Worth building n/a ?

[Se7eN]

I looked around but didn't notice anything, so if there is a sticky somewhere about this lemme know :)

I was just wondering if the 7th gen (say 03-04) GTS takes pretty decent to n/a mods? I read that it comes at 180hp stock, would it be feasible to expect 200hp out of intake/header/exhaust?

Also, the GTS weighs in at 2,500, is it pretty easy to lighten the load? As far as removing more so than replacing with lighter parts.

[boothten]

would it be feasible to expect 200hp out of intake/header/exhaust?
Not really worth it, I don't think a N/A Celica has made it past 200whp if I'm not mistaken
:shrugs:

[Carmaster]

There is a sticky about this in Performance mods. ;) But yeah, the 2ZZ does respond well to mods. I don't think you'll see 200 HP from just I/H/E. Do you mean wheel HP or crank HP?

As far as weight reduction, you can lose several hundred pounds if you remove the backseat, jack, and spare tire.

[TmanGT]

na boltons= litte money/little power. fi= big money/big power.

[v3bahumut]

3" intake, larger injectors(?) Q45 TB, DD intake manifold, PPE header, test pipe, 2.5" exhaust, fully tuned PFC will get you near your 200whp mark.

SRI, eBay header and axle-back exhaust is going to net in in the 160ish whp range.

[Zero]

Short answer: no.


Long answer: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooo

:chuckles:


IMO, you're going to spend about as much as you would building the internals and buying a turbo kit, just making a lot less power.

[marc]

nobody's hit 200 whp yet.

waste of time. Go boost or focus on something else like handling and looks.

Or get a different car.

[Se7eN]

I'm coming from a car with an aftermarket turbo setup on it, so I'm not really looking to go FI again until next year when I pick up a Lotus. I'm more interested in reliability and a nice ride, but I do like the ability to "get up to speed" quickly.

[boothten]

I do like the ability to "get up to speed" quickly.
Choosing the Celica wasn't the best of options then, especially if you only keep it N/A...
:hide:

[farm]

nobody's hit 200 whp yet.

waste of time. Go boost or focus on something else like handling and looks.

Or get a different car.

Im not sure but I think many's cel just hit 200whp recently

[Se7eN]

When I say get up to speed, I just mean that if I'm trying to merge into traffic I'm not going to get rear ended because my car is slower than a Kia Rio :P If I do decide I want moar power!! then I am definitely interested in FI, although from what I've read it seems like a pretty sketchy road with the newer celica's?

[youngxlos]

go turbo or keep it stock.
n/a is well over 10k to even get close to 200 whp

[GTSchris]

When I say get up to speed, I just mean that if I'm trying to merge into traffic I'm not going to get rear ended because my car is slower than a Kia Rio
a gts will def be able to merge into traffic haha and def beat a kia rio
its a quick car (not fast), but quick

[Proximity]

There is a sticky about this in Performance mods. ;) But yeah, the 2ZZ does respond well to mods. I don't think you'll see 200 HP from just I/H/E. Do you mean wheel HP or crank HP?

As far as weight reduction, you can lose several hundred pounds if you remove the backseat, jack, and spare tire.

LOL several hundred pounds. Maybe 100.

[Proximity]

nobody's hit 200 whp yet.

waste of time. Go boost or focus on something else like handling and looks.

Or get a different car.

Someone has actually, but I'm sure they spend a god awful amount of time and money.

With DD's new intake manifold it'll make it relatively easier to achieve, but still costly.

[farm]

Like everyone said; yes, its probably possible and even easier to achieve 200whp now with all the new performance parts.
Although on the long run, F/I will give you more HP than N/A for less the cost.

[youngxlos]

^^^ the only new performance mod that could get you to 200whp is the DD manifold.
and from the way things are looking, your going to be waiting 3-6 or even more month to get one. so i would just go f/i
seriously i have spend more than 17k on n/a mods, if i had the chance to go back and do it again i would of def gone f/i.... i just don't like to leave projects i have started already.
so i will finish the n/a project, if the power is not what i was looking for i will be getting a mwr turbo kit.

