Another reason to get a turbo instead of a S/C!

[Lilsupra]

If you happen to get new internals and boost high...a turbo would offer much ease into increasing HP just by adjusting the boost controller as oppossed to a pulley change...think about how much a pain a pulley change is...i like the idea of having adjustable HP...thats why i think a turbo is much better...any thoughts

[larryd]

well its definitely true that increasing boost o a turbo is eaier but a s/c has its benefits as well like instant power..

[nyoneway]

1. SC generally has more low end torque/power

2. Flatter power band

3. Like Larry said, Instant power that more suited to road racing and daily driving.

4. They are usually more reliable because they put less stress on the engine.

5. Not being able to change boost instantly prevents you from making a mistake and blowing your engine. (Dummy proof).

6. Generally requires less maintanance than a turbo.

7. Not as complicated as turbo.

[CelicaGTSfan400]

Which is more controllable boost though, a turbo or s/c? Because I'd personally rather sacrifice some insane power in order to keep traction and not send my car into any fixed obstructions. LOL

[Keyshawn]

In drag racing, turbo lag on a FWD car might help keep traction and contribute to quicker times. In road racing, daily driving, or pretty much any kind of driving that involves turning, a supercharged car would be able to power out of turns even at pretty low rpms, making it superior in that type of driving.

[voidhawk]

Is there such a thing as an electronic boost controller for a supercharger?

[snake gts]

Thats a big NO NO:nono:

[I3itchBoyz]

Originally posted by snake gts
Thats a big NO NO:nono:

Why is the electronic boost controller a big no no

[GTS LAID]

you want the perfect 1.8L power car.... S/C + LSD = :thumbup:

[snake gts]

True

[Kurt]

Originally posted by nyoneway
1. SC generally has more low end torque/power

2. Flatter power band

3. Like Larry said, Instant power that more suited to road racing and daily driving.

4. They are usually more reliable because they put less stress on the engine.

5. Not being able to change boost instantly prevents you from making a mistake and blowing your engine. (Dummy proof).

6. Generally requires less maintanance than a turbo.

7. Not as complicated as turbo.

1- yes, depending on size of turbo used.

2- not true, a well tuned ,properly set up turbo will have as flat a curve as a roots blower.

3- completely wrong. no SC cars are out winning races on any course. with a turbo you have the option of sacrificing some low end for immense upper end, which is where you spend the majority of your time when racing. daily driving is a matter of opinion.

4- completely and absurdly false. boost is boost. with a turbo you cant chill the air temp down with an IC. when it passes out of the IC its going to be the temp of the diffuser, and heat soak will happen on any A-A diffuser unit, SC or turbo. the difference will be only minutes of running in boost. a turbo does not stress a cars drive system either. look at how much trouble celicas had with the belt systems already? why make it worse?

5- dummy's shouldnt have a boosted car to begin with. IMO, if you cant install it, you shouldnt be driving it.

6- again completely false. everyone changes their oil at 3k miles anyway, what is easier? id rather just unbolt a turbine from a manifold, pull the compressor out rather easily and replace just that unit than pull a blower, which often DOUBLES as a manifold and then break that down and rebuild it in the event of a failure....wouldnt you?

7- how so? i dont understand that at all.

8- one of my own....if you decide that you want more power later, with a turbo you are out the cost of the turbo....with a blower yoiu need a whole new kit.

I always have to laugh when i hear people with multiple cam profiles talk about hating lag. can anyone else see the irony? right now you all have to hit 6000rpm before you have ANY power, wtf is waiting for 2-3k? hell, on a celica with a turbo like a t3 or a hybrid boost should start to onset by 2k. besides boost is built on engine load, not RPM anyway....so in a higher gear dropping the hammer at 2k will result in almost immediate building of boost.

im not hating on anyone, and im sorry i sound like im being a ****..... im just very tired of the large degree of misinformation about turbo chargers. yes, lag and all that crap is typical of a HUGE turbo. but if you are considering a supercharger you really arent looking at big high end gains. Its almost like the majority of people talking about this stuff havnt even ever driven a turbo car.

now this i will concede: if you just want to bolt up some power, not spend any time tuning or ****ing with it just so you can have some extra grunt then maybe a SC will do just fine. but if you want to be the big **** on the block, get a turbo.

there is a reason why you dont see all the fast imports running S/C's.

[Lilsupra]

There are no electronic boost controllers for S/C because a S/C is a preset boost according to the pulley diameter...a turbo is designed on pressure differences and valves...u can boost as high as u want...but ull see ur engine explode...i wonder how much pressure a turbo can output without being connected to the engine..anyone?

