Turbo update 7-3-02

[David Draper]

Well, the hardest hurdle has FINALLY been overcome, namely the manifold and downpipe. Even at one of the best shops in the country, it was a three week endeavour.

I was very impressed with the quality of the design, particularly as it's 100% hand-made. Of course, as production begins, the process will largely be automated.

There are several pictures, so in consideration of our 56K guys, I've just attached links.

http://www.wctoyotasport.com/clients/ncorg/turbo/newturbo3.jpg

http://www.wctoyotasport.com/clients/ncorg/turbo/newturbo4.jpg

http://www.wctoyotasport.com/clients/ncorg/turbo/newturbo5.jpg

http://www.wctoyotasport.com/clients/ncorg/turbo/newturbo6.jpg

http://www.wctoyotasport.com/clients/ncorg/turbo/newturbo7.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------------

A bit of background

The shop (Area 51) does a number of OEM projects and I noticed car's with manufacturer's plates from Lexus, Nissan, Hyundai, and Ford on my most recent visit.

They are on a first-name basis with those at Toyota and Borg-Warner, giving us an unsurpassingly large knowlege base from which to draw. As an example, on trying to determine the best pressure and return points available in the cooling system (to run the water lines for the turbo), rather than a trial-and-error suggestion, I get, "I'll just pick up the cooling-system schematics from Toyota".

I can't tell you what a difference it makes to be working with a shop of this caliber!

I have a couple pictures from their Oxnard facility, although the project will in all likelihood be moved to the Irvine facility for the production phase.

http://www.wctoyotasport.com/clients/ncorg/turbo/area51a.jpg

Unlike the government's Area 51, this facility's security is mostly dependant on this man and two small dogs. Also shown is the only yellow L-Tuned IS300 in the U.S.

http://www.wctoyotasport.com/clients/ncorg/turbo/area51c.jpg

Beware, the next Spec V you encounter may have go-fast goodies of it's own.

http://www.wctoyotasport.com/clients/ncorg/turbo/area51d.jpg

"The future is in superchargers. Centrifugal types do the same thing as turbochargers, run cooler, and don't cause emissions problems."

Lot of other interesting things, but I'll hold my tongue on those.

We're scheduled to pick up the car on Wednesday. So we'll show you the detailed bits and pieces at that point.

David

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

David I'd kiss you!!! But instead ill have Moe give you one! Awesome stuff!!!

[byebyebaby]

Progress is good! I like it!

[nate22]

'tis a beautiful thing

[Super Pilun]

news for corollas please =)

[T3HKMAN]

Oh Man! I can barely wait!

[Fourgig]

Sweet! There's actually progress this time! When do you expect to install the system on a car for testing?

[Keyshawn]

Hehe...this is why I prefer D. Draper's updates over "other people's updates": they contain hard facts and actual pictures and are not dominated by bragging and unwarranted hype. Good luck with your project, man.:burnout:

[gavin]

woooohoooo finally the manifold is done! ok well.... just get dyno sheets and ill be happy hehehehehhe :) go david!!!!!!!!!!

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Hehe...this is why I prefer D. Draper's updates over "other people's updates": they contain hard facts and actual pictures and are not dominated by bragging and unwarranted hype. Good luck with your project, man.:burnout:

Perhaps, but his posts include his girlfriend giving me a smooch! http://www.supraforums.com/images/smilies/bigok.gif

j/k! :D

[Liquidium]

Damn...will it be much to ship that bad boy up to Canada??? Any problems doing that?

[Cabel]

Outtta my way Shawn me first, hahaha.

[Toaster]

Does Area51 have a web site??

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by David Draper


Perhaps, but his posts include his girlfriend giving me a smooch! http://www.supraforums.com/images/smilies/bigok.gif

j/k! :D

Hehe...so you're admitting I'm right then, then, huh.j/k In any case, try not to let "other people" take too much credit for your hard work and Area 51's hard work.;)

[Drag'nGT]

Unlike the EIP turbo kit...:rolleyes: PLEASE!!! Keep the kit in the same price range that you've been saying.

:bowdown: You may be worshiped. lol

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


Hehe...so you're admitting I'm right then, then, huh.j/k In any case, try not to let "other people" take too much credit for your hard work and Area 51's hard work.;)

Dont be childish everyone knows you are refering to me. I am not taking credit for all of there hard work but let me tell you something, I have helped my fair share in this project. As for false whatevers in my posts... All I posted was conversations between me and David Draper. If you have a problem with it call him and tell him your opinion on me 626-859-7400... lot easier than typing.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Oo DaRk StAr oO


Dont be childish everyone knows you are refering to me. I am not taking credit for all of there hard work but let me tell you something, I have helped my fair share in this project. As for false whatevers in my posts... All I posted was conversations between me and David Draper. If you have a problem with it call him and tell him your opinion on me 626-859-7400... lot easier than typing.

Hehe...ok, ok I must admit that I've been having a little too much fun messin' with ya lately. I promise to play nice now.;) But seriously, I was wondering: What EXACTLY did you contribute to this project other than donating your car? Make no mistake, I give ya mad props for doing that, no doubt. However, your posts often seem to imply that you had a sizeable role in actually designing and developing the turbo kit, too. That's simply something I've been a little curious about.

[oldster]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Hehe...this is why I prefer D. Draper's updates over "other people's updates": they contain hard facts and actual pictures and are not dominated by bragging and unwarranted hype. Good luck with your project, man.:burnout:

Weren't there actual pictures in Jan/Feb? The facts being presented now are no harder than those in Nov, Jan or Feb. While it may be normal to take this long to develop a kit of this magnitude Dave et al have done themselves no favors by their consistent premature enthusiasm with release dates, prices and content. IMHO

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by oldster


Weren't there actual pictures in Jan/Feb? The facts being presented now are no harder than those in Nov, Jan or Feb. While it may be normal to take this long to develop a kit of this magnitude Dave et al have done themselves no favors by their consistent premature enthusiasm with release dates, prices and content. IMHO

As always, valid points oldster. However, most of the premature hype and unrealistic release dates didn't come from D. Draper.

[David Draper]

Originally posted by oldster


Weren't there actual pictures in Jan/Feb? The facts being presented now are no harder than those in Nov, Jan or Feb. While it may be normal to take this long to develop a kit of this magnitude Dave et al have done themselves no favors by their consistent premature enthusiasm with release dates, prices and content. IMHO

Well, a lot of that is very accurate. To take people back in time for minute....

In late December, work began on the Celica. By Jan 9th, a full T3-based piping kit was done. I mean done! It's still done. I had a problem with the design because it would force people to cut the center pipe, which is expensive, and which would make removing the kit a lot more difficult. So, we tried to setup a time to get it back in again.

However, by this time, the shop was pretty well booked up for awhile, and we were on hold for a little over a month. And just about the time we were going to bring the car back in, it was involved in an accident, and couldn't be used.

That's where about two months went. And unfortunately, due to corporate pressure, I was neither at liberty to use a more expensive (read: faster and more capable) shop, nor was I at liberty to spiff the donating customers with free kits. I was financially hogtied.

Then, inexplicably, in mid to late May, the corporate ostrich pulled their collective head out of the sand, and handed over the wallet.

I still don't know exactly what happened, but I don't actually care either ;)

At any rate, we were then able to move the car to a very, very good facility, where it's being given top-priority. I placed a lot of emphasis on the construction of the manifold and downpipe, and they've obliged my concerns by dedicating the first couple of weeks to just those items.

After my visit two days ago, I'd say their estimated date of completion, namely next Wednesday, is a reasonable estimate.

The only major change as far as content was concerned was the turbocharger itself, since the K-04 makes more sense from many aspects, and it will allow us to further refine the kit.

The $3500 price tag has remained unchanged for at least this year, and may have been in effect from the onset of the project, although I really don't remember anymore, so I could be wrong.

To be quite candid, the price sits at $3500, but if I have room to add more "standard" equipment to the kit and stay within my budget, I'll do it. I'm not going to cut $200 out of the cost, and then just pocket it--it will go to making the kit better.

So anyway, that's it for now, but I hope this helps to better establish what hurdles have been encountered, and what we're doing to overcome them.

[Keyshawn]

David,
Thanks for clarifying much of what has been happening over these last 7 months. In any case, I was wondering how the turbo kit for the Spyder is progressing. Any other details about that kit?

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
David,
Thanks for clarifying much of what has been happening over these last 7 months. In any case, I was wondering how the turbo kit for the Spyder is progressing. Any other details about that kit?

Yes.....Actually, to be brutally honest, we're generally just planning on using the Top Secret kit as a basis, making modifications and adding the appropriate fuel delivery/engine management voodoo, and that's it.

The kit's due here next week, and the jig will be constructed within a week of it's arrival. The kit will then be installed on a Spyder (which is standing by), and tuned. The kit will be tuned by the tuner of the Axis Wheels Spyder.

Since that kit will use the T28, which was the same turbo as the one in James Chen's Spyder (the owner of Axis Wheels), the tuning will be quick, as he's already had two years experience on the car.

The only holdup will be parts-sourcing, and intercooler options, since I'd like to have an air-water option or a large, fan-driven cooler.

That's it for now,
David

[Drag'nGT]

That turbo spyder is quick. Does it really run a 12.9 in the quarter mile?

[David Draper]

There have been turbo Spyders turning as low as 12.0x in the 1/4 mile, actually.....

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by David Draper
There have been turbo Spyders turning as low as 12.0x in the 1/4 mile, actually.....

Streetable daily drivers, or trailer queens?

[Da Kine Guy]

Holy sh!t that's a tight design.......and by tight I mean kickass AND compact. Great work!!!

[CheezeFrog]

"The future is in superchargers. Centrifugal types do the same thing as turbochargers, run cooler, and don't cause emissions problems."HAHAHA

[nate22]

Originally posted by CheezeFrog
HAHAHA

http://icons.pauo.com/logo/edoom70.gif

[Kry]

TURBOhttp://icons.pauo.com/logo/xerx18.gif

[nate22]

uhm...no......mo' like dis

http://icons.pauo.com/logo/soc094.gif

[Keyshawn]

David,
I recall that late last year you mentioned that a company was making a turbo kit for the GT-S ( http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88 ). Whatever happened to that project?

Also, you said at one point (back when we were all pissed off at GReddy) that there would be forced induction options from TRD. Any news on that?

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
David,
I recall that late last year you mentioned that a company was making a turbo kit for the GT-S ( http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88 ). Whatever happened to that project?

Also, you said at one point (back when we were all pissed off at GReddy) that there would be forced induction options from TRD. Any news on that?

Actually, I don't know--I haven't talked to them recently. But, I'll give 'em a call next week and see what they've been up to.

[SpyderByte]

One of the guys on www.spyderchat.com runs mid 12's on his daily driver. To be more precise, he ran a 12.67 at 10 psi with a regular street setup on stock tires. He ran race gas just for peace of mind, but he didn't bump the boost higher than what he runs on the street. If he cranked the boost to take full advantage of the race octane, he would probably run 12.0x's. Just wondering, but who is the guy running 12.0x's? I haven't heard of that one myself.

[larryd]

Originally posted by CheezeFrog
HAHAHA

I agree with you on that one :)

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Hatchbeezy Fo Cheezy

[celicauk]

Originally posted by David Draper

"The future is in superchargers. Centrifugal types do the same thing as turbochargers, run cooler, and don't cause emissions problems."


I'd have to agree on that one, my supercharger is superbly engineered, unlike some including the Blitx and Hotchkis ones its a compact unit and doesn't weigh a ton. And my car sounds like a jet plane :)

Having said that, once its tuned up I'll be taking one of Davids T3 manifolds and whacking a turbo on there as well :D

Got to stay ahead of the game........

BTW - Nice work on this David, at least it'll be right once its finished, kind of the whole point really I guess.

[Super Pilun]

Hey Mr. Draper,

Sorry to sound like a prick, but do you know if Corollas (non-vvti) are going to be considered?

[nate22]

Originally posted by celicauk


I'd have to agree on that one, my supercharger is superbly engineered....................Having said that, once its tuned up I'll be taking one of Davids T3 manifolds and whacking a turbo on there as well :D
.






<GULP>............did i read right?

[veilside02celi]

are you wiling to sell me just the piping and manifold???

[celicauk]

Originally posted by nate22







<GULP>............did i read right?

Indeed you did, this time next year, she'll be a twin charged wide bodied beastie.

[nate22]

anybody have a link for cheap underwear?

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by Drag'nGT
That turbo spyder is quick. Does it really run a 12.9 in the quarter mile? Sorry, but by Toyota Supra Turbo standards, 12.9 is dog slow.

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Streetable daily drivers, or trailer queens? Anything slower than a 9 second car is a big waste of a trailer. Lots of daily driven supras with upgraded turbos are in the 10's.

[David Draper]

Originally posted by pwpanas
Sorry, but by Toyota Supra Turbo standards, 12.9 is dog slow.

Well yeah, by Top Fuel standards, the Supra is dog slow, what's your point? :rolleyes:

It also sold for half the price of a MkIV Supra so that's very apples vs. oranges.

At any rate, the Spyder approaches 12 flat at 12 psi, so with rebuilt internals at maybe 15-17 psi, it will probably fly (considering a first generation twin-charged MR2 at 330hp does the 1/4 in 10.8)

12.9 was achieved at 8 psi, although they're only getting into the mid-12's at 10.....

We'll have to see what we can get out of it.....

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by David Draper
Well yeah, by Top Fuel standards, the Supra is dog slow, what's your point? :rolleyes:

It also sold for half the price of a MkIV Supra so that's very apples vs. oranges.

At any rate, the Spyder approaches 12 flat at 12 psi, so with rebuilt internals at maybe 15-17 psi, it will probably fly (considering a first generation twin-charged MR2 at 330hp does the 1/4 in 10.8)

12.9 was achieved at 8 psi, although they're only getting into the mid-12's at 10.....

We'll have to see what we can get out of it..... Although I apprecate you comparing the supra to a top fuel dragster, keep in mind you came over to supraforums and invited supra owners to this thread specifically to post. I'm merely offering feedback based on my experience. :rolleyes:
Imo, comparing two Toyota-built production streetcars isn't all that apples vs. oranges. :confused:
FYI: 10 flat and 800+rwhp with oem internals is no prob for a single turbo'd supra. :burnout:
...as an example... (http://www.turboimports.com/swst88supra.html)
...just trying to help everyone here keep things in perspective. :)

[xi KiNG ix]

:bowdown:

[oldster]

Originally posted by celicauk



Having said that, once its tuned up I'll be taking one of Davids T3 manifolds and whacking a turbo on there as well :D



When do you expect to have it tuned and what are the problems you have encountered that have prevented it from being tuned to this point?

[David Draper]

Originally posted by pwpanas
Although I apprecate you comparing the supra to a top fuel dragster, keep in mind you came over to supraforums and invited supra owners to this thread specifically to post. I'm merely offering feedback based on my experience. :rolleyes:
Imo, comparing two Toyota-built production streetcars isn't all that apples vs. oranges. :confused:
FYI: 10 flat and 800+rwhp with oem internals is no prob for a single turbo'd supra. :burnout:
...just trying to help everyone here keep things in perspective. :)

Well yeah....but I mean, c'mon, be fair. The Supra does not belong in the same conversation as a Spyder. The Echo is a production Toyota streetcar too :D So is a Tundra, although I wouldn't compare the towing ability of a Supra to a Tundra just because they're Toyotas ;)

I mean hey, I've seen 10 second Civics, but I'm not about to compare one of those to a Supra :chuckles:

Everyone knows the Supra is a boatload of car for the money and that it's virtually limitless in ability to be upgraded. The Spyder, by contrast, is difficult to modify, so getting it into the 12's is an accomplishment.

The Supra would have to get down to 10.99 to take the same percentage off it's stock 1/4 mile time.

It's not that 12.9 is that fast when compared to every other car on the road, it's simply fast when compared to it's competitors. You'd have to spend over three times as much to get an equally quick mid-engined car, like an NSX or 911, and those would only be comparable to begin with. Granted, they'd also have boatloads of options available to make them lightning quick, but you get the idea.

The Supra is just better compared to Skyline GT-Rs, and RX-7s--cars with a front-engined, rear drive layout, with factory turbochargers, and similar potential to the Supra.