[Se7eN]

Well 200hp n/a isn't a goal, just a question :)
I don't even have a celica yet - I've yet to sell my current cars so I can even buy one lol.
One thing I am interested in though is getting ridiculous gas mileage. The gts has I think somewhere around 23city/30highway mpg? How easy do you think it would be to get that to something like 30/40? I'm not very familiar with celica's (yet ;), but I would like to remove as much weight as possible.
Of course these are just ideas. Really I'm just in need of a daily driver that works and is dependable, and so far out of the 4cyl cars I have been thinking about I prefer the celica.
Btw what celica's come stock with this style body: http://www.celica.net/celicapics/celica_home.jpg
? That's what I am hoping to pick up.

[yakboyslim]

That's an action package or TRD Celica. They can be found places.

[GSBoek]

A properly working Celica GT-S manual will get you well over 23 mpg city. I'm all city and my current average is 27 mpg. My worst tank ever ever was 24.7 mpg and that included 2 hours of idling with a/c on and driving slowly for a wedding. My best tank ever was a 30 mpg, but I don't see those often.

As for N/A power, getting over 200whp is gonna cost. On an otherwise stock engine the highest right now is 190whp. That was with TRD Kazuma exhaust, DD manifold, intake and PFC. Add a racing header and engine internals and it gets even more expensive.

[youngxlos]

^^^ No Many has the highest so far.
making 210whp

[GSBoek]

Yes, but Many has cams no, so the engine itself isn't stock anymore. celica_2nr's engine is untouched.

[youngxlos]

well the idea of N/A is going all out with cams and port and polishes.
other wise the engine will never make anything above 200whp.
again not worth the money you're going to spend

[GSBoek]

Yeah, I pointed out celica_2nr's car so that the OP can see what is achievable with only bolt ons. The only thing celica_2nr didn't have in bolt ons at the time of the tuning was a header. Realistically speaking he could have made a bit more than the 190whp if he had a header, maybe 195whp or brushing closer to 200 tuned for race gas.

Even on an otherwise stock engine getting closer to the 200whp isn't cheap at all. Just a some ballpark figures:

Intake $200
DD manifold $1400
Header $300
Exhaust $500
PFC $750
Tune $200
Misc. $200

We'are talking $3500+ already with just bolt ons. After that it gets even more expensive with engine internals. An all motor build commands a 7K premium minimum.

[marc]

Im not sure but I think many's cel just hit 200whp recently

link.

[06CivicSi]

link.

Many's Celica (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edaJP3Lp0Gg)

[c3ll]

Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up ? that's where the link brought me to...

[CeLestialGT]

YOU GOT RICK ROLLED MY FRIEND HAHA so did I : D

[CeLestialGT]

I know that many is atleast 202 whp http://forums.c7performance.com/showthread.php?t=16501

[edg3h_91]

LMAO dam it rick rolled out of no where...

anyways i have always prefered a n/a build but frankly all the money you would put into the 2z for n/a will barely if even make 200. But f/i will easily pass that.

[c3ll]

myth broken ! :)

[marc]

finally

Only took 10 years to do it.

Point being, still a ridiculous waste of money.

So no, its not worth it to "build" the car NA.

[03GTSTRD]

finally

Only took 10 years to do it.

Point being, still a ridiculous waste of money.

So no, its not worth it to "build" the car NA.

It is cheaper now to get 200WHP on a bolt on 2zz. Celica_2nr made 190 WHP with an internally bone stock 2zz. All he has is a Kazuma with the DD manifold and a PFC. If he had the PPE race header he would be over 200 WHP. IMO that is pretty good for the amount of mods he has.

I do agree it is a waste of money to fully build a 2zz though for what it costs.

