Lights out!

[yodaddyguido]

So im driving out to st louis this weekend, and while i was talkin to my buddy on the phone i watched the center console as the right hvac bulb died, then seconds later the left one, and then seconds after that the radio lighting went out as well. the radio and ac continued to work just fine, but the lights are still out. when i turn my headlamps off, the lcd backlight on the radio turns on again. the hvac lights are out though. the little led behind the ac button and defrost work still. what on earth happened? i checked all the fuses and everything is still good. did my body ecu just go a little haywire? help!

[yodaddyguido]

bump... rheostat works fine, dash gauges react to it correctly, all leds and what not work in that area. what should i be looking for? come ooooooooon 2way :wiggle: lol

[2way]

Blown pass transistor in the gauge cluster?

[yodaddyguido]

the gauge cluster seems to be fine, but is that driving the hvac panel and radio lights?

here's another funny kicker. when the headlights are off, but the turn signal is on, the lights on the radio come on when i press the brakes. when i let off, lights out again lol. how do i find a blown pass[ive?] transistor on any of these boards? will it look cooked?

[yodaddyguido]

bump... i dont even wanna fix this lol. but i need to

[yodaddyguido]

bump for any ideas :wiggle:

[2way]

Blown pass transistor in the gauge cluster
^

Look in the install stickies.

[yodaddyguido]

sorry to be a newb again, but point me to the right one and ill do the reading. lol. im gettin married tomorrow, so ill be worrying about this in a week or so, but i still dont know which manual to look at for pass[ive] transistors, heh.

[2way]

Sticky: Failed center console lights problem description/fix (http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185353)

[broderp]

Sticky: Failed center console lights problem description/fix (http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185353)

Is is just me, or do the images do not work on the link provided? :confused:

Trying to get up to speed on this issue. ;)

[2way]

Old issue. MOSFET pass transistor (sinks to GND) in gauge cluster does the dimming for the lights outboard of the cluster. People try to use it as a ground (among other things) and blow the transistor.

[broderp]

Old issue. MOSFET pass transistor (sinks to GND) in gauge cluster does the dimming for the lights outboard of the cluster. People try to use it as a ground (among other things) and blow the transistor.

Yodaddyguido, this part could also fail (but no likely), due to age and environment.
Wiring issues (you've mentioned your car has some weird wiring in the fog lights) or even loose/ intermmitent connections from age or fiddling with the harness can tax the transistor by inducing more current draw thu it.

I may be able to replace it for you in our board rework lab here at work (during lunch time of course! ;) )

EDIT: I got one pic to work, and see from the thread 2WAY posted, that this IS fairly easy to fix.

Assuming the 2000GTS is the same as the 2002: I believe here is your issue.
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3608/gaugeissue.jpg
The circled transitor sinks (as 2WAY put it) the gound signal from the accociated components. If this transitor burns open, then you have no ground. You could just re-attach the ground else where, (place the incoming W-G wire to ground) with no dim or real control, until you can fix it, if you really had to have the lights working in the short term.

[broderp]

the gauge cluster seems to be fine, but is that driving the hvac panel and radio lights?

here's another funny kicker. when the headlights are off, but the turn signal is on, the lights on the radio come on when i press the brakes. when i let off, lights out again lol. how do i find a blown pass[ive?] transistor on any of these boards? will it look cooked?

You still have this issue?

Transistors can look anywhere's from new to burned and blackened, depending on how fast they failed. My experience, the more violent the fail, the more noticable. It it occured over time, slowly and just now dies, then it may be unnoticable. If you shorted it out or grossly over-drove it, and it 'let the smoke out all at once" you would be able to usually see it.

[yodaddyguido]

JUST got back from my honeymoon, so im probably not going to get the chance to look at this until later this week. i may really need some assistance on this one lol. i cant see why i wouldve 'grossly over-driven' it if im using primarily all leds instead of incandescents throughout the console. unless the 03+ 6 disc radio draws a great deal more juice than the 00 ones. i noticed occassionally before the lights in the console failed, the radio would occassionally blink on and off AFTER i turned the headlights off and parked, before i shut the car off. it def seemed strange but i didnt think that was a symptom for anything especially with how seldom it did it. thanks a ton for the pointers so far. electrical diagrams are def different than the prints im used to looking at daily, heh.

[2way]

unless the 03+ 6 disc radio draws a great deal more juice than the 00 ones.As I recall, I think I observed two pinout differences between the '05 and the earlier model year radios? Its been a while and I'd have to sit down and compare the two prints again or search through threads. Maybe broderp can pick up my slack with that? Perhaps, one of the pin changes is part of the problem.

[broderp]

Though similar, the only difference I see (and this could be an important one) in that internal to the cluster, ground going to the cluster (W-G) goes into pin 12 (connector B) and is on the collector side of the transistor. This circuit makes sense to me. The transistor base is biased based on what the rheostat is inputing and it drives the transistor allowing anywhere from no ground connection to full ground. (off to full on)
2002 WIRING:
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4880/2002wiring.jpg


Ground on the 2005 goes to the cluster goes into pin 12 (connector B) (same as 2002 wiring and also a W-G wire) but goes thru what appears to be control circuit (the little box) that drives the base of the transistor. The collector of the transistor has a diode, and the meter LED in series.

2005 WIRING:
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/71/2005wiring.jpg
^^ THIS CIRCIT DOES NOT MAKE SENCE TO ME. :confused:
What am I missing? They have 12v coming into the collector of the transistor, thru a diode and the meter LED. ?????? Could the diode be a voltage stabilizer or be the voltage devise that is being varied?? (Its oriented to conduct)

I will check my 2003 book when I get home.