[David Draper]

And P.S., thank you for signing the letter to Toyota and for dropping by on to this site. :)

[celicauk]

Originally posted by oldster


When do you expect to have it tuned and what are the problems you have encountered that have prevented it from being tuned to this point?

Saturday morning, boked in to go on the rollers again, should be interesting :)

The single biggest holdup has been finding a suitable ECU, as you may recall, I had some fun and games with a Haltech E6K, that took up about 4 weeks of testing and getting parts etc. Once this was out, fitted the S-AFC, just not enough control. I now have a Power FC and initial feelings are that if I can't get it going on this then I may as well give up ;)

In addition, there was a minor problem with fuel, there just wasn't enough of it, this has now been addressed with some 550cc greddy injectors, I'm going to try it on those and see if I get any fuel tail off at the top end, if so I'll either upgrade the fuel pump and rail and possibly a ful return system.

I'll post the details on Saturday afternoon/evening.

Cheers

[oldster]

Thanks, looking forward to the update.....:)

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by celicauk


Saturday morning, boked in to go on the rollers again, should be interesting :)

The single biggest holdup has been finding a suitable ECU, as you may recall, I had some fun and games with a Haltech E6K, that took up about 4 weeks of testing and getting parts etc. Once this was out, fitted the S-AFC, just not enough control. I now have a Power FC and initial feelings are that if I can't get it going on this then I may as well give up ;)

In addition, there was a minor problem with fuel, there just wasn't enough of it, this has now been addressed with some 550cc greddy injectors, I'm going to try it on those and see if I get any fuel tail off at the top end, if so I'll either upgrade the fuel pump and rail and possibly a ful return system.

I'll post the details on Saturday afternoon/evening.

Cheers

Good luck with this. Can't wait to see the dynos. I give props to those that deserve it, and you definitely do, man.:burnout:

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by David Draper
...The Supra would have to get down to 10.99 to take the same percentage off it's stock 1/4 mile time.
Again, a relatively easy feat with an upgraded turbocharger and slicks.

...The Supra is just better compared to Skyline GT-Rs, and RX-7s--cars with a front-engined, rear drive layout, with factory turbochargers, and similar potential to the Supra. If there were any Skylines in the US to worry about, I might agree with you. RX7's don't come close - we easily chew them up, right along with Vipers, Porsche's, and Ferraris.

Thanks again for the invite.

[Lord Banshee]

i thought rx-7 were faster ? i really don't know i just thought. hehe i woulde buy a supra over a rx-7 anyday thou. almost had one before the celica. a 93 supra TT 16k no mods 2 owners GRRR. and my mom would not co-sign me a loan for a used car that cost that much iw as so pisseD!!!!!!! oh well i like my celica hehe

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by Lord Banshee
i thought rx-7 were faster ? ... About the only thing the RX-7's are faster at is blowing the apex seals in their engines...

[2000REDGT]

Dave, did you get the celica back yet?

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Last time I talked to David... Listen to me or not I dont care... They are waiting on a special order part should be coming in thursday or friday.

[larryd]

Originally posted by pwpanas

Again, a relatively easy feat with an upgraded turbocharger and slicks.

If there were any Skylines in the US to worry about, I might agree with you. RX7's don't come close - we easily chew them up, right along with Vipers, Porsche's, and Ferraris.

Thanks again for the invite.

and i wonder why most people dont like Supra owners, something about bigheaded..

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by larryd Originally posted by pwpanas ...If there were any Skylines in the US to worry about, I might agree with you. RX7's don't come close - we easily chew them up, right along with Vipers, Porsche's, and Ferraris....and i wonder why most people dont like Supra owners, something about bigheaded...If you consider my comments immodest, I apologize. But until you've at least ridden in a 700rwhp+ supra, I understand (from first hand experience) that it's very difficult for anyone to relate. I have personally witnessed dozens of encounters between single turbo'd mkiv supras and modded exotic 'supercars' of every shape and size...the other car almost invariably gets left like it's standing still.
The one exception I can recall recently was a race between a highly modded camero (about a 300 shot of nos) and a supra - the supra had just had the turbo upgraded, and he was still running 19" rims with narrow street tires...the camero was running fat drag radials, and the race was a 30-130 deal...needless to say, the supra spun almost the whole race and was passing the camero just as he put on his flashers at 130mph. On the other hand, keep in mind that the only two cars to beat the Hennessy twin turbo viper were single turbo'd supras. Most of us race motorcycles because we can't find any cars that are even remotely a challenge. We don't always win, but when a supra is set up right, there are no words to describe how fast it is... again, apologies for the apparent immodesty - but from my perspective, it is simiply the truth.
Anyone on this list living near the Atlanta area? I'm sure we can arrange for some first-hand knowledge... <<< Not calling anyone out - just to see some other car, a domestic perferrably, get his ass whooped :)

[nate22]

[i]
Anyone on this list living near the Atlanta area? I'm sure we can arrange for some first-hand knowledge... [/B]


Honestly? I have respect for your car- celica's big bro...
HOWEVER, you had me won over all the way w/ your reply until these last two lines, making larry's point all over again..



starting ANOTHER flame war is not my intention........but i feel it coming already....hehe...

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by nate22
Honestly? I have respect for your car- celica's big bro...
HOWEVER, you had me won over all the way w/ your reply until these last two lines, making larry's point all over again..
starting ANOTHER flame war is not my intention........but i feel it coming already....hehe... Again, my apologies - I meant you'd be invited to witness a race between two other parties - I wasn't calling anyone out. Sorry about that.

[nate22]

nice save...nah, it's cool bro :)

[Drag'nGT]

You'd feel the same way if you owned that car. I haven't seen a domestic beat a Supra nor do I ever think I will.

Yeah...Motorcycles are as close a match as these guys can find. :D

[nate22]

suprastore.com ..
check out the cars for sale link....MY GAWD!!! couple over 1000 ponies..... think one had custom headrests' redone that said "viper killer"

I'd definitely have a big head if I had the car....buddy of mine around the corner actually selling one for like 23.5(minus sound system) TT forget what year, but pulling about 450 HP

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by nate22
suprastore.com ..
check out the cars for sale link....MY GAWD!!! couple over 1000 ponies..... think one had custom headrests' redone that said "viper killer"

I'd definitely have a big head if I had the car....buddy of mine around the corner actually selling one for like 23.5(minus sound system) TT forget what year, but pulling about 450 HP Honestly, 1000 ponies in a supra is getting commonplace. There were at least four supras at the Texas 2002 meet (see last months' turbo mag) that were right at the 850 rwhp (rear wheel horsepower) mark - with 15% driveline loss, that puts them all right at about 1000 ponies.
More recently, there are at least two supras over 1000 horspower at the wheels!
1000 RWHP (that's 1150 BHP/Crank Horsepower) Supra Dyno (http://www.supraforums.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=474047)
1200 RWHP Supra Dyno (http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/merchant/dragcar.htm)
...with more to come soon...I promise ;)

[David Draper]

Originally posted by pwpanas

...with more to come soon...I promise ;)

Not if Toyota screws it up and starts stuffing V6's in the new model :mad:

I heard something about a 3.5L V6.....I really hope that's a typo and it's a 3.5L I6.....

[Suprademon]

Originally posted by David Draper


A bit of background

The shop (Area 51) does a number of OEM projects and I noticed car's with manufacturer's plates from Lexus, Nissan, Hyundai, and Ford on my most recent visit.




Yeah they are also the ones that are making a supercharger for the Lexus IS i hear its out yet its not street leagal, suprastore tried to sell it:rolleyes: and even said that it wasnt street leagal

way to get customers:rolleyes:

[Suprademon]

Originally posted by pwpanas
About the only thing the RX-7's are faster at is blowing the apex seals in their engines...

along with thier engines :D those things are soo hard to mantain
i mean even a single knock or ping can blow the engine

[gavin]

Originally posted by David Draper


Not if Toyota screws it up and starts stuffing V6's in the new model :mad:

I heard something about a 3.5L V6.....I really hope that's a typo and it's a 3.5L I6.....

Wait, supras are coming back into production??

[David Draper]

Originally posted by gavin


Wait, supras are coming back into production??

