What to Expect for 2003 Celicas

[GTS LAID]

So EVERYONE has been wondering (and IMing me) about the changes that are taking place... heres the scoop:

ECU: completely different ECU to manage a rather different car. It wont be compatible with any previous model, and it'll require extensive (~$5000) in modification to make it work with the 02 cars. Look below for why.

REV-CUT: The rev limiter will be going back UP to 8400rpm. Again you wont be able to use the 03 ECU in the 02s.. see why below.

Cruise Control: The cruise control unit that connects the cables from the pedal to the throttle body will be relocated.... to the garbage. why?? ....

Drive System: 2003 Celica GTS will debut a brand new Drive by wire throttle system that's 100% computer controlled. There are no cables.....


So as you can see there are some major changes.. and something tells me they arent the only ones... I'd like to thank all those who contributed to providing me with the info... they get to watch while i get the credit for providing the info... but they're not forgotten in my secret little hero blackbook.

As for what to do now that we know the 02s are weird F*cked up one-offs... I'll be posting a new thread with step by step recommendations. I'll link up to it here once i write it.

Good news for everyone who doesnt have a celica... sucky news for the 02 people.

EDIT: more stuff

Options: The car will now have High Intensity Discharge as an option

Body: New option names Agressive appearance package... might just be the same as the action package celica with a new name.

Color: New color additions are Solar Yellow and Zephr Blue Mica

Available colors are now:

Absolutely Red
Black
Carbon Blue
Silver Streak Mica
Solar Yellow
Spectra Blue Mica
Super White
Zephr Blue Mica

[Deftech]

thanks for the info. Hmmm Wonder how it will compare to the '01 and '00 in performance?

what do you think this will mean as far an development for the Celica?

[2kgtx]

Ok now I want an 03 GTS 6spd, Looks like they fixed the problems of the 00 and 01 with the rev limiter raised. Thanks for the info.

[djm221]

Where's the damn convertable? I am going RWD for my next car, but if the Celi came out in a convertable, I would rethink.

Anyway, good news in general. Wonder why they are going drive by wire.

[WillyK]

What is the advantage of drive by wire over the way it is now?

[autxr]

drive by wire rocks (just the cool factor).

drive by wire allows full ECU control of the throttle. lots of neat things can happen then, I'm just not quite smart enough to say what (other than the fully automated cruise control). Traction control also gets interesting, as do other things.

Scott

[twanmoney]

'02 owner
/cry

[Griffin]

Toyota is going drive by wire on everything it seems like. The new 4 cylinder Camry got it in 2002 as did the 1MZ-FE V6. Just about everythign that comes out new seems to be getting it. From a manufaturers stanpoint it offers teh following benefits:

1 - slightly reduced emmisions (full control over throttle means you can control engine rpm dropoff rate between shifts - this helps with the amount of gasses produced for the cat to clean up)

2 - Integrated cruise control - Cruise control now amounts to simply installing teh switch. The control logic resides in all of teh ECMs and the motors to drive the thing reside in the throttle body.

3 - weight reductions - some small weight savings from removing cruise actuator and cables.

4 - Easier assembly - less cables to hook up means less time spent on teh assembly line and less possible mistakes.

5 - more precise engine control. Theoretically this allows for optimized acceleration and engine operation throughout teh power band. Usint the APPS (Accelkerator Pedal Position Sensor) as a mere acceleration request lets the ECM open the throttle at a rate to maximize drivability, economy, or performance as teh situations dictates.

6 - Integration with VSC and TRAC systems when applicable.

7 - Reduced NVH - takes away one more item that could carry a vibration through the firewall.

And there are even more benefits. All in all its a nice system, although drive by wire is historically a little prone to a bit of "lag" when you depress the throttle.

Hope this helps

Griffin

[redlineGTS]

does anyone know if they fixed the 1-2 shift to beable to land in the lift? after this long i hope they realized they screwed up with the gearing.

[Da Kine Guy]

Hmmmm, the drive by wire sounds neat...........kinda. Sounds like they're moving towards making the driving experience inside a REAL car just like that in a video game. I bet you that fancy shmancy APPS is no more then the same stuff used in joysticks. It's either a potientiometer with the computer reading the charge rate of a capacitor hooked up to it, or it's done optically with a rotating disc with perforations around the edge and two optical sensors to detect the discs position.

Well, I hope they know what they're doing. I'd much rather replace a broken throttle cable then mess with a whole slew of wires in multicolors. Plus there's some more stuff that can break. Now that the throttle action isn't mechanical you gotta have a motor controlling the butterfly in the TB.

I think they should screw with this novelty crap and concentrate on creating a reliable and robust electronically controlled valve engine out. Now THAT would be cool.

[Blue Lucifer]

I have one complaint. I had drive by wire. I have driven in BMWs with them, and I have to say they really suck. You have no feeling in the pedal as it is now a big potentiometer that acts like a video game pedal. You hit the gas hard, and the ECU with other factors delay the punch to the pedal. Also the servo they use typically isn't as responsive. I was really dissapointed with drive by wire, and I don't see it helping much in cars except maybe emissions. You can argue that it is better, but seriously, drive on that has it, and you can see that the car is no longer directly controlled by the driver.

[ringthree]

I have heard the same things Blue Lucifer.

[Griffin]

Toyota has been using these systems since like 97 or 98 I think, first introduced on the NA Supra when it got VVTi. They have come a long way - if you wanna see what its like, go drive a 2002 camry at the dealer. I think it works pretty well.

As for the APPS - Assuming they use the same one as in all the other cars its a redundant potentiometer - its uses twin signal sweeps with a slight voltage offset for safety.,

Griffin

[gts24]

If Solar Yellow is the same Solar Yellow available for the Lexus side of the house, that is gonna be a pretty decent color.

