NCDS arbitration is a joke! Toyota, I'll see you in court!

[heltor2]

This is on a 2000 Celica GT-S purchased December 1999.

My transmission went out and Toyota wouldn't cover it because they said it had been damaged due to "abuse". I paid to have it replaced after 2 months of trying to get arbitration started. Toyota spent 2 months sending the arbitration papers to the wrong zip and gave me an outdated arbitration form from when AAA AutoSolve used to handle them.

I finally was able to get set up for arbitration and showed up with receipts showing that automatic transmission fluid was placed into my 6 speed manual transmission during warranty transmission replacement instead of 75W-90 gear lube and a Toyota technician's note that during the replacement of the transmission that I paid for they discovered that there was excessive free play in my clutch pedal and corrected it.

I supplied a plethora of documents, including the invoice for the shifter springs that were installed with the following included:

prime item section: "SOP-SHIFTER SPRINGS PER DSM PREVENT OVER REVVING FROM DOWN-SHIFTING AT HIGH RPM"

condition cause remedy section: "OVERREVVING FROM DOWNSHIFTING AT HIGH RPM/POOR DESIGN-NO SHIFTR SPRINGS/R&R BATT,A/F BOX,RR TRANS MOUNT,DISASSY SHFT INTRLK ASSY & INSTALL SHFTSPRNG"

I was asking for $3700 dollars reimbursement for transmission replacement, $2000 estimated rental costs for the 2 months before I finally paid to have my car repaired, and an extended 7 year/100,000 mile warranty with a guarantee that future engine/transmission repairs would be covered without hassle, or to have the car repurchased by Toyota since my car does qualify for the Lemon Law as it was in the shop for more than 30 days during the first year.

I brought documents showing exactly what kind of fluid goes in the transmission( 6 speed transmission removal document ), all of my service receipts, showing the wrong fluid and excessive free play found along with the clutch pedal adjustment manual and the shifter spring invoice from above.

All the Toyota rep brought to the arbitration was a stack of my service receipts. Toyota's main argument was that they had already spent more than the price of the car on warranty work, and that the first engine and transmission were "good will" gestures, not ordinary warranty repairs. They presented no evidence of abuse whatsoever.

I lost even though I had the proof of excessive free play in clutch pedal, automatic transmission fluid being placed in my vehicle's manual transmission, and that there was a known problem with the original 2000 GT-S 6 Speed shifter.

They didn't even rule for transmission replacement reimbursement.

And contrary to what someone said about the state paying for arbitration, Toyota pays the arbitration company. I asked the arbitrator at the beginning of the arbitration if the state paid the arbitration fees and he said that no, Toyota pays but that the fee is the same whether they win or lose.

In short, going to arbitration is pointless.
DO NOT GO TO ARBITRATION if at all possible!
We would all be wise to skip it and go straight to court.

Toyota, I will see you in court where you will not have your own people making the decision.

Good luck to anyone else with problems,
Heltor

PS, I may scan the decision documents and put them up on my web-site, might be amusing to some of you to see how much evidence I had, and yet had arbitration decided against me. There is one little paragraph on the document that tells what little argument Toyota had.

[2002GT_Celica]

All I can say is this, get yourself a really good lawyer, because if you lose in court you are screwed.

[heltor2]

Here is a link to the decision document:

http://www.interthreat.com/toyotaarbitration/

[pepsiman]

wow.. i jus went to arbitration 4 days ago
2000 white celica GT-S 6speed manual.
Transmission n engine problem.
Toyota rep attacked me of racing the vehicle cuz i had aftermarket intake. i told him about my knowledge on turbos,superchargers,and my experiences with car shows.
he said " you go to car shows n you saying that you don't race? this is pretti pathetic"
i replied " show cars are not for racing.. its a show car.. you;re talking about a race car"
my mom " this car is so unsafe, my son almost died in this car.. what r u gonna do if your son dies in toyota made car"
toyo rep" i wouldn't get my sons high performance car cuz its unsafe"
me" are you sayin celica is unsafe"
toyo rep- silence

i think i won this case~ no doubt about it~

[GTS808]

That Toyota rep is an idiot. LOL!

