GT With GT-S head???

[BoyRacer]

I know someone has to be thinking this? I know it can be done, youd need the complete head, intake plenum, throttle body, the ECU, & have to change the fuel system maybe. but asuming those can be done. why has no one done it yet? technically you could use the 5 spd tranny also, which would prevent those nasty mishifts. hmm. i dont think it would be that expenisve if you found a head & intake in a junk yard, and ECU. you know. i am curious.

[BoyRacer]

actually scratch that ECu part, youd prolly need a programable stand alone system. still. with the lighter tranny, and block prolly. asuming it was all done correctly, thats would be a fast bizatch. you could play around with when the vvtl-i kicks in and dookey like that.

[larryd]

becuase its not a direct bolt on.. its something that requires heavy modification..but it has been done in Japan on an MR2..

[BoyRacer]

so the block and head would need to be machined? i guees to be threaded? do you know which ends needed what modifications?

[Spoolin]

I just got the GT block from toyota, and a GTS head with bent valves. I'll but getting the replacement valves, and custom rods and pistons made within the next month or two.. No expectations on completion.. but i'm working on it. Email me if you want to know more.

[simphmerj]

i am curious as to what the point of this is....i'm assuming this is intended for the GT guys who regret not buying a GT-S. if i'm wrong, please let me know.

why wouldn't you just buy a 2ZZ out of a wrecked GT-S and swap it in w/ your choice of tranny (i think....the 5 and 6 speed bolts right up to the 1ZZ, assuming the 5 would bolt up to the 2ZZ)? that me thinks would be much cheaper.

i'm also assuming you know that the 1ZZ and 2ZZ have different bores (and strokes obviously)...

allan

[Slant]

Why do people build frankesteins rather than just dropping another motor in?

[BoyRacer]

Well when i got into college i got this car new as a gift. of coarse i would have rather had the gt-s, but whos going to argue with a free car paid off in your name. second of all, yes i know the insides are different. i would do it for originality sake, and i know it would be quick. its a project, i dunno. breakin the norm, ya know. it will cost between 3-6 k to drop in a gt-s motor. it would be cheaper, do it yourself, this way. -------i think. cuas eoy only have to buy some steal braded lines, do aome machining, and buy a used head inatke and ECU.

[Spoolin]

Because in japan when they put the 2zz head on the 1zz block they made 245-250hp(crank). Have you guys ever heard of the honda Ls/Vtec they are making way more power than regular vtec motors because of the Stroke difference. The Ls (our GT) has a bigger stroke, so essentially puttin gthe 2zz head on there witht he gt stroke you're looking at at 1.9 liter motor.. Again i by no means claim anything, i'm still working on it, i have no proof of it working on the celica's except for that japanese article, but logistically it "should" work the same as it does work for a honda Ls/vtec.

[marcus_GTS]

so essentially puttin gthe 2zz head on there witht he gt stroke you're looking at at 1.9 liter motor.

Umm... no.


Displacement = piston area x stroke, and changing the head will not change either of these, so the displacement will be identical. What will change is your overall combustion chamber size, and therefore the compression ratio.

I definitely think a 1ZZFE with a 2ZZ head would have better low end torque than the stock 2zz, but I don't know about the horsepower. Basically, the 2zz gets its power rating from its high maximum speed. With the longer stroke of the 1zz, you probably won't be able to spin to 8000 rpm like the 2zz, so you'd need significantly more torque just to equal the 2zz power output, let alone surpass it.

[Spoolin]

Thats your theory, but honda ls/vtec has proven it. It makes more power. Ls bottom end, vtec head. And i have the japanese article of them putting the 2zz head on there, with the HP numbers of 245-250ps. Don't argue with me, i'm just stating things i've seen (jap article) and things i know (honda ls/vtec).

[Slant]

Hey John. How far have you gone with this project? Is there a way I can the the article?

[BoyRacer]

Well john those are the same reasons why i want to build the sucker. i am in love with those ls/ v-tec's i wanna build one so bad. and i thought to my self hey GT/ gt-s head, same principle. so i side with jonh thats basically why i brought it up. in theory it should work. and the japanese are the proof. i would like the articles as well if its not a big problem. i was thinking of hitting a junk yard up here that has all new cars soon to see if they have any GT-s's hehe. a friend of mine can figure anything out when it comes to trouble shooting with engines, and modifying stock components, so i could technically do it myself with him.