If you want to see those colors go "build" your own IS300 on www.lexus.com and that'll give you an idea. I see a yellow IS300 around here all the time and it's a great color.


The fly by wire stuff has me questioning things a lot. I will have to test drive one to really see how well it works.

[kabal57]

OK thats it, I'm about to explode here. WTH would anyone want some fukked up 02 that is not as good as the cars before and after? isnt this gonna hurt the resale value of our cars as opposed to the 01 and 03's? Man im so freakin angry now..Unless something gets done about this I will NOT be buying another toyota..
This sucks :(

[Griffin]

The following vehicles currently use some form or drive by wire sysytem:

Tundra
Sequoia
Avalon
Camry
Solara
Prius
Landcruiser
ALL Lexus vehicles

They all work pretty much the same way do if you want to check it out you can drive any of them. Its a pretty solid system and the throttle response is a lot better than what it was of old.

Griffin

[QWKsilvr808]

great info! I wonder if this new silver is going to actually be a noticeably different shade from the old Liquid Silver Metallic.

[HilfigerCelica]

'02 owners are going to be pissed.

[Chui]

But DBW can be programmed to deliver whatever level of response the engineers/marketing guys decide. See the BMW M3 for example. There are two modes: 'Normal' and 'Sport'. All in all, Blue Lucifer and ringthree, I'd prefer a mechanical linkage, but they can be made to perform as well as a mechanical system. Now that I think about it the BMW M5 has the same system.

Nice AmStaff, Hilfiger.

[insunan]

Originally posted by HilfigerCelica
'02 owners are going to be pissed.

Rightly so.

[ToJo]

As an '02 ownder, I must say that I'm not pissed at all.
I'm planning on tossing the factory ECU anyway at some point.

This drive by wire stuff seems like it's going to make things even more complicated for the people trying to make aftermarket ECUs.

Plus it's one more thing that strips control from the DRIVER.
I don't want to 'request' full throttle....when I say open it up, that bitch had better be opened up immediately.

[Cronos]

Originally posted by ToJo
As an '02 ownder, I must say that I'm not pissed at all.
I'm planning on tossing the factory ECU anyway at some point.

This drive by wire stuff seems like it's going to make things even more complicated for the people trying to make aftermarket ECUs.

Plus it's one more thing that strips control from the DRIVER.
I don't want to 'request' full throttle....when I say open it up, that bitch had better be opened up immediately. :werd:

I've driven a VW with drive by wire and it did have a lag in the response. It also made it difficult to rev match during downshifts because the ECU wouldn't give you the throttle response quick enough. I'll stick with drive by cable.

Unless they bump up the power for the 03 and/or change gearing, I don't see it being any faster than an 00 or 01.

[LEDmod]

Well.. there is lot of new thing for 03....
But I would prefer drive by cable(which is better for manual)...

Now atleast good news... 03's rev went back up... and now 02 have more excuse to say that why is ONLY 02 is lowered....
Hmm..... now we have to complain like MOFO and make them change back to way it should be without for 02ers to spend hundeds of money to fix their ignorance....
Just HOPE and HOPE it'll be fixed for us 02ers.....

[Ntence99]

What about the transmission???Did they make n-e mods to it(stronger syncros?)?

[ToJo]

With the '02 being the only model year with a lower rev limit, I can't understand why they wouldn't offer a fix for it. Even if I had to pay a small fee for a new ECU (at cost) I wouldn't mind doing that while I wait for a full aftermarket replacement.

[Griffin]

I still say before you guys condemn the response of the drive by wire system you maybe ought to try it. If memory serves some testing done back when they were first introducing these systems showed that the DBW systems were able to actually out accelerate cable driven engines due to optimal throttle opening speed as opposed to the slight bog created in the linkage system when the throttle was dumped to the floor. The only time it gets laggy is when the guys who write the ECM software build in a bit of lag for "smooth" acceleration or emissions reasons. Either way none of us have driven one yet and the system rocks on the Lexus & toyota models I've driven ( well some of the Luxury cruisers are a bit sluggish to respond but thats intentional) so I'd say its best to keep an open mind untill we have one or two reliable butt dyno results to draw upon :)

Griffin

[gts24]

What about this concept.......


Could the drive by wire system be a weapon in Toyota's arsenal to stop over revving when/if a misshift were to occur?

It would seem that the wider gates and longer throws have completely taken away the possibility of dumb U.S. drivers from ever misshifting.

But if a person were to really try to misshift, would the DBW system kick in and just take the "throttle away"?

just a question.

[MeGaXmAn27]

wonder will they let me bring my '00 in and ask for HIDS =0), thanks for the info gts laid

[BRAK]

OK so the 02 cant swap with the 03 SO WHAT!!! We can still for a VERY little fee switch the ECU with a 2000 very easily and make it look stock (99% of dealerships could not reconise the swap!)
Our 02's are still VERY fun to drive and great inthe twisties!
Our Cars are becomeing popular VERY fast and our 2zz engine is being put in numerous cars = MORE AFTERMARKET. The rev limiter is a little annoying , but yet again Toyota more than likely will recall our 02's in .... I belive it will happen......... If not i will make a petition for everyone to e-mail/support this action to be done.
If they say F*** off then just get a 2000 ecu and knock sensor and do it yourself for about a 2 hour job.

[Da Kine Guy]

Damn, you guys are right. The '02 is gonna have a dip in resale because of this issue. It'll be the :nono: year for the well informed. I guess the best Celi's are gonna be the '01 and '00 models that have the tranny replaced with the '02 version. High rev limit, friendlier gates (and stronger synchros it seems), and cable throttle. HEY!! That's what I got :D

It's still for sale btw ;)

[Griffin]

Originally posted by gts24
What about this concept.......


Could the drive by wire system be a weapon in Toyota's arsenal to stop over revving when/if a misshift were to occur?