[Tony01Gts]

I just had my arbitration on Tuesday. My car was down for a total of 46 days.... http://www.tones321.com/celicaproblems.htm for more info and what I requested. I hope my arbitration goes better than yours, heltor... what proof did they have you abused the vehicle? I was also told that the NCDS was totally independent from Toyota. I think it's a load of BS.
Pepsiman: what was the name of the Toyota Rep... was he from Southeast Toyota? The guy at my arbitration was Jim Watson... he seemed pretty decent actually, and offered (if my arbitration wasn't won) to buy my car back at near full retail (as a trade-in) and to sell me an 03 at near cost. He said this may even be less expensive than the difference I'm going to have to pay on mileage if my car is repurchased.

[Brett]

Sorry to hear that. I got what I requested.

[Willis5050]

First off, you recieve arbitration papers when you purchase the car new. Toyota shouldnt have to send you any. Second, toyota does in fact pay for arbitration, but it is mandated by the state as impartial. Better coming out of their pocket than yours? Third, wouldnt the service documents that you and toyota have be identical? This is of course assuming you saved everything.

Ok next, how many transmissions have you gone through? From your post it sounds like you are on at least your third (one under warranty, and one out of warranty). That would suggest abuse to an independent arbitrator. Also, what is the problem with the six speed shifter again? Basically, non warranty work doesnt matter in this arena, and should have been pursued in a different manner. Covering misshifts IS goodwill by Toyota, and certainly they should not replace your car after being nice and replacing the first engine/tranny. How many times did YOU misshift?

One more note, your arbitration decision can be used by Toyota as evidence if you ever do take them to court, so it is going to take a lot of money and effort on your part to overcome that decision. Good luck.

[LaW]

heltor, it would appear that you did not provide all of the paperwork.... as well you can't count a misshift as a defect or faulty part. So basically that transmission replacement doesn't count. Did you misshift again? It sounds like you did and they have been offering to fix things. As I see it you didn't have much of a case. Others on the board that have filed for arbitration have had a much better case including all their service sheets.... Sorry man but it seems like you just didn't have the case and the ruling in my opinion was correct.,

[Brett]

hmm, you could try small claims, I think the max on that is 5 grand

[SlasherX]

Celica's have problems?

*scratches head*

[Da Kine Guy]

Originally posted by GTS808
That Toyota rep is an idiot. LOL!

Not really. Ever seen a rich parents high school kid who gets a Supra TT for his birthday? One went to my school, in the aftermath the Supra looked liked a Mini and he no longer had a head (or anything resembling one) :(

[heltor2]

I brought all service documents and extra documentation.
Most of the documents listed at the beginning of the arbitration were provided by me, not Toyota.

We both brought the 34 service documents
He brought the weights and fluids doc which confirmed that the wrong fluid was placed in my transmission when they repaired it.

I brought all the other documents.

They replaced my engine once under warranty for mis-shift, and then I had them install the shifter springs. They replaced the transmission a little later under warranty because it was grinding. When they did the replacement they put Automatic Transmission Fluid in it instead of 75W-90 and I provided the service receipt showing this at the arbitration. The transmission was grinding during shifts and then the shifter cables went out and were replaced under warranty. They would not fix the grinding under warranty. They declined due to "abuse". The transmission then went out and they declined warranty due to "abuse". When I paid to to have it replaced the tech that did the work said the there was excessive free play in the clutch pedal and I had them put that in writing on the receipt. For those who don't know, extra free play causes the clutch not disengage all of the way when floored.

My belief is that the combination of transmission overheating from the wrong fluid and the grinding from shifting with the clutch not disengaged all the way because of the excess free play weakened the cables causing them to come loose. The overheating and grinding then eventually caused internal transmission damage.

Toyota's copy of the service document from when they replaced the transmission once under warranty matched mine and confirmed that they used the wrong fluid. I also presented the tech note that excessive free play was found in the clutch pedal.

