Is Toyota getting lazy?

[Fiero]

This isn't a flame on the Celica or Toyota so please put down your flame throwers before you post a reply!

Anyway... Does it seem to you that Toyota is getting a bit lazy these days. The Celica is an awesome machine and the GT-S was in the top ranks of its class back when it launched. But now we have similar cars that, for the most part, should out perform the Celica.

I know there is some cross class comparison here but bear with me since many of you consider all of these cars viable options.

When the Celica launched there was the Teg, older Eclipse's, and Preludes. Celica can hang with all of them.

But with the intro of the RSX-S, WRX, SE-R and the up and coming introductions of 350Z, RX8, EVO, WRX-STI, RSX-R and new Tiberon, Toyota should be worried. And there not. So far, the only thing I have heard for the 2003 update of the Celica is a slight change to the front/rear end. Nothing else. Does anyone else feel that Toyota is once again ignoring the performance segment...not to mention failing to support the current aftermarket for there only sports coupe (in USA anyway).

People complained to Toyota about the lack of aftermarket support. So they create the "action package" and an exhaust system. Big Whoop. You guys complained at the short powerband range of VVTL-i and what do they do? Lower the rev limiter. What's next? Instead of better gearing they only ship the car in 4 speed Auto form?

Question: If Toyota released an AWD Turbo version (is that even technically possible with the current frame?) of the Celica in 2003 how many of you would trade up? What if they introduced a version with a 2.0+L VVTL-i engine and LSD?

Yes I know that the Corolla and Camry make more money for the company and sell ten times better then the Celica ever will. But Toyota came out with it's "GenX/Y program" and the slogan "is this Toyota". They said they were going to go into this full bore. After 2 years and 3 cars (I don't count Echo), a better question would "What is Toyota?"

How much effort are they really going to put forth? Are they going to really push for the GenX/Y market, or are they just going to fall back on there Family image.

What do you guys think?

[HilfigerCelica]

Well the Celica is suppose to get completely redesign in 2004. Toyota has it's work cut out if it's going to design a car that can keep up with a WRX and still be $25K. The new Corolla is coming out in the spring and from what I heard, it's going to have a 1.8L engine. I don't see how Toyota is going to get a 2.0L from unless they stroke it out. They could get a 2.0L from the RAV4.
If Toyota did get a 2.0L w/ VVT-i and LSD that would be awesome.

[LaW]

bring back the alltrac :)

or an awd, 2.0L, turbo'd engine :)

[VZV21]

So, they need to import the Caldina GT-T?

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Caldina/exterior/images/ex01_prv.jpg

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Caldina/mechanism/images/en_00.jpg

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Caldina/mechanism/images/en_01.jpg

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Caldina/interior/images/int01_prv.jpg

[AkUmA]

i kinda like that caldina, if it was a 2dr hatchback or 2dr sedan. 5speed or 6speed, turbo. :D

[VZV21]

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Caldina/grade_val/images/gr_price.gif
GT-T 5-speed
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Caldina/grade_val/images/gr_va03.jpg

[chameleon]

I don't think that toyota is getting lazy at all IMHO. I also don't think that the Celica will ever get much faster than it currently is. The reason I say that is because the Celica is Toyotas car to compete with Integra's, Eclipses, ect, just as you said. If they want to compete with higher performance cars they will need to come out with different modle cars to compete with them. If they modified the Celica to fill that need, Toyota will no longer have a car modle to compete with the lower performance modles. Toyota is already doing this with there current project that is beleived to be the new supra.

On another note, I think that AWD would really hurt the Celica. Since AWD robs alot of power it, you would definately need to turbocharge the engine as well just to make the Celica as fast as it already is in its FWD NA layout. The result would be a more much more expensive car that even fewer people would be able to afford to purchase, which would mean that Toyota would lose even more sales. The vast majority of Celicas are GT's and not GTS's because of the price tag of a GTS. I'll bet that a turbo AWD GTS would begine to get close to the $30,000 mark. What I really wish for is RWD. I think that the next celica should be RWD.:)

[MarkyMark]

Originally posted by Fiero
Question: If Toyota released an AWD Turbo version (is that even technically possible with the current frame?) of the Celica in 2003 how many of you would trade up? What if they introduced a version with a 2.0+L VVTL-i engine and LSD?

that's an easy question..I think just about everyone here would (I would...if they kept the same design).

Toyota cut too many f*ckin corners...I'm hearing about people putting 3sgte engines in...I guess it would be fun to expand this car in that way.

[LaW]

I'd trade up for sure :)

[simphmerj]

Originally posted by Fiero
When the Celica launched there was the Teg, older Eclipse's, and Preludes. Celica can hang with all of them.

