My car handles amazingly - help make it even better! [Archive]

Celicasaur

10-31-2009, 03:18 PM

Ok, I might be taking this out of the real world context of what 'amazingly' is, because I haven't got many points of reference of how awesome a celica can handle, but even still I am reallllly pleased with it thus far.

The things that make it lovely are:

Eibach Sportlines
TRD blues
APR front brace
E/S motor mounts
E/S front control arm bushings
Goodyear Eagle F1 tyres 225/50/16
Rays TE37 wheels
Stripped interior

I'm guessing it's a combination of everything that's making it so great. To build an idea in your head of what it's like...

Turn in is razor sharp (the nose responds to the slightest turn on the wheel) and when I go really fast, I've got plenty of notice before the back kicks out and the car will tell me via a feeling of the rear end 'skipping' through a bend. It's really noob friendly for me and I like that. Sure the ride is pretty harsh, but this isn't my DD so that's alright to me.

My question is, how can I make it handle even better, but while still having plenty of noob friendly characteristics? (ie, the back end staying planted firmly on the road)

FWIW a carbon hatch + lexan will be coming in the new year and so will a carbon hood. I wont be investing in an lsd, so that's out of the question for now.

Will a rear sway bar really make as much difference as I'm led to believe? There is still a small amount of roll in the chasis on hard turns, but I figure that less roll = faster corner speeds at the expense of information when the car is about to spin right at the limit? Or should I invest in a 3-point rear brace like the TRD one?

Also, the TRD blues...I was led to believe that they are among the worst for the celica...if that's true, then damn! Perhaps a simple upgrade to koni yellows next summer will be the final piece in the jigsaw?

(please nobody suggest coilovers either as I wont buy them)

Carbonized_GT

10-31-2009, 03:30 PM

Pick up a set of Hotchkis Street Sway bars, and either a TRD 3pt rear strut bar or the C-One rear strut bar.

Those 2 items will have the most significant handling change than anything else right now. The Hotchkis Street Sways are a good addition and dont make the rear slide out as easily as the Competition sways do.

I know you say not to suggest coilovers but I personally would have not gotten the TRD Blues w/sportlines. I would have rather have purchased a full coilover set(IE-Zeal, Tanabe, TEIN).

GTSchris

10-31-2009, 03:31 PM

hotchkis sway bars are probably the best thing for improving handling

GTSchris

10-31-2009, 03:33 PM

hotckis sway bars are probably the best thing to improve your handling

Mido

10-31-2009, 03:44 PM

if you get the sways, dont forget the cusco front under tie brace.

03GTSTRD told me about the sways, tried them, and were exactly as he said, and he said to get the under brace to take away that last bit of roll :D

ZaneMan

10-31-2009, 03:57 PM

I felt the biggest differance in sways as compaired to everything else. I got the hotchkiss street but now I regret not getting the sport or whatever the stiffer rear bar is. I would also recomend an anti lift kit and roll adjuster, from whiteline or Throttle. Not many members seem to have one but I felt a noticable difference and seemed to make the car alittle more predictable yet able to break lose at the same time. The hypermotive/TRD/C-one rear bar does make a difference as well but not nearly as much as the previous two and its a pain in the ass to cut the plastics; however, seeing as your gutting thats also not a bad idea. I would look into the rear support bars that came out 8-12 months ago. I cant remember the name of the company but not too many people bought them, however they looked nicely done.

bt216

10-31-2009, 04:23 PM

Hotchkis Street Sways
+1
cusco front under tie
or beatrush from Kamispeed.

also rear camber links and make sure your camber is dialed in properly. Also see if there is any room to widen your stance with wheel spacers. :thumbup:

DANZZT231

10-31-2009, 05:03 PM

My question is, how can I make it handle even better, but while still having plenty of noob friendly characteristics? (ie, the back end staying planted firmly on the road)

Get the Roll Coupler Adjuster from Throttle as Whiteline stop making it. It'll defeat Celica's naughty rear end.

TaeMachine

10-31-2009, 06:47 PM

Camber plates. More negative camber in the front with less in the rear. Toe-out the front a little (maybe 1/16 total) and maybe toe-in in the rear a little.

Celicasaur

11-01-2009, 03:43 PM

Thanks guys :love:

I'll set aside money when I get paid for some of those hotchkis street swaays then (yeah, defo don't want to go too stiff and potentially wreck my car on a late night drive)

I'll have a look into the spacers also as I can see that working well (but I'll have to get my wheels aligned yet again, right? damn - I've paid for two alignments in the last month! :( )

Roll Couple Adjuster...I'll do a few searchs and see what that's about.