It would seem that the wider gates and longer throws have completely taken away the possibility of dumb U.S. drivers from ever misshifting.

But if a person were to really try to misshift, would the DBW system kick in and just take the "throttle away"?

just a question.

I doubt it. Like I said before they are moving everything to Drive By wire, I think this is probably just a part of that trend. They already fixed the misshift with the gates, they aren't gonna spend all the time and money creating this system to re-fix what is no longer broken. My guess is that they probably instituted this to lower production costs. I don't expect a performance enhancement or detriment to be honest.

Griffin

[krayze]

this blows big time!!!!!!! i have qan 02 so they better recall it because i can't afford a new ecu and i want the higher revlimit. Do you guys really think toyota will recall the 02's?

[pokgai]

Do I smell a possible future GROUP BUY on the 2003 HID Headlight housings?? David???? It would be cool if the housings were black too. Like the Camry SE, or the 2002+ acura CL cars.

[atehrani]

That sucks big time for the 02 owners. But the DBW sounds very nice. I am curious to see the dynos for the 03 models. Plus the HID's :)

[ToJo]

Electronic throttle will not stop miss shift. You can still rev to 8400 in 3rd gear, remove your foot from the gas entirely, and shift into 2nd gear. Even if you don't touch the throttle, you've still jacked up the engine. Electronic clutch would fix it. But throttle will not.

[Tony01Gts]

Awesome info GTS LAID... I am getting very excited about going to arbitration and hopefully winning a 03. Do you think the Zephr Blue is different than the spec blue? I think I'm gonna go for Zephr Blue, Aggression (testosterone?) package, HIDs, Leather, and drop my CF interior and get it painted the same as the exterior of the car. I'm sure I will pay out the ass for my new options but thats fine! Hopefully they let me change the options!

[Chui]

"Electronic clutch would fix it. But throttle will not."

Only a functioning central nervous system with mechanical sympathy prevent a misshift that will result in destroying valves and pistons. No amount of electronic aids will prevent the inertias of the rotating parts from coming into contact with each other. Sorry.

[chrisle7220]

i dont have to worry about no 2003 celica, cause by next year im trading in my celica, for an s2000!!!!

[Blue Lucifer]

Well, I have to disagree with the Drive by Wire. Seriously, there is nothing more satisfying than a cable that opens a throttle. I mean, if they had an electronic brake pedal like the accelerator or electronic cluch, we would all laugh. Driving a car with Drive by Wire doesn't feel like you're in control of the car. There is lag, and they probably did this for the mis-shifts, but it could be a trend. but one thing is for sure, it will be difficult to rev match it, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Blue Lucifer]

oh yeah Not all Lexus have drive by wire. Our Rx300 has cable drive. If you release the gas pedal, and you hear a knocking sound inside the engine bay, then it is cable driven as the throttle is hitting around making noise.

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Chui
"Electronic clutch would fix it. But throttle will not."

Only a functioning central nervous system with mechanical sympathy prevent a misshift that will result in destroying valves and pistons. No amount of electronic aids will prevent the inertias of the rotating parts from coming into contact with each other. Sorry.

Or lockouts on the shifter that just don't LET you shift into certain gears above certain speeds :)

Griffin

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Blue Lucifer
oh yeah Not all Lexus have drive by wire. Our Rx300 has cable drive. If you release the gas pedal, and you hear a knocking sound inside the engine bay, then it is cable driven as the throttle is hitting around making noise.

Hmm not 100% sure on RX, but I do believe it is also drive by wire. If not its the only lexus that doesn't have it. Not all DBW systems are cable less - the Toyota first gen system thats been in use since 97/98 had a cable and a mechanical backup in case teh system went into failsafe but during normal driving teh cable just moved the APPS which is mounted on the throttle body. There is no mechanical linkage that ever engages during normal operation hence: DBW.

Supra and IS300 are BDW and I don't hear many people complaining about acceleration or throttle response there...

BTW - DBW makes noise too - it moves the throttle just like a cable does.

Griffin

[iCyBLuEFiRedGTs]

damn... I have an 02, why me?!

[Blue Lucifer]

Supra and IS300 are BDW and I don't hear many people complaining about acceleration or throttle response there...DBW makes noise too - it moves the throttle just like a cable does.

I should have clarified the situation. I mean you'll hear the throttle hitting noise when the engine isn't on and when the car is completely off. Try it in your celica when you're about to start it up with the windows down. I don't think a drive by wire is continuously on when the key is off, at least that's what the Bimmer did. It would be a waste of energy. When I stepped on the pedal in the Bimmer when it was off, it didn't make a single noise, and my friend checked out under the hood and didn't see anything move. But I guess we'll see how the drive by wire works. I think it is personally a waste of technology and makes things complicated in a sports car where feel is everything. If it were that great, then why haven't we seen it in applications for brakes and clutches? I think it would hinder driver sensitivity to the car. If it were in applied to comfort cars or econo cars for that extra emissions, why not? But not in sports cars.

[MeGaXmAn27]

Originally posted by pokgai
Do I smell a possible future GROUP BUY on the 2003 HID Headlight housings?? David???? It would be cool if the housings were black too. Like the Camry SE, or the 2002+ acura CL cars.

wouldnt that be sweet =0)

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Blue Lucifer


I should have clarified the situation. I mean you'll hear the throttle hitting noise when the engine isn't on and when the car is completely off. Try it in your celica when you're about to start it up with the windows down. I don't think a drive by wire is continuously on when the key is off, at least that's what the Bimmer did. It would be a waste of energy. When I stepped on the pedal in the Bimmer when it was off, it didn't make a single noise, and my friend checked out under the hood and didn't see anything move. But I guess we'll see how the drive by wire works. I think it is personally a waste of technology and makes things complicated in a sports car where feel is everything. If it were that great, then why haven't we seen it in applications for brakes and clutches? I think it would hinder driver sensitivity to the car. If it were in applied to comfort cars or econo cars for that extra emissions, why not? But not in sports cars.

shrug... I love the way the Supra and IS drive so I'm not too worried, I will wait tiil the 03 is out and pass judgement then. No sense in getting upset before anyone has driven it though. As a point of interest the spring tension on the system is pretty much exactly equal to the system tension on a cable driven system so the pedal feel will be the same even if the response might not be.

Your right about the system not always being on, but the first gen system will make noise regardless as it has a cable and moving bits in the engine compartment.

You were right about the RX too btw, I checked and its still got a regular throttle body (great throttle response too I must say)

Griffin

[atehrani]

Originally posted by Blue Lucifer
I should have clarified the situation. I mean you'll hear the throttle hitting noise when the engine isn't on and when the car is completely off. Try it in your celica when you're about to start it up with the windows down. I don't think a drive by wire is continuously on when the key is off, at least that's what the Bimmer did. It would be a waste of energy. When I stepped on the pedal in the Bimmer when it was off, it didn't make a single noise, and my friend checked out under the hood and didn't see anything move......

What I want you to clarify is why would you care if the throttle opened or not when the car is off??:confused:

[larryd]

i dont think id like this new Drive by wire throttle system. I can just forsee problems with no being fast enuf response, not being able to hold a steady response, what happens if your ECU freaks out and your throttle gets stuck wide open?? that would suck.. what about running a standalone, I dont know of any standalones that contrl your tps?? :)

[YOshi31]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: i wanted a yellow celica!!!! YEllow is my F*ck FAVORITE COLOR!!! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNONONONONONON........ i'm pissed

[Silver-toy]

All in all this is going to be interesting...

Yellow Celica hmmmm gonna have to see that in person hehe

Drive by Wire = First year (Big troubles I would expect)

HIDS = How much? I want some :applaud:

For the 02 owners... all I can say is Ouch! Take a hit and trade in your 02 for a 03 haha

Josh
00 GT-S with some mods.

Oh yeah GTS Laid thanks for the info.

[gts24]

Larry's comment brings up an interesting point.

What about people like billybrun that are launching at rpms well over 6k....... I have my doubts as to whether or not this dbw stuff is gonna make that too terribly easy.

[dnet3]

ok i hope this isn't a stupid question, but what is high intensity discharge?

[HQH51]

I only wonder how much the HID lights will cost, who's supplying HID lights to Toyota (brand name?) and what the Zephr Blue Mica looks like.

[atehrani]

Obviously non of you guys have ever driven an M3 or even a 330i. They're both DBW and they have a better feel than the throttle kind, IMO.

At least wait till the 03 models come out before you begin to judge.

[atehrani]

Originally posted by dnet3
ok i hope this isn't a stupid question, but what is high intensity discharge?

HID are those new headlights that all the luxury cars have (bright white, bluish lights). They're brighter and they annoy other drivers.

[Brett]

Originally posted by atehrani


HID are those new headlights that all the luxury cars have (bright white, bluish lights). They're brighter and they annoy other drivers.

Yes, they are annoying because you cant stop trying to figure out what the car is! I love HIDs. I think they are great looking.

[YOshi31]

ok time to write a letter to Customer servise dept of toyota i'll write later this week and post it so all can copy and send it whom have 2k2

[EuGeNiLe GTS]

wow good 411.. on the 2003.. that sucks for the 2002 owners.. if i was one i would be pissed that they moved the limiter back.. got screwed

[ToJo]

Happy they put the limiter back for '03.
It's an admission that they screwed up in '02.

[Griffin]

Originally posted by larryd
i dont think id like this new Drive by wire throttle system. I can just forsee problems with no being fast enuf response, not being able to hold a steady response, what happens if your ECU freaks out and your throttle gets stuck wide open?? that would suck.. what about running a standalone, I dont know of any standalones that contrl your tps?? :)

Toyota has been building DBW systems since 97 and I have NEVER heard of one failing to where the throttle sticks open. (although I HAVE heard of it happening to cable systems) - on the ones I've seen so far the APPS uses a redundant sensor. If it sees a problem it goes into a default limp home mode.

It can hold a steadier throttle that you can...

and lastly as for response, only time will tell. But like I said - go drive an IS300 or a Camry or a Tundra or whatever... see what you think about the throttle response because I suspectit will be comparable. I know I never had any complaints about my Tundra, it was a beast ;)

As for standalones.... I fear you are right on that account, but if you are running a standalone just buy a pedal, cable, and throttle body for a 2002 or earlier and problem solved. That or wait a couple years and the tuners will figure it out. Its really not that hard.

Listen guys - all I'm asking here is that you TRY it before you knock it. I mean - I don't know, maybe it will blow goats, but when the first of theses systems came out back in 97 I felt exactly the same as you, and they did kinda suck back then. But when I started driving the newer ones I noticed that you can't really tell the difference. The ECM can make something over 100 minute corrections per second. All in all its pretty damn impressive and its the wave of the future. Eventually tuners will learn to use it like they have finally (in the cases of the good ones) learned to use those "annoying" O2 and Air Fuel ratio Sensors to actually increase performance. Just give it a chance. Technology is not always a bad thing, and this is by no means a new venture in auto technology. Its pretty much tried and true at this point, even if it IS new to the Celica.

Griffin

[larryd]

Originally posted by Griffin
As for standalones.... I fear you are right on that account, but if you are running a standalone just buy a pedal, cable, and throttle body for a 2002 or earlier and problem solved. That or wait a couple years and the tuners will figure it out. Its really not that hard.

true.. there is a work around for everything.. i just dont liek change.. what can i say ;)

[Da Kine Guy]

Hey Griff, does the '99 4Runner SR5 4WD have that drive by wire as well? Parents are looking at one and I am just curious.