I thought I had a pretty much open and shut case as far as the transmission failure goes.

I threw in the earlier mis-shift and poor shifter design documents in an attempt to have them re-purchase the car because of the >30 day downtime. I included my invoice stating poor shifter design and the 2002 parts update doc for 2000 and 2001 transmission, cables and shifter.

For those of you who are arguing against me, what part of my case against Toyota on the faulty transmission do you disagree with?

Heltor

[heltor2]

With the 2000 6 Speed shifter you could pull down from 3rd gear and hit 2nd instead of 4th accidentally. They put out a TSB for the spring install on 2000 models, installed the spring on all 2001 models, and redesigned the transmission, cables and shifter for 2002.

Heltor

[Tony01Gts]

I think you would have had a case, but a lot of it was driver error... the original problems. I think that's what made the arbitrator deny you. From what I've learned going through all this, no matter how much the dealership screws up, it doesn't matter in lemon law or arbitration. It wasn't Toyota's fault they put the wrong fluid in your tranny, it was the dealership. I know this sounds stupid, and I agree with you. My dealership has dented my intake manifold, ordered the wrong seat covers 6 times, scratched my bumper, repaired my misshift wrong, told me nothing was wrong when there was, etc. Arbitration/lemonlaw looks more at manufacturer defects then dealership error. You should have called the owner of the dealership. Thats how I got my problems resolved. You can't be an ******* about these kinda things because as you have learned, they can just say everything is your fault and you get nada.

[heltor2]

So you're saying I should sue the dealership? I thought since the dealership is a representative of Toyota it would all be the same. If a dealership messes up, Toyota messed up. I should go after the individual dealership?

Heltor

[Fiero]

Wow. Complicated case. I think you need a good lawyer and lots of free time to handle it.


Call my paranoid, but incidents like this are the exact reason I opted to not get a Celica. I am good with a manual, been driving one for years ,and I don't street race, but I don't even want to take the chance of me misshifting on the Celica's close design. Perhaps the 2003 will be better.

[Willis5050]

Originally posted by heltor2
With the 2000 6 Speed shifter you could pull down from 3rd gear and hit 2nd instead of 4th accidentally. They put out a TSB for the spring install on 2000 models, installed the spring on all 2001 models, and redesigned the transmission, cables and shifter for 2002.

Heltor

Right, there is nothing really wrong with the transmission, they just redesigned it as a safeguard because people who couldn't handle it misshifted, which cost them a lot of money.

Tony's right about the dealership, they are an independent entitiy. Whatever mistakes they made have to be taken up with them, and Toyota is not responsible in the least. Pursue it with the dealership.

[Tony01Gts]

On another note about the dealership thing... they get paid by Toyota for the warranty work they do, so thats why they fixed it the first time. When THEY messed up, it had to come out of THEIR pocket.... so, they blamed it on you. I don't think theres much you can do now. It's going to cost you more to get a lawyer, plus the time... it's not like you're lemon lawing the car. However, I think that if you took it to small claims with the dealer, maybe you have a chance.

[Griffin]

Originally posted by heltor2
So you're saying I should sue the dealership? I thought since the dealership is a representative of Toyota it would all be the same. If a dealership messes up, Toyota messed up. I should go after the individual dealership?

Heltor

Yeah dude - if they put ATF in your tranny its THEIR fault its messed up, NOT Toyota's. Its also their fault if they didn't adjust teh clutch properly. Take them to small claims. THEY are the ones who messed up your car, your anger is mis-directed, thats not Toyota's fault at all.

Wow, I just read your arbitration papers... Toyota spent more on warranty work that you bought your car for already bro, and most of it hasn't been their fault. Your actually pretty lucky.

Griffin

[heltor2]

1. Clearing up the 2000 6 Speed Shifter problem

Toyota's position on the shifting problems is shown below directly from my shifter spring install invoice:

OVERREVVING FROM DOWN SHIFTING AT HIGH RPM/POOR DESIGN-NO SHIFTR SPRINGS

That is all the arbitrator should need to see to rule in my favor on that.