[simphmerj]

Originally posted by Spoolin
Because in japan when they put the 2zz head on the 1zz block they made 245-250hp(crank). Have you guys ever heard of the honda Ls/Vtec they are making way more power than regular vtec motors because of the Stroke difference. The Ls (our GT) has a bigger stroke, so essentially puttin gthe 2zz head on there witht he gt stroke you're looking at at 1.9 liter motor.. Again i by no means claim anything, i'm still working on it, i have no proof of it working on the celica's except for that japanese article, but logistically it "should" work the same as it does work for a honda Ls/vtec.

i'd like to see proof of 245 hp from just putting a 2zz head on a 1zz block please. that is just silly. you're NOT gaining any displacement (same 1ZZ block = same 1.8 displacement). you'd be destroying the S2000's record of NA specific output (i know it'd be easier cuz of less stringent emissions, but still i'm talking about just switching heads, not any other custom work such as new cams, p&p, stronger higher revving internals). also, the GT has lower compression than the GT-S so you shouldn't even expect to see 180 hp from a head swap. hp is a function of torque and engine speed. the GT-S makes its max power at a speed the GT can't even achieve (i'm assuming no GT owner who wants his engine to last more than 10K miles has repeatedly gone to 7.6K rpm). to take full advantage of the increased lift, you need sufficient port velocity (the same reason decreasing cam changeover points in variable lift systems can decrease power).

i've heard of people w/ a "3ZZ", a 1ZZ crank in a 2ZZ....that would be stroking it, but is it really worth the money?

allan

[autxr]

Ahhh, the smell.. Just like a farm. Lots of bull sh!t.

The japanese conversion that has been done and given good yields is the "3ZZ" as already mentioned. a 1ZZ crank on the GTS block. Good for 1.9 liters.

That is a bump in displacement. As they say, "There's no replacement for displacement."

That is why the Acura LS block with vtec head works. The LS is a bigger displacement motor. You end up with more displacement, and likely a small chamber volume (so increased compression ratio).

If you had an old Celica (RWD) you would put a 20R cylinder head (20R is 2.2 liter) on the 22R (2.4 liter) block. That resulted in a bump to about 10:1 compression (up from the 8.4:1 of the 20R and the 9:1 of the 22R) and an increase in displacement (for the 20R folks). The 20R head also flowed much better, so a big cam worked better.

Similarly you do the same with an 8R cylinder head on a 18R block, a 2T head on the 3T block, and a 4A head on the 7A block.

BUT, every one of those things results in what? More displacement and a smaller chamber volume (relative to the starting point). So, more displacment, more compression.

What does a GTS head on the GT block give you?

An engine that is less willing to rev, but still has the same chamber volume and same displacement. The best you could hope for is the same output of the GTS.

That being said, I suspect the GTS head will bolt up to the GT block, though I've not seen this confirmed yet. The longer stroke of the GT motor mite give a bit better low end grunt, which isnt' such a bad thing.

Me, I'd want to do the crank modification, not a cylinder head swap.

If the head swap did work (assuming all the oil passages line up, all bolt holes line up, etc) the GTS ECU should be just fine.

Does anyone know if the longer stroke 1ZZ has the same deck height as the 2ZZ? It sure would suck to get all of this done and find out you need to fabricate a shorter timing chain to make it all work.

Scott

[Spoolin]

To the people who are doubting this.. please. .pretty please tell me why the honda ls bottom end with the vtec head makes more HP and more Torque.. and still can rev to 8k plus.. and why the celica would not be able to do the same. the honda LS/vtec has PROVEN it makes more HP and TORQUE.. so why do you still try to claim that its impossible?????

[Deaks2]

A 1ZZ block would have to bored to accept a 2ZZ head.

The 1ZZ will not rev as high either...

The "3ZZ" project is a much better idea from the start, high revin 2ZZ with a 1ZZ crank.

With the LS/VTEC mod it was easier cause those two variants of the B18 had similar dimmensions and rev'ed to about the same speeds.

[GTS LAID]

why didnt they do this from the factory to begin with if its such a good idea? ... for the 2zz i mean.. it seams like much less trouble than developing a completely different engine.

[SY2KCelica]

well the ls/vtec swap is proven to work but that doesnt mean that the GT/GTShead swap will work...i could see it working but i dont know the torque numbers and i'm too lazy to look em up...if the GT has more torque than the GTS...as long as everything fits..then it should work but who knows...more power to ya though cuz if it werent for peeps like you we would get nowhere..its all about experimenting....i like those can make the effort......

[icyjaws]

John,
Why not just stoke the the 2zz. Either by getting a custom crank or by putting in a 1zz crank. Would a 1zz crank fit the 2zz i know there is a diff in one of the bearing sizes i think. If one got a 1zz crank and prolly custom rods would the crank hold up? Would prolly need to be balanced tho right?