But with the intro of the RSX-S, WRX, SE-R and the up and coming introductions of 350Z, RX8, EVO, WRX-STI, RSX-R and new Tiberon, Toyota should be worried.

the WRX is faster cuz instead of interior quality, the money went to AWD. the type s, SE-R, and tiburon will probably all turn out to be about the same speed or slower than the 6M GT-S, although the SE-R has a price advantage. we don't know anything spec wise about the new Z, RX8, EVO, new R (if its even coming) or STI. they'll all be faster, and more expensive. i think the GT-S is overpriced, but it's about right inline performance wise.

allan

[Celica RZ]

I think they just need to stick the stupid LSD in there. They've got the part already. no xtra work involved there. and if they're feeling really productive they can revise the gears a bit. that's all we need to be REALLY competitive. not much work there, so yes Toyota is being lazy.

[celica gte racing]

argh... what do you mean by out perform? power is not only thing to what makes a sport car good...

[BlackGT]

Originally posted by celica gte racing
argh... what do you mean by out perform? power is not only thing to what makes a sport car good...


god its about time someone said that. For once GTE I agree with you. Everyone on here is comparing the Celica to AWD turbo cars that are way over the price of the Celca, atleast most are. The Celica WILL not compete with the EVO, RX8 or the new Z, you have to be kidding me. The Celica competes with a GTI, RSX-S and thats about it...oh and the new TibU ron. Stop this talk about AWD monsters that can run 12s with little work. You guys have a 1.8L FWD car that is N/A. Im not knocking the Celica, when I had mine I loved it...but you need to realize that its not the almighty car. I drive a Jetta now, and yes it puts down some good numbers for what it is.....but I have realized that it is just a car. I love modding it to all hell, but its just a car, you have your car for your reasons...dont worry about comparing it. Drive the Celica, go to lift, be happy.


Once again GTE, thanks for saying that.
-Tim

[Celica RZ]

Originally posted by celica gte racing
argh... what do you mean by out perform? power is not only thing to what makes a sport car good...

that's why I said it only needs an LSD. the celica has always been underpowered for it's class, but it's mainstay has been exceptional handling. But all these new cars coming out are either featuring RWD, AWD and/or LSD. solution add the LSD that is already available. this would make the GTS soooooo much more competitive in autocross.

[Fiero]

I only compared it to those other "AWD Supercars" and higher end stuff since many of the guys here have said they would consider trading in for them.

It's not like I am trying to compare it to a Vette or Viper...

Yes power is not the only thing that makes up a good performance car. However, as I say that there are about a thousand posts on how to get more power from the car on this sight alone. Look at how many people have spent upwards of a $800 to $1000 for just 10 to 15 more HP. Look at the response numbers for David Drapers turbo topics.

AWD would hurt the performance without a turbo so let me clear this up....

Would you upgrade if:

1. A new 2.0L+ VVTL-I engine with LSD FWD was introduced

OR

2. A new AWD Turbo model was introduced.

[chameleon]

That's kind of an interesting question Fiero. My response is that I would not trade up to either of those options. It would cost me several thousands of dollars to trade my current car in and put a down payment on a new one and I don't think that it would be worth the expense to me for an extra .2 liters of displacement and an LSD that can be added(that I already added, in fact).

The main problem I see with option number 2, the Turbo AWD, is the price tag. I think that the price would probably be pushing the $30,000 mark, and there are other cars I would rather have for that much money.

Like I said before, I would consider trading up if the Celica came out identical to it's current form with the exception of it being RWD instead of FWD. I don't think that the consumer would encounter a noticeable increase in price for that change and if the Celica were RWD, but it would make a huge difference in its performance characteristics.

[VZV21]

Converting the Celica back to RWD would require a new platform. Unfortunately the platforms using the JZ motors are too expensive, and too large in size.

The other alternative is make usage of the Altezza platform. So should Toyota use the 2JZ, 2.5L 1JZ, or 2.0L 3S-GE. This will also push the cost up closer to $30,000.

We can't use the Camry platform, the coupe role is already taken by the Solara. Or shall we continue to share components between the Camry and Celica? Then we have Celica owners complaining about using Camry engines (which like the MR2, has happened before).

So what other platform to use? Corolla? Vitz/Echo?

So the price increase will be noticeable in my opinion.

[Fiero]

True... The price increase would be noticeable to go to a Turbo an AWD. Although it can't be much higher then what the dealership qouted me for an 02 GTS ($30,000+)...

I am going to throw in one other idea into the mix.

Trying to keep this as realistic option as possible....