I'm also thinking that some increased caster (same as the anti lift kit?) for the front will help get the power down and keep the car safer when using the nitrous, particularly as higher speeds?...Gonna have to look into if whiteline still make that part or not.

bt216

11-01-2009, 06:18 PM

but I'll have to get my wheels aligned yet again, right?

no it wont affect the alignment

miswhite

11-01-2009, 06:54 PM

i dont know if it affects cars the same but in kart racing if we widen the rear stance it gives no warning what so ever before you snap loose, can greatly help but be unpredictable at the same time

bt216

11-01-2009, 10:37 PM

Karts are rwd which I'm sure has something to do with it. Spacers aren't really going to cause anything that a properly offset wheel would. It's pretty simple commen sense, I think pontiac's slogan for the grand prix back in the day sums it up "Wider is better"

illGTS

11-01-2009, 10:55 PM

upgrade the driver. ;)

^ best money spent. Then you'll know what YOU want to add to make it better. "good" handling is subjective.

But, if I must make a suggestion other than above-

Rear chassis bracing (rear strut tower, end bar, under car, etc.)
Hotchkis competition rear sway (if you want it to rotate. ;) )

illGTS

11-01-2009, 10:57 PM

i dont know if it affects cars the same but in kart racing if we widen the rear stance it gives no warning what so ever before you snap loose, can greatly help but be unpredictable at the same time

?

In general-

Increasing rear track width increases understeer characteristics.
Increasing front track width increases oversteer characteristics.

Spacers on a celica aren't going to make it unpredictable.. unless you cheap out and the wheel stud breaks. LOL. ;)

Celicasaur

11-05-2009, 05:07 PM

upgrade the driver. ;)

^ best money spent. Then you'll know what YOU want to add to make it better. "good" handling is subjective.

But, if I must make a suggestion other than above-

True true, but I'm very new to chasis tuning (and even driving hard with a car that handles really nicely).Plus, I only get to drive the car 'properly' deep into the night, so that's why I ask questions to people who know more :)

I guess there's a fine line between really great handling and then a sudden snap of the rear...I'd rather be in the safe zone of having some body roll if it'll give me enough warning before I end up in a ditch.

illGTS

11-05-2009, 05:21 PM

True true, but I'm very new to chasis tuning (and even driving hard with a car that handles really nicely).Plus, I only get to drive the car 'properly' deep into the night, so that's why I ask questions to people who know more :)

I guess there's a fine line between really great handling and then a sudden snap of the rear...I'd rather be in the safe zone of having some body roll if it'll give me enough warning before I end up in a ditch.

Take it to the track then. You can learn the dynamics of your vehicle pre and post mods. Plus, you can have a lot of fun in a safe environment.. You don't need to be driving at the limit on the street anyway.

Really great handling is subjective. Maybe people want it to snap in the rear. It's a preference. The more you learn, the better you can set it up to your preference.

So, asking advice on setup is one thing. Knowing what you like is another.

It's a hatchback - stiffen the area around the c pillars or lack there of. That's why you are seeing a lot of replies regarding sway bar and chassis bars. Stiffer spring rates are crap without dampening underneath of them.

Have fun!

02celica

11-05-2009, 05:50 PM

Learn to really drive it??

Anti lift kit works too.
Roll cage will stiffen that bitch up too.

rdrocket2000

11-06-2009, 01:38 PM

I've had the best results in controlling a noisy and harsh rear end with a set of Koni yellow adjustables converted to coilover by TrueChoice, combined with a pair of Powergrid swaybar endlinks.

Littleman54

11-06-2009, 04:07 PM

The driver is what really makes the car. People who race at autox often, a lot of time, learn about there car in stock form, before adding suspensions mods. It gets you more familiar with the car then any other mod you can buy, so i believe seat time is a good way of learning about your car.

But if you really wanted some effected mods for our cars, everyone is right, get a set of hotchkis sways and a three point rear strut bar. They really make our cars feel a lot more rigid. If you really want to get serious, get some high spring rate coilovers with adjustable dampening, rear adjustable camber links (so you can adjust your camber both front and rear to your preference), and a roll cage.

That's about every functional suspension piece, you can practically buy for the car. Other then all of that, have fun with the car and stay safe!

CeliKurt

11-09-2009, 08:15 PM

Whats a good coilover set to go with Hothckis sway bars?

illGTS

11-09-2009, 08:33 PM

Whats a good coilover set to go with Hothckis sway bars?

Whichever you like.

I like :

Endless / Zeal
JIC (FLT/ TAR)
HKS (HyperMax II or III) (prob. no longer avail)

Suspension is a personal preference. Whether that be brand or what you feel is "good".