Yep, 03 or 04......unfortunately, I'm getting the distinct impression that it's going to try to compete directly with the 350Z, which means sub-$30,000, boring, almost certainly with an N/A V6 :puke:

Since the 8th generation celica will be released in Aug '03, there is the possibility that Toyota will release a new Celica, new Supra, and new 5000GT all in the same year.

Unfortunately, that scenario would leave the Celica in a position to be demoted ($25,000 for a Celica isn't going to fly if you can get a Supra for $27 or $28), and I'm not really happy with that. At the same time, the Supra would become "common", being cheaper to acquire than a Corvette, but nowhere near as capable, flexible, or exotic.

Those who don't have to consult their checkbooks will be able to swing the $85,000 or so the 5000GT will require, but the whole thing doesn't bode well for anyone thinking a MkV Supra would have the potential of the 4th gen.

On the other hand, most of the 4th-gen Supras started off in doctors, lawyers, and executives hands, and didn't really get messed with too much until the second and third owners got ahold of them, so maybe Toyota is factoring that in....that the targeted audience wouldn't be able to swing $1,000/mo payments, and that they would want a flexible engine.

MY IDEA, of course, was to use the necessary bit of a 2JZ-GTE in a 2JZ-GE, and attach a centrifugal supercharger, making it a 2JZ-GZE, with all the ability of the 2JZ-GTE, but meeting the EPA, CARB, and NTSB requirements that the 2JZ-GE meets.

But of course, I'm not on Toyota's payroll (yet :D ) and who knows if an idea on like this was already considered and discarded....

Anyway, that's all for now. I'll let you all know more as I do.

David

[oldster]

hmmm..........anything on the GT Turbo?

[larryd]

Originally posted by pwpanas
and i wonder why most people dont like Supra owners, something about bigheaded...If you consider my comments immodest, I apologize. But until you've at least ridden in a 700rwhp+ supra, I understand (from first hand experience) that it's very difficult for anyone to relate.[/B][/QUOTE]

how about riding in a 600whp AWD DSM, does that compare?? Ive been there and done that but I still dont act like I can walk on water :)

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by larryd
how about riding in a 600whp AWD DSM, does that compare?? Ive been there and done that but I still dont act like I can walk on water :) [/B]
Look bub, all I said was the a supra with upgraded turbos and slicks could easily do 10.99 in the 1/4, and that we easily chew up RX7's, Vipers, Porsche's and Ferraris. Is that acting "like I can walk on water"? I don't think so. Btw, if your friend can't do 10.99 and beat most RX7's, Vipers, Porche's and Ferraris with his 600whp DSM, then something else is wrong with either the car, or possibly it's driver. ;) On the other hand, if he does chew them up, don't pretend like he never talks about it...
:bs:

[Jr.82]

Sorry if i didn't catch this some where but is this TurboCharger for the GT or GTS.? And What size turbo are you guys using?

[larryd]

actually he ran a 10.82 @ 132, best so far.. should be in the 9s next week on the bottle.. but Im not here to participate in a pissing contest.. I was just trying to bring you back to reality and state that there is always faster cars thats all.. no need to look down on anyone or look at anyone as lesser..

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by larryd
...I was just trying to bring you back to reality and state that there is always faster cars thats all.. no need to look down on anyone or look at anyone as lesser...Since I emphatically do agree 100% that there is always a faster car (for exaple, see the supra-kill story above) and I also emphatically do agree 100% that there is no need to look down on anyone, I'd suggest that you might be the one that needs to be brought back to reality. ;)
On the other hand, I sure wish someone would explain these two points to Viper, Porsche, and Ferrari owners. In the meantime supra owners, like two (http://www.turboimports.com/swst88supra.html)of the guys (http://www.urbanracer.com/features/nira_fallnats2_article.html) I know that are already in the 9's with their mkiv supras, are having LOTS of fun showing them the error of their ways... ;)
Just an observation - I'm not sure why everyone is on my case here. This is a Celica board, and I also like Celicas. I sincerely think they look great, and I'm sure many of them are plenty fast. As you can tell, I've got a bit of a 'thing' for Viper and Porche owners, but what's the deal with calling me an unrealistic water-walker just cause I have fun beating up on non-Celicas? sheesh.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by pwpanas
Since I emphatically do agree 100% that there is always a faster car (for exaple, see the supra-kill story above) and I also emphatically do agree 100% that there is no need to look down on anyone...

I think that's the same point Larry was trying to make. I don't think he's trying to put you down, compete with you, or anything like that, man. It's all good.

[larryd]

xactly.. im not putting you down.. its cool..

[Trd360]

Forget the Supra,I WANT A TURBO FOR MY CELICA:angry: :angry: :angry: sorry about that,needed to blow off some steam.:burnout:

[gavin]

Haha, yeah, getting back to the celica... David: Will you have different stage kits with the K-04 kit?? as in.. (i think you were talking about a 6 psi, 8 psi, and 10 psi kit.....) the 6 would bump it up to 200 or so 8 230 or so 10 260 or so? (i could be totally off.. just talking from memory :) and maybe a package with a lot of cool internals like pistons etc for the 10 psi or up kit... what will the kit you release in a week or such be set at? (i assume 6psi) you are going to dyno this before you sell it right???????????? and when would the upgraded kits 8 or 10 be coming out.. (approximates like 2 years or 2 months :) Thanks!! :)

[gavin]

and do you know exactly or close to it what will be included in the package yet?

[X-EVIL-X]

i would be big headed if i had a car that ran 10's...:)
but the thing is would you rather have a ferrari than a supra running that fast???
i would still choose the ferrari:):):)
there are things faster than it but its a completly different thing.
i would be proud to be in the 10's on my everyday car too though.

[TheX-Man]

Originally posted by David Draper


Since the 8th generation celica will be released in Aug '03, there is the possibility that Toyota will release a new Celica, new Supra, and new 5000GT all in the same year.


This is news to me. Am I the only one that's going:confused: :confused: :confused: So the 7th gen will only be 2000-2003? With the 2004 already being a redesign?

[killerm]

I'm confused too. I thought that ther was only going to be slight mods to the appearance of the 7th gen for '03. It was just a conversation I heard. Am I wrong? Is there really going to be a new Celi out already? What will that do for us? Is that going to kill our aftermarket???

[David Draper]

Originally posted by TheX-Man


This is news to me. Am I the only one that's going:confused: :confused: :confused: So the 7th gen will only be 2000-2003? With the 2004 already being a redesign?

That's the word coming down the pipe....

[Suprademon]

Originally posted by pwpanas

On the other hand, I sure wish someone would explain these two points to Viper, Porsche, and Ferrari owners. In the meantime supra owners, like two (http://www.turboimports.com/swst88supra.html)of the guys (http://www.urbanracer.com/features/nira_fallnats2_article.html) I know that are already in the 9's with their mkiv supras,



actually :Dthere is one you forgot, Dusty *owner of MVP motorsports* who has the worlds fastest street supra
and does 8 seconds NO NOS

http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/default.asp

[CheezeFrog]

I love Supras. 1000hp potential is precisely why that's going to be my next car. Forget about a N/A V6 MkV...

[cool2miketlu]

Originally posted by pwpanas
On the other hand, I sure wish someone would explain these two points to Viper, Porsche, and Ferrari owners. In the meantime supra owners, like two (http://www.turboimports.com/swst88supra.html)of the guys (http://www.urbanracer.com/features/nira_fallnats2_article.html) I know that are already in the 9's with their mkiv supras, are having LOTS of fun showing them the error of their ways... ;)


Your Supra is not stock, if stock it would be hard to beat any of the Vipers/Porches out there. Since you modified your Supra then you should be competing with modified Porches and stuff, like Ruff Porches or even custom modified Porches. Now I am not raggin on ya either but you should not bring down Vipers/Porches/ and Ferarris. I would love to have either one of those cars.

[DaksGT]

I got driven in a 450 hp supra a couple of weeks back it did 13 flat in the 1/4 I belive, I've been in civics and owned civics that are plaenty faster but it still felt damn good, the supra was from
www.jrponline.com it was steves.

[David Draper]

Originally posted by DaksGT
I got driven in a 450 hp supra a couple of weeks back it did 13 flat in the 1/4 I belive, I've been in civics and owned civics that are plaenty faster but it still felt damn good, the supra was from
www.jrponline.com it was steves.

