AWD Dyno Tune! [Archive] - NewCelica.org Forum

AWD-TRIIX

04-19-2011, 09:44 PM

Well I'm making a trip to Dallas for my son's soccer tournament Friday (4/22) and will get a chance to put my car on a AWD Dyno. With the Dyno and Tuning it'll be $700 (ouch). They said it'll take between 5-7 hours to do the job. The place is called Jotech Motorsports( http://www.jotechracing.com/index.php ) in Garland TX. There are 3 other AWD Dynos in Dallas area (maybe more) 2 won't touch it because it's a Toyota and/or it's the Greddy EMU. The other has no experience with the Greddy EMU but willing to try it. These guys know the EMU and about the 1zz/2zz.

What should I look for and what should I expect? Should I go ahead and put the 2zz (310cc) injectors in? Should I keep the 5th injector and have them set it up (I have the wiring to the EMU done on the channel C for 5th injector)? What other questions should I ask? Would love to hear feedback?

My setup:
2005 Toyota Matrix XR Auto AWD
TRD SC (TRD Pulley)
TRD 5th Injector
Cat-Back exhaust 2.25" Crushed bent (Yea I know...get over it)
SRI
Greddy EMU
ABV Mod (Bypass Vac Switch)

Parts in hand:
2zz injectors

cool2miketlu

04-19-2011, 10:00 PM

waste of money, you are flushing your $700 down the toilet.
No substantial modification, using a piggyback which will be overwritten over time.

Boosted2.0

04-20-2011, 11:10 AM

$100 / hr. for AWD dyno time and tuning is not a bad price, but Mike is right. EMU tuning takes weeks if not more because you need to tippy toe around the closed loop sections.

AWD-TRIIX

04-20-2011, 05:56 PM

Yes I heard that it's good practice to reset the stock ECU from time to time. Other than that I'm not sure what you mean by the EMU being over written? Perhaps over ruled? What is you suggestion?

bt216

04-20-2011, 06:48 PM

^swap you ecu with a PFC.

lajlijthoj

04-20-2011, 08:27 PM

AWD? I hear a bunch of people saying that it doesn't hold power. You having a SC on it, how is it holding? Asking since you're the only guy I know on the forums with AWD and some sort of force induction. And do please show us your dyno sheets, it might just confirm that the AWD system in the matrix can hold some sort of power; but I really want to see it holding near 300tq if possible.

bt216

04-20-2011, 08:57 PM

No way. His trd charged 1zz will be lucky to see 200tq. It will not handle 300tq

cool2miketlu

04-20-2011, 11:20 PM

Yes I heard that it's good practice to reset the stock ECU from time to time. Other than that I'm not sure what you mean by the EMU being over written? Perhaps over ruled? What is you suggestion?

Toyota ECU is too smart, it will detect anomalies caused by forced induction and slowly adjust settings to what it likes... ECU will always adjust to something that is not good for the car, and always get you less power than what you got on the dyno. I believe it may adjust to a point where it may cause engine damage.
I am not sure if PowerFC is a drop in for you, but if it is the cheapest permanent alternative. You have full control over your ECU and your tuning will not be over-written.

cool2miketlu

04-20-2011, 11:22 PM

but I really want to see it holding near 300tq if possible.

I highly doubt that it can be done with TRD super charger even with custom pullies, standalone, lots of custom work on engine...

smart_rocket

04-21-2011, 05:35 AM

Toyota ECU is too smart, it will detect anomalies caused by forced induction and slowly adjust settings to what it likes... ECU will always adjust to something that is not good for the car, and always get you less power than what you got on the dyno. I believe it may adjust to a point where it may cause engine damage.
I am not sure if PowerFC is a drop in for you, but if it is the cheapest permanent alternative. You have full control over your ECU and your tuning will not be over-written.
yes, but actually the purpose of a good piggyback tune is that the ECU will see no anomalies, hence it will do no corrections. Simply said, sometimes hard to achieve...

evilthorne

04-21-2011, 05:51 AM

What is this 2001 or something?

This magic overwriting ECM is called long and short fuel trims, we know this, so why are we talking about it like it is voodoo? On my GReddy SC trix I am using the Emanage ultimate with NO issues overwriting the tune. You can accomplish this with either using an emulator on the O2 to make it think that it is running stoich even though it is not or the method I used was a spoof to make the car think it was in open loop whenever boost came on by simulating 60% TPS signal.

Also the TRD blower is so small your lucky to see 180lb ft of torque though the main failing point is the harsh shifts produced by it.

AWD-TRIIX

04-21-2011, 06:18 AM

All I'm not looking to build a subie killer. LOL If I get to 150WHP I'll be very happy (It is only at 100whp now and not sure will how the torque will run). This is a DD and maybe some AutoX and Track Day car. So I'm trying to get a safe potential out of this Setup.

Evil I need to hear more about setting up the O2 sensor or TPS feedback. I also heard that ressetting the ECU on a regular basis will fix this issue.

One other note: I take very good care of this car and upgraded all the fluids, Mobil 1 in the engine, AMSoil in the Tranny (with cooler) and AMSoil in the Transfer car and rear diff. Also had to repair a leak in the Diff also.

Smaay

04-21-2011, 03:46 PM

you have the WRONG platform to even attempt Suburu killer. in fact you have the worst AWD platform to attempt such a feat without putting $$$$$$ into it

AWD-TRIIX

04-21-2011, 07:29 PM

you have the WRONG platform to even attempt Suburu killer. in fact you have the worst AWD platform to attempt such a feat without putting $$$$$$ into it

Perhaps you should read that I'm NOT looking to make a Subie killer. This will be a DD. I'm an adult (Old guy really) and that is how it will be driven on a daily basis. That's not to say I won't open it up a bit, take a few nice corners and maybe scare some ricers. But I will be looking forward to some track days and AutoX once in awhile.

My wife thinks it a mid-life crisis thing and thinks it's better than chasing women :p:.

This is a very rare setup and only 2 others that I know of in North America. But neither of those have been on an AWD Dyno.

lajlijthoj

04-21-2011, 08:40 PM

GL!! And bt216 and cool2miketlu I'm not talking about the 1zz I was talking about the awd system holding some sort of power, 300tq is really high even for DD 2zz turbo's; but like I said I'm talking about the awd drive train and how it would hold power since people always talking about it not being very strong. Smaay, input on the awd's and why they can't handle real power? Other than it's crap and you're wasting money. Thanks. :D

bt216

04-21-2011, 08:56 PM

The matrix/vibe awd system was so weak they only offered it with and auto 1zz.

lajlijthoj

04-21-2011, 09:18 PM

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3030394

This should be useful. Sometimes our search system doesn't do the trick, so we have google.

evilthorne

04-22-2011, 04:59 PM

The transmission is the weak part, if you could convert it over to manual it would be better off.

Furthermore it only came with automatic because that was the demographic they were aiming for...

AWD-TRIIX

04-25-2011, 06:59 AM

Well it didn't go as well as I hope. He did 11 Pulls and could only get 139.4 HP and 195.2 Ft/lbs Tor. He made the runs in first gear. The base run with out a tune (no TRD ECU) was 106 and it did start leaning out at 5K rpms. I very rarely would go 4K after the TRD ECU adapter crapped out.

It was warm about 90deg F, and high humidity. Also he said the 5th or the 2zz injectors wouldn't do much good. Also he felt I could dump the SRI and put the TRD Modified stock air box in and not affect the tune.

Gts*Jason

04-25-2011, 06:01 PM

First gear??

lajlijthoj

04-25-2011, 06:30 PM

Are those numbers at the wheel or flywheel? And first gear? I haven't seen/heard of that kind of pull, it's usually a higher gear. And it seems 200tq and the rear hasn't crapped out yet? Hope to hear another update on how it's doing a few weeks from now. GL.

AWD-TRIIX

04-25-2011, 08:05 PM

The number are at the wheel. Also it's an auto and said it kept on down shifting when trying to make a run. What gear should it normally done in 3rd? (in Auto with OD off)

lajlijthoj

04-25-2011, 08:17 PM

I forgot your car was auto, so I'm not really sure. But those are great numbers IMO. I'm really surprised at the tq.

evilthorne

04-26-2011, 04:43 AM

I think the torque is an anomoly Usually they make around 140-165tq, Basically the same as the HP.