How was the honeymoon???? ;)

[broderp]

JUST got back from my honeymoon, so im probably not going to get the chance to look at this until later this week. i may really need some assistance on this one lol. i cant see why i wouldve 'grossly over-driven' it if im using primarily all leds instead of incandescents throughout the console. unless the 03+ 6 disc radio draws a great deal more juice than the 00 ones. i noticed occassionally before the lights in the console failed, the radio would occassionally blink on and off AFTER i turned the headlights off and parked, before i shut the car off. it def seemed strange but i didnt think that was a symptom for anything especially with how seldom it did it. thanks a ton for the pointers so far. electrical diagrams are def different than the prints im used to looking at daily, heh.

I don't think the radio should make a difference. The LEDS or bulbs would, so if they are lit up and dimmed, they are wired correctly. (unless your radio had 50,000 leds or bulbs. :)) then amp draw may have been an issue, but it appears the transitor in question is capably of 5 amps. I doubt stock lighting (in that circuit) would draw that much.

[broderp]

bump... rheostat works fine, dash gauges react to it correctly, all leds and what not work in that area. what should i be looking for? come ooooooooon 2way :wiggle: lol

I don't want to confuse the issue, but if these are working, how can it be the transistor? From the looks of the schematic, meter illuminuation also goes thru the same transistor. :AF:

[yodaddyguido]

well they went out in the following sequence, if youre sitting in the drivers seat: right hvac panel bulb, left hvac panel bulb, radio.

to recap.

-when the headlights are on, the hvac panel no longer lights up, and the radio no longer lights up.
- when headlights are off and the brake is depressed (and i believe only when either turn signal is on), the radio leds come on, but dim as if the headlights and what not were on, but do NOT react to the dimmer knob at all. when the brake is released, lights out again.
- when headlights are off, the leds behind the lcd screen light up correctly, full bright as they should under normal conditions, and obviously not reactive to the dimmer... i.e. normal. but the moment headlights are flipped on, theyre out again.

the hvac panel bulbs were replaced with ledmod's final rev 3 WHITE leds. the 6 disc radio is all oem, no modifications to it. i did the white led swap for the oem cluster and also did the resistor mod to make them brighter, but this was years ago and up to this point never presented any problems. you'll have to ask sean what the resistor mod changes and if THAT is possibly a source for too much load on w/e transistor you are referring to in the schematics, because EE is beyond me. come to think of it though. i recall seeing a resistor change that was recommended for his older revision hvac leds with certain colors but i cant remember if it was mentioned for the newer bulbs... maybe theyre drawing too much? im just tryin to help you guys help me narrow this down, so if there's any more info you need me to provide, ill do the probing on the car as soon as i can. this is an annoying issue lol.

and the honeymoon was fantastic, wedding day was the best day of my life, couldnt have ever guessed it would've been that awesome. made all the rough patches regarding all the ridiculous planning worth it. now life begins for me lol :D

[yodaddyguido]

bump for new insight based on latest list of stuff done lol

[2way]

I don't want to confuse the issue, but if these are working, how can it be the transistor? From the looks of the schematic, meter illuminuation also goes thru the same transistor. Schematic is an approximation. The outboard dash lights are handled by a separate MOSFET pass transistor. That's why it only effects the radio, HVAC, shifter (auto) lighting.
-when the headlights are on, the hvac panel no longer lights up, and the radio no longer lights up.
- when headlights are off and the brake is depressed (and i believe only when either turn signal is on), the radio leds come on, but dim as if the headlights and what not were on, but do NOT react to the dimmer knob at all. when the brake is released, lights out again.
- when headlights are off, the leds behind the lcd screen light up correctly, full bright as they should under normal conditions, and obviously not reactive to the dimmer... i.e. normal. but the moment headlights are flipped on, theyre out again. Weirdness. Kinda sounds like you've got a blown fuse somewhere or a bad ground.

[broderp]

Schematic is an approximation.

I know its not an engineering schematic, but darn, they could have at least proof read it so it makes sense! :confused:

So the 2002 is a better representation of whats actually going on......

[yodaddyguido]

if its a possible ground, where on earth might it be? i would think i could easily get to most grounds unless its something internal. ive checked the fuses repeatedly, and i still dont have a single blown fuse.

[yodaddyguido]

bump, know anyone who still sells those transistors? digikey appears to be out for good.

[broderp]

bump, know anyone who still sells those transistors? digikey appears to be out for good.

I'll check my resources at work. We may have some I could 'borrow' but I can't be sure if we have them at all. (depens if our stuff ever have used the part) I also know of several other electronic vendors we use who may have them.

No promises, but I may be able to call and request an 'engineering sample'. ;) I haven't worked with many of them for several years as my job tile changed, but I do still have some contacts.

2WAY was out of them?

[yodaddyguido]

i pmed 2way, so ill find out here whenever he gets a chance. the thread was pretty old so i didnt know if he eventually just liquidated his 'inventory' lol. well, you do have that one on the gt board i gave ya if all else fails? :wiggle: and i'll also have to show you some pics of my fog light setup sometime via pm. it looks like the previous owner did some interesting wiring. i KNOW he clipped the two reds going into the back of the plug (found those tonight, wrapped in blue paint tape... really)

[broderp]

I've made a few inquiries, no luck yet.

I do still have the part off the cluster you gave. I'm not too keen on re-using old parts, for obvious reasons. But if we must we can.

I have a few more places to look into.

Send them pics, interesting to see what we can come up with. :wiggle:

[broderp]

I **THINK** I found an alternate that might work. Its the same package size.

I see a few specs on the spec sheet that are different, so I'm checking with senior engineers on if these few specs will make any difference.

2SK2231 (OEM SPECS)

VDSS 60V
VDGR 60V
VGSS +/-20V
ID 5A
IDP 20A
PD 20W
EAS 129mJ
IAR 5A
EAR 2mJ
Tch 150c
Tstg -55 TO 150c


The alternate in question:

VDSS 60V
VDGR 60V
VGSS +/-16V
ID 12A ;)
IDP 48A :eek:
PD 30W
EAS 100mJ
IAR ??A
Tch ??c
Tstg -55 TO 175c

OK, here's what I got, The part I'm looking at, is a much stronger part. It is capable in sinking 12A continuis (vs 5A) and 48A peak surge (vs. 20A) but in the same physical size package and layout.

Its a bit 'slower' to switch, but for all you tech geeks, we're talking 25nS for the OEM vs. 35nS for this part. Dudes, thats 10nS (NANO SECONDS.) Besides, you don't care about on/off speed in this application.

I need to verify my findings, as well as go thru the other consideration before declaring it a DIRECT replacement. ;)

This could also be good news in that for those who want to modify thier cluster and will need more amp draw, this could be a solution!

For the non-tech geeks, there are TONS of specs that define form and function of electrial parts. The ones listed here represent the main ones. The spec sheets have between 6 and 14 pages of technical data/ charts and design consideration factors that should be looked at.

The good news..I have 3 samples from our engineers to play with. ;) (they popped up a tube with about 50 of them....)


I also have a lead on the same OEM part, but in a slightly different package, you would need to cut the leads, but otherwise its identicle.

[broderp]

In leu of my last post, I still have the cluster you gave me yodaddyguido, do you recall what was the issue with it?

I was considering removing the old transitior(carefully ;) ) and wiring up the cluster on a test bench with some out board leds/ lamps to test the parts I have in a controlled environment.

2way, you can chime in at any time buddy! :gap:

[yodaddyguido]

i have no clue what was wrong with it, i snagged it off ebay AGES ago and i cant remember if it was declared broken or not. in any case, i only purchased it to practice soldering on the 'real thing' so i didnt go and fudge up delicate electronics on my own car. im all for beefing up that item if it wont cause any other oddities to occur. and no im no proponent of re-using old components, but if we've got to... well, we can try with it. sounds like you've got a possible alternative though, so the sooner you get me the results, the sooner ill get you the cluster!


and im trying to pull these interior wiring shots off this phone, but its a bigger pain than i thought it would be. the bberry was so much easier to use with the pc lol

[2way]

I have some left and the ordering info is also in the two install stickies for DigiKey.

[yodaddyguido]

i was on the digikey site and maybe i just didnt spend enough time, or take the time to send in an inquiry, but the site made it seem like they were out. in any case, we'll get this worked out soon. i replied to your pm 2way!

[2way]

(1) 2SK2231Q-ND or 2SK2231TE16LCT-ND MOSFET N-CH 60V 5A 2-7J1B transistor

[Soon2beriding]

this is all chinese to me

hope u fix your problem

[yodaddyguido]

haha we're gettin close, thats the plain english version of the progress

[broderp]

Digikey was OUT OF STOCK and thier web site said to CALL for price. (Or something similar)

I will continue to see if my parts (12A) work, as they could open up room for others who wish to fade a few more lamps that the stock setup.

Yodaddiguido, when you get them from 2way, let me know. I'd be happy to swap it out if you need me too.

2WAY, do you have some on the way? I'd like to get my hand on one as well to compare and test with the mosfet I have.

[yodaddyguido]

im gonna zap him the money here in a few minutes, so i guess you could say theyre on the way. he still has a few apparently which is why im getting them from him instead of digikey. im thinking i might sit my car at the body shop next week, so if things time out right, i might be able to get you the cluster while its in the shop? lemme know if that'll work for you. via pm. thanks!

[2way]

2WAY, do you have some on the way? I'd like to get my hand on one as well to compare and test with the mosfet I have.
I have to check the mail account that PayPal is on. If there, I will try to get whatever he ordered out this week. Kinda busy. Just got back from vaca. The problems I see for upgrading to 12A are the ability of the cluster traces to handle that kind of current and that the fuse feeding that is 5 or 7.5A (I have to look.... I think 7.5A) and those are multifuses. So, you'd have to do some additional fusing.

[yodaddyguido]

well then oem is fine with me. ill just maybe swap out the hvac leds with nicer (on the transistor) ones. the whites seem to draw more than the other colors. or am i just wasting time by swapping them with a different bulb type?

[broderp]

I have to check the mail account that PayPal is on. If there, I will try to get whatever he ordered out this week. Kinda busy. Just got back from vaca. The problems I see for upgrading to 12A are the ability of the cluster traces to handle that kind of current and that the fuse feeding that is 5 or 7.5A (I have to look.... I think 7.5A) and those are multifuses. So, you'd have to do some additional fusing.

Yeah, had considered the ramifications of boosting the current thru the board traces. I do not believe the circuit thats drives the base of the transistor wiill care, but board traces and fuses might.

Not to confuse the issue, but please let me know if you have any extra on hand. The ones Yodaddiguido bought are his. I want one (or two) for my own experiments. My involvement with his issue is I'm offerning to swap the part out for him at work in our lab, and I'm just trying to help him out.

[yodaddyguido]

maybe you can just have my extra. just buy it through me, ill just ask what i paid for mine. i really dont anticipate needing more than one, but i thought, why not at this point. and my car wont be going in the body shop this week, and im thinking ill get these repairs done separately rather than at the same time.

[2way]

Sorry for the delay. They should be on their way to you, Guido. Should arrive before the weekend.

I do not believe the circuit thats drives the base of the transistor wiill care, but board traces and fuses might.MOSFET... Drain, Source, Gate ;) But, I know what you meant. Yep, its the high current portion that can be a problem. There's also no heatsinking, other than the circuit board nounting surface.