[nyoneway]

Originally posted by Kurt


1- yes, depending on size of turbo used.

2- not true, a well tuned ,properly set up turbo will have as flat a curve as a roots blower.

3- completely wrong. no SC cars are out winning races on any course. with a turbo you have the option of sacrificing some low end for immense upper end, which is where you spend the majority of your time when racing. daily driving is a matter of opinion.

4- completely and absurdly false. boost is boost. with a turbo you cant chill the air temp down with an IC. when it passes out of the IC its going to be the temp of the diffuser, and heat soak will happen on any A-A diffuser unit, SC or turbo. the difference will be only minutes of running in boost. a turbo does not stress a cars drive system either. look at how much trouble celicas had with the belt systems already? why make it worse?

5- dummy's shouldnt have a boosted car to begin with. IMO, if you cant install it, you shouldnt be driving it.

6- again completely false. everyone changes their oil at 3k miles anyway, what is easier? id rather just unbolt a turbine from a manifold, pull the compressor out rather easily and replace just that unit than pull a blower, which often DOUBLES as a manifold and then break that down and rebuild it in the event of a failure....wouldnt you?

7- how so? i dont understand that at all.

8- one of my own....if you decide that you want more power later, with a turbo you are out the cost of the turbo....with a blower yoiu need a whole new kit.

I always have to laugh when i hear people with multiple cam profiles talk about hating lag. can anyone else see the irony? right now you all have to hit 6000rpm before you have ANY power, wtf is waiting for 2-3k? hell, on a celica with a turbo like a t3 or a hybrid boost should start to onset by 2k. besides boost is built on engine load, not RPM anyway....so in a higher gear dropping the hammer at 2k will result in almost immediate building of boost.

im not hating on anyone, and im sorry i sound like im being a ****..... im just very tired of the large degree of misinformation about turbo chargers. yes, lag and all that crap is typical of a HUGE turbo. but if you are considering a supercharger you really arent looking at big high end gains. Its almost like the majority of people talking about this stuff havnt even ever driven a turbo car.

now this i will concede: if you just want to bolt up some power, not spend any time tuning or ****ing with it just so you can have some extra grunt then maybe a SC will do just fine. but if you want to be the big **** on the block, get a turbo.

there is a reason why you dont see all the fast imports running S/C's.

First, I never said a SC is better than a turbo. I am just listing the general advantages.

2. Like everything I listed, I am being general.

3. Example. Realtime Racing's Vortex NSX got the last 4 pole and leading the field. If you're in a race that limits horsepower, the supercharger is the better bet. Because it has instant power, and no power spike, your car is a lot more balanced and controllable around turn. Its also easier to drive. Look at SCC's ultimate street car test, the winner was'nt the most power turbo car, it was the car with the flattest powerband.

4. Because the supercharger, boost is linear and turbo boost CAN BE on/off, a supercharge is usually more reliable in let say a delicate engine like the Celica.

I'm not gonna argue with you on which is better. I'm saying that supercharger has its advantages. You're pulling out exceptions out of your as* so you can try to prove me wrong.

Like... yea the you can tune the turbo to have low end torque and flatter torque band and higher end power and its more reliable, simplier, etc. Then why don't SC being obsolete?

[tuberider]

ahhhhh, the age old debate continues. When I die and ask god the meaning of life, I'll throw in the question about being sucked or blown too. Then I'll come back in the after-life to post his response, and we can all live in peace.

[_Z_]

hey man

FAST and FURIOUS

TURBO w/ NOS:D

[peternguyen02]

Well if SC is better suited for road racing how come rally cars and F1 run Turboes?

[peternguyen02]

and by road I don't mean street.

[vatik]

Lilsupra :

<b>i wonder how much pressure a turbo can output without being connected to the engine..anyone?</b>

I don't think that there would be any pressure. There is nothing to put pressure against... no chamber to pump air into... no pressure...

[eurodrive]

>F1 run Turboes

Sorry, that's not true. In the Formula 1 turbocharging is forbidden since the mid or late 70ies I think.
BMW for example use a V10 2,998cc engine, that revved over 19.000 rpm this weekend.
Link: http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/session:7yyy06dwq1/ms/en/3000_rennserien/3100_formel1/3120_team/3123_motor/index.html

[David Draper]

Ummm, with regard that whole 'boost is boost' comment, there are a few reasons why that's wrong.

Superchargers will push air via one of two methods, either by being attached like an accessory (such as an alternator), or by replacing the intake manifold/plenum with a Roots-type blower.

In the first scenario, air is pulled through a filter into the S/C, compressed, and pushed out to either the throttle body or an intercooler and then the throttle body. The compression causes heat, hence the benefit found with the intercooled setup.

