Smaay 2ZZ Little Boy Kit Development Thread

[Jesse IL]

As Smaay has been hinting at, his Little Boy kit should be coming out very soon. The prototype will be done on my car and will be running by the end of October. This little bad bitch arrived on my doorstep yesterday and will be heading out to Smaay today.

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-1.jpg

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-2.jpg

This is a 48 trim GT2871R, Garrett P/N 743347-1 and should be good for the 320-370 whp range depending on boost and engine build.

The beauty of using this turbo is that it is directly interchangeable with two other turbos, depending on your power goals. The kit would also be available with:

GT2860RS, Garrett P/N 739548-1, good for 270-330 whp depending on boost and engine build

GT2871R, 56 trim, Garrett P/N 743344-2, good for 375-450 whp depending on boost and engine build.

Since the MAFS housing will be the same on all kits and since fuel is related to airflow, the same base map can be used for all three applications. I will be writing maps for both return and non-return fuel systems based around MWR 630cc injectors, 255 lph pump and stock MAFS. These maps will be developed from my current turbo map, which already has over 50 revisions and years of work into it.

So hopefully Smaay will keep us up on the progress of the fabrication over the next month and answer any other questions about the specifics of the kit.

[deercelica]

+reps.

It's beautiful, Jesse. Congratulations, I hope all goes well and in a timely manner!

[h8eternal]

thats awesome
what will the kit consist of/

[hombredelassrta]

very nifty

[fraugts]

Good luck with everything...

[Dan-E 01 GT-S]

...o0o yea i cant wait!!!!
im getting one fo sho im getting that fo sho fo sho fo sho!!

:applaud:
SMAAY BUILT
:jerkoff:

[bt216]

sounds like some nice options. :thumbup:

[oONoGoAutoOo]

very nice. can't wait to see the finished product on your car Jesse.

[QTRMLR_1]

awesome. turbo is tempting me... I'd get this one in the future. must first break into the 13s N/A.

[Jesse IL]

must first break into the 13s N/A.
:laugh:
You're like 4 or 5 years late to that party.

[Soo__Fuego]

^^^^^^^^ im pretty sure he meant that as a personal goal, he never said he wanted to be the THE first to break 13s n/a

[kortik]

whats the difference between big boy and little boy kit?
is it just the turbo size?

[QTRMLR_1]

:laugh:
You're like 4 or 5 years late to that party.

uh....I know that. I've been a member here for 4 years and know 00silvergts6spd/Lucky317(ecelica) and other people.

personal goal.

[Entranced]

sounds fantastic! been waiting on this ever since it was announced!

hopefully he can keep the price down to the 3,000 range instead of the 4200 range.


1) the map you suggested to provide is based off of the PFC, correct?

2) I've heard that people have more problems with the integral wastegated turbo's over the external.. what's your standpoint on this, and does it differ at all performance wise?

[Jesse IL]

uh....I know that. I've been a member here for 4 years and know 00silvergts6spd/Lucky317(ecelica) and other people.

personal goal.
Just so you know, to hit 13's N/A you're probably going to drop a bunch of money on stuff like a header and tuning, just to ditch all those parts.
1) the map you suggested to provide is based off of the PFC, correct?
Correct. That's what I have so that's what I'm writing the map for.
2) I've heard that people have more problems with the integral wastegated turbo's over the external.. what's your standpoint on this, and does it differ at all performance wise?
I don't know where you heard that, it makes no sense. An external wastegate turbine housing can be slightly more efficient than an internal wastegate housing. That assumes you route the wastegate flow back to the downpipe in a good way. There are also many ways to do internal wastegate downpipes where some designs have distinct advantages over others. As you can see in the pic above, I have a very open flange with a 3" oval hole. The adapter is 3" oval to 3" round, so the downpipe design should be very free flowing and efficient, compared to more simple designs where there is just a plate over the wastegate flapper and a tiny downpipe just coming off the turbine side. Those are highly inefficient and prone to boost creep.

[Entranced]

im not sure where I heard it, but it was probably based around a poor design in their downpipe based off a cheap honda ebay kit. haha.

looks like a great setup, and I cannot wait for the kit to be released! hopefully it will rival turbokits.com price... and if it comes with a map that's been revised by one of the best, then I better start saving now!

[Jesse IL]

I'm totally unsure how Smaay is going to package it. There is no good reason for him to include a PFC, fuel pump or injectors, as you could buy those just as cheaply as he can. If it were me offering the kit, I'd offer just the parts that make up the actual kit, then let the customer go buy the stuff I mentioned above. The map would be available as simply a free download. If you bought the kit, you know the map would work on your car.

[Entranced]

well i'd think that he'll probably try to include them in the kit as it is a kit. I know as a buyer I would want the kit to come with everything I would need and have it all there in front of me at once. I wouldn't want to sell a kit without injectors and have someone install it and blow up their car because they forgot about them, not to mention the amount of PM's or calls for questions about which set of injectors he wants people to buy; where the customer can purchase them, how much they cost, etc etc. If it's all included it's just one kit, one price, no questions needed unless the above average customer wants something special.

[QTRMLR_1]

Just so you know, to hit 13's N/A you're probably going to drop a bunch of money on stuff like a header and tuning, just to ditch all those parts.


I know that as well. But thanks for informing me. what I have so far: Power FC, FC datalogit, AEM UEGO wideband, AEM CAI Gen 2., Boosted2.0 ported stock header (payed for 2 months ago), 8.5 lbs Clutchmasters flywheel and Clutchmasters stage 2 clutch, UR alternator and water pump pulleys, 15" Motegi Traklites at 10 lbs each, fully gutted interior->no carpet, insulation gunk, sunroof mechanism, door panels, etc, carbon fiber hood, B&M shortshifter.

What I plan to do/get: electric exhaust cutout right after the cat. BFG dr's. Fine tuning on a dynapack at Church Automotive.

Where I plan to run: Infineon Raceway in Sonoma, CA. 100 ft above sea level.
(I take trips to NorCal several times a year anyways.)

How's that?

If I don't get in the 13s, I'd suck as a driver.

EDIT: I left out a few other mods I have now. ES front and rear motor mount inserts. TRD struts and springs. magnaflow high-flow cat.

[QTRMLR_1]

Just so you know, to hit 13's N/A you're probably going to drop a bunch of money on stuff like a header and tuning, just to ditch all those parts.


actually it's just the CAI and the header. and of course I would have to tune the turbo.

[Entranced]

actually it's just the CAI and the header. and of course I would have to tune the turbo.

depending on what size turbo youd be getting, you might have to ditch the entire exhaust... a 2.5" exhaust might give you some problems with backpressure.. unless your running the cutout before the cat which would make more sense anyway, but you'd have to have it open always... which isn't good.

[QTRMLR_1]

depending on what size turbo youd be getting, you might have to ditch the entire exhaust... a 2.5" exhaust might give you some problems with backpressure.. unless your running the cutout before the cat which would make more sense anyway, but you'd have to have it open always... which isn't good.

right. no big deal.

[h8eternal]

i like the idea of the kit not coming with everything. im sure it will make it more affordable for us who are piecing together out setups little by little. i plan on having PFC and Wideband before ever getting a kit and some things that some kits included i would rather be without such as a cat converter which is expensive and i would rather go catless. any ball park figures as far as prices go?

[Jesse IL]

The kit not containing certain parts does make the kit cheaper in the end. Keep in mind that Smaay is one guy and doesn't have the capital to stock tons of parts on the shelf like MWR. Even if Smaay didn't mark up the parts because of the hassle of sourcing them and fronting money for them (which every shop does), he would have to pay to ship all the parts to him and that cost will be passed on to the customer. Part of the reason why many kits are very expensive is that there are all sort of middle men for no good reason. Honestly, if you can't handle procuring four parts on your own, you have absolutely no business instaling a turbo on your car.

Saying that you need every single part in a turbo kit is like saying that you can't handle buying your intake, exhaust and header from different places, which we all know anyone can handle. There are even a number of people on this forum who have found cheap sources for a number of these parts, like jlitman.

[QTRMLR_1]

i would rather be without such as a cat converter which is expensive and i would rather go catless. any ball park figures as far as prices go?

cat expensive? no. magnaflow high-flow, non-CARB for $50-$100. CARB $150-200. cheap.

and I agree with marc on his opinion of people who go catless. selfish, irresponsible pricks. "enjoy cancer, inhaling all those carcinogens."

[Beyza64]

this will be perfect cause i am not looking for 400 or 500 hp goal!!!
250 hp to 300 hp is way more than perfect without building the engine, looking forward for the results..

[Beyza64]

will it work on a 04 gt-s ?

[QTRMLR_1]

will it work on a 04 gt-s ?

it doesn't come with EMS. so the answer to that is easy to find. (it's up to you which EMS you want that will work with DBW).

[Entranced]

^^ hydra or greddy e-manage with possible v-manage to get the most out of it.