[yodaddyguido]

well we replaced the transistor, which was confirmed bad by testing it in broderp's celica... and then confirmed fixed after he swapped in the new one... however, same lighting issue exists in my car despite the new transistor. theres something else causing a serious short. do you know how on earth the brake lights tie into the center console? is there a common ground between the tails, the radio, and the hvac panel lighting?

i noted that the ac led and defog led still work fine, and behave properly. they dim when the lights are on, and are on full when hl's are off. radio lcd is backlit when hl's off, and when the brakes are pressed, the numbers and text light up dim, and the lcd dims... but when i turn the hl's on, the radio lcd backlight and all numbers/text leds go out (whether i have the brakes pressed or not, the radio doesnt light at all if the hl's or parking lights are on). the hvac panel, aside from the ac and defrost leds, is completely unresponsive to anything. lights out completely. cig lighter light also is out. the led within the window control is still on though. dome light functions properly. and the clock above the radio dims when the hls are turned on... BUT the clock doesnt react to the dimmer like it should. :bang:

help! Lol.

[2way]

Something caused the transistor to fail. The Clock does not dim off the dimmer. It only has two modes... daytime & nighttime. It sounds as though you either have a circuit crossed or a blown fuse somewhere and things are being backfed.

Go backwards and recall when this happened & what was done. I suspect something with the HU wiring.

[yodaddyguido]

well you would think that... but ive checked every fuse i know of in the car, and theyre all fine. passenger kick panel and engine, checked the relay box next to the air box as well. i dont even know what to look for anymore. its a good thing i bought two transistors, because i bet this ones gonna blow too since that wasnt the sole issue. :(

[broderp]

I'm wondering if there is a possibilty we are not getting voltage or are dropping voltage due to a partial short in the harness somewheres.


I'm looking for any possible way the brake lights are tied into the radio lights..lol :confused:

[yodaddyguido]

i can almost positively eliminate harness issues, at least from the radio harness. i restored that whole segment back to oem specs myself, taking extra care to make sure it was done right. granted, ill take another look though in light of all the bs thats still goin on with the car. looks like im gonna be driving a minivan around while i tear the celica apart... maybe you can head out my direction with a multimeter sometime lol and help me decipher some of whats happening :D

[broderp]

i can almost positively eliminate harness issues, at least from the radio harness. i restored that whole segment back to oem specs myself, taking extra care to make sure it was done right. granted, ill take another look though in light of all the bs thats still goin on with the car. looks like im gonna be driving a minivan around while i tear the celica apart... maybe you can head out my direction with a multimeter sometime lol and help me decipher some of whats happening :D

I think it may be insightful to see what voltages are where (or not) to point you in the right direction.

If you are tearing the car apart, it may be of benifit to start unplugging things, like the clock and the radio or anything else thats easily unplugged. If they are not in the circuit, they can't be the problem. (I don't think they are anyways, but you never can tell)

[yodaddyguido]

you like pizza? lol if its up on blocks this or next weekend, i might try bribery for some expertise

[yodaddyguido]

alright, so the fog light issue has been resolved. stupid issue, cant believe i didnt realize it before... but it was completely unrelated to the failure of the console lighting, so we'll move on.

if im using the dmm correctly, im getting zero voltage at the point where the bulbs are supposed to be in the hvac board. the leds for the def and ac are getting voltage and they light up just fine... just one more clue to this stupid problem i guess. so somewhere, something is halting voltage to the hvac panel so i have a few more questions...

if a resistor fries or fails, does it sever the flow of juice or does it allow it to flow freely through? could the white led clusters have caused the hvac panel to fail only at their location? is the hvac panel before the cig lighter bulb in the chain of things? where should i be looking now? and does the 03+ jbl 6 disc in dash changer radio unit draw a bunch more juice via the lighting than the 00-02 (because thats what ive got running atm)?

sigh, one step closer, but i still havent got this one figured out.

[2way]

Resistors commonly fail open. Diodes can fail shorted.

Backlight out on your HAZard switch, too?

You either have a blown PANel 2 fuse, a cut wire/trace, or a short to ground causing 0 volts at the HVAC panel lights. The HVAC lighting is in parallel to the Cig Lighter lighting dimming transistor. But, it is fed from a different fuse.

[ImpulseRED]

every 10 years, replace all fuses...... :D

[yodaddyguido]

theyre fresh :D i didnt even notice the hazard backlight. ill check tomorrow and get back on the thread with some updates. im still wondering how the brakelight is tied into the radio leds coming alive (when the headlights and pl's are off)...

[2way]

Pretty sure you either have a blown fuse & its backfeeding.. or you have something shorted.

[broderp]

Resistors commonly fail open. Diodes can fail shorted.

Backlight out on your HAZard switch, too?

You either have a blown PANel 2 fuse, a cut wire/trace, or a short to ground causing 0 volts at the HVAC panel lights. The HVAC lighting is in parallel to the Cig Lighter lighting dimming transistor. But, it is fed from a different fuse.

A short to ground on the positive side (from the fuse) on either panel 1 or panel 2 would more than likely blow the fuse. If the fuses are not blown, then this does not seem likely.

The clock (fed from panel 1 fuse) appears to work/ dim as suppose to, so that fuse should be intact.

Did you get a voltage reading on the circuit board for the HVAC bulbs? Does the glove box light work?

Its looking like the ground path is broken in circuit, perhaps at a junction.

[yodaddyguido]

glove box light works properly, voltage at the bulb points on the hvac board are reading zero voltage.

[broderp]

glove box light works properly, voltage at the bulb points on the hvac board are reading zero voltage.


If you're so inclined: :gap:

1. Find a ground point. Any will do. Any metal part of the chassis will be ground or find one from a circuit that works, example: you can use the W-B wire from the glove box light since we know it works. This will be our reference ground point.