In the second scenario, air is pulled through a filter and stuffed into the engine.

In either case, the air being put into the engine is a couple hundred degrees F or less.

With a turbo, the air is pulled through a filter, and compressed in a chamber that routinely runs 1300-1600F!! The intercooler will help, but the intake charge is substantially hotter in a T/C setup than an S/C setup.

Additionally, regarding the comment made about it being easier to swap out a turbo rather than a supercharger....How many of you guys have seen your intake manifold in the last week? Right in front, easy to get to. The exhaust manifold is wedged in between the firewall and the engine itself, and will either require hours to access from the top, or the dropping of the crossmember to access from the bottom.

That was a huge consideration in the turbo kit. The manifold/turbo/downpipe will be nuke-proof particularly because it's such a hassle to get back there--I only want people to have to do it once.

[peternguyen02]

19k RPM cool

[Lilsupra]

What I meant was how much pressure can a turbo output before blowing the turbines...of course the turbo can still build pressure against atmospheric pressure but not as much as it would connected to the engine.

[voidhawk]

Originally posted by Lilsupra
There are no electronic boost controllers for S/C because a S/C is a preset boost according to the pulley diameter...a turbo is designed on pressure differences and valves...u can boost as high as u want...but ull see ur engine explode...i wonder how much pressure a turbo can output without being connected to the engine..anyone?

That's the reason why I (personally) prefer a turbo over a SC: run low boost for daily driving and have high boost at the touch of a button when you really want it. You can't do that with a SC if there's no electronic boost control capability.

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Lilsupra
What I meant was how much pressure can a turbo output before blowing the turbines...of course the turbo can still build pressure against atmospheric pressure but not as much as it would connected to the engine.

To answer your question (and guys, this is a sincere question, so be good), the turbines themselves won't blow, per se. If anything, seals would let go, or the bearings (sleeve bearings on our turbo) could spin and damage the shaft or the housing, and that would tend to be the only way the turbo itself could be damaged.

However, you have to really be familiar with the concepts to know why that won't happen.....

First, the way a turbo works. You know those little pinwheels you had as a kid? That's about the closest thing you'll see to a turbo's blades.

Think of the turbo as having two of those 'pinwheels', about 6 inches apart, and with a rod connecting the two--kind of like the wheels on an old Hot Wheels car, for example.

You know how you can feel the exhaust coming out of your tailpipe? Have someone rev the engine. Now consider the fact it's about 10 feet from the engine. If you were only 6 inches from the engine, your hand would be charcoal now ;)

That's how the turbo works. As your engine revs, it pushes more and more air out the exhaust. The air usually just goes out the exhaust. With the turbo installed, the air will go through the turbo, then out the exhaust.

As the air goes through the turbo, it turns one of the pinwheels. As that pinwheel turns, it turns the other one. The other pinwheel pulls air from the air filter and stuffs it into the intercooler, and then into the engine.

So, since the turbo is being pushed by air, you have the same scenario as an engine--overrevving can cause problems.

However, in order to overrev, you've got to exceed the abilities of the turbo. In the case of the Celica, this is almost impossible. The Celica would blow up long before the turbo ever would. We're using one of the smallest turbos on earth, and it's still totally capable of keeping up with the engine.

So, to answer your questions....

A) The turbo will produce no boost whatsoever without being connected to the engine.

B) You'd have to be pushing up to or over 20 psi, even on a small turbo to cause problems. Larger turbochargers can produce more, but they are totally inappropriate for this small an engine.

Hope this helps.

[onigami]

Originally posted by eurodrive
>F1 run Turboes

Sorry, that's not true. In the Formula 1 turbocharging is forbidden since the mid or late 70ies I think.
BMW for example use a V10 2,998cc engine, that revved over 19.000 rpm this weekend.
Link: http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/session:7yyy06dwq1/ms/en/3000_rennserien/3100_formel1/3120_team/3123_motor/index.html

http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/F1/F1-Reglements-techniques-2002-a.pdf

supercharging is illegal, as well. (5.1.3)

http://www.cart.com/About/RuleBook2002.pdf

CART uses turbos (9.5.3).

top fuel dragsters run on nitro, use a bb hemi, and are supercharged. they run 4 second quarter miles. they also have only one gear.

[nyoneway]

Another reason why SC can be better than turbo.

Let say you have a stock 2ZZ engine, we're pretty much limited to 6-7 PSI without internal work or fuel system upgrades.