2. Toyota Headquarters vs. Toyota Dealership

Toyota did not decline to repair the transmission because they noticed that the dealership had put the wrong fluid in my transmission, they declined it because of "abuse".

If they would have stated that they were declining to do the repair due to the dealership's mistake it would not be their problem and the dealership most likely would have corrected their mistake at no cost to me. But since they accused me of "abuse" it became Toyota's problem and my anger is directed at the right party.

With no evidence whatsoever, and knowing they had a questionable shifter in their car which caused my previous problems, they accused me of "abuse".

As far as the dealership. They are a branch of Toyota. They have to follow Toyota's rules and report to Toyota. I don't care whose fault it actually is with the automatic transmission fluid and the clutch pedal adjustment as long as Toyota fixes the problem. They declined my warranty. If Toyota wants to fight with the dealership, they may. They shouldn't put that off on the consumer. They should get me reimbursed for repairs first, and then worry about which department the money is coming from. The dealership is Toyota's representative to the public. This separation of a company's internal entities should be transparent to the end consumer.

Heltor

Toyota quotes(made up):
"We've come up with a new policy on solving technical issues with our cars. We like to let our customers discover problems, figure out what is causing them, tell us how to fix them, document this procedure and share it with us if at all possible"

Top 5 quotes from Toyota technicians(Actual quotes):
5. "Wow, you're really revving this thing up high. You shouldn't do that."

4. "A little belt lube will fix that squeal"

3. "It down-shifted smoothly for us"

2. "What happens after 6200 RPM's? Variable lift? What's that?"

And number 1 ladies and gentlemen!

1. "That ticking noise is normal"

Acura/Honda
"We can handle high RPM's"


P.S.

If anyone would like a copy of the invoice that states that the shifter springs were installed to correct for poor design for evidence at arbitration or court please private message me.

Also, if anyone has a copy of the database of mis-shifters that GTS LAID compiled please let me know. I will need that for my case.

Thanks a lot!

[Willis5050]

Ok, first, who wrote that invoice? Was it Toyota or the dealership? If it wasn't Toyota of America then you got nothing, no admission of weak design, nothing.

The dealership is NOT a brach of toyota. You can buy a Pepsi at Wal-Mart, but that certainly does not mean that Pepsi owns Wal-Mart. If you get overcharged for that Pepsi when you buy it, who do you go for to get a refund? Hopefully you go back to Wal Mart and not directly to Pepsi. Same goes with the dealership. They sold you a Toyota product, buy you paid THEM to do the service, not Toyota. You are barking up the wrong tree and it is only going to cost you time and money. I think you need to do some research before you proceed any further.

[Brett]

Originally posted by Willis5050
Ok, first, who wrote that invoice? Was it Toyota or the dealership? If it wasn't Toyota of America then you got nothing, no admission of weak design, nothing.

The dealership is NOT a brach of toyota. You can buy a Pepsi at Wal-Mart, but that certainly does not mean that Pepsi owns Wal-Mart. If you get overcharged for that Pepsi when you buy it, who do you go for to get a refund? Hopefully you go back to Wal Mart and not directly to Pepsi. Same goes with the dealership. They sold you a Toyota product, buy you paid THEM to do the service, not Toyota. You are barking up the wrong tree and it is only going to cost you time and money. I think you need to do some research before you proceed any further.

:werd:

[LaW]

Originally posted by heltor2


1. "That ticking noise is normal"




Actually there is a ticking noise and it is normal :) idiot

[heltor2]

They later discovered that it was bent valves.

Heltor

P.S. I guess I'll look into convincing the dealer to reimburse me or sue them

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by Willis5050
Covering misshifts IS goodwill by Toyota, and certainly they should not replace your car after being nice and replacing the first engine/tranny. How many times did YOU misshift?