2. Locate the G (Green) wire going to the CIGARETTE LIGHTER bulb.

3. Use the DMM to see what voltage you get from reference ground and the 'hot' wire (green) from the cigarette lighter. (Be sure your parking lights are on ;) )

4. If you have 12V, this tells us that the voltage is getting to the bulb thru the green wire from the junction block and the Panel Fuse 1 7.5A. You have a grounding issue.

5. To help confirm this, switch the DMM to continuity. Leaving one lead on the reference ground, place the other lead on the ground wire/ termal of the CIG LIGHTER bulb(W-G (White-Green). Your DMM should beep an audible tone indicating CONTINUITY. In theory it SHOULD NOT. This would support the belief that not only do you not have DC ground for that bulb, but the circuit is OPEN.

6. If you DO NOT have 12 volts from step 4, leaving the DMM lead on our reference ground and see if you have it at BOTH sides of the fuse. If you do, then the trouble is in the junction block or wiring from the junction block to the bulb (positve side wiring issue).

7. If step 6 is TRUE, then you will need to check continuity point to point from the bub wire up to were you have voltage, thru the junction conector and other wiring.

....just an idea.....:wiggle: If your so inclined.

[yodaddyguido]

holy moly haha ill see what i can do. im not real smooth with the dmm yet. i know its just two probes, but yea. the wire itself needs to be exposed to get proper readings correct? (cant believe im asking this question lol when i know the answer)

[broderp]

holy moly haha ill see what i can do. im not real smooth with the dmm yet. i know its just two probes, but yea. the wire itself needs to be exposed to get proper readings correct? (cant believe im asking this question lol when i know the answer)

lol, just be glad this isn't OT. :gap:

The wire in most cases does not need to be exposed. Just probe the connectors or the sockets.

[2way]

A short to ground on the positive side (from the fuse) on either panel 1 or panel 2 would more than likely blow the fuse. If the fuses are not blown, then this does not seem likely.Where in what I posted said a short to GND???? I said short.... as in crossed wires... like to the brake light circuit or some other circuit.

[yodaddyguido]

crossed or not, why would it just suddenly cross w/o any sort of stimulus?

and fyi, cant remember if i mentioned it or not... but the hazard backlight is out as well. so, cig lighter bulb (but not the cig lighter), radio, and hvac panel bulbs are out when the hl's are on... and i know for a fact the hvac bulb points and the cig lighter bulb are reading zero voltage (only two ive had a chance ot test so far)

[yodaddyguido]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/yodaddyguido/junctionquestion.jpg


cant help but notice theres a tail fuse in that center junction area... where is it? and is it something that looks like a standard fuse? ill be probing around again today to see what i can find.

edit, realized they were pointing the fuse box on the pass kick panel... nothing new discovered here today lol broderp, i may invite you out here sometime soon. this realm just isnt my forte

[broderp]

crossed or not, why would it just suddenly cross w/o any sort of stimulus?

and fyi, cant remember if i mentioned it or not... but the hazard backlight is out as well. so, cig lighter bulb (but not the cig lighter), radio, and hvac panel bulbs are out when the hl's are on... and i know for a fact the hvac bulb points and the cig lighter bulb are reading zero voltage (only two ive had a chance ot test so far)

Did you check for voltage from a reference ground to these bulbs? (reference ground to positive of bulbs) Example: wire labeled 7 on the HVAC bulb (G-B) and a known good ground.

(I've simplified the electrical schematic to show only what your car has and reorganized it to show a bit more clearly how things are connected.)
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4108/2002guagessimplifiedp.jpg

[yodaddyguido]

havent checked that yet, however, am i understanding this right? by checking with a reference ground to each point you stated, im basically finding out if the grounds for any of said points is either broken or bad, correct? im also wondering if i should check the radio harness, each plug, to see what changes when i apply the brakes w/ the light off... to see if maybe THAT might point me in the right direction. SOMETHING happens when i press the brake as we know, but yea, i guess finding out WHAT, should help. ill try your reference test tomorrow sometime and get back with ya.

[broderp]

havent checked that yet, however, am i understanding this right? by checking with a reference ground to each point you stated, im basically finding out if the grounds for any of said points is either broken or bad, correct? im also wondering if i should check the radio harness, each plug, to see what changes when i apply the brakes w/ the light off... to see if maybe THAT might point me in the right direction. SOMETHING happens when i press the brake as we know, but yea, i guess finding out WHAT, should help. ill try your reference test tomorrow sometime and get back with ya.

Right. Every bulb has to have a positive and a ground. By checking for the positive 12v (on a bulb that we know doesn't have 12V across its terminals)from the positive side of the bulb and a reference point ground, we can see if you are getting voltage to the bulb. This will tell us the wiring and relays, fuses and such on the positive side are all OK and the problem is on the ground side.

The meter will only read the voltage if both positive and negative are present.

My thoughts are, after you check and verify the presence or absence of voltage, then yes, you should then see how this voltage fluctuates or drops when the brakes are on. This can get tricky cause as 2way stated, you may have some wires shorting (NOT TO GROUND ;) ) but to each other. How this happens, not sure. But one step at a time. :o:

[yodaddyguido]

didnt get a chance to tackle it today, ill try and get to it this week. whew, busy busy.

[2way]

If the transistor replacement worked in broderp's car, the problem is external to the gauge cluster. 9 chances out of 10, something done with the outboard dimming circuit wiring caused the original transistor to fail. Two things spring to mind that willl cause premature failure - 1) thinking the dimmer circuit is a ground and driving too much current through the transistor; 2) hooking +12V directly to the dimming circuit (also causes excess current through the transistor). If LEDs were installed in the HVAC panel without proper resistors in place, that would put +12V into the dimming circuit. Where the HU wiring was messed with..... that would be the 1st place to start. If the HVAC lighting was messed with, I'd look there 1st.