[h8eternal]

Saying that you need every single part in a turbo kit is like saying that you can't handle buying your intake, exhaust and header from different places, which we all know anyone can handle. There are even a number of people on this forum who have found cheap sources for a number of these parts, like jlitman.

not to mention if you cant piece together your own parts for this kind of setup or dont know what parts you would need shows a lack of experience on the subject and that alone can lead to troubles. no offense to anybody here.

cat expensive? no. magnaflow high-flow, non-CARB for $50-$100. CARB $150-200. cheap.

and I agree with marc on his opinion of people who go catless. selfish, irresponsible pricks. "enjoy cancer, inhaling all those carcinogens."

if your going to get a cat converter your getting it for emissions purposes so you ofcourse will need a CARB approved aftermarket cat or a super expensive oem one.
50-150 may be cheap for you but the way i see it is, why spend that much on a cat that wont save you from emissions inspections and wont gain you as much as a test pipe that can be made cheaply especially when you are having a completely new exhaust made.
to me theres no point in keeping the cat, once you have a standalone ECU you already fail inspection so why bother :confused:

this will be perfect cause i am not looking for 400 or 500 hp goal!!!
250 hp to 300 hp is way more than perfect without building the engine, looking forward for the results..

im not so sure about 300hp without engine building, i know its been done before but i know of only one celica thats done it and i dont think he is running his car at x amount of boost for 315whp all the time.
sounds risky

[Entranced]

this will be perfect cause i am not looking for 400 or 500 hp goal!!!
250 hp to 300 hp is way more than perfect without building the engine, looking forward for the results..

im not so sure about 300hp without engine building, i know its been done before but i know of only one celica thats done it and i dont think he is running his car at x amount of boost for 315whp all the time.

I'd believe it'd be easily attainable. remember it's all about cylinder pressure. you could run 8-9 psi on a good tune safely, and with some good breather mods you'd be set. a P&P, for example, is a cheap way to get an extra 20+ hp, especially when your turbo'd.

Some are getting 300 or so just off of the 8psi on the turbo alone! just depends on the setup you have, imo.

[h8eternal]

wouldnt that be considered engine building?

[Entranced]

hmm... depends how you look at it since your not adding any parts to it, just opening up the airways a bit. but i guess you could say that. idk, i'll get back to you after I get my car dyno'd with this kit on it =P

[QTRMLR_1]

if your going to get a cat converter your getting it for emissions purposes so you ofcourse will need a CARB approved aftermarket cat or a super expensive oem one.
50-150 may be cheap for you but the way i see it is, why spend that much on a cat that wont save you from emissions inspections and wont gain you as much as a test pipe that can be made cheaply especially when you are having a completely new exhaust made.
to me theres no point in keeping the cat, once you have a standalone ECU you already fail inspection so why bother :confused:


to you, it's all about the inspections. nothing about the environment and public health. it's a matter of principle. if everyone thought like you and ran without a cat, we'd be fvcked.

enjoy cancer. :sadwave:

[Pulsar1]

to you, it's all about the inspections. nothing about the environment and public health. it's a matter of principle. if everyone thought like you and ran without a cat, we'd be fvcked.

enjoy cancer. :sadwave:

A tree hugger who wants to mod his car? wtf...ok

[Jesse IL]

As far as a catalytic converter, the prototype for my car is only going to include a downpipe, no exhaust whatsoever. This is actually how most turbo kits are sold. From there, you can just cut the front off your stock midpipe and adapt the pipe right to that, which will keep the cat and make the car pass inspections and emissions. If you wanted an exhaust, I know Smaay has made them for other people and I'm sure he can provide one. I'm simply going to have mine made locally. My car will not have a catalytic converter.

[QTRMLR_1]

A tree hugger who wants to mod his car? wtf...ok

lol. sounds ironic, huh?

but really, I'm not a tree hugger, a hippie, or even a liberal. everyone who is concerned about the environment is not a tree hugger, which is one extreme. people who go catless are the other extreme. there's a huge spectrum in between. if we were all saints and if the environment were the most important thing to us, we'd all give up our gas guzzlers and drive electric cars or bicycles, etc.

I like to mod my car, but I don't think it's worth going catless only to gain a few hp, causing 1000 times more damage to the environment than someone who has their cat. My modded car as it is now emits fewer than the max number of pollutants allowed during a CA smog test. Even when I turbo, I plan to stay within allowable polluting levels by keeping my cat.

Air quality in the L.A. area used to be very bad many years ago, but improved dramatically with the introduction of more stringent emissions requirements. However, L.A. air quality is still not that great and the 30 million people who live in the greater Los Angeles area are several more times as likely to die from lung cancer and suffer respiratory problems than the average American. If just a few percent of SoCal drivers were to go catless or drive around with old, defective cats, those 30 million would be so much worse off.

I'm reminded of the time when I was at Disneyland and I was horrified to see smokers smoking in the smoking only area WITH their children. They had to watch their kids, right? I even saw a few in strollers. Leaving them alone would be irresponsible, right? The poor kids had no choice but to inhale all that second-hand smoke. Absolutely disgusting. And so I'm going to end with an analogy. Someone who drives around in their car without a cat is like that person who smokes in front of non-smokers in a public place. They don't give a damn about others.

[Entranced]

more polutants are given off of lawnmowers and other such equipment than are given off cars on a daily basis. a handful of people going catless isn't going to change the world...

LA is an exception when it comes to air quality. It's a city and therefore has a lack of trees to filter the air out and it's covered by mountains so there is hardly a passing wind to help circulate the air. U.S isn't the only one with vehicles in the world. other nations couldn't give a crap about whether their cars they sell have a cat or not. if your really worried about the emissions cars give off, go oversea's and have them MAKE an emissions program... or have every car that's not OBDII compliant taken off of the road completely. i.e. every car pre-'96 should be scrapped.


anywho, back to the kit... finish it already so we can buy it! =D lol. im excited to see how well it puts up on the dyno, when it hits boost, and the whole lot. Jesse, how soon do you think you'll have this prototype completed?

[Celica Drift 27]

bump for curiosity. Hope to see results soon.

[Jesse IL]

Well the parts should be arrivinig at Smaay's today, so there should be progress soon. We talked Friday about everything.

[bt216]

a 2.5" exhaust might give you some problems with backpressure.. unless your running the cutout before the cat which would make more sense anyway, but you'd have to have it open always... which isn't good.
i agree that the cut-out should be in front of the cat, but he wouldnt have to run it open all of the time. it will only richen it up a bit.

[Entranced]

yeah maybe.. 2.5" isn't that much of a restriction... but with the cat, resonator, muffler, it could be enough to cause a misfire.

[waiipor]

lol. sounds ironic, huh?

but really, I'm not a tree hugger, a hippie, or even a liberal...

i agree, we need more people like you. it really doesn't worth the extra damage to get few extra hp. i live in rosemead and i know what you mean. few of my friends choose to go catless and i am kind of against it. hopefully i can influence them enough to put on a cat. saving the environment starts with one person at a time, if everyone thinks that their effort is not enough, no one is going to do it. it starts with someone somewhere.

[hotshot2101]

hopefully i can influence them enough to put on a cat. saving the environment starts with one person at a time, if everyone thinks that their effort is not enough, no one is going to do it

this is funny you guys think a cat will save the environment but you guys forget how the u.s damaged the environment by dropping the atom bombs on japan or by testing atom bombs in the dessert or how the atomic reactor exploded in chernobyl wich sent a toxic cloud over europe so big that it reached sweden in 3 days, yet your gonna tell me that 1 cat converter is gonna change something thats the equivalent of cutting down half the forest in the whole world and then saying if some one else cuts down one more tree that every one is gonna die,

[Jesse IL]

Guys, no more talk about catalytic converters. If you want one, great. If not, fine. This thread is about development of a turbo kit. Any future posts on that subject will be deleted.

[hotshot2101]

is this kit gonna use a different header then his big boy kit or is it just gonna use same header just different flange??

[Smaay]

its going to be slightly different because of the T25 flange

[Jesse IL]

Also no external wastegate. But I imagine the manifold will be the same basic design with the same-size primaries, just a slightly different collector. Correct?

Did you get the parts?

[Entranced]

Question/Suggestion for Smaay:

I spoke to MWR about their kit and they stated that their kit does not work with a moroso oil pan. Hopefully Smaay's kit will accomodate for this and will let the kit work with the oversized moroso pan. *crosses fingers*

[bt216]

his kit will work with the Moroso Oil pan. Mine does.

[Jesse IL]

Basically look under your engine. The intercooler pipe needs to pass in the space between the engine cradle and the oil pan. The oil pan should be basically flat up against the botom of the motor there.

[h8eternal]

what is the advantage of the moroso oil pan over stock other than its size?

[hotshot2101]

moroso oil pan over stock other than its size

moroso pan is baffeled that way it prevents ur engine from oil starvation when cornering hard wich is a problem that the 2zz face when on the track

[Avendit]

also, due to extra volume you have more oil, oil gets bigger chance to cool before being re used, and my (c2 turbo'd 140) oil is lasting longer now. With the stock oil pan I _had_ to change the oil every 2000 miles - I'm at 2500 now and its still golden :D. A cooler would work too, but I wanted the baffles and the proper oil return bung.

Really its just lots of little improvements that add up to a good idea. There is room for the C2 piping beside the morroso pan.

Avendit

[Jesse IL]

If you aren't road racing or making long high rpm/full throttle pulls, I would actually suggest against an aftermarket oil pan. The oil temp, even with the stock pan take a long time to come up to a safe range. Most people will start beating on the car once the water temp comes up to "normal" on the factory gauge. If you had an oil temp gauge (which most people don't), you would see that the oil can still be down around 120F at that point, no good. It typically takes me 10-15 minutes of light driving to get the oil temp up to operating temp (180F), longer on extremely cold days. The bigger your capacity, the longer this will take.