This is a very good point. Toyota is under no legal obligation to cover misshifts under warranty. It is a goodwill gesture. Too many Celica owners aren't willing to accept their own mistakes. You misshifted, you should pay to fix it. Simple as that.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by LaW



Actually there is a ticking noise and it is normal :) idiot
Exactly what I was thinking. All DOHC engines tick. If the ticking is too loud, then you have possible problem, like valves out of adjustment.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by heltor2
They later discovered that it was bent valves.

Heltor

P.S. I guess I'll look into convincing the dealer to reimburse me or sue them
On what grounds? Do you know the difference in thermal and lubricating properties between ATF and 75W-90 gear oil? They'll bring in an engineer who does, and he'll testify that the effect on the gear hardware from the different fluid is not significant enough to cause the damage you reported. And he/she will be correct in their analysis. You better think how you'll respond to that. None of your posts suggest that you understand the effects of ATF in manual transmission.

[autxr]

For quite a few years one of the Warner? manual transmissions for the Mustangs actually specifed using ATF.

Many folks will run ATF in a manual tranny for easier shifting, hell you can put 5W30 motor oil in your manual tranny and it will last longer than you care to own the car.

Scott

[heltor2]

I realize that some manual transmissions call for ATF but this is not one of them.

Yakkosmurf:
Could you explain it? My belief is that it will run hot and eventually cause internal damage because it is thinner then gear lube and doesn't lubricate as well. The car ran for 12,000 miles with the ATF. Does that sound right?

What about the excessive free play in my clutch pedal? Would you all agree that that would eventually cause synchros to wear down and destroy the transmission along with putting extra stress on shifter cables?

[yakkosmurf]

Autoxr is right. Many people do run ATF in the manual trannies. ATF is actually used as both a lubricant and a hydraulic fluid. It is much more resistant to high temps. Thicker viscocity does NOT mean better lubrication. It's very application dependent. Most manual tranmissions can easily run for 100k miles with ATF in them (if the fluid level is right). The transmission only last 12k miles either shows a defect in the material from the factory, or excessive wear because of driving habits. The only way to tell for sure it to take it apart and do failure analysis on the parts.

As for the freeplay in the clutch, it can be more than one thing too. It's not necessarily an indication of something wrong with the clutch mechanism itself. Many times, it's simply the pedal itself out of adjustment. If your clutch pedal height is set incorrectly, the clutch can have excessive play or may not disengage or engage enough to permit normal operation. The adjustments for this can be found on the pedal bracket under the dash.

Bottom line is I don't think Toyota is at fault, and I don't think you're going to have much luck in court. It does sound like the dealer made mistakes, but you haven't presented any hard evidence here that their mistakes caused your problems. You can't just go into court and say, "They made these mistake, and I had these problems, so I should be compensated." You have to show with a preponderance of the evidence that the mistakes led to you specific problems. In this case, I don't think your evidence even comes close to doing that. Furthermore, as mentioned previously, you will have to look into the legal justifications of suing Toyota for the dealer's mistakes. From what it sounds like, you're already ahead in this game. You messed the car up initially, and Toyota fixed it for free when they didn't have to. Now you're asking them to do more after problems with your new engine and tranny. That's asking a lot.

[Griffin]

You guys are wrong about the fluid. The trans calls for API GL 4 or GL 5 75-90 gear oil. It in no way states that it is permissible for this transmission to run ATF, and while a customer may choose to experiment with alternative fluids if they feel that the manufacturers spec is wrong, the dealer is not at liberty to decide that on behalf of the consumer without the direction of Toyota to do so. And I can gaurantee you that Toyota is NOT telling anyone to put ATF in a C60 trans. Also viscosity DOES come into play in the sheer rate of a lube through the syncros which will affect shift quality - Dexron 3 has a relative viscosity roughly equivalent to that of 30 to 40 weight engine oil. This can be seen in the fact that racing trans buiders will often use straight 30 weight to provide a good quailty firm shift in an automatic racing trans. There are some friction modifiers in ATF that arent in 30 or 40 weight, but they come into play with regards to the smooth apply of huge flat clutchpacks, not syncros. ATF WILL sheer faster than 75 90 especially in high heat.