[asiatic]

how about more headroom? :D

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Da Kine Guy
Hey Griff, does the '99 4Runner SR5 4WD have that drive by wire as well? Parents are looking at one and I am just curious.

Nope. 4 Runner hasn't ever had DBW yet but it will probably get it for 2003. All new bodystyle and engines (the 4.7 V8 and a 4.0 V6) - the 4.7 has DBW in the Tundra so thats gauranteed, and since the 4.0 will be new I imagine that will get it as well. The 99 4Runner was a good truck though, I had one (Nice one too - special order GX package from Japan, color matched fender flares and bumpers, hood scoop, push button locking rear Diff, 4x4, offroad suspension. Was a sweet truck, 0 problems with it, but it didn't tow a 4000 lb. Boat and trailer combo that well. I mean it got the job done but it was a bit light and the 3.4 was a bit under powered. The 2000 Tundra was a welcome replacement)

Griffin

[CelicaDetective]

I don't normally logon WEEKENDS, but this is some interesting news. A friend of mine has seen the 2003 Toyota Celica at a meeting this past week. He is a Toyota employee.

He says that the front fascia is slightly different (I am thinking to accomodate the new HID option). He also knew about *some* of the info that GTS LAID posted here, so this will be very interesting to see when it comes out.

[BRAK]

celica detective .... see if they are plannin on recalling our 02's for the rev limit ...... PLEASE!

[BRAK]

Oh and if the new front facia will fit the previous models, and it looks good I definatly will be down with putting it on ...... 02 that looks like an 03 (also i will get the HID's) MAN O MAN OUR CELICAS ARE GONNA LOOK SWEET! Thank god toyota is waking up!:thumbup: :applaud:

[PoweredbyRICE]

so....'03 rev up to 8400 damn heh are the 00 and 01's gonna have problems competing with the '03s?....damn i might have to take off everything and trade mine in for a 2003...wow..HIDS!!!

[HQH51]

I only wonder if anybody got a photo of the new look at that meeting... Would be nice to see how it looks.

Originally posted by CelicaDetective
I don't normally logon WEEKENDS, but this is some interesting news. A friend of mine has seen the 2003 Toyota Celica at a meeting this past week. He is a Toyota employee.

He says that the front fascia is slightly different (I am thinking to accomodate the new HID option). He also knew about *some* of the info that GTS LAID posted here, so this will be very interesting to see when it comes out.

[larryd]

Originally posted by BRAK
Oh and if the new front facia will fit the previous models, and it looks good I definatly will be down with putting it on ...... 02 that looks like an 03 (also i will get the HID's) MAN O MAN OUR CELICAS ARE GONNA LOOK SWEET! Thank god toyota is waking up!:thumbup: :applaud:

man you crack me up..

"MAN O MAN OUR CELICAS ARE GONNA LOOK SWEET! "

even it its true that they did redesign the front bumper which noone really knows yet, how do you know its gonna look sweet :)

[BRAK]

Raining on my parade ......i know, because i know (praying it looks good) If it doesnt ... then that makes our celicas look 10x better!!:thumbup:

[Kurt]

so excellent....ill be right in the market for a 03 when they hit the streets....hmm...ill take a GT-S 6spd with HID's in Zypher blue please:)

oh and BTW-for those of you knocking DBW, go drive a car with it first;) it owns. (IE the Spec V....now THATS a car done right)

-KP

[TuRbEeZy]

DBW is actually not that bad i ahve it on my GTI. There are times were i feel the lag of the system but thats really rare like when i mash the accelerator after shifting. Tha lag is also more evident in my car since i have a turbo as well so there should be no lag on the new celicas. Now im used to it and i know how to make it work so there is no lag whatsoever it feels just like a cable.

[rapture]

does anyone have any idea what this zypher blue looks like?? i hope its like the blue that the s2000's have

[TuRbEeZy]

just wondering since the matrix has the same engine and tranny for the 2002 model cant u just take the ecu from it and put iy in the 02 celicas??

[Blue Lucifer]

What I want you to clarify is why would you care if the throttle opened or not when the car is off

No no no no... This was clarification to confirm that you do not have drive by wire in a car by doing that simple test. See the above posts to see what I meant.

[Z24and GT]

My car has DBW and i cannot tell a difference in throttle response between my car and my wifes celica.

Now for the bad part of people who like to use nos. You can forget all the fancy WOT switches and whatnot and you will need to learn to manually turn it on a wot and make sure you dont hit fuel cutoff. :D

[gts24]

Originally posted by Z24and GT
My car has DBW and i cannot tell a difference in throttle response between my car and my wifes celica.

Now for the bad part of people who like to use nos. You can forget all the fancy WOT switches and whatnot and you will need to learn to manually turn it on a wot and make sure you dont hit fuel cutoff. :D


Wow that is a very interesting point.....

Griffin, can you comment on this?

[Griffin]

Originally posted by gts24



Wow that is a very interesting point.....

Griffin, can you comment on this?

Just mount the switch on the accel pedal.

Griffin

[Z24and GT]

Originally posted by Griffin


Just mount the switch on the accel pedal.

Griffin

That will work when its at WOT, but what if you accidentally hit the rev limiter, nothing like dumping straight N20 into the engine. say bye bye engine.

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Z24and GT


That will work when its at WOT, but what if you accidentally hit the rev limiter, nothing like dumping straight N20 into the engine. say bye bye engine.

If you want to tell me how the current systems workl I can probably answer you. I've never messed with nitrous outside of a few small cheater systems that basically were just on/off. How did they work / what exactly did they do on the 2000 - 2002 models?

Griffin

[Z24and GT]

Originally posted by Griffin


If you want to tell me how the current systems workl I can probably answer you. I've never messed with nitrous outside of a few small cheater systems that basically were just on/off. How did they work / what exactly did they do on the 2000 - 2002 models?