My oil temp usually sits about 20F higher than my water temp once fully heated up. In short blasts the temp pretty much never budges and only rises above there when stuck in traffic on a hot summer day or on a prolonged high speed pull, which almost never comes about. On very cold evenings where I'm cruising on the highway, I actually struggle to keep oil and water temps in the operating range.

[Punkers7465]

any updates on the kit? :eatpop:

[TRD00CelicaGT]

Internal Waste Gate!

So Hello To Boost Spikes

[Jesse IL]

any updates on the kit?
The fabricator wanted Smaay's race Celica on hand to prototype the kit, but it had suffered a blown head gasket so there has been a delay in getting things going. I believe the motor just got back in Smaay's car last weekend so there should be progress on this soon.
Internal Waste Gate!

So Hello To Boost Spikes
A) Turn off the caps lock
B) You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Every factory-turbocharged car has an internal wastegate and they don't sugger from boost spikes. Step away from the keyboard and go back to reading your Super Street.

[many]

Step away from the keyboard and go back to reading your Super Street. :laugh:

End of October is creeping up....how's the block?

[Jesse IL]

End of October is creeping up....how's the block?
I'm calling David today. He was 50/50 on it being finished last weekend, but sure it would be finished during the week.

The block was actually done but I had a special request, which is causing the delay. The top of the stock block has valve releifs machined into the tops of the cylinders. Boosted actually found during his testing that at high lift, not including those (typical sleeved block) will shroud the valves significantly and decrease flow greatly at high lift. This can help explain why MWR is able to get a later torque peak and hold torque longer on their turbo car (stock block with Mahles). So the guy doing the block was experimenting with some junk blocks trying to figure out how to cut those releifs in there. So once he deveops the g-code to do it, all LR's future blocks will incorporate that feature.

[blueceligts]

Looking forward to seeing the finished product. In regards to the posts about what should all be included in the kit, It should just include the turbo, manifold, downpipe, all piping, intercooler and all necessary clamps and brackets.

That way we can choose our own fuel management, BOV, injectors to go with our own goals. Probably will save money that way by shopping around, including it in a kit just means higher cost for us buyers.

[Entranced]

all LR's future blocks will incorporate that feature.

never thought about that before, but it definatly makes sense!

[Boosted2.0]

never thought about that before, but it definatly makes sense!

Yup. Thats the beauty of having a flow bench - you can figure these things out

[MastaBman]

lol. sounds ironic, huh?

but really, I'm not a tree hugger, a hippie, or even a liberal. everyone who is concerned about the environment is not a tree hugger, which is one extreme. people who go catless are the other extreme. there's a huge spectrum in between. if we were all saints and if the environment were the most important thing to us, we'd all give up our gas guzzlers and drive electric cars or bicycles, etc.

I like to mod my car, but I don't think it's worth going catless only to gain a few hp, causing 1000 times more damage to the environment than someone who has their cat. My modded car as it is now emits fewer than the max number of pollutants allowed during a CA smog test. Even when I turbo, I plan to stay within allowable polluting levels by keeping my cat.

Air quality in the L.A. area used to be very bad many years ago, but improved dramatically with the introduction of more stringent emissions requirements. However, L.A. air quality is still not that great and the 30 million people who live in the greater Los Angeles area are several more times as likely to die from lung cancer and suffer respiratory problems than the average American. If just a few percent of SoCal drivers were to go catless or drive around with old, defective cats, those 30 million would be so much worse off.

I'm reminded of the time when I was at Disneyland and I was horrified to see smokers smoking in the smoking only area WITH their children. They had to watch their kids, right? I even saw a few in strollers. Leaving them alone would be irresponsible, right? The poor kids had no choice but to inhale all that second-hand smoke. Absolutely disgusting. And so I'm going to end with an analogy. Someone who drives around in their car without a cat is like that person who smokes in front of non-smokers in a public place. They don't give a damn about others.


I'm going to take off my catalytic converter just because I read this.

[Celicahzn]

can you post up vids when its running jesse

[Jesse IL]

can you post up vids when its running jesse
You're going to be waiting some time for this. Smaay currently is building up the prototype and it shouldn't be too long before we start to see some parts come from this. Unfortunately this never made it in during my 2008 project car season and the Celica will actually be mostly stored during the winter and will also be running N/A for a while as I break in a new block.

[Jesse IL]

Bump for Jeff. This was the existing thread anyways. Please keep transmission talk out of here. There's an existing thread for that as well.

[WHITEKNIGHT2000]

You guys should put a whole package together...Built Motor, Trans, Turbo. I think that will be the best way for people who have no idea what they are doing or buying to have a car with power, all they would have to do is put gas into and drive.

[bt216]

You guys should put a whole package together...Built Motor, Trans, Turbo. I think that will be the best way for people who have no idea what they are doing or buying to have a car with power, all they would have to do is put gas into and drive. thats like a $35k+ package. most people with that kind of cash to spend will buy something else.

[WHITEKNIGHT2000]

But, for example people like you already have spent that much, in smaller sums to add up to that number but, some people here might have a rich daddy. Why would it be that much money?

Built 2zz 10K
Smaay little boy $4000??
Trans with LSD 2500??

I had it summed up to like 15K-20K including tune depending on mods.

[bt216]

^anything is possible of course. find that person and send him Jeff's info.

[Entranced]

MWR sold their red car for a little under 20k I believe.. and it was just that. I doubt you could get very much profit out of the whole ordeal.

[Smaay]

ill never sell my car cause ill never get what i put in it. $hit i cant even sell a clean stock car with a new tranny and engine.

Once again i should have pics of the kit up by friday and Jesse's kit out.

[Celicahzn]

You're going to be waiting some time for this. Smaay currently is building up the prototype and it shouldn't be too long before we start to see some parts come from this. Unfortunately this never made it in during my 2008 project car season and the Celica will actually be mostly stored during the winter and will also be running N/A for a while as I break in a new block.

thats fine mine has been down for a few months now and damn snow is keeping me out of the garage. cold metal parts:AF:

[Jesse IL]

You guys should put a whole package together...Built Motor, Trans, Turbo.
The whole idea with a "little boy" kit is to not have to go to an MR2 trans. This is supposed to be a moderate hp package with a smaller, quick-spooling turbo.
Once again i should have pics of the kit up by friday and Jesse's kit out.
At this point I want everything shipped to Dave. I'm going to have a bunch of stuff coated at Polydyn. At this point I believe we're looking at the turbo, manifold, downpipe, water lines, first IC pipe off the turbo and the pipe I sent you. I believe everything else you're going to hold onto until I determine what I want you to do with it.

One thing we never really discussed was the intake for the turbo. On your car and my existing setup, the filter it attached directly to the turbo. On this setup, since the turbo is smaller, I was hoping to have some sort of intake pipe that would place the filter over behind the transmission to get cooler air. This pipe would also have a nipple on it where you could route the PCV hose to. On the XS kit, you have that long odd hose that you stick into the air filter.

If none of that makes any sense to you or was totally not in your plans, don't sweat it. Turbo XS is right by me and I'm sure I can get it made over there. I was planning on using them to fab my exhaust.

[WHITEKNIGHT2000]

The whole idea with a "little boy" kit is to not have to go to an MR2 trans. This is supposed to be a moderate hp package with a smaller, quick-spooling turbo.



So If I buy a new short block, mahle pistons,all mwr bearings, arp, stage 2 head with upgraded springs, and a little boy, my trans will hold up?? HOw much power can a little boy put down to the wheels?

[bt216]

ill never sell my car cause ill never get what i put in it.
+1

[Jesse IL]

HOw much power can a little boy put down to the wheels?
Seeing as this is a development thread, shall I call Nostradamus to prognosticate this for you?

[WHITEKNIGHT2000]

Or you can post a educated guess??

[Jesse IL]

Hint: it's in the very first post in this thread.

[Entranced]

a 48 trim GT2871R, Garrett P/N 743347-1 and should be good for the 320-370 whp range depending on boost and engine build.

The beauty of using this turbo is that it is directly interchangeable with two other turbos, depending on your power goals. The kit would also be available with:

GT2860RS, Garrett P/N 739548-1, good for 270-330 whp depending on boost and engine build

GT2871R, 56 trim, Garrett P/N 743344-2, good for 375-450 whp depending on boost and engine build.


:D lol

[WHITEKNIGHT2000]

Good point.....I should read more. LOL

[Smaay]

So If I buy a new short block, mahle pistons,all mwr bearings, arp, stage 2 head with upgraded springs, and a little boy, my trans will hold up??

yes it should. im going to guess that its in the 400HP range that the tranny starts to shell itself

[Jesse IL]

I expect to have roughly three fully tuned maps for this setup. The first will be a 8-9 psi map for engines with stock pistons. I say 8-9 because if my previous turbo is any indication, that is the least boost I can get the thing to run. Second map would be 12-13 psi which is where i expect the stock fuel system to reach its limits. Final map would be 16-17 psi with a return system.

[WHITEKNIGHT2000]

Looks like you guys are going to perfect this and fix all the bugs by the time I buy anything.

[Entranced]

Jesse, will that work with each different turbo or just the one your using?

[Jesse IL]

It should work with any of the turbos since it is all airflow related.

[hotshot2101]

[quote=Jesse IL;4557508]It should work with any of the turbos since it is all airflow related.
how much power you expect to make on a gts with 8-9 psi?

[Dan-E 01 GT-S]

:d

[hotshot2101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smaay
ill never sell my car cause ill never get what i put in it.

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smaay
ill never sell my car cause ill never get what i put in it.

