00-01 or 02-05 knock sensor for hydra?

[QTRMLR_1]

so I have an '02 GTS with '02 knock sensor, and I have read that it is beneficial to switch to the 00-01 knock sensor for use with the Power FC. would the same be true with the hydra?

why did Toyota change the design of their knock sensor? the '02 knock sensor data input on the Power FC has a much smaller range than 00-01 data. does the data range have anything to do with inherent knock sensor accuracy or resolution or is it only a matter of how the Power FC interprets the data? would the hydra be any different with different knock sensors?

Not sure if this would help without knowing answers to the above: but I have read that the hydra can amplify knock sensor input.

[Smaay]

thats only to change the RPM, if you have a hydra then you dont need to change knock sensor. you dont have to do it either if you have a PFC.

the only reason for the knock sensor change was to raise the rev limiter and use a stock
ECU

[QTRMLR_1]

thats only to change the RPM, if you have a hydra then you dont need to change knock sensor. you dont have to do it either if you have a PFC.

the only reason for the knock sensor change was to raise the rev limiter and use a stock
ECU

You don't have to change knock sensors with the Power FC, but doesn't it make tuning easier if you have a larger range of knock values so you can construct a knock curve?

Thats why I have always advocated people switching to the old style knock sensor when using the power FC. it is NOT set up for a 2 wire input and the 2 wire sensor does not output correctly through just one wire.

from: http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205309&referrerid=16458

[QTRMLR_1]

no one knows about the hydra?

I'll ask the company. they may or may not know about the two different kinds of knock sensors for the celica (one wire vs two). The data may well have different ranges, but all I need is for there to be enough resolution either way.

[kortik]

on Hydra we already have a preprogrammed Knock curve
if you go to Control 1 > Knock Threshold you will see a dotted line and a solid line make sure that the x doesn't go above solid yellow line. If any x are appearing above the knock threshold curve, the Hydra will retard timing. You will also see the 'ADV' bar on the main screen turn red whenever the Nemesis retards timing due to knock. If are unsure if the level of knock you are getting is safe, put in a tank of high octane race fuel and see what kind of knock response values you are getting then. Remember that it is normal for the knock sensor to give a signal as it reacts to normal engine operation. The signal will be stronger in the presence of real knock. Once you determine what the normal signal level is without knock, set the threshold curve so that it is a little above the highest of the normal engine noise. Normally, the noise will be somewhat lower at lower RPMs, so you can make the threshold curve lower at lower RPMs. You can also see the knock response signal level and how much retard the Nemesis is applying in response to knock on the datalog. in our case and IMO the base map that comes w/Hydra for a 2zz-ge is set safe but you can do a test above to determine to your specific engine etc...


Control 1 > Knock Threshold
This map determines the knock raw voltage amplitude before ECU goes into knock correction. These will be set for the specific engines in base map calibrations. There is an x in the lower left hand corner of the 2D graph. It shows the actual noise coming from the knock sensor. If the user has an engine, which is nosier, then the average, the user can then log the knock raw voltage of the engine in no knock condition and modify the map accordingly. Warning: severe engine damage can result from detonation, do not alter this knock threshold map if you are inexperienced in listening for Knock


In the ‘Control 3’ – ‘Knock fuel add’
This map enables the user to add fuel in areas where knock/detonation is present providing a cooling effect that will make further knocking less likely. This enables the user to remove less timing and still be able to stop detonation after it has started.

Just read this
http://mrcontrols.com/installs/nemesis/tuning.htm#knock

So I dont think you will need to get a different knock sensor w/Hydra
but please ask on Hydraems forum lets see what they say
maybe I am wrong just double check it

Edit:
Did you look at my Hydra map I sent you

[deltaB]

...why did Toyota change the design of their knock sensor?.

Here ya go:

http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/396/Celica%202%20wire%20knock%20sensor.JPG

http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/396/Celica%202%20wire%20knock%20sensor%202.JPG

Like they said, the new sensors have a much wider detection range which makes them much more precise.