FYI to broderp, both of the schematic diagrams incorrectly show the cluster lighting going through the same transistor as the outboard lighting. This is NOT the case in any of the 7th Gen Celica Model Years.

[yodaddyguido]

well i contacted ledmod about the hvac panel leds potentially causing failure due to the resistor mod he USED to have on his site for certain color leds. he said the install guide and recommendation was removed due to the fact it was only for the ac and defrost leds:

Resistor that was replace before was only for the indicator lights for the ac/defrost button..
With the resistor it will make it light up brighter, but it was too bright... so now I don't offer resistor..

he's under the impression a short is pretty much the only way the transistor would blow/fry. in any case, i agree with you 2way when you say its certainly outside the cluster. ive since removed the bulbs all-together and removed my radio as well as all the 'protective' electrical tape that was wrapped all over the back side of the radio harness that i repaired years ago. its a little sloppier than i remember, so i may be heading out to get a new spool of wire and do some proper repair work... again. im hoping i can get to broderp's car soon to see if the transistor blew again, or if its still hanging on despite the issue still being in the console somewhere. and i still have yet to have the time this week (so far) to hit it up with the dmm list posted by broderp, which i know could greatly reduce the ?'s in this situation. i want this stupid issue fixed! its still all just odd to me with the odd reaction to the brake lights. lol.

[broderp]

If the transistor replacement worked in broderp's car, the problem is external to the gauge cluster. 9 chances out of 10, something done with the outboard dimming circuit wiring caused the original transistor to fail. Two things spring to mind that willl cause premature failure - 1) thinking the dimmer circuit is a ground and driving too much current through the transistor; 2) hooking +12V directly to the dimming circuit (also causes excess current through the transistor). If LEDs were installed in the HVAC panel without proper resistors in place, that would put +12V into the dimming circuit. Where the HU wiring was messed with..... that would be the 1st place to start. If the HVAC lighting was messed with, I'd look there 1st.

FYI to broderp, both of the schematic diagrams incorrectly show the cluster lighting going through the same transistor as the outboard lighting. This is NOT the case in any of the 7th Gen Celica Model Years.

^^Thanks. That would explain why the meter LEDs work, yet the outboard ones do not. I was thinking about this, but didn't want to cloud the issues any more than they were.

Yodaddiguido, if I'm reading what 2way is saying, it may be of benifit to look and see if the wires from the Dimmer harness have any extra wire spliced into them from an attempt to use them for power or ground as 2way indicated. If there are any taped wires, be sure to inspect for shorts between wires within the taped wires and harness- all the way between the dimmer and the cluster.

[broderp]

well i contacted ledmod about the hvac panel leds potentially causing failure due to the resistor mod he USED to have on his site for certain color leds. he said the install guide and recommendation was removed due to the fact it was only for the ac and defrost leds:



he's under the impression a short is pretty much the only way the transistor would blow/fry. in any case, i agree with you 2way when you say its certainly outside the cluster. ive since removed the bulbs all-together and removed my radio as well as all the 'protective' electrical tape that was wrapped all over the back side of the radio harness that i repaired years ago. its a little sloppier than i remember, so i may be heading out to get a new spool of wire and do some proper repair work... again. im hoping i can get to broderp's car soon to see if the transistor blew again, or if its still hanging on despite the issue still being in the console somewhere. and i still have yet to have the time this week (so far) to hit it up with the dmm list posted by broderp, which i know could greatly reduce the ?'s in this situation. i want this stupid issue fixed! its still all just odd to me with the odd reaction to the brake lights. lol.

The issue with the brakes could be (and sounds like) a wire in the brake circuit is making contact with a wire in the dimmer circuit. My guess its in the ground side of things. If you could find the wires and isolate them in the brake circuit, you could do a continuity check between them and each wire in the dimmer circuit. From the schematics, looks like they should be 100% isolated. If there is continuity, this could explain the odd affect the brakes have on the leds dimmer.

My car is available for you when your ready, just PM me and we can work out a time to meet. I would suggest leaving the Dimmer in the full OFF position to avoid any current being drawn thru the transistor and potentially damaging it.

[yodaddyguido]

it may be too late for this transistor unless its got a little bit of endurance. ive had to do some evening driving lately, as well as every morning i like to see my gauges. ive kept them just a fuzz above completely dark, so maybe hope isnt all lost. ive still got that extra transistor, and im almost betting im gonna wind up needing it at this point. ill pm ya soon once i get a chance to hammer on the car again.

[broderp]

Update?

(bump)

[yodaddyguido]

unfortunately no update yet. im trying to figure out what ive got going on this weekend. i may request some dmm help if youre up for it. ill let ya know whats goin on soon, probably via pm.

[broderp]

bump for update.


You give up for the winter? :confused:

[yodaddyguido]

nice timing, i was actually going to pm you. i printed out your step by step and brought it out to the garage with good intentions lol. id like to give it a crack here soon. im so tired of the lighting! i snagged an aftermarket hu from a member on here for testing purposes more than anything to see how it reacts compared to the oem unit. well, it behaves exactly the same to my surprise. its a bit more dramatic with the aftermarket unit though. the lcd display flips to negative when it senses the dimmer engaging, so when i hit the brakes w/o any of my lighting on, the screen flips to negative, and dims as if i turned the lights on. like the oem unit and its backlighting. only difference is, the backlight on the aftermarket stays on full with no behavior change when i do turn on any lighting, but im pretty sure thats the nature of the aftermarket unit... keep the lights on no matter what.

something else i noticed today (by the way, i went back to the oem hu... i like oem better, what can i say). not sure if i mentioned this in a previous post, but the clock dims when i hit the brakes as well, but not when i turn on lighting. made me say 'hmm'. anyways, i might try my luck with the dmm this weekend and see what i can find out. also, im gonna try and run through the wiring around the dimmer to see if someone previously tried to splice it and i somehow damaged the wire.