Griffin

Ask larry, if i remember correctly you have a WOT switch along with a switch that shuts off the n2o at redline so you dont ruin your engine. There is no way to hook that up to a car with DBW since its controlled by the ecu.

This probably ruins your guys chances of getting a new ecu also. They will ditch the 00-02s since its *old* technology now.

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Z24and GT


Ask larry, if i remember correctly you have a WOT switch along with a switch that shuts off the n2o at redline so you dont ruin your engine. There is no way to hook that up to a car with DBW since its controlled by the ecu.

This probably ruins your guys chances of getting a new ecu also. They will ditch the 00-02s since its *old* technology now.

What does that have to do with the throttle? The Tach signal hasn't changed. If its cutting off nitrous based on RPM that would work exactly the same as before. Your question doesn't make any sense.

Griffin

[Griffin]

BTW - thanks for the info GTS LAID - I guess car and driver just proved your source wasn't full of sheet after all. Can you find out how many complaints they have actually gotten about the 2002 rev limiter maybe? If we are right about how few people are contacting them then that could verify our suspicions on why we don't have a fix.

Griffin

[GTS LAID]

Griffin... your concern is not unfounded... as it turns out Toyota has received a measly 7 calls dealing with this problem EVER... and since the last two weeks they've gotten 0 calls... its no wonder these people dont have a fix.. they dont deserve one.

anyway you think we can probably come up with a way for them to call and say the same thing?

[gts24]

Originally posted by GTS LAID
Griffin... your concern is not unfounded... as it turns out Toyota has received a measly 7 calls dealing with this problem EVER... and since the last two weeks they've gotten 0 calls... its no wonder these people dont have a fix.. they dont deserve one.

anyway you think we can probably come up with a way for them to call and say the same thing?


We need that Tella-Caller 9000 thing from the Simpsons. We'll set it up to ring every 5 minutes. ;)

[Willis5050]

Wow that's pathetic. Guess this group isnt so tight knit after all, the old SE-R guys would have already been petitioning at nissan japan headquarters if this happened to them. Oh well, i guess myself and six others are out of luck.

[Griffin]

Originally posted by GTS LAID
Griffin... your concern is not unfounded... as it turns out Toyota has received a measly 7 calls dealing with this problem EVER... and since the last two weeks they've gotten 0 calls... its no wonder these people dont have a fix.. they dont deserve one.

anyway you think we can probably come up with a way for them to call and say the same thing?

Yeah I think thats important, especially because the poeople on the other end of the phone don't truly understand what we are telling them. If we standardize the terminology, complain about the same things, and make enough phone calls they will listen.
heres what I think we should touch on an dthe language we should use:

Request:
I'd like to request that Toyota please fix a problem with the rev-limiter for my 2002 Celica.

Decription:
In the 2000 and 2001 Celica the rev limiter (which is the point at which the ECM cuts off fuel) would stop the engine at 8400 RPM. For 2002 that changed without warning. According to Toyota's comments to Car and Driver in teh August issue, this was soen with out TMS consent and the Rev limiter is being re-instated for 2003. Which leaves me with a few problems:

1 - My brand new 2002 is a slower and worse preforming car than the 2000 and 2001 models

2 - the Value of my car when I go to sell it is going to be impacted by this issue. Why would anyone want to buy MY car when they could have an 00 01 or 03 with the "good" rev limiter. This will mean I will have to discount the price of my Celica and take a hit on the price when I go to sell it.

3 - The fact that Toyota now knows it sold sub-par vehicles to many 2002 owners gives you a change to make up for your mistakes. Please produce a new engine computer to bring back the old rev limiter and restore our lost performance. If you don't there are a lot of 2002 owvers that will probably be looking outside the Toyota Car line for their next purchase.



anyways thats just a starting point - feel free to add or refine it. The main thing is that we have to be sure they understand the request and that the words we use (like rev limiter) are consistent.

[RADR1732]

I hope no one has talked about it yet but about the new "Aggressive Appearance Package." It could be possible that they are simply changing the name of the "Action Package." Do you guys think it may be the Molly Kit? I mean all the other TRD cars that come out have ground effects that are made by Molly as is evident in Molly Design's web site. I don't know, I may just be dreaming. But then again, it could be the reason why Molly discontinued the kit or made it so limited is to produce more for Toyota. I'm probably just be hoping and dreaming but that's my thoughts on it. I really hope it is and I'm crossing my fingers.

Richard

[twanmoney]

GREAT IDEA



Request:
I'd like to request that Toyota please fix a problem with the rev-limiter for my 2002 Celica.

Decription:
In the 2000 and 2001 Celica the rev limiter (which is the point at which the ECM cuts off fuel) would stop the engine at 8400 RPM. For 2002 that changed without warning. According to Toyota's comments to Car and Driver in teh August issue, this was soen with out TMS consent and the Rev limiter is being re-instated for 2003. Which leaves me with a few problems:

1 - My brand new 2002 is a slower and worse preforming car than the 2000 and 2001 models

2 - the Value of my car when I go to sell it is going to be impacted by this issue. Why would anyone want to buy MY car when they could have an 00 01 or 03 with the "good" rev limiter. This will mean I will have to discount the price of my Celica and take a hit on the price when I go to sell it.

3 - The fact that Toyota now knows it sold sub-par vehicles to many 2002 owners gives you a change to make up for your mistakes. Please produce a new engine computer to bring back the old rev limiter and restore our lost performance. If you don't there are a lot of 2002 owvers that will probably be looking outside the Toyota Car line for their next purchase.



Printing this and using it as a guide for my calls / emails.
Standardization may give us a voice.
I know the first time i called the guy didnt understand me.
But to be honest i was a lil nervous/heated and rambling.
Thanks very much.