Now look at the torque and HP curve for the recently dynoed UNTUNED Blitz Supercharger on 19" rims.

http://www.caristic.com/john/blitzdyno2.gif

You see how the max power and min. power gain throught the powerband is almost the same? The gain from 2500rpm thru to 8250rpm is very consistent with no spike or lag or anything. Let see you tuned a turbo to do that, full boost at 2000RPM thru 8250 with no spikes.

[peternguyen02]

the Torque isn't too awe-inspiring

[Lilsupra]

Now look at XS engineering's turbo torque curve...
http://newcelica.org/other/dyno/xs/torque2.jpg
...I have a few questions...Is torque proportional to HP...at least should it be?? Will getting a lighter flywheel increase torque? Lasty, is torque limited by gearing?

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Lilsupra
Now look at XS engineering's turbo torque curve...


Keep in mind, that dyno was done with NO catalytic converter. Runs done on the XS Celica with the cat ON yielded about 20 hp LESS than without, according to that old Turbo Mag issue (this would affect that torque curve significantly). Also, that run was done at a 7.5 psi setting (the Matrix with the same turbo kit but with BETTER engine management lasted about six months at 7 psi before breaking a piston).

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Lilsupra
...I have a few questions...Is torque proportional to HP...at least should it be?? Will getting a lighter flywheel increase torque? Lasty, is torque limited by gearing?

Torque=(Horsepower x 5252)/RPM.
According to Dave Coleman at SCC, " When torque is transmitted through gears, the torque is multiplied by the gear ratio. Imagine (a) 50 lb-ft engine went through a 3:1 first gear and a 4:1 final drive. The torque at the wheels would be 50 x 3 x 4, or 600 lb-ft. Horsepower, interestingly, doesn't change with gear ratios. Horsepower is a function of torque and rpm, and at the same time toque went up 1200%, rpm dropped the same amount. Run through the formula at either end of the gearbox and you end up with the same power."

[NSX_GTR_LM]

as for flat torque curves, check out the audi TT

[nyoneway]

Well nothing beats a Twin Turbo V6 for torque curve.

Guys, keep in mind that we are not arguing on which is better, SC vs Turbo.

We are just pointing out that a Supercharger may be better for our application, that is a low boost daily driver. About 6 psi for reliability and tuning without touching the internals and fuel system. If you pull up the XS engineering dyno, it ran on 7.5 PSI, unreliably, and the torque curve is not flat at all. There's a reason why XS Engineering made the turbo kit 2 years ago and have not released it yet.

The Blitz dyno also ran on 19" rims, lower grade gas not to mention that JDM ecu tuned for 100 octane. It's only a preliminary dyno from Turbo magazine. We would have to wait for next issue for more info.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Lilsupra
Now look at XS engineering's turbo torque curve...


Another thing to keep in mind is that they later turned down the boost on the XS/ALT Celica that got those hp/torque numbers. According to Jesse at ALT, they turned it down to 6 psi to avoid damaging the engine and ended up pushing about 210 hp to the wheels (ironically, the hp numbers became more similar to Blitz's SC latest numbers, 204.8 hp).

Both XS and Blitz would most likely be able to produce more power with their forced induction systems if they weren't limited by our compression ratio and concerns about blowing the engine.

[Lilsupra]

if it must come to this...Id rather get a turbo to get people to turn their heads....psshhhhhh smoke u.....hrrrrrpshhhhhhhhhooooo smoke u again...a turbo is just a more fun machine...

[2000 XYR]

Did someone say torque curve? ;) How about this: (Can't wait to get a real dyno tho)

http://2000xyr.freeyellow.com/L/torque%20curve.jpg

[blackandblue]

I haven't seen anyone say anything about what a bitch it is when a turbo kicks in when cornering on a front wheel drive car like a Celica. Not to mention, I want the power off the line ...I'm not waiting for the turbo to spool up. Install the SC and modify your engine to handle the HP. If you are gonna spend that kind of money then do it right.

[peternguyen02]

it's easy to correct understeer, just use the ebrake, besides I don't think it matters if it is FWD or RWD you're still going to lose grip. In addition why would you have your engine at low RPM going into a corner then floor it when you're turning

[NSX_GTR_LM]

Originally posted by peternguyen02
it's easy to correct understeer, just use the ebrake, besides I don't think it matters if it is FWD or RWD you're still going to lose grip. In addition why would you have your engine at low RPM going into a corner then floor it when you're turning

:werd:

These people act like a small trubo is going to give you a torque jump of like 100 ft lbs within a 100 rpm range, and act as though that rpm range is right in the powerband. The GTS would probably have more trouble with that when hitting lift than a car with a small turbo. turbo "kicking in" will be around 2-3K on our car, so if you are racing in that area, thats your fault.