and have no inter-molecular interactions. Each gas has it's own size and interaction constant. But the corrections are very small and only useful if you need to very accurately measure something. It's neglible for the purposes of this discussion.

GTS LAID

06-20-2002, 11:35 PM

lol... i was just joking about using the vander waal eq...

haha ... good luck trying to determine either of the alpha pressure correction or beta volume correction coefficients... not to mention the volume of the molecules and the number of mole...lol...

better off going with some experimentally derived equation like the one you stated above.

PorkchopSpecblue GT-S

06-21-2002, 07:48 AM

Will this work on 93 octane pump gas what about 94 octane pump gas? I have to know. As soon as somebody finds out,
please let me know.

tripnotic

06-21-2002, 10:35 AM

:AF: , wow, y'all are very hi-tech with equation. I feel out of place now...

The Wok

06-21-2002, 10:55 AM

And that is why I stopped taking science classes altogether. Econ ownz! :D

dx3162

06-21-2002, 11:28 AM

I honestly dont think there would be a problem as long as you're using a good 93 or 94 octane, possibly with an octane booster. Think of all the guys in eclipses and supras that crank there boost to 20+ psi on 93 octane gas. Some even use the stock injectors....nuts....Im just thinking that boosting that high on reg gas is worse then running high comp pistons on reg gas. But what do i know? Maybe we should ask TRD.

t2000gts

06-21-2002, 02:08 PM

they pump 94 octane gas here...you think that would be alright?

Camry2000

06-23-2002, 10:46 AM

I am running an effective CR of 13.6 : 1 on my SC'd Camry and have used 91 octane, when 93 is not available. I never heard my engine knock or detonate.

I think you guys would be OK cause the Celica does have knock sensors and will automatically retard timing if it senses knocking. The real questions is will there be any real world HP gains?

loudceli

06-24-2002, 05:01 AM

What about 91 octane at 5300 ft. elevation.

Camry2000

06-24-2002, 08:00 AM

I was never that high, but I did use 91 octane in ABQ, NM because that was all they had. ABQ, NM is about 3,000 feet in elevation, higher in other places. My car was definitely slower but no pinging, dentonation or knocking.

tirechirp

06-24-2002, 08:10 AM

Guys, you don't have to be stuck with an astronomical compression ratio. Monkeywrench Racing has been selling their custom pistons for the 2zz for a while. They'll make them whatever compression ratio you want. And they're about 1/3 the price of the TRD pistons. Do a search!

I just told one of my coworkers that people were eager to pay $1400 for a set of 4 pistons and he's still laughing.

GTS LAID

06-24-2002, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by tirechirp
Guys, you don't have to be stuck with an astronomical compression ratio. Monkeywrench Racing has been selling their custom pistons for the 2zz for a while. They'll make them whatever compression ratio you want. And they're about 1/3 the price of the TRD pistons. Do a search!

I just told one of my coworkers that people were eager to pay $1400 for a set of 4 pistons and he's still laughing.

bet you he owns a ford

Bottle

06-24-2002, 07:07 PM

You guys have to understand that these are tried and tested pistons, not just that one shop made them and said the compression is higher.

This is proven and tested by trd japan.

I bring these hard to get parts in for the celica community, to help the guys that want to push the envelope.

Yes you can run these pistons on pump gas, 93 is recomended. Honda guys drive daily on high compression pistons and all.

Someone out there wants to be the fastest celica NA out there.

4PASNU

06-24-2002, 07:18 PM

well a friend runs 12.5 in his si with no problem

ToJo

06-24-2002, 08:10 PM

The price alone is not enough info.
As usual with a performance mod, we need a DYNO pic!

Anyone have any guesses on gains? Are we going to get 210 to the wheels with pistons, CAI, and exhaust? Or is it more like 190?

Bottle

06-26-2002, 07:54 PM

I wish I had a celica that would put it in there car and do some dyno figures.

steckelberg

06-26-2002, 08:14 PM

I'd love to see what these can do in someones car. Especially if we can run pump gas. If it happens and we get a decent dyno increase people will kill for these. Someone just has to step up.

GTS LAID

06-27-2002, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by Bottle
I wish I had a celica that would put it in there car and do some dyno figures.

I'll buy a junkyard 2zz engine for testing if you sending me the things... i'll even put it in my car...

the biggest problem in knock and the difference between our gasoline and japan's gas is sulfur content... in one of the article in posted a long time ago it shows a bar graph comparing the different contents in diff. continents... basically i'd like to do an internal study of different refineries ... maybe even give people an easy way of testing their pump gas for sulfur content using an indicator.

gts24

06-27-2002, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Bottle
I wish I had a celica that would put it in there car and do some dyno figures.