CeliKurt

11-09-2009, 08:41 PM

I should have said its a daily driver but i do auto-x it.

illGTS

11-09-2009, 08:43 PM

good, cause that's what I replied for.. dd and track use. ;)

I get paid to track vehicles. It's my profession. My advice is from experience.

Best wishes.

Celi Blanco

11-09-2009, 08:51 PM

...
I got the hotchkiss street but now I regret not getting the sport or whatever the stiffer rear bar is...

My experience has been that when upgrading sway bars I've always had to install the front and rear as matching pairs because the handling is messed up otherwise (the front and rear will not be rotating at the same rate).

If you get the Hotchkiss adjustable street bar then you can tweak it a little for your driving style. The plastic bushings also help tighten up the response, I really like them.

Toxygene

07-13-2010, 08:04 PM

Get the Roll Coupler Adjuster from Throttle as Whiteline stop making it. It'll defeat Celica's naughty rear end.

I have tried searching but I cannot find a site or a distributor for this "Throttle" Roll Coupler Adjuster. Can you help me find their site?

scarface

07-13-2010, 08:11 PM

Celicasaur

07-22-2010, 04:28 PM

I've not bought upgraded sways yet. I followed the advice of doing the driver mod on bendy roads and I was able to work out what I would prefer :)

I've replaced my TRD blues with Koni yellows. Those things are awesome! I've been slowly getting myself used to it by slowly adjusting the settings. Right now the rear is 50% of full stiffness (3 qtr turns) and the front is 25% (1 qtr turn).

I really like the way that the car almost feels like I'm aiming the nose, by somehow steering the back...probably my imagination, but that's how I imagine it's working, when I'm driving hard. It still feels very nice and planted and until I feel really super confident, I wont be stiffening the struts anytime very soon tbh. It handles really nicely for what I want at the moment.

I think what I should look into next should be E/S swaybar bushings for front and rear.

Question: If a rear swaybar stiffens the rear and keeps it more balanced to enable better tyre contact with the ground....in theory, wouldn't stiffening struts equate to the same thing, therefore eliminating the need for beefier sways? I know I'll be told this isn't true, but can somebody please explain why?

FYI I also have a TRD LSD in my bedroom now and hopefully it'll be fitted when the tranny gets rebuilt this autumn :)

:headbang:

illGTS

07-22-2010, 05:05 PM

Question: If a rear swaybar stiffens the rear and keeps it more balanced to enable better tyre contact with the ground....in theory, wouldn't stiffening struts equate to the same thing, therefore eliminating the need for beefier sways? I know I'll be told this isn't true, but can somebody please explain why?

:headbang:

Stiffening "anything" doesn't create better tire contact. You can actually lose traction by having it too stiff.

A stiffer rear sway will result in a more "tail happy" experience. Turn in will be better because the rear will want to follow more "tight". You have less side to side sway. The result is a better handling car with less forgiving over steer. In a fwd car this is what I want. The more the better imo. This is a personal preference so YMMV.

Having too stiff of a strut or shock will cause the suspension to not fully articulate or in your case, travel. Too stiff of a spring without good dampening (shock) will result in a bouncy, undesirable ride. ie; it'll ride like poo.

That is why you want a "matched" set. aka, a strut/shock that is valved to match the spring rate and performance level desired.

Too stiff of a strut or spring without the tire to appreciate it will result in a poor handling ride. You may think it's "nice". But, it can always be better. The ricers and young drift kids are usually the ones with overly stiff spring, and not enough damper.

Keep getting more seat time so you can tell yourself what you want and not ask others. What you want is the bottom line.

Don't forget to upgrade the driver. If you don't know what's right, you won't know when it's wrong.

illGTS

07-22-2010, 05:08 PM

My first hard use of the rear comp hotchkis bar was last sunday. The rear end tended to slide a little in the slalom. But for the most part the biggest problem I had was the front end was still plowing rounding sharp corners at high speeds. Used late braking than jumped on the gas to pull myself through the corner but as with any fwd if u push it too hard the car will go straight even with the wheel cranked. I guess the next best upgrade would be autoslicks.

Don't steer as much and watch your tire pressures. Slicks aren't always the answer and usually hide driver error.

Watch your entry speeds on the tight corners and try and manipulate the weight transfer to help you steer instead of hurting it. If you are plowing/understeering either reduce speed or reduce steering angle.

If you need help, just ask. I am a vehicle dynamics specialist by profession.

Entranced

07-22-2010, 09:17 PM

YGPM :love:

Toxygene

07-22-2010, 11:12 PM

I have tried searching but I cannot find a site or a distributor for this "Throttle" Roll Coupler Adjuster. Can you help me find their site?

Hello? Anyone?