Geez!!! Unless J-Ballz was driving, that's horrible! It does 13.2 or 13.4 stock I believe....

[DaksGT]

Originally posted by David Draper


Geez!!! Unless J-Ballz was driving, that's horrible! It does 13.2 or 13.4 stock I believe....
Thats what he told me, I'm not the one to second guess his time

[cool2miketlu]

David... any update on the turbo kit??
Please post up!! I got turboitis need info!!
Actually I need the kit but info will help some, but if you want to cure me gotta get that turbo out.

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by Suprademon



actually :Dthere is one you forgot, Dusty *owner of MVP motorsports* who has the worlds fastest street supra
and does 8 seconds NO NOS

http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/default.asp
Actually you didn't read my posts (above) very carefully. I already mentioned him:

Originally posted by pwpanas
Honestly, 1000 ponies in a supra is getting commonplace....More recently, there are at least two supras over 1000 horspower at the wheels!
...
1200 RWHP Supra Dyno (http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/merchant/dragcar.htm)...

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by X-EVIL-X
i would be big headed if i had a car that ran 10's...:)
but the thing is would you rather have a ferrari than a supra running that fast???
i would still choose the ferrari:):):)
there are things faster than it but its a completly different thing.
i would be proud to be in the 10's on my everyday car too though.
1) If there's a 10 second Ferrari out there, I haven't run into it yet.
2) If there were a 10 second Ferrari, I'd arrange several 9 second supras to show him some taillights.
Fast is nice. Faster is better.

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by cool2miketlu
Your Supra is not stock, if stock it would be hard to beat any of the Vipers/Porches out there...
Oh, ok ... we pulled two hoses in the engine bay and then we creamed the vipers and porsches. You caught us red-handed. :naughty:
I guess we'll have to give them the same advantage...they can pull any hoses they wish in their engine bay and bring it on.

...Since you modified your Supra then you should be competing with modified Porches and stuff, like Ruff Porches or even custom modified Porches....
Exactly...which is why it was SO much fun when two of my friends creamed the Hennessy twin turbo Viper. :)

...Now I am not raggin on ya either but you should not bring down Vipers/Porches/ and Ferarris. I would love to have either one of those cars. Go overpay for one of those slow vehicles, and supra owners can have lots of fun beating you too. ;)

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by DaksGT
I got driven in a 450 hp supra a couple of weeks back it did 13 flat in the 1/4 I belive, I've been in civics and owned civics that are plaenty faster but it still felt damn good, the supra was from
www.jrponline.com it was steves. Any car can go slow with the wrong tires and the wrong driver. A 450hp mkiv supra should easily be in the mid 12's with good tires and a good driver on a good track. Also, lots of "bpu++" supras are closer to 500hp and they're in the low 12's or high 11's.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by cool2miketlu
David... any update on the turbo kit??
Please post up!! I got turboitis need info!!
Actually I need the kit but info will help some, but if you want to cure me gotta get that turbo out.

:werd: Any updates?

[Drag'nGT]

Originally posted by X-EVIL-X
i would still choose the ferrari:):):)

I'd still rather have the Supra... :D

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

There are a few hoses they had to special order. They were suppose to be in today or tomorrow.

[cool2miketlu]

Originally posted by pwpanas

Oh, ok ... we pulled two hoses in the engine bay and then we creamed the vipers and porsches. You caught us red-handed. :naughty:
I guess we'll have to give them the same advantage...they can pull any hoses they wish in their engine bay and bring it on.


Exactly...which is why it was SO much fun when two of my friends creamed the Hennessy twin turbo Viper. :)

Go overpay for one of those slow vehicles, and supra owners can have lots of fun beating you too. ;)

Comeon some Honda owners that totally modify their Civics that can do 9's may say you overpay yours, so would you go buy their Civic than your Supra? A nice car is a nice car you can not deny Porche and Ferarri is nice, don't tell me you don't want one at all.
This has drag on way to far, neways I do like Supras but if someone put a Supra 10 sec car and a Ferarri Modena in front of me and want me to choose I go for Modena.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by cool2miketlu


Comeon some Honda owners that totally modify their Civics that can do 9's may say you overpay yours, so would you go buy their Civic than your Supra?

Great point! Quick 1/4 mile times ain't everything.

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by cool2miketlu
Comeon some Honda owners that totally modify their Civics that can do 9's may say you overpay yours, so would you go buy their Civic than your Supra? ... If that same Civic could also hang with the Supra repeatedly braking and accelerating on a roadcoarse, also hang running over 200mph, be comfy with a/c & cruise, and be reliable for 100,000 miles of daily driving, then sure, why not - I guess I'd have to consider giving up my supra for this mythical Civic supercar. Thing is, that's a pipe dream - there's no Civic that's an equivalent all-around sportscar like the supra.

...A nice car is a nice car you can not deny Porche and Ferarri is nice, don't tell me you don't want one at all...I guess I'd take an F40 or an F50 if it were given to me, but no, I'd never pay anything near what they're selling for. They're just not worth it when a modded mkiv supra will outperform it in EVERY category.

...This has drag on way to far, neways I do like Supras but if someone put a Supra 10 sec car and a Ferarri Modena in front of me and want me to choose I go for Modena...Modenas are SLOW. We'd enjoy handing you your ass - ....until you got smart and sold the Modena, bought a modded mkiv, and put $175K+ in the bank. :chuckles:

[oldster]

pwpanas, Supras are fast, do you have anything else constructive to add?

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by oldster
pwpanas, Supras are fast, do you have anything else constructive to add?

:werd: Pwpanas, your point has been made (over and over and....) Let's move on.

[Griffin]

Just to throw some objectivity into the mix...

I wanna start by saying that I am the most die-hard Toyota guy you will meet, for many reasons. I have drivern a 550HP TT Supra, and ridden in a 400HP, a 650HP, and a lot of stock TTs. I loved em all. BUT... the fastest car I have ever been in (at least according to my butt dyno) was a 911 TT built by a company in FL. Called autosports south. They built it for some rich jerk, put about 25K of work into it, and that I know of never got to dyno it because he came to take it for a weekend and wrecked the thing down in Miami the night he got it.... (Bastard... it was a work of art (and I mean the engne not the car)). I wasn't driving so maybe thats coloring my perceptions, but the acceleration was ungodly, and the handling was awsome. I'm glad I didn't get to drive it, I would have killed myself. It was easily 600+ HP, and this was back when the Supra was just hitting teh dealers showrooms. And I have seen much faster street cars, including 1000HP blown big blocks back in huston, and Grand nationals that would run 9s. Are any of them as EASY to mod as a Supra? I think not. But it can and has been done. There are also some positively LETHAL RX-7s on the autocross & SCCA tracks, as well as on the strip. Don't sell Able's new 3 rotor short, when they get the bugs out of the fueling system we may be in for some surprises. Theres a lot to be said for being able to stretch a gear to 12K....

anyways yeah, Supras are awsome, but even if you run 10s if you've never been spanked its because you've never run against the right crowd. I've seen 9 second NA drag trucks that ran for money down in the homestead / hialejah (sp) area. They are out there.

Just for the record, I'd still take the supra, cause its an awsome cruiser as well as a great sportscar and drag car. If I was single, It would be a different story though - Porsche or Ferrari for cruising round town and pickin up the ladies.

Of course, I can't afford any of em, so to hell with it - Long live the Celica AllTrac :)

Griffin

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by oldster
pwpanas, Supras are fast, do you have anything else constructive to add? I WAS adding constructive items - the poster suggested a Civic was faster, and my response brought in additional criteria (roadracing, top speed, reliability, comfort, etc.). Pardon me all to heck if you can't recognize new information.

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
:werd: Pwpanas, your point has been made (over and over and....) Let's move on. I'm ready to let this die anytime, and I'd love to move on. You might take the trouble to note that ALL of my posts are RESPONSES.
:stupid:

[nate22]

Originally posted by larryd


and i wonder why most people dont like Supra owners, something about bigheaded..