[LM RACE PRODUCT]

I Was Doing Some R&d On A 2zz Cylinder Head Acouple Years Back And Found That It Had So Much Potential Just In The Cylinder Head Alone I Wish I Can Remember The Guy Who Was Helping Me With That Project Cause Im So Interested In Trying To Work On That Again , In The End I Got Like 12% Gain Just From The Port Work But There Was So Much Left In There And In My Past Experiences I Found That If The Head Can Flow Then Going N/a Is Worth It But Be Prepared To Do A Lot Of Trial And Error But Thats Part Of N/a Builds You Have To Squeeze Out The Little Tiny Bits That Are Hiddin

[GSBoek]

^ I'm watching you.

[importfreak8]

heres the end all reply to this question. if you got the money to build your 2zz NA, then go for it. n/a cars arent the fastest things walking the streets, youll need FI to break land speed records.

for decent h/p FI would be better $$ spent cause youll have more power than NA. if you have $$ and not looking to run 10s in a 1/4 mile then build up your 2zz NA. /thread

[GSBoek]

finally

Only took 10 years to do it.



Nope, 9 years. That was in 2008. :chuckles:

[marc]

It is cheaper now to get 200WHP on a bolt on 2zz. Celica_2nr made 190 WHP with an internally bone stock 2zz. All he has is a Kazuma with the DD manifold and a PFC. If he had the PPE race header he would be over 200 WHP. IMO that is pretty good for the amount of mods he has.

I do agree it is a waste of money to fully build a 2zz though for what it costs.

this is called ricer math - he didn't make 200 whp, he was 10 whp away - the only people who have made 200 whp or come even close have spent 10s of thousands of dollars.

A GReddy supercharger is something like $3,000 and will put you over 200 whp no problem.

[03GTSTRD]

this is called ricer math - he didn't make 200 whp, he was 10 whp away - the only people who have made 200 whp or come even close have spent 10s of thousands of dollars.

A GReddy supercharger is something like $3,000 and will put you over 200 whp no problem.

:blah:I never said he made 200 WHP did I? It was not ricer math, it is a fact. The PPE header gives 15 or so WHP with a tune. This is also proven so where is the ricer math? If and when he adds the header he will be over 200 easy. He also won't have $3000 in his setup even with the header.

[celica_2nr]

It is cheaper now to get 200WHP on a bolt on 2zz. Celica_2nr made 190 WHP with an internally bone stock 2zz. All he has is a Kazuma with the DD manifold and a PFC. If he had the PPE race header he would be over 200 WHP. IMO that is pretty good for the amount of mods he has.

I do agree it is a waste of money to fully build a 2zz though for what it costs.
yeah i didnt spend nowhere near as much as most of the n/a guys did. for me i think building up your car n/a is a waste of money for the power gains you get. thats why im going f/i. i do respect every n/a builder on here though. they know they're not going to get the kind of power for what they're spending but they're still continuing their build.

i dont think i did bad though. lol for some boltons i made 190 whp which is a lot compared to what i was making the beginning of this year with your basic bolt on setup.

[LM RACE PRODUCT]

ive worked on turbo and all motor race cars and to be honest its all a preference. sure all motor isnt as fast as turbo cars but were talking about on a pro level. when its all said and done its what you prefer . i loove all motor its my passion thats where i started its the thrill of making power working with whats all ready there ,to be honest n/a is expensive and involves lots of r&d but lets be real here turbo isnt cheap its not a walmart product YET?!? ive played with the 2zz and there is so much potential there i had a nice set up for a mild street head ready and a niice sleeved block and custom pistons designed already soo with that said options are available but its gonna take work and patience.

[boothten]

ive worked on turbo and all motor race cars and to be honest its all a preference. sure all motor isnt as fast as turbo cars but were talking about on a pro level.
when its all said and done its what you prefer .

i loove all motor its my passion thats where i started its the thrill of making power working with whats all ready there ,to be honest n/a is expensive and involves lots of r&d but lets be real here turbo isnt cheap its not a walmart product YET?!?
ive played with the 2zz and there is so much potential there. i had a nice set up for a mild street head ready and a niice sleeved block and custom pistons designed already.

soo with that said options are available but its gonna take work and patience.
Edited for easier reading
:chuckles:

[06CivicSi]

Greddy with e-manage = boooooo :(

[LM RACE PRODUCT]

Haha thanks for the corrections ..