Heres some 1 wire sensor info:

http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/396/Celica%201%20wire%20knock%20sensor.JPG

http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/396/Celica%201%20wire%20knock%20sensor%20page%202.JPG

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205701
ΔB

[QTRMLR_1]

thanks deltaB, that was awesome!

thanks, kortik. yes I got your map. I didn't have a chance to install the Hydra software today, but I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

[QTRMLR_1]

so from that entire thread that deltaB posted, I learned a few things:

1. Who the real nerds of nc.org are.
2. The new knock sensor is more accurate and reliable than the old one.
3. The voltage output from the old and new style knock sensors has not changed significantly.
4. 00-01 stock ecus differ from the 02+ ecus in their waveform analysis of the knock sensor signal, judgments in knock level, and subsequent adjustments made in fueling and ignition timing.
5. A new style knock sensor cannot be used with an 00-01 stock ecu and an old style knock sensor cannot be used with 02+ stock ecu.
6. Despite the Power FC being designed to work with the old style knock sensor, it is possible to use the new knock sensor with the Power FC, taking into account the lower knock values recorded (according to torqued who has had personal experience with his '02 GTS).
7. One possible downside to using the Power FC with the new style knock sensor is that cranking time may be increased.

and loosely concluded that:
The Hydra should work with either the old or new knock sensor, because the Power FC works fine with both with some considerations and that one Hydra ecu has been designed to work with 00-03 celicas, according to the Hydra website (assuming that there are no design flaws and the listed application information is correct). We need to compare how the Hydra functions with the old and new style knock sensors.

[dannyb]

what is your rev limit set at?

[QTRMLR_1]

what is your rev limit set at?

8600 with Power FC.

[QTRMLR_1]

Did you look at my Hydra map I sent you

yeah I just played around with the Nemesis 2.5 software for awhile. truly pathetic interface. you'd think they would take what's worked in the interfaces of other ems's. Hopefully 2.6 is better. Hydra might have more features, but I wouldn't go from a Power FC to 2.5.

I looked at your target AFR map and knock threshold curve. from your logged knock values, does the default knock curve from Hydra look reasonable?

I noticed that you're only using 16 of the available 32 load points. Also, what's your rev limit set to and how high do you actually rev? I see your max rev pt is 9950.

[QTRMLR_1]

hey kortik, I can't find the vvt map in the Hydra interface. also, I don't see where you can change the lift engagement and disengagement points. In fact, I can't even find where to adjust the fuel cut.

[QTRMLR_1]

ok, I finally found rpm ignition cut.

[QTRMLR_1]

lol the PWM settings for vvt...PITA

[kortik]

VVT map is under 3dpwm>pwm map 9
to change lift point go to outputs pwm12, you can change the temp. at what temp you wanted lift to engage and at what rpm

the knock curve is pretty good IMO
now I am running 101 octane and I compared that map w/92 octane and I can see that the knock occurs way below the solid curve line compared to 92. but of course you can tweak the map.
my rev limit is at 8448rpm
its under setting >ignition

hydra 2.6 is better especially the vvt map.so instead of going by % now it goes by rpm

also this is my base map
I've only tuned my a/f for crusing and wot
i still need to tweak vvt and timing for sure
here is the result of that map that I sent you on my car.

stock header and ecu, Injen Cai, 2.25 catback vs ppe header 2.5 header back, injen and Hydra w/this map I sent you
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/kortik/PPE%20install%20Borla/IMG_6224.jpg

[QTRMLR_1]

I've installed 2.6, and yes it is significantly better. I might be able to live with it. Is 2.6 available for toyota apps? celica apps?

[QTRMLR_1]

too bad I can't try before I buy haha

[QTRMLR_1]

so my dilemma: I want to use the new style knock sensor which is much better, but the only standalone ems that might fully support it is the hydra. A Power FC, datalogit and AEM UEGO might appear in the for sale section haha.

[kortik]

did you use my map for 2.6
did it work?
I havent tried that I didnt know if it works?

also you asked why I am only using 16 of the available 32 load points
well after that its for boost and I am n/a

[kortik]

Why are you selling AEM Uego wideband ?
you can still use it unless of course you are getting a Hydra Autotune feature

so my dilemma: I want to use the new style knock sensor which is much better, but the only standalone ems that might fully support it is the hydra. A Power FC, datalogit and AEM UEGO might appear in the for sale section haha.