[Spoolin]

I went to toyota and ordered the crank seals for the gt and the gts.. they both shared one part number for one side of the crank.. i believe it was the rear, however the other side of the cranks seal was completely different in size.. Putting the 1zz crank in was my original plan... but it didn't seem like it was possible.. Thats why i don't really know what they did in that japanese article for sure.. i want to say they they swapped heads and not cranks like everyone thinks, because you can see them bolting the head down.. so i'm not too sure... but this is something i'm working on and it just sucks when people are so negative about this when it could turn out to be great for the celica community. Why not show support in the project.

[icyjaws]

Well john good luck but i think i'm just going to get a 2zz stroked if i can't get a 1zz crank into the block i have a guess i'll have to talk to someone about getting a crank made :( . Any one have a 1zz crank they want to lend me to see if it will fit? Dave?

[autxr]

The front crank seals should be the same. My impression is that the rear of the GTS crank is bigger than the GT crank (this is where the flywheel bolts up, so it makes sense that the GTS is beffier). All you need to do is fabricate an adapter to make the GT crank seal work (not that hard actually, a little CNC work on a piece of aluminum.

The rod and main bearings are the same on the engine. I've looked at the service specs and they measure the same.

Spoolin-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the integra LS block 2.0 liters and the vtec head off of a 1.6 or 1.8 liter block?

More displacement = more power. That simple.

Scott

[Spoolin]

The LS is a 1.8 Yes the gts rear seal was bigger, the house that the seal goes into on the block doesn't bolt up, so either A. get a new seal made? Or get the block fabricated to fit the smaller seal.. which i don't know how good it would seal, or how much i'd trust it.. that breaks then you could have a whole lot of trouble for your motor. Using the GT crank, you would have to get custom rods / pistons because of the bigger stroke you would hit the head.. I believe the whole advantage of the process is to get the torque from the stroke, and then have the advantage of the head being vvtli (vtec) with the aggressiveness of the cams and the free'r flowing head. I'm not claiming to know facts.. just my theories from what i've heard.

[Loves2Rev]

I don't know much about head swaps and what not but I just wanna say that Spoolin should be given props because he is at least attempting something new.

I hope everything works out well for you man and I would love to see teh results.

[Deaks2]

Loves2Rev:

I'm not puttin' down spoolin, but I talked about this a while ago;

I wanted to do the following:
-GT-S head
-Bored-out 1ZZ block
-4th Gen 3S-GE Dual VVT-i system


So we have discussed it, and the "3ZZ" project (2ZZ with 1ZZ crank) is much more practical and less costly, even if an engine swap were involved.

[icyjaws]

got to bring this back up.
john and scott what your saying the diff between the 2 cranks is that the flywheel side is larger on 2zz? I was doing some reading last night seems that also the pin journels are diff material and size. Not that big a deal cause i'd need custom rods anyway. But also the journel overlap is diff. WTH is that? Also are the flywheels the same? Cause if the diameter of the crank at that end is diff its possible the bolt holes for a 2zz flywheel might not line up with a 1zz crank.
thanks guys

[Toy4War]

Any updates?

[143hawaii]

Originally posted by simphmerj
i am curious as to what the point of this is....i'm assuming this is intended for the GT guys who regret not buying a GT-S. if i'm wrong, please let me know.

I don't regret it all, although I had no choice since I have a Spyder. I'm sure my turbo makes things a little better for me ;)

The cylinder wall lining on the 1zz block is far better suited for FI than the 2zzs.

[t2000gts]

i see dead threads.

[WillyK]

Originally posted by Toy4War
Any updates?

No

[F35-JSF]

2 years and 7 months. :thumbdown:

[larryd]

I was like WHOA.. whatever happened to John aka Spoolin.

[autxr]

Originally posted by Toy4War
Any updates?

I'm not dead yet.

[The Game]

Originally posted by autxr
I'm not dead yet.

[Da Kine Guy]

I'm guessing is fell through. Big surprise there.

[BadTOYO]

http://www.hondalife.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=7

"Please be careful about making statements about the 1.8L LS VTEC peak torque compared to the 1.8L VTEC peak torque. You hear this statement that the 1.8L LS VTEC makes more torque (assuming the same cams , redline, header/ cat/exhaust, and static compression ratio in both engines). In most cases, unlike this myth of more torque in an LSVTEC, the B18C actually makes as much or more peak torque..BUT AT A HIGHER RPM: it's rod ratio is higher or longer than the LS VTEC's. The key here is: the VTEC engine with a better rod ratio can happily rev all day at a higher rpm than the LS VTEC over the years. You can push a stock B18C bottom end to 9000 rpm as long as the valvesprings are upgraded. You can't go to 9000 rpm on a stock LS block's rod ratio.
"

R