[broderp]

^^
Guess I better put my thinking cap back on. :gap:

[yodaddyguido]

ok i lied, the clock dims when i engage any of the light systems... its not tied in with the brake thing lol. just double checked on my way home from dinner. its been a long week haha :wiggle:

[broderp]

ok i lied, the clock dims when i engage any of the light systems... its not tied in with the brake thing lol. just double checked on my way home from dinner. its been a long week haha :wiggle:

yep, thats normal. Thats the last thing you need, yet another odd light issue. ;)

[2way]

BEWARE, the Dimmer circuit in the Celica is reverse of what most aftermarket HU's require.

[yodaddyguido]

well, in any case, im back to the oem unit... but the aftermarket DID behave exactly as the oem did

[broderp]

Bump for any update. :wiggle:

[yodaddyguido]

i think im gonna drive my car up to you and you can attack it with a dmm... sound good? lol pm me if it does.

[yodaddyguido]

alright, another quick update, and new odd lighting behavior discovered. so i pull into the garage last night, and pop the lights off while holding the brake. naturally (at this point) the backlighting on the stereo comes on. while the brake is depressed, this has been the trend, but i just noticed that if i turn the fan on the highest setting, it turns out the lighting for about a second, and then comes back. same thing if i hit the ac button or defrost. so the high setting, ac, or defrost buttons, when activated, while i have the brake pressed (which is causing the backlighting to come on when i dont have the headlights on lol), they turn the radio lights off for about a second or two before coming back on. whats the connection? the initial draw of juice? oh yea, and this is while the car is running. havent tried it w/o the car running yet.

[2way]

OEM or aftermarket HU?
You need to troubleshoot, my friend. Either that or a day trip to Dayton.

[yodaddyguido]

oem hu. i installed the aftermarket for about an hour before deciding it was a dumb idea. if i want mp3's ill get another grom unit. yea, broderp may not know it, but i need to plan a weekend to head up there lol.

[broderp]

oem hu. i installed the aftermarket for about an hour before deciding it was a dumb idea. if i want mp3's ill get another grom unit. yea, broderp may not know it, but i need to plan a weekend to head up there lol.

I don't work in the cold. sorry. :gap: (Why do you think I was pushing for a resolution while the weather is good? ;) )

Seriously, you may be in luck. I am actually on vaction the last half of December thru early Jan., so I should have time to help with this.

We will need to discuss via PM about dates and times.

The lights dimming in the post above sounds like a current draw issue as you pointed out. Still seem like its a partial short somewheres. :confused:

[broderp]

OEM or aftermarket HU?
You need to troubleshoot, my friend. Either that or a day trip to Dayton.

But aren't you in MA? ;)

[yodaddyguido]

i think he was referring to ME driving to dayton... lol and yes i think the backlighting 'winking' issue seems to be directly related to current draw. if i double lock, or unlock the doors (i.e. lock it if its already locked or the other way around), or hold a window button a fuzz after the window is at either full position it takes out the backlighting until i release. which leads me to think the draw of the headlights/parking lights are what's keeping them from being on at all when i kick them.

as for the cold, i know i know. i cant even tell you how stupid, and stupid busy my life has been the past few months. my garage is insulated if that helps haha ill pay for gas and sustinence?

[broderp]

i think he was referring to ME driving to dayton...

I figured that, it was a poor attempt at humor..;)

i think the backlighting 'winking' issue seems to be directly related to current draw. if i double lock, or unlock the doors (i.e. lock it if its already locked or the other way around), or hold a window button a fuzz after the window is at either full position it takes out the backlighting until i release. which leads me to think the draw of the headlights/parking lights are what's keeping them from being on at all when i kick them.

as for the cold, i know i know. i cant even tell you how stupid, and stupid busy my life has been the past few months. my garage is insulated if that helps haha ill pay for gas and sustinence?

Garage is fine, don't worry about gas or sustinence, I'm a cheap date. :gap: (But I don't usually turn down free food either. ;) )

[2way]

Crossed lead, bad ground, or a blown fuse causing a backfeed.... are my bets.

[yodaddyguido]

well we can eliminate fuses. i checked again today. the rear washer fluid motor isnt working either... just noticed that today, so that could be completely unrelated, but then again, we dont know yet lol

[broderp]

well we can eliminate fuses. i checked again today. the rear washer fluid motor isnt working either... just noticed that today, so that could be completely unrelated, but then again, we dont know yet lol

Check and see if your resivior is low. I *believe* there are two pumps on the tank. The rear one is above the front one, so if the level goes below its intake, you get no washer action. I've thought mine was broken before until I filled it up becuase I was out for the front. Then miraculasly, the rear one worked as well. It was odd becuase I dont recall hearing the pump running, even if its empty or below the level of the intake.

I could be wrong. ;)

[yodaddyguido]

got plenty of fluids, i dont hear the motor at all anymore. i remember posting an odd question awhile back in regards to the rear wiper... whenever i DID fire off the rear washer, the front wipers would go as well. never made sense of that one. lol how deep do you think this troubleshoot has to go?

[broderp]

got plenty of fluids, i dont hear the motor at all anymore. i remember posting an odd question awhile back in regards to the rear wiper... whenever i DID fire off the rear washer, the front wipers would go as well. never made sense of that one. lol how deep do you think this troubleshoot has to go?