Everyone would love to do this. However, nobody wants to do it when there is absolutely no one giving us any straight information.

I mean we're talking 1400+ Bux for something that nobody will tell us if it even works.

We have a couple "guesses" ... like .. "if you run 93 you should be ok. ..... I mean that's quite a gamble even for the hardcore enthusiasts.

I'd love to do it, but I can't afford to gamble my engine, and that much money on a product that I/we have no clue will even work.

Every guide I've ever read about compression. This is honda-tech guides for going all motor. Every guide there doesn't even come close to 13:1 compression ratio............... that is what makes this really scary.

Honda guys that run a 1.8 litre b18 series never even get close to 13:1 for street purposes...

that's what makes this incredibly scary.

Bottle

06-27-2002, 07:44 AM

These are actually made in the USA for TRD Japan and TRD USA. Like I said it is tested by TRD for driving.

Camry2000

06-27-2002, 07:51 AM

I can not speak for Celica engines but my SC'd Camry at about 13.6:1 compression and I am only running 4PSI of boost. There a a few Camrys out there with 7psi of boost which puts them at about 15.6:1! They all seem to be OK on 93 octane pump gas for the past year.

autxr

06-27-2002, 08:03 AM

You guys crack me up.

All of thse posts scream "ricer." If you want to go fast, you have to pay to play.

I know folks running 1ZZ engine that are de-stroked to 1.6 liters (it's called class racing). You know what they do? They pay to have custom cranks made. They get out the check book, etc.

If you can't afford to break the engine, then don't mod it, or wait until the parts are mainstream.

Everyone here wants a magic pill, guess what, there isn't one yet.

Scott

Camry2000

06-27-2002, 09:13 AM

I don't think anyone is waiting for a magic pill or not willing to pay to play. The problem is these pistons are like the "+20HP Timing advanced kits" you see on eBay.

I have no doubt TRD tested them. I have no doubts they give an increase in power. I have no doubts TRD found no problems. However in the real world where the fuel is not as good as in Japan, you might trip the knock sensors, causing the timing to retard. This negates any power increase you may have gotten. My $0.02.

gts24

06-27-2002, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by autxr
You guys crack me up.

All of thse posts scream "ricer." If you want to go fast, you have to pay to play.

I know folks running 1ZZ engine that are de-stroked to 1.6 liters (it's called class racing). You know what they do? They pay to have custom cranks made. They get out the check book, etc.

If you can't afford to break the engine, then don't mod it, or wait until the parts are mainstream.

Everyone here wants a magic pill, guess what, there isn't one yet.

Scott

Weren't you one of the people saying there was no possible way to street 13:1 compression ratio some time ago?
I'm not trying to be a ricer, this is an open forum and I'm just trying to get some answers to logical questions.
I mean, a web page, or a .pdf or something like that would be fine.

Would you buy the AMSS header without them doing dyno tests to prove that it actually does do what it say it does?

I'm not trying to beat down what bottle is trying to do or sell. I am just asking questions.......................................

autxr

06-27-2002, 10:43 AM

yes, I did say that, and I still maintain that you don't want to run 93 octane with 13:1 compression.

What good is a high comp piston if the ECU retards the spark timing to a point that you lose power, then it decides that isn't enough and trips teh CEL, giving you less power once again.

This post isn't about pump gas anymore, it's about people wanting dyno's and numbers, etc.

You want to know how it will work out? Well, buy it and find out. That's what racers and tuners do.

As for the header? Yes, I would buy it based on their claims. I would go to a dyno and test it. If it didn't live up to the claims, I would return it for a full refund.

Scott

ringthree

06-27-2002, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Bottle
These are actually made in the USA for TRD Japan and TRD USA. Like I said it is tested by TRD for driving.

Bottle, does this mean that we can get the TRD warrenty with the parts? That would turn things around pretty quickly for people. I just dont see it happening.

gts24

06-27-2002, 10:57 AM

Ok scott, I see your point.

However, that is my point. We are getting a lot of conflicting views here.

On one side, we've talked about this for quite some time, in the performance forum and possibly in the technical discussion forum. We basically came to the point that there is no way that 13.5:1 is streetable in any way. Coming to this conclusion after going over details and reading up about people that have actually done huge all motor buildups on various other honda websites. Basically that you'd need to run something over and above 93 octane gas.