Oh shoot....lookee what i found! http://forums.bioware.com/_global/images/smiles/icon_biggrinno.gif

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by nate22
Oh shoot....lookee what i found! http://forums.bioware.com/_global/images/smiles/icon_biggrinno.gif You guys make me feel like I'm a fish swimming in a tank filled with flesh-eating Barracudas. Every time I successfully defend an attack from someone, someone else counter-attacks by calling me bigheaded, repetative or unrealistic. It's like y'all can't stand it when I make decent points.
Again, I've got nothing against Celicas or Celica owners. If you guys want this thread to die, then simply let it! In the meantime, this fish ain't backin' down.

[nate22]

http://forums.bioware.com/_global/images/smiles/icon_sleep2.gif

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by pwpanas
You guys make me feel like I'm a fish swimming in a tank filled with flesh-eating Barracudas. Every time I successfully defend an attack from someone, someone else counter-attacks by calling me bigheaded or unrealistic. It's like y'all can't stand it when I make decent points.
Again, I've got nothing against Celicas or Celica owners. If you guys want this thread to die, then simply let it! In the meantime, this fish ain't backin' down.

Is anyone on this thread dissing the Supra or questioning how fast it is? No. However, some people just prefer a Ferrari or Porsche over the Supra. You have your own opinion. Let those people have theirs. Move on.

[pwpanas]

:wiggle: :popcorn:
Originally posted by Keyshawn
Is anyone on this thread dissing the Supra or questioning how fast it is? No. However, some people just prefer a Ferrari or Porsche over the Supra. You have your own opinion. Let those people have theirs. Move on. I never said their opinion a Ferrari was better is a bad opinion. I just said that a supra will eat them for lunch, and that they'll overpay for a slow car. As I've also said, I'd love to move on.

[nate22]

:wiggle: :bang:

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by pwpanas
:wiggle: :popcorn:
I never said their opinion a Ferrari was better is a bad opinion. I just said that a supra will eat them for lunch, and that they'll overpay for a slow car.

You made that point many posts ago. Hell, I agree with your opinion. However, you've been pretty much redundant since that point was made very early on.

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by nate22
:wiggle: :bang: Hmmm...resorting to violence?
:cool: ...must be frustrating...

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
You made that point many posts ago. Hell, I agree with your opinion. However, you've been pretty much redundant since that point was made very early on. I wasn't making THAT point again! I was correcting someone that said I wasn't letting people have their own opinions...

[Drag'nGT]

Wasn't this a thread for the turbo for the GT??? :confused:

[nate22]

yesh....

what is forced induction, btw? ;)

[F22-Raptor]

OK all I wanna update on the Celica turbo...

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by F22-Raptor
OK all I wanna update on the Celica turbo...

Agreed. The Supra topic had become repetitive many posts ago. Hopefully, there is a turbo update soon to break up the monotony.

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Agreed. The Supra topic had become repetitive many posts ago. Hopefully, there is a turbo update soon to break up the monotony. If I might join in on the Celica discussion, how much boost can the celica engine take? Let's say we put a relatively big turbo on it, like a Turbonetics TS04 with a .58 a/r exhaust housing, put bigger fuel injectors on it, and ran it up to 20psi of boost - would the engine survive (assuming proper tuning)?

[David Draper]

Originally posted by pwpanas
:wiggle: :popcorn:
I never said their opinion a Ferrari was better is a bad opinion. I just said that a supra will eat them for lunch, and that they'll overpay for a slow car. As I've also said, I'd love to move on.

"I never said she was dumb and ugly, just that you should gag her and put a bag over her head" :rofl:

[David Draper]

Although on the other hand, pwpanas has generated A LOT of conversation here, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Maybe you should drop by Off Topic. They're turning into vegetables over there :)

[oldster]

Originally posted by David Draper
Maybe you should drop by Off Topic. They're turning into vegetables over there :)

Just what we need, more manure to make the vegetables grow faster......:rolleyes:

[David Draper]

Originally posted by oldster


Just what we need, more manure to make the vegetables grow faster......:rolleyes:

Well....it works don't it? :gap:

Although, I must admit, :werd:

[Drag'nGT]

OT Krew owns everyone!

Didn't you get the PM???? Larry no longer runs this place. The Alliance said they're in charge. :D

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by pwpanas
If I might join in on the Celica discussion, how much boost can the celica engine take? Let's say we put a relatively big turbo on it, like a Turbonetics TS04 with a .58 a/r exhaust housing, put bigger fuel injectors on it, and ran it up to 20psi of boost - would the engine survive (assuming proper tuning)?

Thanks for moving on to a new topic. In any case, are you talking about a 1zz with stock internals, or a fully built engine? This is a great question, but ultimately one no one here knows yet, because no one here has tried to run that much boost with the 1zz yet. I wonder how much the MR-2 Spyder guys have tried?

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
...are you talking about a 1zz with stock internals, or a fully built engine?...oem internals.

Originally posted by Keyshawn
...This is a great question, but ultimately one no one here knows yet, because no one here has tried to run that much boost with the 1zz yet.Can I ask another question: Why not? Weld up a header, slap on the turbo, and go!

Supra History: Way back when modded supras were rare, Turbonetics spec'd the TS04 as the "turbo of choice" for the 3-liter supra. The T66 was considered far too large and laggy. Nowadays, T72 turbos are relatively common on supras and several have gone up to as big as an 88mm turbo, on the same engine Turbonetics said a T66 was too big for! The moral of the story is boost it till it breaks, then back it of a tad. Someone has to go for the gusto...

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


Thanks for moving on to a new topic. In any case, are you talking about a 1zz with stock internals, or a fully built engine? This is a great question, but ultimately one no one here knows yet, because no one here has tried to run that much boost with the 1zz yet. I wonder how much the MR-2 Spyder guys have tried?

Actually, beyond 12 psi, the 1ZZ's con rods start bending.

This was one of my main problems with Toyota:

The Supra's end-all/be-all super con rods cost me about $20 more a set than the 1ZZ's toothpicks......

The question is "Why?" would Toyota put weak connecting rods in a "sports" car? Obviously, it doesn't cost much more to put strong ones in, so what's the problem?

But at any rate, that's the situation, which is why small, quick-spooling turbochargers are usually the only ones considered for Celicas.

[cool2miketlu]

No update David?? I am dieing here!!

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by David Draper


Actually, beyond 12 psi, the 1ZZ's con rods start bending.

This was one of my main problems with Toyota:

The Supra's end-all/be-all super con rods cost me about $20 more a set than the 1ZZ's toothpicks......

The question is "Why?" would Toyota put weak connecting rods in a "sports" car? Obviously, it doesn't cost much more to put strong ones in, so what's the problem?

But at any rate, that's the situation, which is why small, quick-spooling turbochargers are usually the only ones considered for Celicas.

Curious, how do the 2zz's connecting rods compare to the 1zz's? Do they share the same weakness?

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


Curious, how do the 2zz's connecting rods compare to the 1zz's? Do they share the same weakness?

Good question....So far no one has been dumb enough to try and find out :D

[gavin]

and the celica GT turbo is??

[David Draper]

I'm workin' on it, I'm workin' on it :)

I have a meeting with the owner of the computer manufacturing company tomorrow to discuss the production issues, pricing, and so forth.

Also, we will have to iron out whatever the main goals are going to be, what safety concerns I have, etcetera.

That's about it for now, but I think that should do for an update. I'll have pictures, info, and lots more tomorrow or Thursday.

Actually, Thursday probably.....

[Griffin]

Originally posted by David Draper


The question is "Why?" would Toyota put weak connecting rods in a "sports" car? Obviously, it doesn't cost much more to put strong ones in, so what's the problem?


"Value" engineering

Fuel Economy (lower inertial mass to have to toss around = less lost power)

The 1ZZ was NOT developed as a hard core performance motor like the 2ZZ was. I gauran-damn-tee you that at 11.5:1 the 2ZZ bottom end has a whole lot more stout going on.

Griffin

[pwpanas]

Originally posted by David Draper
Actually, beyond 12 psi, the 1ZZ's con rods start bending. ... But at any rate, that's the situation, which is why small, quick-spooling turbochargers are usually the only ones considered for Celicas.Much thx for the info! :)

...This was one of my main problems with Toyota:

The Supra's end-all/be-all super con rods cost me about $20 more a set than the 1ZZ's toothpicks......