+1
+1

hows the little boy kit comming along hey jesse how much more power do u think will be able to make on a turbo car running at 8-9 psi with stock pitons and dd's intake manifold cuz i know without it most cars run 260-280 whp on good tune

[Jesse IL]

Just talked to Smaay on Monday. We needed to decide on the fittings for the water cooling circuit for the turbo. He should be ordering those up as we speak and bending up the lines for that. The manifold, downpipe and intercooler setup are all finished. once he finishes the water lines, most of the stuff is going to Boosted2.0 to be ceramic coated by Polydyn.

I think with the DD manifold, you could easily see 300 whp on a GT2860RS, which is the turbo I'd recommend for any car on stock internals.

[Entranced]

Wouldn't that be pushing the limits of the stock pistons at that power level?

[Smaay]

yes i think it would be. i dont care if its possible and has been done, thats alot of pressure and things will give out.

[Jesse IL]

You would need to make absolutely sure your engine was knock-free. I'd highly suggest running a J&S Safeguard if you're going to start pushing 300 whp on the stock pistons.

[trd_gts]

Whats the difference between the GT2860RS and the GT28RS which comes with most turbo kits?

[Jesse IL]

Whats the difference between the GT2860RS and the GT28RS which comes with most turbo kits?
Nothing other than the fact that Garrett stopped using that nomenclature a few years ago. When Garrett first introduced the GT line of turbos, it was a very limited line and only consisted of a few turbos. When they started adding to the line, some of the names (GT30 for instance) started describing a number of different turbos. As another example, the GT28R and GT28RS are not even similar turbos, even though the names would imply that they are. They are now called GT2854R and GT2860RS. The second two digits tell you the size of the compressor in mm.

Technically, even the name GT2860RS describes more than one turbo. It is available with a 0.64 and 0.86 A/R turbine housing. The 0.86 is what everyone uses for 2ZZ's.

[hotshot2101]

hey jesse do u think you will have a base map ready by end of march? cuz thats when im planning to install my turbo and put it on dyno i just need a base map to work with

[Jesse IL]

hey jesse do u think you will have a base map ready by end of march? cuz thats when im planning to install my turbo and put it on dyno i just need a base map to work with
Well it depends. I already have a base map per se. It's the current turbo map from my car, but it hasn't seen any revisions since 2007 and there's quite a bit I've learned since then. It's tuned around a 3" intake, 630cc MWR injectors and a 255 lph fuel pump. So if you have that intake and fuel setup, my current map would work as a good starting point for you. If you have the 3" intake but not that fuel setup, it could still work, but if you don't have a 3" intake, none of these maps are going to do squat for you.

[hotshot2101]

i just oderded 255lph and i have mwr 630 injectors and i have the hass turbo kit with the gt28rs turbo and has manifold, are you talking about 3 inch piping ie turbo intercooler engine or just the intake before turbo?

[Jesse IL]

Just the part where the MAFS is.

[Entranced]

as far as turbo'd engine's go, would it be better to have a 2.5" charge pipe for reduced lag purposes, or would you want to go with a 3" for more airflow. I ask since the air is being pushed through not sucked through like a n/a application

[black2000gts]

any word on an estimate for the cost of the kit?

[Smaay]

the kit is going to cost in the 3000 range. thats with no management. i have 2 other projects that i need to finish. i just dont have enough time for anything

[black2000gts]

That's cool. I didn't intend to rush or anything. I was just looking for a ball park figure. Good luck with all the stuff you're working on.

[Entranced]

any updates?

[bt216]

any updates?

he's building us E153's :)

[Jesse IL]

any updates?
The fittings for the water circuit for the turbo have apparently dragged this down for the last two months. The first thing that happened is that he ordered in fittings for the wrong series of turbo (old-style Garrett turbos). Now's some local supplier has been sitting on a backorder for a few weeks. The local supplier was chosen to save a few dollars, but things should be moving forward as of today. Let's just say it's a good thing that I'm extremely patient and that it's the winter.

[Smaay]

i love you jesse xoxoxoxoxox

[blinding-gts]

Let's just say it's a good thing that I'm extremely patient and that it's the winter.

Don't feel too bad. I've had mine sitting in the crate since I bought my new home. :D

[bt216]

Don't feel too bad. I've had mine sitting in the crate since I bought my new home.

:werd: my car has been down since september :(

[gte]

So for ~3,000 this includes

intercooler
intercooler piping
blow off valve
turbo
exhaust manifold
downpipe
air inlet piping/air filter
associated oil feed and return lines

Am I missing anything?

[carboncelicagt]

3k is a fair price.. and i agree that fuel management should come separate. Everyones power goals are different. For me gts injectors and emanage blue have worked good for 4 years with a turbo. Personally I just like to get to work fast. I would even go as far as to say that the bov didnt have to be included either. I don't know anyone that kept the original bov in the c2 kit. I gave mine to the guy with the DA kit in jersey (His was plastic) and bouht the R2D2.

[Jesse IL]

Brief update.

Smaay is finished with everything and it should be on it's way over to Boosted to have the manifold, downpipe and turbine housing ceramic coated. He snapped some shots before sending it out.

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/DSC03413.JPG

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/DSC03415.JPG

Downpipe was left unfinished, which is why it looks like it does.

I've finally sorted the issues with my new motor (well new block). I retorqued the cylinder head this weekend and found that I had the intake cam a tooth off, which is why I was getting a bunch of misfire codes. But it's back together now and running great with no codes. Checked compression while I was at it and got:

225 - 225 - 225 - 235

Now that I got rid of the codes, I can go get it inspected and get the registration current on it, so I can legally drive the car. The engine only has about 30 miles on it so it needs to be broken in, but I'm hoping to install the turbo sometime in April.

[Entranced]

:thumbup: :popcorn: Hopefully soon i'll be following in your footsteps for my own smaay kit :)

[blacktsport]

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/DSC03415.JPG



That's so sexy! I wish i had the money/time/knowledge to be doing something similar :eek:

Good luck (not that you need it) with the install dude. Can't wait for some vids when it's done

[Celicahzn]

3k is a fair price.. and i agree that fuel management should come separate. Everyones power goals are different. For me gts injectors and emanage blue have worked good for 4 years with a turbo. Personally I just like to get to work fast. I would even go as far as to say that the bov didnt have to be included either. I don't know anyone that kept the original bov in the c2 kit. I gave mine to the guy with the DA kit in jersey (His was plastic) and bouht the R2D2.


Yea agree with you but I think it is better than what I thought. I thought it was going to be the same price as the big boy kit. even better more affordable.

[youngxlos]

Jesse if you need a hand, please call me.
i would love to and be honored to work on your car =)

[many]

225 - 225 - 225 - 235
damn! That's a brand new short block?
did you change the pistons?

[Jesse IL]

^^^

It's 10:1 pistons, Manny. I've gotten numbers significantly higher on my original engine with the 11.5:1's.

[many]

Wow that's really good for a 10:1!
I have 230/235 with my 12.3:1... I'm impressed.
Did you shave the head? or deck the block?
Yes, on older engines the carbon buildup is going to net bigger number....but on a new block it's really good.

[Jesse IL]

Just out of curiosity, I went and dug up an old thread from when I was trying to diagnose problems with the old MWR block. I took some compression readings before the head gasket finally gave up the fight on the dropped sleeves. Same pistons, same head, totally different block:

235 - 220 - 220 - 230

I found another old thread from back on my original motor:

265 - 255 - 245 - 225 (man that thing was f'ed!)

Based on that, my compression seems to be right on if you do the math. I suppose i could be performing the test differently than you are? I crank the motor with all the plugs out, throttle on the floor and continue cranking until the needle on the compression gauge stops moving.

[many]

Wait ...pedal to the floor?!
I never touched the pedal......
Do you think the longer duration of the stage 3 cams have a direct impact on compression?
Damn... I need to redo my compression check....

[SuperDave]

Do you think the longer duration of the stage 3 cams have a direct impact on compression?

Inlet Valve Closing Point
Inlet valves do not close at BDC but well after this, when the piston is already part of the way up the bore. This is done to help trap more air when the engine is turning at normal running speeds. There is not enough time at running speed for the air already drawn into the cylinder to turn round and go back out of the inlet valve before it shuts so more air gets trapped than if the valve closed at BDC. At cranking speed of only a few hundred RPMs though, everything is happening very slowly in comparison. There is plenty of time for air drawn in at BDC to get pushed back out of the valve before it shuts. The static compression ratio is therefore not a good measure of how much air is actually being trapped and compressed. The longer the cam duration and therefore the later after BDC the inlet valve closes the less air gets trapped at cranking speed. For a given compression ratio we can therefore expect engines with race or rally cams to generate lower cranking pressures than engines with road cams. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/comp.htm

[Jesse IL]

No pedal to the floor will give you low readings typically.

[Entranced]

the theory behind it is that if your throttle is closed, your not giving the engine it's ability to breathe as much air in as possible with the throttle plate shut. Opening it lets all the possible air go into the cylinder that you are checking. It nets a higher number because of the increase in airflow.

[many]

Jesse, I was thinking about it today....are you sure your gauge is good?
Stock brand new engines have about 205-210 psi...I understand the readings are lower on your new block with lower compression, hence the difference...which makes sense.
But if it's off, it might explain the really high numbers...I know carbon buildup is going to yield higher numbers....but your new block is way up there too and that with a lower compression.
I don't mind really and I'm happy if you have such big numbers ....the engine will be even more powerfull....I'm just really curious.