However, that is exactly the opposite of what Bottle is saying. He is saying that these pistons are actually made in the USA and are tested by TRD USA and TRD Japan. That 93 octane gas would be just fine. If it has truly been tested by TRD USA, could we see that information? That in itself would cause this product to sell of the shelves insanely fast.

I honestly would consider buying these if it would work out for daily driving, but 1400 is tough to do if this is an actual TRD part with a shroud of mystery behind it. I will not be doing f/i , I want to go all motor with this car.

Just slapping on a header vs putting in pistons to test out is a very large difficult thing to do.

Not trying to argue with you Scott, I'm just asking the questions I know are on people's minds.

autxr

06-27-2002, 11:27 AM

http://www.bgsoflex.com/crchange.html

Here's a neat little calculator. I'm just starting to research the effect of compression ratio on horsepower (with compression ratio being the only variable).

In our case, the calculator says we will net a whopping 5 horsepower!

Get lighter wheels. Same cost to purchase, much cheaper to install, and just as effective.

Here is more info:
http://my.inil.com/~dlbrown/ofcrc.htm

The reason for high compression pistons is to combine them with big overlap cams. You need the higher static compression to make up for all teh combustion gas you blow out the exhaust ports. The net effect is tremendous though.

The people that should be looking at these pistons are the ones that NEED an extra 0.1 seconds on a 2 minute per lap road course. That might be the difference between pole position and starting 3rd (not that there is a class for a Celica with high compression pistons).

In drag racing, if you have some insane need for an extra few hundreths of trap speed, then go for it, but you have to pay to play.

With higher compression comes higher streeses on the engine. A 13-14:1 race engine that is run for 4 hours at race speeds will likely get the main and rod bearings replaced every 4 hours (rebuild after every race). A 10.5:1 compression engine run the same way can go years without needing that service.

I see posts in this thread from folks that seem to think they should be able to go to 13:1 AND KEEP THE WARRANTY!!!

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Scott

PS: Will someone smarter than me explain the effect of ignition timing on horsepower? How much gain or lass can you expect for a degree of advance/retard. Would the 5 hp gain from the compression ratio offset the 3 or 4 degree retard in timing you see from the increased pinging.

PPS: You might be able to get away with pump gas while using these pistons. It might be lower performance due to the spark timing.

BUT, you can put in 100+ octane gas for the track, and possibly see the full gains (5 hp or more?) once the engine advances the timing fully.

BoyRacer

06-27-2002, 11:45 AM

basically the scenario is this. dont buy them if you cant afford to rebuild the engine. They may not offer much more power if any. They are more than likely safe if TRD released them to USA and Japan. as bottle said its for the extra mile customers. secondly you would more than likely have to run 93 octane + fuel additive on every tank. thats petty much the answer to everyones questions.

gts24

06-27-2002, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by BoyRacer
basically the scenario is this. dont buy them if you cant afford to rebuild the engine. They may not offer much more power if any. They are more than likely safe if TRD released them to USA and Japan. as bottle said its for the extra mile customers. secondly you would more than likely have to run 93 octane + fuel additive on every tank. thats petty much the answer to everyones questions.

No.

They are NOT released through TRD USA, bottle says that trd usa tested them, but this is strictly a TRD Japan part,

go to the performance forum and check through and read David Draper's posts that confirm this.

BoyRacer

06-27-2002, 03:05 PM

i said trd released them TO usa, not THROUGH usa :)

LEDmod

06-27-2002, 03:21 PM

Hmm.. In Las Vegas we can only get 91.. which is preminum....
I believe Californica is 91 too..
There are like 76 that has 100.. that but that is like double or more price... 3-4 bucks a gallon...

gts24

06-27-2002, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by BoyRacer
i said trd released them TO usa, not THROUGH usa :)

I'm pretty sure that David and Bottle are getting these through an importer in Japan........

dee5330

06-27-2002, 05:05 PM

do you have pix of these bottle?

ToJo

06-27-2002, 06:58 PM

Someone in Japan must've gotten them installed and dyno'd. We need a detective.

Don't they get dyno results for their products? They need to dyno the hell out of them for testing anyway, don't they? C'mon! How tough is it to show the customer what your product can do?

Maybe horsepower gain isn't that great and they don't want to show it. Maybe $300 for 10+whp on a CAI has me spoiled. I don't even want to spend the $500 or so on an exhaust because the gains are so much less than CAI.