[Blue Bomber]

Originally posted by RADR1732
I hope no one has talked about it yet but about the new "Aggressive Appearance Package." It could be possible that they are simply changing the name of the "Action Package." Do you guys think it may be the Molly Kit? I mean all the other TRD cars that come out have ground effects that are made by Molly as is evident in Molly Design's web site. I don't know, I may just be dreaming. But then again, it could be the reason why Molly discontinued the kit or made it so limited is to produce more for Toyota. I'm probably just be hoping and dreaming but that's my thoughts on it. I really hope it is and I'm crossing my fingers.

Richard Boy, wouldn't that be a kick in the ass for anyone who bought the kit trying to make their car unique. :rolleyes:

[CelicaDetective]

It's just the Action Package, renamed. When I was building my Celica off the Toyota website months ago, their was an option for "Aggressive Appearance Package" which is essentially the action package. "action package" sounds lame.

Mike


Originally posted by RADR1732
I hope no one has talked about it yet but about the new "Aggressive Appearance Package." It could be possible that they are simply changing the name of the "Action Package."
Richard

[rapture]

i dont think toyota is going to do anything about the 02 rev limiter. they have a redline on the thing for a reason. you arent supposed to go past redline anyway. anything after redline isn't (supposed to be) our business. they're probably thinking... why bother with the ricers trying to go faster. i mean.. your car wouldnt lose value i dont think. what percentage of the people that buy celicas buy it to race? think positively... oh this guy is selling and 02 and this is selling an 01... the 02 must not be as ragged out as the 01 since theres a revlimiter on it. count all the people that are complaining about the revlimiter and count all the people that have GTS 6 speeds and dont know jack about it. I've known many GTS 6 speeds that dont race at all... many that race but arent so hardcore that they want to push it an extra 500 rpm. you gotta look at toyota's perspective on this.. i'm wondering if any of you see it too. (just my .02)

[Griffin]

Originally posted by rapture
i dont think toyota is going to do anything about the 02 rev limiter. they have a redline on the thing for a reason. you arent supposed to go past redline anyway. anything after redline isn't (supposed to be) our business. they're probably thinking... why bother with the ricers trying to go faster. i mean.. your car wouldnt lose value i dont think. what percentage of the people that buy celicas buy it to race? think positively... oh this guy is selling and 02 and this is selling an 01... the 02 must not be as ragged out as the 01 since theres a revlimiter on it. count all the people that are complaining about the revlimiter and count all the people that have GTS 6 speeds and dont know jack about it. I've known many GTS 6 speeds that dont race at all... many that race but arent so hardcore that they want to push it an extra 500 rpm. you gotta look at toyota's perspective on this.. i'm wondering if any of you see it too. (just my .02)

Sure we do - but it never hurts to try. Regardless of what MOST people think, Toyota KNOWS that they shafted the 2002 owners a little bit, and they probably even feel kind of bad about it. The trick is to tweak their corporate conscience enough to get them to make the change. If we don't get any action so be it, but you telling us not to bother isn't helping. We know the counter arguments, heard it all before many times, we've cussed and discussed it a hundred times over, now just let us try to get our cars un-gimped if you don't mind. Its not like were talking lawsuit here, were talking about mobilizing people to actually get off their butts and complain to Toyota just tp let them know we would like this addressed instead of bitching to eachother on the board because there ARE a lot of 2002 GTS owners that don't like this change. I mean do YOU have an 02 GTS 6speed? would YOU like it if I went to your car and de-tuned it so its slower than everyone elses? Probably not.

BTW - for those of you out there just learning how to drive, you have to shift BEFORE teh rev limiter to maximize acceleration, which means that with a 7700 / 7800 rev limiter we basically have to shift RIGHT when the engine starts making peak horsepower. And that just stinks.

Griffin

[gts24]

Originally posted by rapture
i dont think toyota is going to do anything about the 02 rev limiter. they have a redline on the thing for a reason. you arent supposed to go past redline anyway. anything after redline isn't (supposed to be) our business. they're probably thinking... why bother with the ricers trying to go faster. i mean.. your car wouldnt lose value i dont think. what percentage of the people that buy celicas buy it to race? think positively... oh this guy is selling and 02 and this is selling an 01... the 02 must not be as ragged out as the 01 since theres a revlimiter on it. count all the people that are complaining about the revlimiter and count all the people that have GTS 6 speeds and dont know jack about it. I've known many GTS 6 speeds that dont race at all... many that race but arent so hardcore that they want to push it an extra 500 rpm. you gotta look at toyota's perspective on this.. i'm wondering if any of you see it too. (just my .02)


This is one of the most un-researched posts I've seen on this board.
Most people that buy a 6 speed GT-S had to SEEK it out to find it. It is a tougher item to find. Those people also have done the research and know that in Japan and in Europe, this engine rev limits at 8600/8700 so we know we are just FINE going to a mere 8400 with this motor.

This car BEGINS to make peak power right at 7500/7600, with the additon of a Cold Air Intake this peak HP will keep RISING all the way to rev limit at 8400 rpms.

Why would someone that isn't serious about performance purchase the GT-S 6 speed. If they aren't serious, go get a gt or an auto.

I have friends that completely decided NOT to buy a Celica because they wanted a BRAN NEW car, but I told them about the inherent issues with the rev limiter and after research they said **** it and bought a completely different car. I guarantee you the 2002 will be shunned unless there is a fix from Toyota.
They have already lost sales JUST BECAUSE OF THIS. There was a reader letter to car and driver or motortrend and the guy basically wanted a sport compact in the Celica's category, he was set on the Celica until he saw straight line performance of the 2002.
He said , even though the Celica beat out it's competitors in every other key category he was going with the RSX-S because he could justify it because of it's better striaght line speed.

[atehrani]

Originally posted by gts24
...He said , even though the Celica beat out it's competitors in every other key category he was going with the RSX-S because he could justify it because of it's better striaght line speed...