[Jesse IL]

I've used two different gauges on my car, although they were probably both the same brand. Both gauges gave extremely similar results.

The actual numbers mean very little. What you're mainly looking for is do the numbers fall in the range where you want them to be and are the readings consistent from cylinder to cylinder?

You keep saying my numbers are extremely high but I got cylinder readings as high as 265 on a stock engine. If you assume that number to be correct, dropping to 10:1 compression would give you 230, which is right around where I'm at.

[many]

What gauge are you using?

[Smaay]

wow that is high, best i have ever seen is 220

[Jesse IL]

I use the one they sell at Sears. Like I said, I never pay attention to the raw numbers, I just make sure that they're consistent and not stupidly low. Keep in mind that a compression gauge is mostly used to diagnose a bad cylinder or a totally f'ed engine, which will show up as a single low cylinder or a massively low reading.

[youngxlos]

off topic, did you ever get the car running correct without the cel with the parts i let you borrow??? just wondering how your car is coming along

[Jesse IL]

Right now I've been working on the suspension, regreasing everything with the proper urethane grease. Then I need to get the car aligned. I have not had a chance to change out the OCV yet. I'm going to try and do that this weekend.

Just talked to Boosted tonight. All the parts are going over to the fabricator tomorrow for work on the downpipe. Once that's done, it all goes to Polydyn for coating.

[youngxlos]

nice! cant wait till you have it running. i wanna feel the boost!!!!!!!!

[Dan-E 01 GT-S]

:monkey:

[Boosted2.0]

its all done and coated - I imagine I'll ship it back this week.

[Dan-E 01 GT-S]

wow! any pics?!!

[Boosted2.0]

Nope. I can take some if Jesse wants, all I have is the manifold, turbo and DP though.

Its actually a new color too called Titanium. They added a Boron resin to the old coating mix that provides thermal stability to 3600F now, and it apparently turned the gold to grey :)

[Jesse IL]

Sure, take some pics. It's probably more than I'll ever do :laugh:

I should take a pic of the growing pile of parts on my floor waiting for this install.

[Dan-E 01 GT-S]

dang that color sounds kol!
thx for the follow up!

[Entranced]

...I want a growing pile of parts :sadpace:

[Jesse IL]

Parts are all back at my house. Install hopefully this weekend. Manifold and downpipe up the the flex section were made by Smaay's fabricator. The flex section, sensor ports, v-band flange and stub section were all done by Boosted's fabricator. The manifold, downpipe and turbine housing were all boron nitride coated by Polydyn. Water cooling lines for the turbo were made by Smaay.

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-3.jpg

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-4.jpg

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-5.jpg

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-6.jpg

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-7.jpg

I'm hoping to install everything this weekend, depending on a friend's schedule. The remainder of the exhaust will be fabricated in July by TurboXS. That will be comprised of a Random 3" metal-core catalytic converter, a 3" Vibrant resonator in the stock location and a Vibrant Ultra Quiet resonator in the back with a Vibrant tip.

[bt216]

nice :thumbup: who did the coating?

[bman365]

Everything looks damn nice. Are those welds going to be smoothed inside the manifold?

[bt216]

Are those welds going to be smoothed inside the manifold?
yeah he coated it and now he is going to grind it :rolleyes:

[bman365]

Didn't know the inside was coated.

And he mentioned who coated it btw.

[bt216]

polydyn is the type of coating. The entire manifold is coated inside and out, you can see how it is all the same color.

People dont usually gring the welds on turbo manifolds because of the amount of pressure, it needs to be as stong as possible. Mine looks identical.

[Jesse IL]

Yeah, Smaay's guy doesn't do the prettiest work, but it's known to be strong. I thought the same thing when I got it, then I figured it might not have been the best idea to grind away on welds. That is where most turbo manifolds typically fail.

[Zettie]

Manifold looks great :) I agree about not grinding on the welds, but my gut feeling is that you could probably sharpen it some where the tubes merge in the collector... My Alltrac manifold looked about the same before I knife-edged it and it cut spool time "drastically" (around 4-500rpm) - turbulence induced interference between the exhaust pulses isnt good for spool...

[Entranced]

:applaud:

[Jesse IL]

Manifold looks great I agree about not grinding on the welds, but my gut feeling is that you could probably sharpen it some where the tubes merge in the collector... My Alltrac manifold looked about the same before I knife-edged it and it cut spool time "drastically" (around 4-500rpm) - turbulence induced interference between the exhaust pulses isnt good for spool...
There's no way I'm grinding it now that it's coated. It is what it is...I've seen some pretty ugly manifolds on Celicas work pretty well. The manifolds MWR was using for a long time were really ugly.

To be totally honest, I'm not overjoyed about the quality of the fabrication, but when you want to do a turbocharged Celica, your options are extremely limited. Were that snazzy new MWR manifold out at the time i was putting this together, I may have inquired about having them make a variant that would work with my turbo. But hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure the cost for that setup would have been far more than what I paid Smaay. I'm not looking to squeeze every last hp out of the motor and I'm sure the results will be more than acceptable for me.

[blinding-gts]

As long as it works and doesn't give you problems it's fine. No one is going to be looking behind the engine or under the car to see if the welds are done nicely anyhow. Personally, I think it looks fine and can't wait to see the results once you have it all put in. When do you expect to have everything pieced all together?

[youngxlos]

the parts look great Jesse, i don't think i am doing anything this weekend, if you need a extra hand let me know

[Jesse IL]

When do you expect to have everything pieced all together?
I'm hoping to have everything installed this weekend. But I don't have an appointment to get the exhaust fabricated until July 18th. So until then it's going to be loud as fvck!
the parts look great Jesse, i don't think i am doing anything this weekend, if you need a extra hand let me know
I may take you up on this. You have a place where we can do a turbo install without anyone hassling us? I could also return your midpipe to you.

[blinding-gts]

I'm hoping to have everything installed this weekend. But I don't have an appointment to get the exhaust fabricated until July 18th. So until then it's going to be loud as fvck!

Hahaha. I test drove mine around without the cat for a day or so.. sounded like a tractor. :thumbup:
I had the shop put in a 3" turbular high flow resonator which pretty much keeps the car mute until I rev it high now.

[Boosted2.0]

Manifold looks great :) I agree about not grinding on the welds, but my gut feeling is that you could probably sharpen it some where the tubes merge in the collector... My Alltrac manifold looked about the same before I knife-edged it and it cut spool time "drastically" (around 4-500rpm) - turbulence induced interference between the exhaust pulses isnt good for spool...

Hard as it is to believe, it has been cleaned up. I couldn't take away more without weakening the welds. It also worked the inlets and massages a couple places in the runner where there was some pipe intrusion into the flow. But you can only do so much without risking weakenign it, which is the last thing we want to do here - Jesse already knows the joys of manifold crackage.

[Boosted2.0]

I have to say, the "Titanium" color on the new boron coating is pretty frigging nice. The coating was actually developed for use in industrial turbines, hence the rediculously high 3600F thermal stability.

[Jesse IL]

just spoke with my friend and verified install this Saturday :thumbup:

[Zettie]

Hard as it is to believe, it has been cleaned up. I couldn't take away more without weakening the welds. It also worked the inlets and massages a couple places in the runner where there was some pipe intrusion into the flow. But you can only do so much without risking weakenign it, which is the last thing we want to do here - Jesse already knows the joys of manifold crackage.Nah, its not hard to believe, it didnt exactly look fresh from the welders, from the looks of it I just thought there were more material to work with. Inlets look clean except for the small notch over at the leftmost cylinder (on the piccie) - I have not much experience with the T23's yet - is the stock gasket strong enough for that not to post a leakage problem somewhere down the line?

Anyway - top notch work (as allways) :)

[Dan-E 01 GT-S]

:thumbup:

[Boosted2.0]

Nah, its not hard to believe, it didnt exactly look fresh from the welders, from the looks of it I just thought there were more material to work with. Inlets look clean except for the small notch over at the leftmost cylinder (on the piccie) - I have not much experience with the T23's yet - is the stock gasket strong enough for that not to post a leakage problem somewhere down the line?

Anyway - top notch work (as allways) :)

Yeah its a MLS gasket it should be fine. That notch was there from Stafford and I didn't feel like welding in filler material just to have to mill it and port it out all over again.

[Jesse IL]

That notch was there from Stafford and I didn't feel like welding in filler material just to have to mill it and port it out all over again.
As long as it seals, I don't really care.

[Jesse IL]

Well it's on. What a bite in the ass that was. All the real issues were in getting the manifold, turbo and downpipe in there. First problem was, we were trying to install the manifold and it just wouldn't slide onto the studs. Then we realized that only the outside two holes were large enough and the three center ones were too small. So off it came and out came the drill.

We installed the manifold, then the turbo and got everything clocked right. Then we realized that we couldn't tighten up all the CHRA bolts with the turbo installed. So we unbolted the manifold (with the turbo still attached) and managed to get that done. Then we realized that we couldn't get the downpipe on with the manifold and turbo installed. Off came the manifold again, plus all the studs to give us maneuvering room. Finally we got everything installed and tightened down.