SyKoTiX

07-23-2010, 12:34 AM

Hello? Anyone?
He is no longer a vendor on this site, but he visits ocassionally. Throttle is his username. I was one of the few that got the roll couple adjuster kit from him about 3 years ago.

http://newcelica.org/forums/member.php?u=10934

Toxygene

07-23-2010, 12:57 AM

Celicasaur

07-23-2010, 02:44 AM

ill/entranced - thanks guys.

Yeah no, FWIW the ride isn't all that bad at all right now with the shocks stiffened as they are now. Infact, the car is much more stable at high speeds over uneven surfaces (I remember being lifted off my seat a couple weeks ago and my head hitting the headliner when the car went over a smooth/gradual hump in the road :eek:) than it used to be with the shocks on fully soft.

I guess I'll do some more tuning to the driver mod and consider street sways during the autumn if I think I'm good enough to control the thing :)

vegeta4ss

07-23-2010, 10:31 AM

Thank you! Oh and nice sig... yum!
I have a set of these on my celi. They're a great mod for the money. I did mine about 2 years ago. It changed a lot of the rear end characteristics especially in sweeper type turns.

However, boosted2.0 has now bought the rights to sell that kit so you'll probably have to contact him since throttle isn't "officially" allowed to sell it now.

scarface

07-23-2010, 08:12 PM

Don't steer as much and watch your tire pressures. Slicks aren't always the answer and usually hide driver error.

Watch your entry speeds on the tight corners and try and manipulate the weight transfer to help you steer instead of hurting it. If you are plowing/understeering either reduce speed or reduce steering angle.

If you need help, just ask. I am a vehicle dynamics specialist by profession.

Yea last weekend at the auto x there was a driving instructor present and I took the opportunity to get some driving tips. Which really improved my runs through the slalom.

But my biggest problem was not looking ahead far enough and reading the track properly, or picking the best line to carry my speed through the corners, but im working on it. I got two local auto x, and one scca auto x under my belt so far, so im a rook. At this point im a sponge any knowledge anybody wants to throw my way im going to soak it up.

What would u reccomend for pressures on street tires? The tires I use is in my sig. Not sure whats the best pressure for these. So far im finding 40psi up front, and 30psi in the rear is decent.

youngxlos

07-23-2010, 09:49 PM

so after reading your thread, I'm also after the same thing.
I want the car to handle better, but i would also like the rear to be stable and not kick out on me, i was reading Boosted thread and it seems like he bought the rights to make the Rear roll couple adjust kit, the reviews on the thread seem to say the rear is near impossible to kick out, i they are exaggerating but still, I have the hotchkiss front sway and still not sure witch rear to go with, i don't want the car to kick out, i know i have to improve in my driving but having the rear kick out wont help me learn.
you should look into it bro

Thomas

07-24-2010, 02:49 AM

A guy at our club regularly drives with his celica GT over the N

scarface

07-24-2010, 11:53 AM

Well my car has low miles, stock suspension. My thoughts are this. The stiffer the suspension, sway bars and bracing the more likely the ass end will kick out. My back end sliding out from under me, was my fault being a novice at auto x. But overall the rear comp hotchkis sway bar makes the car handle significantly better. But with more oversteer I need to work on my driving skills. When the ass end kicked out I quickly learned a couple things. 1) dont let off the gas 2) steer in the direction u need to go and pull it straight. 3) biggest thing my mistake was to fast entry speed / sharp angle into the turn. But overall Im working on driving skill that make me confident on the street and having fun while doing it

many

07-25-2010, 01:23 PM

Oversteer moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaT9WZvN5S8
He trail braked in that corner....the rear got light and it shot over.....nothing to do with the car "oversteering" like a rear wheel drive car.

zycha

08-17-2010, 01:03 AM

He is no longer a vendor on this site, but he visits ocassionally. Throttle is his username. I was one of the few that got the roll couple adjuster kit from him about 3 years ago.

http://newcelica.org/forums/member.php?u=10934
Also you can do it yourself. On Whiteline site you can find installation instructions of KIT and inside are provided all sizes of parts. You can make that in your own garage from aluminum.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs268.snc4/39748_1296319419683_1581283406_600125_1350192_n.jp g

Celicasaur

09-08-2010, 08:35 AM

So after fitting my rear lexan window and removing the spoiler that seems to be the straw that's broken the camels back!

My car is now very keen to have the rear slide out when cornering hard at speed and it's very twitchy. Gonna have to soften the damping a little, just to give me a warning that I'm going too quickly, a tad earlier.

It's fine if I stay on the throttle and it hasn't spun out on me, but with the winter looming, I might have to relax on the country roads for a little while.