:shrugs: Maybe this is linked to the lights issue.......or causing it. ;)

[yodaddyguido]

the weird wiper behavior actually came before any of this showed up, however, i think its failure is a recent thing. this weekend doesnt look too good unless sunday is an option... work, then funeral, then other such 'thumbsdown' festivities on saturday.

[2way]

Gremlins....

I'd have to look... but, I seem to recall only one washer pump and it solenoid switches to the rear. But, w/o looking, I'm not positive.

[broderp]

Gremlins....

I'd have to look... but, I seem to recall only one washer pump and it solenoid switches to the rear. But, w/o looking, I'm not positive.

Schematics say your right. But I swear when I removed my bumper and washer tank when I installed my fogs there were two hose, so I assumed there were two motors. probably one motor and a solenoid (that I mistook for a motor) like you say. I do believe if the level in the tank is low, the rear stops working before the front. probably due to the location of the tubes.

lol, I accidentally pulled the tube off (not much room for play behind the tank) and my reservoir was FULL, well it was when I started. :) I had a small flood. :gap:

[broderp]

BUMP BUMP!! :gap:

What new on this? (I've been gone for a few months!)

[yodaddyguido]

not very much. pisses me off to see the center console completely dark at night lol. im in school at wright state full time, and still trying to work around 30 hours, so as if i had little free time before... i have less now. i have a lot of new pieces parts but obviously havent gotten around to installing them. tax return season is here, and my car will be hitting the shop soon, so i may be passing off my cluster again to replace the transistor possibly after i replace the hvac board... which i have sitting in my garage. this really is an annoying issue. lol

[yodaddyguido]

so just an update for all who ever read this thread. turns out it was a bad tail light bulb. some stupid led bulb i had in there. the diode came unsoldered within the base and everytime i hit the brakes, it was sending bizarre currents through the cluster causing the radio to light up when the lights werent on, of course after blowing the pass transistor in the cluster.

well now there's a new twist. im starting to think it also had something to do with the white leds i had in the hvac cluster as well. i replaced the tail bulbs making sure the elec behavior was consistent with ONLY the transistor being blown, had the transistor replaced and voila... we're back in business. lighting was behaving great and center console was good to go. had oem bulbs back in place on the new board. here comes the new twists though. now that the cluster was back to normal, the windshield washer sprayers no longer worked... wipers reacted as though they were, but no squirt, no noise. plenty of fluid in there too. well in my impatience to get the console looking back the way it was, i tested my bulb terminals on the hvac board to verify pos/neg with an older blue led bulb. marked the positive side after seeing sustained light from the bulb at both terminals. i pick up the white bulbs that were on the old board, touch to the terminals to test and POP... blew the transistor again. couldnt believe it. now, is it the led bulb itself or is it something deeper? so im sitting there facepalming myself and then realize that, oh, now that the transistor is blown again, my squirters are functioning again... wtf?! how are the squirters involved in this?

im ordering another transistor, but now i've gotta figure out how the squirters are involved in all of this. feel free to post insight and e-diagrams that might help me understand wtf i've done lol. thanks :bang:

[2000celicagtmg]

my issue was as simple as pulling the huge 7.5 fuse in the console and replacing it...lights work just fine now

[yodaddyguido]

well i KNOW its blowing the pass transistor in my cluster... just not sure why, and how the washer sprayers are involved.

[yodaddyguido]

ba-bump

[2way]

You've been complaining about the washers before. I would have to guess a blown fuse, crossed wire, or bad ground. Probably getting a ground loop or something through the dimmer circuit. When the dimmer circuit is the way it should be, then the problem w/washers shows up. Blown or shorted dimmer pass transistor and then they work.

I have to look. I know I don't have many of them left. If you're lucky, I have two and can send you one. It would be the last one you'd get & you will be required to swear to never do anything electrical to your car without supervision again!

[yodaddyguido]

in my defense it hasnt been my electrical work that screwed this all up lol... it all started with the stupid attraction to having an led tail light that did me in. from there it all went downhill... before the bulbs, i had no issues whatsoever when it came to electrical, and now its a mess. lesson learned. broderp has some pass transistors with the same specs as the celica's, but they can draw more amps. i realize thats not a good thing given the sensitivity of everything in line with that but it may be my fall back if you dont have any left. either that or im just gonna start buying up all the clusters i see fs around the forums lol. and btw, he is doing all the board work for me since he's definitely more qualified and skilled at it than i am. plus he has all the right tools, which helps.

i really dont plan on messing with it anymore. this has been a long list of lessons learned that ive shared with as many people as i can so this hasnt been a completely stupid situation. ive learned all sorts of things about resistors, diodes, and pass transistors as well as their behaviors under stress or failure situations :wiggle:

[broderp]

You've been complaining about the washers before.

It would be the last one you'd get & you will be required to swear to never do anything electrical to your car without supervision again!


:eslap:
^THIS was FUNNY! :chuckles: (Sorry! ;))


i really dont plan on messing with it anymore. this has been a long list of lessons learned that ive shared with as many people as i can so this hasnt been a completely stupid situation. ive learned all sorts of things about resistors, diodes, and pass transistors as well as their behaviors under stress or failure situations :wiggle:



More importantly...did you LEARN to leave it ALONE? :gap: Seriously, as mentioned, the parts I have I am being told should work, but its a risk.

I'm having second thoughts about LEDs as well........ I'd love to see how the one that caused all this trouble failed.

[yodaddyguido]

ill look around my garage again but im pretty sure i tossed the bad bulb after cursing at it for a few hours lol.

and sheesh, everyone just bash the DIY'er trying to get it done by following instructions throughout this knowledgeable forum. if i want any curious electric work done ill just make you some more chinchilla accessories lol. there, lesson learned :D