Smaay

04-26-2011, 06:41 AM

that not right because it was done in 1st gear. your dyno shop has no clue what they are doing. NOBODY does a dyno in 1st gear. And another reason it didnt go well, is cause i told you so.

Boosted2.0

04-26-2011, 06:51 AM

that not right because it was done in 1st gear. your dyno shop has no clue what they are doing. NOBODY does a dyno in 1st gear. And another reason it didnt go well, is cause i told you so.

They did it in first gear to try and be able to hit the full rev range. The problem is the loading is very low in 1st and doesn't handle tuning for the higher gears. Tuning autos is a royal PITA.

Gts*Jason

04-26-2011, 07:12 AM

Im with smaay, the tuner is an idiot. Just bc tuning an auto is a pain in theass, doesnt mean you find the easiest copout. Once I get my AWD section of my dyno installed Ill give you a shout.

AWD-TRIIX

04-26-2011, 07:55 AM

Well these guy have a very good rep. Jotech Motorsorts Dallas. What would you suggest I do. (Did pay with a CC)

smart_rocket

04-26-2011, 10:04 AM

no dyno graph?

AWD-TRIIX

04-26-2011, 11:16 AM

Well the graph I have suxs. It's so light you can barely make out the HP line. I ask him to send a new one.

Boosted2.0

04-26-2011, 02:31 PM

Well these guy have a very good rep. Jotech Motorsorts Dallas. What would you suggest I do. (Did pay with a CC)

Install a wideband O2, read all of Jlitman's stuff on tuning the EMU and learn to tune yourself. You will go broke paying someone else to tune an auto with an EMU, unless they have the right hardware for their dyno (Can module interfaced with dyno so fuel trims and stock ecu RPM data can overlay on the wideband O2 data and power numbers)

Even then you are still stuck with your N/A VVTi maps.

GoatOfRafin

04-27-2011, 02:05 AM

You can also install a V-Manage if you have the money in order to tune VVT and lift point. I did and works fine!

Gts*Jason

04-27-2011, 07:12 AM

Or a CAMCOM...

Boosted2.0

04-27-2011, 07:45 AM

True. In his case with the auto thats probably not a bad option.

But seriously to the OP - the MOST important thing you need to do is learn how to log and tune.

Gts*Jason

04-27-2011, 07:15 PM

I was sitting here thinking about how awesome a 2zz swap would be with a stand alone ems wired in in parallel. Im thinking pretty sweet. Hmmm, new project maybe.

purpleharo

04-27-2011, 07:30 PM

^i think that is a sweet idea and deserves its own thread!

AWD-TRIIX

04-28-2011, 08:00 AM

I was sitting here thinking about how awesome a 2zz swap would be with a stand alone ems wired in in parallel. Im thinking pretty sweet. Hmmm, new project maybe.

You can't put a 2zz or Manual Tranny in a AWD Matrix. Well I suppose you if you wanted to spend 10K.

AWD-TRIIX

04-28-2011, 08:04 AM

Install a wideband O2, read all of Jlitman's stuff on tuning the EMU and learn to tune yourself. You will go broke paying someone else to tune an auto with an EMU, unless they have the right hardware for their dyno (Can module interfaced with dyno so fuel trims and stock ecu RPM data can overlay on the wideband O2 data and power numbers)

Even then you are still stuck with your N/A VVTi maps.

I have an AEM wideband installed and connected to the EMU along with a Greddy Boost sensor. I recently look over Jlitman's EMU tuning and the links on it. If I coulld spend some Q&A time with an EMU tuner I'd be more comfortable doing it myself.

AWD-TRIIX

04-28-2011, 08:05 AM

Well today I had a real scare. Went to make a left hand turn and did a moderate acceleration the car stumbled then finally took off. Had a semi get to close for comfort. I was able to reproduce it but havn't logged it on the EMU. Not sure I could let me children or wife drive the car at this time. Not Good!

I about ready to dump the EMU Tune and make a new adapter/harness for the TRD ECU. I may not make as much power but at least I don't need to worry about getting killed.

Gts*Jason

04-28-2011, 08:11 AM

You can't put a 2zz or Manual Tranny in a AWD Matrix. Well I suppose you if you wanted to spend 10K.