The sensor locations ended up being a bit downstream from the stock location, so they required a little "floor modification" with a sledge hammer to fit :chuckles: Fired the car up and it runs pretty well. Running with the boost controller off so I'm only getting around 7 psi. Fueling is also rich and timing is retarded, so it isn't too fast yet. But the fvcker is LOUD! It's just an open downpipe that exits right under the seats. It's quite the assault on the senses. At this point, the car s probably going to mostly sit for the next four weeks until my appointment to get the rest of the exhaust made. I have a couple small things to tinker around with like getting some thermal sleeve on the power steering line and messing around with the tune a bit.

[jlitman]

^^^ Sounds good! Looking forward to further details as it comes together :thumbup:

How much were you planning to make with this set up? Low to mid 300's?

[TUMASGTS]

Thats great! keep us posted with your updates! Jesse what thermal sleeves are you going to get for your power steering lines as i need to get for myself also!

[Jesse IL]

How much were you planning to make with this set up? Low to mid 300's?
Around 350, once I get the boost and timing up. Motor still has only around 1000 miles on it, too.

Oh yeah, two more issues I need to address:

1. Standard K&N cone wouldn't fit really well on the turbo. We needed to scrunch it up and it still barely fit. I'm going to need to get one of the ones with the offset mount and possibly a shorter overall length.

2. The water lines Smaay made didn't fit at all, so the turbo currently has no water cooling. He made them with the CHRA clocked in a way that wouldn't work in reality (the oil inlet coming out right under the manifold). I need to come up with a new solution for water cooling.
Jesse what thermal sleeves are you going to get
The Thermo-Tec ones I told you about. I just pulled them off my old setup (I had them on the water lines).

[TUMASGTS]

are there any specific sized or are they just one size? Thanks!

[Jesse IL]

No idea. Bought it years ago. Just look through their catalog and find something that looks like it will work.

[blinding-gts]

But the fvcker is LOUD! It's just an open downpipe that exits right under the seats. It's quite the assault on the senses.
Didn't I say it'd be like a tractor? Bet your seats are keeping warm underneath. :chuckles:

[Smaay]

2. The water lines Smaay made didn't fit at all, so the turbo currently has no water cooling. He made them with the CHRA clocked in a way that wouldn't work in reality (the oil inlet coming out right under the manifold). I need to come up with a new solution for water cooling.

they should have fit. they were made on an engine stand. are you sure you didnt mix them up

[Jesse IL]

they should have fit. they were made on an engine stand. are you sure you didnt mix them up
We went back and looked at the pictures you sent me. I understand you made them on a stand, but you had no oil inlet in place when you made them. You appear to have made them with the oil fittings straight up and down and the water fittings level on the sides. In order for them to fit, the center section would have to be clocked in a way that the oil inlet would be right under the manifold, making it impossible to fit a line to it. The oil inlet needs to be clocked somewhat back towards the firewall to clear the manifold. Then the oil drain is on an angle and the hose passes right between the axle and the block.

We could have still fit the one on the firewall side, but the motor side one hit the manifold.

[youngxlos]

damn sorry i never reply Jesse, but it looks like you got that bad boy in, sucks about the issues with the line. i wish i knew what you guys were talking about =(

[Jesse IL]

Order placed to ATP this morning for a few fittings and some custom braided lines. So the water fix is in the works. Now I need to get a peek behind the motor and guesstimate how much room I have for a filter.

[Celica Drift 27]

glad to see some substancial progress. great job!

[Entranced]

:worthless

[Jesse IL]

^^^

Yeah you're going to be disappointed. I forgot to bring the battery for the camera when working on the install. I could kind of aim it down behind the motor but that won't really show much. The underhood shot basically looks like I have a CAI in there. But I may actually produce a video of the insane dB levels this evening.

[blinding-gts]

Then the oil drain is on an angle and the hose passes right between the axle and the block.
You managed to get it to pass between? I have mine passing around the axle and into the oil pan. The turbo must be clocked pretty far back?

Were the water lines designed to be connected the the TB coolant line or the heater core return line?

[Jesse IL]

You managed to get it to pass between? I have mine passing around the axle and into the oil pan. The turbo must be clocked pretty far back?
Yeah, there isn't a ton of clearance, but it's enough. My old setup was like yours. With this manifold, if you clock the CHRA straight up and down, the oil feed comes out right under the manifold. I think it's because the turbine is to the passenger side, so most of the scroll is under the manifold instead of away from it.
Were the water lines designed to be connected the the TB coolant line or the heater core return line?
The TB lines.

[youngxlos]

please take vids

[T3HKMAN]

I would catch this thread all late would've been glad to lend a hand. Jesse if you don't mind letting people have an upclose look please let me know.

[Jesse IL]

Alright here's the pics:

Obligatory not cleaned up underhood pic:

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-10.jpg

Notice the scrunched up filter and oil line having to be angled towards the firewall to clear the manifold:

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-11.jpg

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-12.jpg

I thought this one would be instructive because it shows my entire vacuum routing and sensor setup. Here's what you're looking at:

1. The tiny K&N filter you see is connected to a line coming off the CCV VSV. This is the one that you would hook up to a nipple somewhere on your CAI.

2. The EVAP VSV is hooked up almost as normal, with the standard line coming in from the charcoal can in the back. You can see a black skinny line coming off the intake manifold port and running around behind the TB then down to the VSV. What you can't see behind the coupler is a Purolator PCV valve that I'm using as a one-way valve. This allows the EVAP to purge like normal but not pressurize the system under boost.

3. The blue silicone hose runs the blow-off valve.

4. The little brass 90 degree fitting you see below the blue plug on the intake manifold is an NPT fitting that I drilled and tapped into the manifold. A nylon hardline comes off of there to run the boost gauge and boost controller. The blue plug was my first hole I drilled. the fitting interfered with the throttle bellcrank there. Oops.

5. The red anodized thing you see in the radiator hose with the brass fitting in it is where I pull my water temperature from.

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-13.jpg

here is my current "exhaust" :laugh:

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-14.jpg

[youngxlos]

edit, i refresh and saw all the nice pix.
looks nice Jesse

[Jesse IL]

Vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlSCWETt_JY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SdDUrwoA3Y

The part where you see my friend's crotch for a few seconds is where he became worried for his life :laugh:

[Smaay]

sounds awesome! how the spool response?

[celica_2nr]

beatiful:bowdown:

[Ch33z]

very nice...can i see some pics of the pipe routing?

[Jesse IL]

sounds awesome! how the spool response?
Its pretty good, but the timing is very retarded right now so it could be better.

[Entranced]

:headbang: good stuff... I want one :(

[03GTSTRD]

Very nice man!

[Smaay]

I want to :jerkoff: all over this engine bay
http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/GT2871R-10.jpg

[many]

Good job! It sounds mean and nuts at the same time!

[youngxlos]

Jesse if you still get check engine lights because of the stupid cam thing, here is a tread Many made about the sprocket or whatever.
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=299052
btw the car sounds nuts!

[Jesse IL]

Jesse if you still get check engine lights because of the stupid cam thing
Power FC = no CEL. I'll probably check out the VVT sprocket eventually.

[jlitman]

Looks like fun! What RPM does the boost really kick in?

Wouldn't retarded timing help spool by heating up the EGT's, or no, only to a point?

Was the crotch shot to see if he wet himself when the turbo kicked in? :D

[Jesse IL]

Looks like fun! What RPM does the boost really kick in?

Not really sure. For one I haven't been paying attention (the insane dB level is distracting) and for two my tachometer is off.
Wouldn't retarded timing help spool by heating up the EGT's?t
No

[Smaay]

Wouldn't retarded timing help spool by heating up the EGT's,

why not? thats how 2 steps work. they retard the hell out of your timing and get the turbo spooling.

[Boosted2.0]

why not? thats how 2 steps work. they retard the hell out of your timing and get the turbo spooling.

There is a big difference between retarded timing like Jesse has and massively retarded to the point to where its backfiring into the exhaust, which is what happens with a 2 step.

[blinding-gts]

There is a big difference between retarded timing like Jesse has and massively retarded to the point to where its backfiring into the exhaust, which is what happens with a 2 step.

I thought backfire is bad for turbos. Isn't it easier to control the spool up by adjusting the VVT settings?

[Jesse IL]

I thought backfire is bad for turbos.
It is. Anti-lag is HORRIBLE for turbochargers. Unless you're running a racecar, you shouldn't use it.

[Celicasaur]

Nice!

Any chance of tacho vids? :o:

[youngxlos]

It is. Anti-lag is HORRIBLE for turbochargers. Unless you're running a racecar, you shouldn't use it.
yeah its a cool thing to have if you like destroying your turbos.

[Celicasaur]

yeah its a cool thing to have if you like that cool popping/banging sound it gives when you're about to launch off the lights

fixed that for you :gap:

[Entranced]

:popcorn: how goes it Jesse? How do you like it now that you've had the chanse to drive around and play with it for a while?

[Celicasaur]

:stupid:

[Jesse IL]

I actually haven't driven the car since I posted that video. It's too loud. The valve cover is currently off (I need to install some thermal sleeve on the power steering line this weekend). I was supposed to take the car into Turbo XS tomorrow to get the rest of the exhaust made, but the guy canceled on me yesterday, via email.

If any of you ever get the chance to work with Turbo XS, don't. It is the most low-class, amateur operation I've ever dealt with. When you go by their shop, mysteriously there's absolutely nothing going on. Yet they're "totally booked up". Yeah, surfing the internet. I had been trying to schedule a time to get this exhaust made since early May. The concept of scheduling people was pretty much beyond them. I finally had to show up early in June and I was able to get on the calendar for this weekend by physically standing in front of the guy while he looked at his calendar. Then he tries to back out via email. Of course I call him immediately, then about half an hour later he calls me back, not realizing who it was.