If he wanted straight line speed, he shouldn't have purchased the RSX-S either.

[Brett]

I agree with atehrani. The difference in straight line acceleration is so minimal that its really pointless to base the sale on that difference alone.

[frederi80]

ATTENTION ALL 02 owners & supporting 00&01 owners And of course DAVID DRAPER, if your out there! David we all know you have better connections to toyota and trd than the rest of us. Let's get an 02 rev limit petition goin on, PLEASE! I don't want my car to be less valued because of a crappy rev limit that 00,01,&03 do not have. We need to join together in this and get this matter taken care of. Thnx all:)

[gts24]

Originally posted by Brett
I agree with atehrani. The difference in straight line acceleration is so minimal that its really pointless to base the sale on that difference alone.


It's fine that you say that, but you guys are the more educated buyers.

The majority of buyers out there in the world arent' on websites like www.newcelica.org and such. When they go to buy a car the only thing they look at is a single magazine. If they aren't the typical "honda only" buyer, then they are looking in other directions.

In all mags, the GT-S has outgunned the RSX-S in every category, to some those characteristics may not be that important. They look down the list of mag times and see that 0-60 and 1/4 mile is better on the RSX-S . All of a sudden they were riding the fence but that tipped them over the edge towards the RSX-S.

that's the problem here.

[beajd]

It's great you guys are trying to get toyota to replace your ecus, i mean it can't hurt to try right? But what makes you think toyota is going to replace them for you (for free no doubt)? This isn't a safety concern, so they're 99% likely NOT to do it. I mean, it's gonna cost them thousands upon thousands of dollars just so you can rev your engine up higher. Sorry to dissapoint you guys, but they're not gonna do it.

[Brett]

Originally posted by beajd
It's great you guys are trying to get toyota to replace your ecus, i mean it can't hurt to try right? But what makes you think toyota is going to replace them for you (for free no doubt)? This isn't a safety concern, so they're 99% likely NOT to do it. I mean, it's gonna cost them thousands upon thousands of dollars just so you can rev your engine up higher. Sorry to dissapoint you guys, but they're not gonna do it.

Toyota Claims it to be a glitch, that right there is grounds for them to replace it. And if they dont. I could easily see a law suit against Toyota. They are obligated to replace it. Its not our fault they messed up. Its there fault, and thats why they should have to pay the difference.

[frederi80]

:werd:

:wtc: :wtc: :wtc: :wtc: :wtc: :wtc: :wtc:
{2002 ECU}:bang:

[devil1127]

anyone know what the Zephr Blue Mica will look like?? and when the 03 celica will probably come out??

[gtsmonkee]

glad im getting a celica around sept or later. '03 celica gts here i come! anybody have an idea on what the price is going to be for the '03's?

[Tony01Gts]

Originally posted by devil1127
anyone know what the Zephr Blue Mica will look like?? and when the 03 celica will probably come out??

like spec blue and august

[Hungster]

WHat is the rev limit on a 02. I just added a new CAI and TRD exaust and my rev limit now stops at 7500 rpms is that right????

[gts24]

Originally posted by Hungster
WHat is the rev limit on a 02. I just added a new CAI and TRD exaust and my rev limit now stops at 7500 rpms is that right????


Yes that is right. do a search. you will find some resources to beat that early rev limiter

[PoweredbyRICE]

should be exactly at 7800 for 02s if i recall....00 and 01s are at 8300 or 8400 i cant remember....mine ends at 8400

[Hubs]

around what month will this car be available? And will the price be going up at all (for the gt-s)
I was looking to purchase an 2002, but the 2003 looks like its gonna be one hell of a machine.

[Camry2000]

Expect the 2003 Celica to look even faster than it does now. :chuckles:

[Brett]

I hope they reddesigned the front bumper and the rear bumper and hopefully painted the side skirts. That would be sweet ass if they did.

[SilverVision]

They did redesign the front bumper. This picture was taken by a Dutch tourist in Spain during a commercial shoot.

http://home.hetnet.nl/~jja1/images/general/newcelica.jpg

[gts24]

You have got to be kidding me. that is fuggin ugly :puke::puke: :ugh:

[celicatalk]

Oh my, that is so ugly! And I was pissed I bought a 2002 GTS! Makes me feel better!

[BrianW]

Are you sure that is a recent pic? It looks identical to the concept celica pictures that were circuilating before the 2000 model came out.

[Griffin]

Maybe its just some new European body kit.

Griffin

[Tony01Gts]

That sh*T is ugly!!! Glad I'm getting mine with the kit... I hope IT ain't fugly.

[CeliCraz]

Can't be that looks very familar though..... :wtf:

[chrissi24]

yeah, I saw that front bumper in pics when the 7th gen first came out.

[gts24]

Originally posted by chrissi24
yeah, I saw that front bumper in pics when the 7th gen first came out.

Exactly, it was one of the concepts if I remember correctly

[celicakid88]

Ok, my sis has a 2001 silver gt auto tranny, and I'll prolly be getting a car soon too....Do you guys know roughly when the 2003 comes out, and how much money it will be?? Should it be roughly the same price??

If not, I'll try to get a discounted 2002

[Griffin]

Sometime in August and teh price will be very close. You could probaly save some money by getting a 2002 especially if you are getting a GT.

Griffin

[wahili]

thats a european body kit. i forget what the name is but i have def seen it before.

[celicakid88]

nah, I dont want a gt....gt-s baby....I dont think my mom would mind getting the 2003 anyways because she bought my sisters car brand new....

Im excited, I wanna see what this thing looks like....I heard it could have side vents....

[FriedRice]

haha..... it was pure speculation.... i dont wanna look like a dummy.... i have been wrong many times in the past..... just dont get too excited over them yea? haha.... it looked awesome tho...

[celicakid88]

everybody go into chat so we can talk about the 2003 ;) :)