The question is "Why?" would Toyota put weak connecting rods in a "sports" car? Obviously, it doesn't cost much more to put strong ones in, so what's the problem?...Although the rods are plenty strong (in the 9's with a 3400lb. car), LOTS of 2JZ-GTE connecting rods have bent under the evil spray of nitrous. Although most 'built' 2JZ-GTE owners went with Crower and many (including me) went with Carillo rods, the real solution to this is being sure to retard your ignition timing when you spray...the extra strength of Carillo's is mainly for 'insurance'...

[Lord Banshee]

Pics and more info today humm humm???

PLEASE!!!!!!!!

[David Draper]

Well, I went to the computer manufacturing company yesterday to discuss the tuning aspects, production aspects, suppliers, etc. etc.

It went well, although there is a slight delay at the other facility, so we won't be moving it till next week.

Next week, all stock components are going back on, and the baseline dyno will be done.

By Friday, it will have the turbo equipment in place, will have the piggy back ECU on, and will have the injectors in--it's believed that these should be the only necessary fuel delivery modifications, so it's just fine tuning from there.

Getting close! :D

[Lord Banshee]

ohhhh

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by David Draper

By Friday, it will have the turbo equipment in place, will have the piggy back ECU on, and will have the injectors in--it's believed that these should be the only necessary fuel delivery modifications, so it's just fine tuning from there.

Getting close! :D

David,
I'm curious, at what hp and/or boost levels does the stock fuel pump and non-return-style fuel system become inadequate? I was wondering what the limit was before those wanting to turn up the boost had to get more extensive fuel system modifications. Thanks for the update.

[Super Pilun]

sorry mr. draper if you addressed this already

any news for corollas?

[xi KiNG ix]

Originally posted by David Draper

It went well, although there is a slight delay at the other facility, so we won't be moving it till next week.
:nono: haven't we been delayed long enuf?! =/

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Keyshawn


David,
I'm curious, at what hp and/or boost levels does the stock fuel pump and non-return-style fuel system become inadequate? I was wondering what the limit was before those wanting to turn up the boost had to get more extensive fuel system modifications. Thanks for the update.

Well, that's a very good question. We're having the fuel pump flow tested at RC Engineering, although that is mostly to determine max capability rather than suitability to this project.

I would think the fuel rail is going to be the major obstacle, as it's relatively small, with a "pulsation dampner" a.k.a. pressure regulator in the rail. Going to have to have that beast tested as well.

As it is, we're having some butt-whooper billet aluminum return fuel rails produced that should be available for less than $200 once they hit production.

A definite goal is to determine the maximum capabilities of this engine, fuel delivery system, and air induction hardware.

Originally posted by Super Pilun
sorry mr. draper if you addressed this already

any news for corollas?

Mr. Chen!, it hadn't been addressed, so here goes. Uh well, actually, there isn't a whole lot to report, other than the manifold should fit the Corolla, so that part should be out of the way. I've got to get the Celica done first, so that's the whole focus at the moment. Sorry :(

Originally posted by xi KiNG ix
:nono: haven't we been delayed long enuf?! =/

Well......the chief fabricator's wife had a baby, so he took a week off. Sorry Mouser, I know that's some hard cheddar to chew on :p j/k :D Don't worry, we'll be as quick as possible....starting next week :)

[Drag'nGT]

Hmmmm...

Hey David. If we're gonna be doing alot of work installing this turbo kit do you think that we will have internals to go along with this kit? I mean as long as we're in there lets crack open the block and replace those toothpicks. :D

Will there be any internals on the way sortly after this kit?

[aZnTrD2k]

hey David, when the turbo's on the car, can i go there and check it out:D??

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Drag'nGT
Hmmmm...

Hey David. If we're gonna be doing alot of work installing this turbo kit do you think that we will have internals to go along with this kit? I mean as long as we're in there lets crack open the block and replace those toothpicks. :D

Will there be any internals on the way shortly after this kit?

As I understand it, connecting rods and pistons are already available, although I need to verify pricing and availability.

Unless things change dramatically, the standard kit will only necessitate removal of the following stock components, so no internal work whatsoever:

- Exhaust manifold
--- Replace the stock exhaust manifold with the turbo manifold/turbocharger/downpipe combo.

- Lower engine plastics
--- Probably at least one will have to me modified or removed entirely.

- Oil Pan
--- The kit includes a new Toyota oil pan with a drain-back port installed. It should take the same amount of time to install the new pan as it would've taken to modify the old one, and this way the port is always in the right location, and there's no fear of metal shavings in the lubrication system.

- Air filter and intake box
--- The air intake box is replaced with an air filter to the turbo and an air pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body.

- Front bumper cover
--- Although you could leave it on, this sort of thing is always easier with the bumper off

- Fuel Rail & Injectors
--- Kit comes with new injectors which require removal of the fuel rail to replace.

Of course, the intercooler and the related piping has to be installed. And the piggy-back ECU will have to be installed.

There is a good chance we may be able to include a full plug-in harness which would shorten the install time on the ECU considerably. That's just a maybe btw, so we'll have to see--but it looks pretty good.


Originally posted by aZnTrD2k
hey David, when the turbo's on the car, can i go there and check it out:D??

You bet!! I want as many people to come down and go for a ride as possible!! :D

[gavin]

wow.. this sounds good... what boost is the first kit running? and and and the exhaust manifold will come off without pulling the engine right? and I could do this with just a few jacks and jackstands? no lift required? :) and lastly will the kit come with install instructions for those of us who want to do it ourselves?

[David Draper]

Originally posted by gavin
wow.. this sounds good... what boost is the first kit running? and and and the exhaust manifold will come off without pulling the engine right? and I could do this with just a few jacks and jackstands? no lift required? :) and lastly will the kit come with install instructions for those of us who want to do it ourselves?

Hey pal, it's $2.50/question :D j/k

6 to 6.5 psi, unless a higher rate can be run safely and has to be run to meet power goals. I would say it's 99% certain to be 6 - 6.5.

The exhaust manifold is a hassle on the Celica, and it will almost certainly necessitate dropping the center crossmember to get it out in a timely fashion. That doesn't mean you have to pull the engine, but you will have to support it while the crossmember is out.

I wouldn't recommend doing this without a vehicle lift. Frankly I wouldn't recommend doing it unless you were a professional. I mean, it doesn't require fabrication, and therefore a technician that can change oil pans, injectors, and that sort of thing should be able to do it without too much hassle, but if you haven't ever changed a FIPG oil pan, you probably shouldn't be trying to install this yourself.

The winner of the longest sentence award is me :)

The kit will have instructions and pictures and all that. The instructions will be formatted so as to be easy to understand if you're a technician, and will have special highlights of any hidden hassles.

Hope this answers everything pretty clearly! :)

David

[cool2miketlu]

Will this kit allow the strut bar (any brand) Lower arm bar (Cusco or Tanabe) stay on? Not sure if this is a good question but I do have both of those parts (APR strut bar and Cusco lower). just kinda wondering.
also with the piggy back ECU will it need to be changed if we go to stage 1~4 upgrades? or is it adjustable to fit higher psi, I am not technical on this but just wondering since we have no info regarding this piggy back ECU.

[gavin]

Thanks for the info david :)

[David Draper]

Page 4 OwN3D!!

Whooooops, wrong forum! :D

As for the ECU's, the one that comes with the kit will probably have to be hardcoded to satisfy CARB requirements. I was thinking it would be reprogrammable, but it just doesn't look like CARB will be okay with that.

Also, the computer that can control timing is significantly more expensive than the one without. The tuner's opinion is that the car can run over 8 psi without retarding timing, so odds are the base kit's ECU will not control timing.

So, for those who want to go to higher boost levels, things like a laptop programmable computer, a high-flow and return-equipped fuel rail, larger injectors (?, as those included with the stock kit may be more than sufficient to run 12 or more psi), and other items will be tested and eventually sold.

The T3 based kit appears to be ready to be replicated and sold, although I have to verify that. A T3 or T4 turbo would be more than enough to satisfy any desired output demands.

So anyway, there are a lot of things being looked at right now....