[LM RACE PRODUCT]

Hey this is completely off topic but does anyone know how to get a hold of a guy named mike from fontana he goes by the screen name of 00silvergts6spd he was helping me out with the head I was doing r&d work on and I lost cntact with him

[Soo__Fuego]

david (jintei) hit 206 at the hubs with i/h/e tuned on pfc with his new 04 motor, pretty sure hell hit well over 200 at the wheels with the IM/q45 tb and cams:shrugs:

im sure theres a couple lotus guys and redline9k tuned n/a cars in PR that have done 200 but keep it hush hush

[jlitman]

I think a few folks have barely crept past 200 N/A, but I've yet to see a definitive 200+ dyno where the difference can't be easily attributed to measurement error or a charitable (if still generally honest) dyno correction (i.e., breaking it by at least 10 whp).

Also, seems like all the big numbers are always reported for a dynapack. I'd be impressed to see a N/A GT-S at exactly 200 on a dynojet. Haven't seen that yet...

[GSBoek]

I'm with you on the keyword barely. So far we have a few people who just nudged past the mark. I think most of the guys currently doing all motor builds will surpass the 200whp mark by a comfortable margin.

Me I'll be perfectly happy finishing my build with the DD manifold/Q45tb/intake and 190whp. I have no reason to go any higher with the slick tarmac we have here. I'm smoking the tires on the 1-2 shift at my puny 119wtq already.

[06CivicSi]

Did Toyota take it's time when tunning the 2zz? How much gain are the guys using PFC getting out of it? Say stock engine vs stock engine with PFC?

[marc]

I think a few folks have barely crept past 200 N/A, but I've yet to see a definitive 200+ dyno where the difference can't be easily attributed to measurement error or a charitable (if still generally honest) dyno correction (i.e., breaking it by at least 10 whp).

Also, seems like all the big numbers are always reported for a dynapack. I'd be impressed to see a N/A GT-S at exactly 200 on a dynojet. Haven't seen that yet...

200 whp on a Mustang dyno would shut me up for good.

Actually it wouldn't, I'll still always chime in that the 1.6L B16 was pushing out 200 whp 15 years ago.

[GSBoek]

Did Toyota take it's time when tunning the 2zz? How much gain are the guys using PFC getting out of it? Say stock engine vs stock engine with PFC? Toyota didn't take its time. There was some power to be had from a PFC on a stock engine, specially between 5-6k. I think it was in the order of 10whp or something.

200 whp on a Mustang dyno would shut me up for good.

Actually it wouldn't, I'll still always chime in that the 1.6L B16 was pushing out 200 whp 15 years ago. We already know you won't shut up. :chuckles:

[jlitman]

200 whp on a Mustang dyno would shut me up for good.

Actually it wouldn't, I'll still always chime in that the 1.6L B16 was pushing out 200 whp 15 years ago.
I know that Mustangs are referred to as the so-called "heartbreaker" dyno, but for all its faults, at least with a dynojet the mass of the rotating drum is known, and power/torque estimates are incredibly stable.

The most wildly optimistic ones are whatever they use in Europe (rolling road???) -- those dynos claim some sort of highly suspect "flywheel" values, and if you ask Europeans, the 2ZZ has broken 200 N/A years ago.

It's all in the yardstick you use...

Show me 200+ on a dynojet with SAE correction, and I'll eat (at least the brim off of) my favorite hat.

[AMG4DVI]

The 2zz can go over 200WHP.

Let me show you what we did without EVER opening the engine on a 2zz....

http://www.wheelsjamaicahost.com/wheels_forum/index.php?topic=68964.400

this is the before the final stages\\http://www.wheelsjamaicahost.com/wheels_forum/index.php?topic=68964.250

[AMG4DVI]

in total what was spent on this car was

$200 - new vibrant muffler (install included)
$125 - used greddy emanage blue
$50 - ported stock exhaust manifold
$65 - cat removal