The fact is the dealer used the wrong fluid and the trans is having problems. The burden of proof should NOT be on the customer. What proof does the dealer have that he is abusing it? None - save for teh fact that they know EVERYONE drives these cars kind of hard because that is how they are designed to be run. If you can point out to me where in the owners manual it says you can't shift over 6K I will concede that you have a point. However what were looking at here is a case of Dealer negligence. I don't blame Toyota for not throwing them under the bus either, thats not their job. Its a limited franchise NOT a factory owned service center, the factory is NOT responsible for mistakes on the part of the dealership in this sense. That would be like saying they would be responsible if a tech left your drainplug out and your engine cooked - its silly.

Griffin

[heltor2]

When my transmission was grinding I repeatedly told the dealer that I believed that the problem was being caused by the clutch not disengaging all of the way and they told me that they couldn't adjust it because it was hydraulic. Turns out they could have adjusted the pedal but didn't, just replaced the transmission without fixing the underlying cause of the problem. The transmission did not go out with the mis-shift, but when they changed the engine, this is when they must have introduced the excessive clutch pedal free play causing it not to disengage fully.

Both transmissions died nearly the same way, beginning with grinding when downshifting.

1st transmission( replaced after the engine was replaced under warranty when I believe excess free play was introduced )
Began grinding when downshifting, they replaced it under warranty before it could get worse. This is when they introduced the automatic transmission fluid.

2nd transmission:
Began grinding when downshifting, then got stuck in neutral. They replaced the cables under warranty, but denied the warranty on fixing the grinding. It finally got stuck in 4th gear and I had to pay to replace the transmission because they denied it.

Let's just forget the automatic transmission fluid for a second and look at the excessive free play. The dealer that I ended up having to pay to replace the transmission said that the clutch pedal free play was way out of spec and he put on the invoice:

CLUTCH PEDAL HAD EXCESSIVE FREE PLAY, ADJUSTED TO PROPER FREE PLAY

Wouldn't that be a major cause of grinding and stress on the shifter cables if this was causing the clutch not to disengage all of the way?

Anyone have any experience with this?

Heltor

[mtn02gts]

I can't imagine continuing to drive with no free play. I don't see how you could shift at all. I'm still getting used to pushing all the way down as it is and when I don't, it's clear from all the required effort (and noise) that something's wrong.

[Griffin]

Originally posted by heltor2
When my transmission was grinding I repeatedly told the dealer that I believed that the problem was being caused by the clutch not disengaging all of the way and they told me that they couldn't adjust it because it was hydraulic. Turns out they could have adjusted the pedal but didn't, just replaced the transmission without fixing the underlying cause of the problem. The transmission did not go out with the mis-shift, but when they changed the engine, this is when they must have introduced the excessive clutch pedal free play causing it not to disengage fully.

Both transmissions died nearly the same way, beginning with grinding when downshifting.

1st transmission( replaced after the engine was replaced under warranty when I believe excess free play was introduced )
Began grinding when downshifting, they replaced it under warranty before it could get worse. This is when they introduced the automatic transmission fluid.

2nd transmission:
Began grinding when downshifting, then got stuck in neutral. They replaced the cables under warranty, but denied the warranty on fixing the grinding. It finally got stuck in 4th gear and I had to pay to replace the transmission because they denied it.

Let's just forget the automatic transmission fluid for a second and look at the excessive free play. The dealer that I ended up having to pay to replace the transmission said that the clutch pedal free play was way out of spec and he put on the invoice:

CLUTCH PEDAL HAD EXCESSIVE FREE PLAY, ADJUSTED TO PROPER FREE PLAY

Wouldn't that be a major cause of grinding and stress on the shifter cables if this was causing the clutch not to disengage all of the way?

Anyone have any experience with this?

Heltor

Hmm you do have a point - if you were not able to achieve adequate clutch throw all that time then yeah - that would totally contribute to / cause problems like this. The clutch HAS to be able to decouple the trans from the engine COMPLETELY to be able to shift normally.