[gavin]

yay.. now all i want is dynos.. hehehehehehehehehee :D i can't wait for this to be out :)

[RYANGT]

David, I think this Turbo project your working on is freaking awesome, mad props, I do have a few questions thoug...
1st, just so you know, I'm a total nooob when it comes too turbo, so bare w/my novice questions....now...
I keep on hearing about the psi boosts....being 6,8 and so on...what exactly does this mean??
2nd, what is your estimate about horsepower, torque, and price with each stage of turbo?
And last.......I have a GT Auto, would this turbocharger work w/my automatic? thanks

[cool2miketlu]

more psi more HP you will get, most people estimate 1p.s.i. = 10HP. I believe the prototype car is an automatic GT, so it should work on your car.

[RYANGT]

cool2mike.....thanks for helping me out w/my questions~

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Maybe with some engine building the automatic could help some. Some of the fastest cars in the world are automatics.

[oldster]

Originally posted by Oo DaRk StAr oO
Maybe with some engine building the automatic could help some. Some of the fastest cars in the world are automatics.

More accurately, there are some very fast automatics. :)

[Trd360]

1)Just had a crazy idea.Will the rods of a gts fit into a gt?I don't like the idea of us gt owners having toothpicks for rods.Maybe it won't work,but it will be a nice idea if it will.2)Are the gts rods forged like what Honda and Nissan are doing.3)Maybe gts owners can replace there pistons with gt pistons and run more boost.We have low com. pistons so it will help them.Just some crazy ideas so you guys can :chuckles: at.

[RYANGT]

why is it that the Supra automatics can hang w/the manuals if not beat a manual, yet the Celica auto's can't even compete with the manuals?? would this change if turbo was implemented, because of smoother shifts & less loss of boost during shifts? just a thought that came 2 mind after reading the replies too one of my post's about auto supras~

[cool2miketlu]

The reason is Supra TT tranny when it goes into the next gear the rpm does not drop that fast, so when it gets into next gear it is still in the turbo kicking in rpm range so the turbo keeps pushing. Stock automatics is actually faster than stock manual because you can not shift fast enough to next gear to keep car in boosting mode. Now alot of people will wonder if it is the same on this car, I highly doubt it.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

The automatic guys will get a special computer that will make it shift faster c/o david draper!

[Phaseshift]

With different boost levels, I'm wondering how VVT-i is affected? I'm going to guess that it's going to be disabled?

(Please ignore if this question has been asked and answered already.)

[Xlr8_10]

hum.. im curious also about how VVT-I will fit into all of this turbo madness..

[Trd360]

How does a BOV work on a automatic tranny?

[Trd360]

Does the BOV have the same sound as a 5 speed when changing gears.

[Lord Banshee]

proball,y i do not see why it make a different sound with a differnt tranny other then the automatic might not lose as much pressure or maybe vice verse. i am learning my self so i am not sure. thats my $.02

[TRD-GT]

looking good so far...pics..more pics...dyno's...plz...

[SpyderByte]

To answer the above question: "What is PSI?"

Well, it stands for Pounds per Square Inch. It's the same type of rating as the PSI on your tires except instead of pressurising your tires, you're pressurizing your engine.
To understand how boost affects your engine's HP, you must first understand atmospheric pressure. Even though we don't really feel it, the atmosphere exerts pressure on us (and our engine's intake). This is caused by Earth's gravity pulling the atmosphere towards itself and the weight of the air above literally compressing the air below to generate this pressure. For the most part atmospheric pressure at sea level is about 14.2 PSI (lower as elevation goes up). It can change based on temperature and weather patterns, but not by much.
Now, back to our engine. When a piston goes down on the intake stroke it creates a vacuum or "hole" in the atmosphere. The surrounding air naturally wants to fill in this "hole" and in a well tuned engine with good flow, it will be able to fill it in so that it has nearly the same 14.2 PSI as the surrounding air by the time the intake valve closes. This 14.2 PSI then, is the limitation of an N/A engine (not counting ram air).
You are not going to get more air (and therefore matching fuel and power) than this into the engine unless you force it in. Aha, forced induction. It all makes sense now. Enter "Boost". Boost is the amount of EXTRA PSI we are forcing into the engine. Therefore an engine with 6 pounds of boost actually has 14.2 PSI + 6 PSI = 20.2 PSI. Now that we know that our baseline for N/A is 14.2 PSI, it is very simple to calculate the effect of boost in terms of HP. If we have an engine making 140 HP N/A (14.2 PSI), then adding say, 7.1 PSI of boost, would give us an extra 50% more power (7.1 --> 50% of 14.2) for a total of 210 HP. Similarly 10 PSI would give us 10/14.2 or 70% more power. Now, this is not a perfect guide since turbos introduce more heat which takes back some of the HP (one reason why intercoolers are so good) and superchargers add a little heat, but also some drag to spin them. Still, this is a pretty good guide.

The funny thing is, after this massive explaination, the bottom line is that in the Celica GT engine 1 PSI boost = 9.86 HP or damn near the 10 HP someone quoted earlier. However, on an engine making 280, the gain would be 19.72

Also, on a side note, you may have seen chips or turbos rated in "Bars" like .8 Bar or 1.1 Bar. A bar is one atmosphere of pressure (14.2) so a 1 Bar chip would be 14.2 PSI of boost.

Sorry for the insanely long explaination. I just got carried away.

[larryd]

the one thing you miss out on that though is boost is not the same from turbo to turbo.. running 7lbs on a T25 or CT26 or something isnt the same as tunning 7lbs on a 20G TD06..

[gavin]

Yay, got my *special* TRD dual exhaust installed today! and my LSD/Clutch/Flywheel will be installed Tomorrow!!! and my turbo... how's myy turbo going david *tehe* installed whenever they finish this darned thing :) dyno dyno dyno dyno hehe sorry... hurry david!! :)

[David Draper]

I'm workin', I'm workin'! Actually, tomorrow is going to be big update day #1, and next week will be big all week long :D

[Lord Banshee]

ohh thats that mean production next week?

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Lord Banshee
ohh thats that mean production next week?

Man you're greedy! :D Just wait and see, Santa will be here soon enough. :)

[Lord Banshee]

yes daddy :)

[zac83]

did you say santa? crap i dont wana wait till christmas! (just playing, im sure itll be out as soon as can be)

patience always pays unless your paying for what your patient for...

if only toyrota didnt make our computers so perplexing- i would have a turb slammed on my celi already...

[Lord Banshee]

what is this TRD special edition? did the dealer tell u that to make u buy the car. no offense but i never heard about it?

[BoonyBoun]

I've heard about the TRD special edition. I think someone showed some pics of it a while back.

[gavin]

by special i meant custom.
:)
its tomorrow david! wheres my update! heheheheheheheh j/k

[TRDNiteLife]

I thought today was big update day???

[RYANGT]

update??

[MSR27]

PST 6:29pm, update?

[Lord Banshee]

10:55pm damn it santa u made be even more greddy lol

[2000REDGT]

by special i meant custom
I think he was talking about zac83's car.

[gavin]

um its friday.. 1:18 am.. NO UPDATE im sad.

[Lord Banshee]

Originally posted by 2000REDGT

I think he was talking about zac83's car.

i was

[gavin]

oopes :) oh well.. no matter update update? anyone have an update?

[Syrupface]

Yummmy turbohttp://www.digitalpose.com/mbr/1/6586/p/37155_5874493009477781203.JPG

[zac83]

im not really sure either- the internals of my tranny might be odd- my clutch is VERY tight and the steering wheel is almost wrenched out of my hands when i bust turns with burnouts- the previous owner said everything was done to it right as it was bought- so imthinking ol' fred haas (souths biggest toy dealer...) in houston might have sold a few 'special' ones. ive called up there and they didnt say much- but as it goes:

my car has
cluch (possibly)
lsd (possibly)
16s
no badges whatsoever 'cept under the hood
TRD special edidtion badge on the rear where GTS red badge should be... really small and high quality with STAMPED 1 of 25 on it. nice lil aluminum piece here.
leather interior
silver paintjob
it had bodykit parts on it , skirts are all i can tell were on there- previous owner was a bit of a road racer so i can see why he would want em removed.
shielded injen short ram
trd exaust
the oddest part: no spoiler whatsoever.

cept for the sumitomo skins, 16s, and a weee lil silver badge on the rear- my cars about as sleeper as they come. a real mystery- im gona have to go up to the dealership and ask em to check it out for me. anyone seen a celi with similar items?