[QTRMLR_1]

did you use my map for 2.6
did it work?
I havent tried that I didnt know if it works?

also you asked why I am only using 16 of the available 32 load points
well after that its for boost and I am n/a

no, I can't open your file with 2.6. I think there's also warning on the Hydra page that says you can't use 2.6 with your 2.5 hardware or you will damage it. idk. maybe I'm remembering it wrong. just be careful.

can't you rescale your map?

[QTRMLR_1]

oh really? ok, that's good to know. what wideband are you using?

Why are you selling AEM Uego wideband ?
you can still use it unless of course you are getting a Hydra Autotune feature

[QTRMLR_1]

back on the knock sensor topic, you're using the new style knock sensor, right kortik? if it works for you with your Hydra, then it should work for me even if my ecu is different. you'd think anyways.

[kortik]

yes I have an 05 2zz w/new knock sensor and it works fine
I haven't tried to rescale the map
I just dont need to do it . what is the point

I use Innovate wideband O2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/kortik/PPE%20install%20Borla/th_MVI_6343.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v459/kortik/PPE%20install%20Borla/?action=view&current=MVI_6343.flv)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/kortik/PPE%20install%20Borla/th_MVI_6344.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v459/kortik/PPE%20install%20Borla/?action=view&current=MVI_6344.flv)

[QTRMLR_1]

nice, car sounds mean. :thumbup:

[QTRMLR_1]

lol my head is spinning. I feel like I'm back in school and just crammed for an exam. :crazy2: just finished going through the 300 pages of the Hydra 2.6 manual and playing with the interface. way to spend a Friday night lol.

conclusion: I want a Hydra. :gap:

[kortik]

lol
what did you learn from 2.6?

[QTRMLR_1]

lol
what did you learn from 2.6?

basically it's not that hard to use...and having gone through the manual, I know what the Hydra is capable of.

[EMSRacerCeli03]

think the autotune is worth it if you get a hydra?

[QTRMLR_1]

I especially like how you can set a knock threshold curve and go to a backup ignition table and add fuel if you breach the threshold. that gives me more confidence when tuning for max power. you can even set up a LED to be activated when the threshold is breached, which is much more visible than the CEL being flashed with the Power FC. and knock is logged in V and not some bs numbers in basic and advanced knock on the Power FC. and as we talked about, how the Hydra works with the much improved knock sensor, which is needed anyways to work best with the knock threshold curve. the 3D maps make it so easy to see holes and blips. and the 32x32 resolution is the best you can get in a standalone. if I should go turbo later on, Hydra has boost control. I'm not completely sure about this, but for my year of celica, I might be able to run the Hydra in parallel with the stock ecu, having the added benefit of the obd-II system. and also, the Hydra has scaling and interpolation functions built in. not that I plan on it, but it you want, the Hydra can run in closed loop with input from the wideband and either have 14.7 or a whole AFR table as the target. lots more stuff in the manual, which is actually well-written and not too boring.

[QTRMLR_1]

think the autotune is worth it if you get a hydra?

nah, not worth it. it's not meant to make a map for you, just to touch up on an already well produced map. if you start up your Hydra and tell it to go tune from the base map, it's going to come up with a really messed up map. and in order to use the auto-tune feature, you have to buy their wideband o2 sensor which is bs. and you wouldn't have a gauge like you would with the aem uego.

[QTRMLR_1]

so after getting all acquainted with the Hydra software, I'm going to keep my Power FC. I got a carputer really cheap on eBay and I'll use that with Copilot. according to Beanie, Copilot works great with the new 2-wire knock sensor.

[kortik]

hey I think if you already have PFC then stick w/it if you can.
The only reason I got Hydra is becuase it was plug and play for my matrix
now there is a harness availbale to use w/pfc for my car.

Hydra is great for boost and it got a lot of usefull features but if you dont know how to tune it then its useless. I think more pople know PFC that Hydra
but of course its never too late to learn how Hydra works