So I get out of the guy that not only is he bumping me from this weekend, he's bumping me ENTIRELY. I suggest that he simply bump the next person and fit me in ASAP and he responds with, "I can't do that." I respond with, "What do you mean you can't do that? You're doing that to me right now?" So I proceeded to bitch the guy out for several minutes. I actually felt semi bad, because the reason he was canceling on me was some claimed "family emergency" that was causing him to leave town unexpectedly. But **** him, if he wants to call himself a professional and treat me with about the same integrity as a first grader, he's going to get a piece of my mind.

So I talked to a different shop today and have an appointment Monday morning for them to estimate the exhaust job. If that goes well, it looks like the exhaust could hopefully be made next Thursday.

Moral of the story: never do business with Turbo XS.

[TRlPPlN]

^^^ yikes. arent they the same company that had the first turbo kit out for the celica as well? if so, i guess like product like company.

[Celicasaur]

Moral of the story: never do business with Turbo XS.

Are they the same company who have that big "X-S" in blue on loads of aftermarket intercoolers I see on various cars? That kind of service sounds shambolic...

I hate bad service, whether it from 'tuners' feeding me bs or even when I'm getting my chicken and I don't get a smile or a 'sir'... :marky:

[Jesse IL]

yikes. arent they the same company that had the first turbo kit out for the celica as well?
No, that's XS Engineering. Parts of my turbo kit are an XS kit. The issue with them was always the manifolds.
Are they the same company who have that big "X-S" in blue on loads of aftermarket intercoolers I see on various cars? That kind of service sounds shambolic...
Yes, that's them. They don't make any of that in-house. It's basically all mass produced in China and they just repackage and ship it. Their actual shop is a joke. The reason it took me so long to get on their schedule is that the guy insisted on scheduling an entire week to simply weld up some piping where I've already sourced the cat, resonators and tip. The shop I'm taking the car to on Monday expects to turn it around the same day I bring it in. That's not unreasonable. This job is what a muffler shop does in a few hours. The only reason I'm not using a muffler shop to begin with is that I want to make sure everything is made with top notch materials, welding and attention to detail.

The thing about Turbo XS is that all those mass-produced parts keep them in business, so they have little to no motivation to actually do anything in the shop. So they take a week to do three hours of work and spend the rest of the time surfing the internet.

[many]

Dude the bad luck never ends with your car getting modded!!
The only person I remember saying good things about them was Keyshawn...all the rest have had horrible treatment.
I dont trust any shop anymore.....I made a jig for the mid pipe so I can custom build them to match the PPE header and I'm in the procese of making one for the exhaust.

[Jesse IL]

The only person I remember saying good things about them was Keyshawn
XS Engineering /= Turbo XS

[many]

Ooookk .....I thought it was one company:crazy2:

[vvtl-iman]

are you just getting the mid-pipe done or an actual turbo back 3"?

[Jesse IL]

Took the car in for the estimate this morning. Everything looks good. Their Thursday time slot had filled up and I can't take it next week since I'll be on vacation. Appointment is set for two weeks from today.

The guys at the shop were all really interested in my car. None of them had ever seen anything like it or even heard of a Celica with a built motor. The one guy said, "All the ones I see are really slow." I said, "Yeah, you won't come across many turbocharged ones. Almost all of them are slow turds." :laugh:

The shop doing the fab is called Altered Atmosphere.

http://www.alteredatmosphere.com/home/

It was a really nice shop with a bunch of nice cars in there. They were dyno tuning a new GT-R when I was there and one of the guys was working on a twin turbo Z.

[bt216]

nice :thumbup: looks like you found a quality shop.

[Celicasaur]

Almost all of them are slow turds." :laugh:


:laugh: I say that as well :chuckles: (well, i used to, many moons ago, ahem...)

Are you going with a couple of fat resonators to keep the sound level lower, or are you going with a single small muffler box (or two) to make it a lot quieter?

[Entranced]

good stuff! Can't wait to see the finished product after you get the exhaust on and start street tuning the beast

[supracelica32]

just curious if the price has been set on lil boy kit and what all it will consist of?

car sounds sick with no exhaust.

[Jesse IL]

Picked the car up today from Altered Atmosphere. They did an absolutely great job on the exhaust. I brought the camera and then completely forgot to take pictures :laugh:

Car is loud but not insane. Surprisingly not raspy at all. It sounds very much like my friend's old EVO IX with a very open exhaust system did. I'll get some videos and pictures this weekend hopefully.

[bt216]

:thumbup:

[Celicasaur]

Yep yep. Pictures and sound clips please :gap:

Also, some tacho vids too perhaps, even on your street tune? :shrugs:

[kortik]

so are you using GT2871R turbo? and in how many trims GT2871R comes?
I am buying a turbo kit and I wanted to learn a bit more about F/I been reading FAQ thread, now since I was all over N/A research is time to learn about F/I

[Jesse IL]

so are you using GT2871R turbo? and in how many trims GT2871R comes?
Yeah it's a 48 trim compressor and 0.86 A/R turbine housing. There is a 56 trim available in the same housings. There is additionally a 52 trim but that has some special housings and is meant as a drop-in replacement for a Silvia or Skyline.

Right now the car is pretty laggy considering I'm running about 8 psi and very little ignition advance. My friend's EVO X with an exhaust is definitely faster.

[Entranced]

curious to see how laggy it is with the same PSI but with the ignition advanced to where it should be. :wiggle:

[Jesse IL]

The current map is only 14 degrees under load. I may take the car to hockey tonight and upload a new map with 17 degrees advance. I'm sure it can run more than that, but the fueling is rough and i still need to get the wideband dialed in so that it logs correctly.

[TRlPPlN]

everything running good with the car jesse?

[Jesse IL]

Yeah the car runs great. I've been driving it quite a bit but haven't messed with the tuning. I'm having an issue with the tach but more than that, I've been out of town a bunch and the one weekend I was around I was helping a friend move. I'm also trying to finish up a project on a motorcycle so I can sell it, so the car tuning project has been shelved for a while.

[Jesse IL]

Minor update: I had the car out last night doing some logging. I have it running 14 psi boost and the only issue I'm having is some strange knock sensor activity that I'm not convinced is knock, especially considering it was showing up at 8 psi as well.

But the car absolutely rips at 14 psi, even with only 16 degrees total advance. If the tires aren't hot, it can spin them in second gear, even with the LSD. Based on the MAFS voltages, I appear to be moving 25% more air at the torque peak compared with my old setup, which is considerable.

I didn't have enough space to get 3rd gear to redline, but at 6900 rpm I was still only at 71% injector duty, so I'm hoping to be able to push things to 15-16 psi before I run out of injector. But with the apparent knock issue, I think any real testing will have to be held off until I can get my hands on a J&S Safeguard.

[Entranced]

Can you post up some pictures of the log of knock that you don't think is knock? i'm curious to see what it looks like. I still haven't wrapped my head fully around what is fake vs real knock. :gap:

[Celicasaur]

But the car absolutely rips at 14 psi

Damn...Jesse never talks like that...this MUST be fassst :hitit:

Any chance of some tacho vids? :gap:

[youngxlos]

its a nasty lil bugger!
i was so impress when he took me for a ride

[celica_2nr]

its a nasty lil bugger!
:chuckles:

[Jesse IL]

Can you post up some pictures of the log of knock that you don't think is knock? i'm curious to see what it looks like. I still haven't wrapped my head fully around what is fake vs real knock.
Yeah I have to pull some logs off my laptop. I did a 4th gear pull to fuel cut on Sunday night and the knock sensor was going crazy.
Any chance of some tacho vids?
I have no real way to take a video like this. I need that hand for shifting.
its a nasty lil bugger!
i was so impress when he took me for a ride
It's way faster than when I gave you a ride. That was only 8 psi that day.

[Illusive]

overtorqued the knock sensor maybe? anything hitting or rubbing in the engine bay?

[Celicasaur]

Oh yeah...LHD....damn, it must be hard for you guys to shift and drive fast - period :eek:

Fair play Jesse....but then again, youngxlos, when you go in Jesse's car again, make some vids for us!! That way he can drive safely and you can feed us some celica porn :hitit:

[Entranced]

huh? RHD's the wonkey one... unless your a lefty then I guess you could get used to it.

[many]

Just strap the camera on the steering wheel!
For the high knock.....any chance it's piston slap? I know mine knocks like crazy when not fully warmed up!

[Jesse IL]

overtorqued the knock sensor maybe? anything hitting or rubbing in the engine bay?
Definitely not. I was overly anal about torquing things to spec on the motor. This was not the Smaay assembly method :chuckles:
damn, it must be hard for you guys to shift and drive fast - period
I don't get this at all. Most people are left handed. I personally think it's way better to have your strong hand on the shifter.
For the high knock.....any chance it's piston slap?
No, the knock sensor goes crazy as soon as the turbo fully spools up. In reading up on how knock sensors work, it's an element that is designed to resonate at a certain frequency that is unique to the engine. Knock sensors are supposed to be specific to a certain engine and engine configuration. I'm wondering if the turbo isn't resonating at the exact same frequency as the sensor? Graphs will be up shortly.

[Jesse IL]

So here's a chart. You're looking at rpm, MAFS voltage, knock and AFR.

http://users.ameritech.net/diabolus/trubolog-2.gif

I keep getting that knock spike at 4900 rpm, although this time I didn't get one at 4400 (I messed with the VVT settings). Now granted I did get a lean spot there, around ~13.3 but that bit with the very low knock reading is consistent as well and the AFR is still fairly lean. But then up higher, I'm seeing high knock values again and I have an AFR down around 12.3 and still only have 17 degrees of timing. I'm having a hard time believing that most of this knock sensor activity is real? What really gets me is that I distinctly remember the knock warning flashing almost constantly to redline. I purposely set the threshold higher (to 44) but according to that, it should have been flashing for only a short time :confused:

This was my first log of a full throttle, full range pull in these load areas (my old setup didn't move this much air). I'm going to try and bring things down to around 12.0 AFR. I was also not happy to see that the MAFS voltage completely flatlined above 7000 rpm. I'll have to mess around with the VVT settings a bit to see if I can affect that, but it may also be that this turbo is simply out of steam at that pressure ratio (which is still significantly below the max compressor efficiency). Afterall, it is only a 48 trim compressor. The good news is that I was only at 78% injector duty, so I can definitely up the boost before the fuel system calls it quits.

[Celicasaur]

huh? RHD's the wonkey one... unless your a lefty then I guess you could get used to it.

I don't get this at all. Most people are left handed. I personally think it's way better to have your strong hand on the shifter.

Yeah no, I'm going on the theory that the 1-2 shift for you guys, must be the same as the 5-6 shift for RHD people (pulling down and towards you for the shift, rather than down and away from you)...just feels like the 1-2 shift is easier on RHD with the 'dead hand' and the 'good hand' for steering...I've driven a LHD car before and found it really weird...but I guess it's a case of getting used to it. From my personal experience here in the UK, most people I've met in my lifetime tend to be right handed...spooky eh.

But yeah, preference. I prefer the dead hand on the shifter so the good one can steer you away from death :)

Back on topic: Jesse do you use det cans when tuning?

[Illusive]

any chance you can include the ign plot with the above 3? are you on pump? (91, 92, 93, 94?)

13.5 is pretty damned lean for 14 psi.

I'd say that is waay too lean.

[Jesse IL]

Back on topic: Jesse do you use det cans when tuning?
What? Is this some strange British slang?

[Jesse IL]

any chance you can include the ign plot with the above 3? are you on pump? (91, 92, 93, 94?)
93 octane and if you can draw a stright line at 17, you've got it. It bumps to 18 at 7100 and 19 right before redline.
13.5 is pretty damned lean for 17 psi.
14 psi

Also, I didn't realize is was hitting that lean spot. Like I said, it was not anywhere I'd run the car before and that part of the map was a guess. Regardless, timing was pretty retarded so the lean condition shouldn't have affected anything. Put it to you this way: 400 rpm later it is still at 13.0-13.1 and the knock sensor activity drops off to basically background. Something else is going on.

[Illusive]

try upping the fueling and getting it to under 11.5. It looks like you're seeing real knock events.

Take a real good look at the peaks and troughs on the a/f and knock readings. all the troughs correlate to reduced knock readings, all the peaks = increased knock readings.


*edit* i edited my post like seconds after I saw the typo, you must of quoted me soon as I posted *edit*

[Jesse IL]

I should also point out, I was getting the same results when I was running around 9 psi and the fueling was down around 11.1. That was what initially caused me to think that the sensor was reading something that wasn't taking place. Also, other than a rough patch at the lift transition, this is pretty much exactly what the knock sensor activity looked like on Jeff's car. I have some additional testing planned for later this week with different VVT angles and ignition settings, once I get the fuel dialed in.

[jlitman]

I should also point out, I was getting the same results when I was running around 9 psi and the fueling was down around 11.1. That was what initially caused me to think that the sensor was reading something that wasn't taking place. Also, other than a rough patch at the lift transition, this is pretty much exactly what the knock sensor activity looked like on Jeff's car. I have some additional testing planned for later this week with different VVT angles and ignition settings, once I get the fuel dialed in.
If adjusting VVT is quieting logged knock activity, I think it possibly a few real cases of det due to flow reversion and late timing, as we were discussing elsewhere. The rest probably is just resonance due to the turbo.

What adjustments did you make to VVT? Less overlap?

[Entranced]

Take a real good look at the peaks and troughs on the a/f and knock readings. all the troughs correlate to reduced knock readings, all the peaks = increased knock readings.

+1 I figured the same, at least in the lower rpm range that you were experiencing knock (7.5 - 8.5). i'd lower it to 12.0 afr first, then start messing with the VVT and IGN, that way you know for sure that it's not the fueling that is giving the "false" readings. It definatly looks like there's something going on between 10-12.

For all we know, it could be a compounded effect of both AFR and VVT/IGN

something that is weird though... your EngRev graph doesn't match the EngRev pid box at the bottom.. the graph reads around 5500 and the PID reads 4943

[Jesse IL]

something that is weird though... your EngRev graph doesn't match the EngRev pid box at the bottom..
Sometimes it doesn't plot correctly when you change around the range on the graphs. Believe what's at the bottom.

Guys I'm telling you, the knock sensor was doing the exact same thing at 9 psi, 11.1 AFR and three different VVT angles. The activity has not changed regardless of boost, fueling, VVT or ignition timing. When the car was running 9 psi, we were listening intently for knock and couldn't hear anything at that rpm.

Smaay's car did the exact same thing on the dyno. I wish I had some of the old logs from that, but when the turbo spooled, the knock went almost immediately to up around 40 and stayed there. Since we were on the dyno, we just ignored it and kept increasing timing and it continued to make more power. I'm fairly certain the turbo is causing a resonance issue that's setting off the knock sensor.

Here are some logs from a partial 3rd gear pull I made a few minutes before the 4th gear pull above.

http://users.ameritech.net/diabolus/turbolog-3.gif

http://users.ameritech.net/diabolus/turbolog-4.gif

I was typically seeing that first spike at 4400, which I saw a few days prior on a 3rd gear pull. The load is just slightly lower on the 3rd gear pull. As you can see, I get the first big spike when the AFR is at 12.1:1. I get the same spike at 4900, but the still looks OK there (although there will be more lag due to a faster 3rd gear pull). I get the same general lean area, but the knock sensor activity actually drops off.

This is why I'm leaning towards false readings from the sensor. I don't expect that bringing the AFR down will cause any change in sensor activity, although I'll be sure to test that.

One last thing, don't look at the shape of the knock curve too carefully. The sample rate on the Datalogit is far too slow to represent an accurate waveform for the knock sensor.

[Illusive]

Some things to help / try.

Reduce timing to 10-12* while spooling, once at peak boost, slowly increase timing up to the 19* you are currently running at redline.

get your a/f's right, they are still too lean.

after timing and fueling adjustments have been done, the only variable is vvt.

after all vvt adjustments have been logged and if you are still seeing the same spike then it can be ruled out as false knock.

[Jesse IL]

get your a/f's right, they are still too lean.
Dude, I know ;) Seriously, this car was running extremely rich. I turned up the boost...bam...lean. No way to really pre-tune that to perfection. This car has literally seen three pulls like what you see, just for me to gather some data on what was going on.

My only point, which I am regretting trying to make at this point, is that I'm not buying what the knock sensor is selling, based on other info that I don't have logs or nice pictures to support, such as me staring at 11.1 on the AFR gauge and seeing the knock warning go off at part throttle at roughly 7-9 psi and very little timing (far less than many people reliably run with higher cylinder pressures and more boost). That being the case, I would have NO RELIABLE WAY to actually monitor knock in the engine. My concern is that if the turbo itself is causing a resonance issue that is setting off the knock sensor, then what could even a J&S do to figure out where the "real" knock is occurring?

[Illusive]

Dude, I know ;) Seriously, this car was running extremely rich. I turned up the boost...bam...lean. No way to really pre-tune that to perfection. This car has literally seen three pulls like what you see, just for me to gather some data on what was going on.

My only point, which I am regretting trying to make at this point, is that I'm not buying what the knock sensor is selling, based on other info that I don't have logs or nice pictures to support, such as me staring at 11.1 on the AFR gauge and seeing the knock warning go off at part throttle at roughly 7-9 psi and very little timing (far less than many people reliably run with higher cylinder pressures and more boost). That being the case, I would have NO RELIABLE WAY to actually monitor knock in the engine. My concern is that if the turbo itself is causing a resonance issue that is setting off the knock sensor, then what could even a J&S do to figure out where the "real" knock is occurring?

I personally would put 17* at peak boost on 93 pump gas in the very agressive category.

I realize its a different platform but subi guys dont even run that much timing unless they're using meth or c16.

I hear you though, and I know how it can be a pita tracking down gremlins. I used to always have this knock spot at around 5500 rpms, despite conservative timing, adaquate fueling, and various vvt configurations.

I'm not saying you're wrong per-se, just that you have too many variables adding to the equasion at this point, and eliminating them will help you to nail down the problem.

[jlitman]

My concern is that if the turbo itself is causing a resonance issue that is setting off the knock sensor, then what could even a J&S do to figure out where the "real" knock is occurring?
Nothing -- in the end it's got to be user defined. The only way to to it is with a second reliable source such as the dyno, earphones, or if you can swing it, those spark plug signal transducers (which would be super cool -- but I think they're prohibitively expensive...).

I personally would put 17* at peak boost on 93 pump gas in the very agressive category.
Really? What CR are they working with -- that's really not a lot of timing, even with that much boost.