No one said anything about a manual transmission but if your 1zz fits Im about 99.9% sure my 2zz will fit

AWD-TRIIX

04-28-2011, 08:45 AM

No one said anything about a manual transmission but if your 1zz fits Im about 99.9% sure my 2zz will fit
There's something to do with the AWD transfer case. It has been discussed on Matrixowners and Genvibe several times.

Boosted2.0

04-28-2011, 08:54 AM

You can't put a 2zz or Manual Tranny in a AWD Matrix. Well I suppose you if you wanted to spend 10K.

Yes you can do it. Cost would be as follows:

1 Used motor
1 Passenger side mount
1 Power FC
1 patch harness to run Power FC (I can make it easily - same thing I do for auto GTS basically)
second coolant temp sensor, adapter to install it and wiring
wiring to the lift OCV and press sensor
throttle cable

I figure about $600 for the wiring and coolant sensor. $1000 for PFC. $2200 for engine and mount and throttle cable

So maybe $4K? Only real issue will be the horrible shift points which don't even come close to matching a 2ZZ's performance characteristics.

to make it worthwhile you would need to use a standalone capable of controlling that transmission, and THAT would be a pricey and time consuming affair.

Gts*Jason

04-28-2011, 08:33 PM

There's something to do with the AWD transfer case. It has been discussed on Matrixowners and Genvibe several times.

I dont see any of them pushing the 2ZZ/1ZZ motors like the rest of us. The blocks are the same shape. If it hasnt been done yet its bc of lack of trying. ****, Ill do the install for free in my shop just to prove that it can be done. Some one provide the car and the motor and Ill pull and install them my self.

Yes you can do it. Cost would be as follows:

1 Used motor
1 Passenger side mount
1 Power FC
1 patch harness to run Power FC (I can make it easily - same thing I do for auto GTS basically)
second coolant temp sensor, adapter to install it and wiring
wiring to the lift OCV and press sensor
throttle cable

I figure about $600 for the wiring and coolant sensor. $1000 for PFC. $2200 for engine and mount and throttle cable

So maybe $4K? Only real issue will be the horrible shift points which don't even come close to matching a 2ZZ's performance characteristics.

to make it worthwhile you would need to use a standalone capable of controlling that transmission, and THAT would be a pricey and time consuming affair.

Not to sure I would settle on the PFC, I would go with something a little more substantial. AEM or Hydra just to make sure I have the expansion capability.

evilthorne

04-29-2011, 04:47 AM

I entertained this idea awhile back, but use a 03 matrix 2zz auto ECM to control the whole setup. The motor would bolt in, just requires the 2zz harness which I have extra and a custom exhaust manifold. Other then that swap her in and be done with it.

I also thought about E154 swap with 2zz into AWD matrix and buy AWD trix remove all drivetrain swap in 2zz with c60 just for the independent suspension.

Instead I just went out and bought an 09 STi, more important right now to have a car that works with all of it's interior instead of a work in progress Down the road for sure I will be picking up another toyota.

Your right on guys pushing it on our forums, we have a few 300+whp trixies running gt28's two guys running GT30's Lots of TRD supercharged 1zz, My Greddy supercharged trix and another guy with the TTE supercharger. All in all people who buy these cars tend to be cheap plus if they were car enthusiasts they would have bought something better right?

Gts*Jason

04-29-2011, 07:15 AM

2zz auto ecm to control the transmission and an EMS for the engine. Wouldnt be hard to do at all. My offer still stands if anyone wants to take it.

AWD-TRIIX

04-30-2011, 07:20 PM

Gezz! We are WAY off topic. I just want this car 05 Matrix XR (1zz) A/T, AWD and TRD SC to run right with a Greddy EMU. No I don't want to put down 200whp nor do I want to drift in it.

Sorry Evil but to me Subie's are ugly. GTS if I lived closer I may take you up on that. Boosted I have a Greddy EMU and don't want to mess with anything else right now. With all due respect all but this thread is about getting help with MY setup! At this time I'm about to dump the Greddy and make a new harness for the TRD ECU until I can find someone that can tune it.

Thanks all for your input but please help me with what I have!