Toyota ups the ante with a limited run special edition Celica with VVTL-I engine with 230HP/165 torque, Helical LSD, higher performance suspension, better gearing...

Basically the equivilent of what Honda did with the Teg Type-R (except with Cruise control damnit!)

Would that peak anyone's intrest?

[VZV21]

$30,000? Was that with tax and tags?

Hmmm,

A 2002 GT-S 6-speed with Popular Combo E & Preferred Equipment Package E goes for $26,800.

How does the dealership get $30,000 at? Some insane dealer markup?

[M SPEC]

Fiero, that was my thoughts exactly about the limited run on the 230Hp engine package with LSD and a couple of extra mods to make it stand out.

That would peak my ineterst but I've spent so much money on the Celica already, I'd lose too much money if I sold it now.

I think that is the main problem, if Toyota did come out with somthing like that then I don't think that many current Celica owners would trade up to it. The majority of owners drive GT's anyways.

1. lose too much money
2. Probably cost something like $30,000 (expensive)
3. Competition from other manufacturers makes would be better bang for buck, good example would be the EVO being released in the US for the same money range Toyota would have to retail the limited run Celica for.

Jason

[Fiero]

VZV21: That was BEFORE TAG AND TAX! Deales refuse to come off the Suggested Retail price since "it's a Toyota" and Marone has a monopoly on South FL for the most part. They also told me this little gem:

"You buy a 6 speed, you drive at your own risk. You will blow your engine. And if you change anything on the car (mod it), you loose all your warrantys"...that was the sales manager not just a lowly sales guy.

I don't think Toyota would loose too much money if they did it right. If they bring say 3000 a year over for the entire USA, and heavily promote it, they could easily sell them even with the mark up.

[Kit99bar]

this doesn't stop Honda and their Integra TypeR, Civic TypeR and RSX TypeR

Originally posted by M SPEC
Fiero, that was my thoughts exactly about the limited run on the 230Hp engine package with LSD and a couple of extra mods to make it stand out.

That would peak my ineterst but I've spent so much money on the Celica already, I'd lose too much money if I sold it now.

I think that is the main problem, if Toyota did come out with somthing like that then I don't think that many current Celica owners would trade up to it. The majority of owners drive GT's anyways.

1. lose too much money
2. Probably cost something like $30,000 (expensive)
3. Competition from other manufacturers makes would be better bang for buck, good example would be the EVO being released in the US for the same money range Toyota would have to retail the limited run Celica for.

Jason

[VZV21]

Originally posted by Fiero
VZV21: That was BEFORE TAG AND TAX! Deales refuse to come off the Suggested Retail price since "it's a Toyota" and Marone has a monopoly on South FL for the most part. They also told me this little gem:

"You buy a 6 speed, you drive at your own risk. You will blow your engine. And if you change anything on the car (mod it), you loose all your warrantys"...that was the sales manager not just a lowly sales guy.

I don't think Toyota would loose too much money if they did it right. If they bring say 3000 a year over for the entire USA, and heavily promote it, they could easily sell them even with the mark up.

Is $30,000 really the MSRP? I know you've checked the Toyota site (Build your own Toyota), and it can't be $30,000 MSRP. I gotta come down to South FL some time.

[M SPEC]

Kit99bar, you right about the ITR etc but my point was I don't think the majority of current Celica owners would upgrade.

Toyota would have to obviously target a niche market to sell limited run of special higher performance Celica's. I just can't see Toyota being highly motivated enough to takle on such a task. If the Japanese economy is still a bit shaky next year, somehting might happen. Good example, subaru release a limited run of 400 previous shape 2 door STI WRX's rated at 280Hp 2 years ago in Australia. Reason was to generate extra cash due to economic crisis.

The HondaRSX type R is supposed to come out in the States in 2003? That would mean if toyota wanted to capture a large market share of this niche market, it would have to release it to the American public early or mid next year to beat the RSX Type R release. If this is the case time is running out. We would of heard rummours or media release's by now if that was their intentions.

Jason

Jason

[Fiero]

VZV21: they actually use the build your own Toyota site and then add more mark up.


Mspec: Actually there have been some rumors floating around. I don't know if the posts transfered over from the old server, but someone in Austalia reported that a reputable car mag there had an article about Yamaha and Toyota developing a new 2.2L VVTL-I engine with 230HP+ and unknown torque (i suspect above 160LB). The guy also had some white paper/ and patent info about it too. Supposedly it had a slightly lower compression and larger powerband. No confirmation on that though.

Question is: We know Toyota is developing it, but for what purpose? Next Gen Celica? Model update in 2003/04? Something else entirely?


Something even scarier is that I have actually grown to LIKE the look of the new WRX :eek: