hey guys whats the big deal with VVTLi

[RubenGTS]

alright guys why do we make such a big deal about lift? it does sound cool and loud and all but i mean i drove my buddy's b16 crx with header and intake and when vtec kicks in it sounds and pulls the freakin same as my celica in lift? what got me was if I had my blindfolds on i would not distinguish the difference in sound or pull sooo whats the big dillio? honduh owners had this since early 90s.... makes me kinda pist that it seems toyota is a bit behind in technology.

[TeeAREdee]

nm.

[spwolf]

so? How about Toyota winning best engine award for 2002?
(for its displacement)... I guess it aint that old huh?

[97gpGT]

VVTLi=iVTEC in a way, both basically do the same thing the same way to create more power in engines. I think that VVTLi makes more torque down low (which still isn't much on a small I4) than the old VTEC systems did, but that's about the only difference.

[Baldhead_J]

Originally posted by RubenGTS
alright guys why do we make such a big deal about lift? it does sound cool and loud and all but i mean i drove my buddy's b16 crx with header and intake and when vtec kicks in it sounds and pulls the freakin same as my celica in lift? what got me was if I had my blindfolds on i would not distinguish the difference in sound or pull sooo whats the big dillio? honduh owners had this since early 90s.... makes me kinda pist that it seems toyota is a bit behind in technology. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid34/p047c6eae13d34c83af817d558d46e6c0/fd349188.jpg

[EzRidA]

I-Vtec=VVTL-I, VVTL-I came out first. The difference is vtec only adjusts timing on the exhaust profile. Where as VVTL-I adjusts timing on the exhaust and intake side, as well as changing it on the fly. Thus the I for intelligence.

[NeSyO03]

Originally posted by Baldhead_J
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid34/p047c6eae13d34c83af817d558d46e6c0/fd349188.jpg

:rofl:

[BRAK]

VVTL-I is FAAARRRR more advanced than VTEC, For 1 its all mechanical , #2 the VTEC part is our VVT-I at 3500 RPM, WHAT THEY DONT HAVE is the "Lift " technology. Which i mast say by reserch by both SCC mag, and Turbo mag agree that it has far more complexity than Vtec. We are activated by oil pressure(pretty shure) Our cams are VERY differant ect ect.
Dont let the "Vtec is the best thing since sliced bread" crowd cloud you over on the truth.

[yota_racer]

Stock vs. Stock, the VVTL-I will pull a lot harder. ;)

Of course Vtec is gonna kick in hard on a CRX with a B16 and mods. DUH!! :gap:

[SlowPoke]

i dont know about you, but I can definately tell the difference between vtec sound and lift sound

[BRAK]

ya lift definatly sounds like an INDY car wine ...... i love it!

[TRD Liquid Silver]

well the B16 sounds kind of like a 2zz with some serious bolt ons, but there's defintely a difference. one thing about a stock vtec, it sounds higher pitched than a stock 2zz which has deeper tone.

one thing that people have to know is, variable valve timing was invented by toyota back in the 70's. honda borrowed the formula and put it into production cars. that's why people associate honda with variable valved timed engines.

[Bi-Mon-Sci-Fi-Con]

Originally posted by BRAK
VVTL-I is FAAARRRR more advanced than VTEC, For 1 its all mechanical , #2 the VTEC part is our VVT-i at 3500 RPM, WHAT THEY DONT HAVE is the "Lift " technology. Which i mast say by reserch by both SCC mag, and Turbo mag agree that it has far more complexity than Vtec. We are activated by oil pressure(pretty shure) Our cams are VERY differant ect ect.
Dont let the "Vtec is the best thing since sliced bread" crowd cloud you over on the truth.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but VVT-i is is the "i" in i-VTEC, and the L in VVTL-i is VTEC (Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electonic Control), and VVT-i doesn't come in at 3500rpm, it's continuous throughout the RPM range.

[Karim]

Originally posted by Baldhead_J
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid34/p047c6eae13d34c83af817d558d46e6c0/fd349188.jpg

omg i just about died alughing when i saw that!!!!

Karim

[Karim]

this same fool that made this thread also made this one http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46314

Karim

[2002GT_Celica]

I drove a GT-S once...by far the most fun I have had driving thus far...all because of Lift...

[ArchangelX]

Originally posted by Baldhead_J
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid34/p047c6eae13d34c83af817d558d46e6c0/fd349188.jpg

OMFG..I almost shiat my pants when I saw that...jeezus... :chuckles:

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Bi-Mon-Sci-Fi-Con


Correct me if I'm wrong, but VVT-i is is the "i" in i-VTEC, and the L in VVTL-i is VTEC (Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electonic Control), and VVT-i doesn't come in at 3500rpm, it's continuous throughout the RPM range.

You are correct. There is some difference to the mechanism but the actions and results are basically the same.

The statement that VTEC is the same as VVTLi is inncorrect. iVTEC, however, is basically the same.

[RubenGTS]

Originally posted by Karim
this same fool that made this thread also made this one http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46314

Karim

Ahhh Karim, that was supposed to be a joke man... I was drunk when I posted that. haha me and my buddies are still laughin.....

Its just some of the kills sometimes sounds too outrageous so we decided to make our own and look just as stupid.

but anyways back to the original topic, you guys make some interesting points but I thought BMW invented Variable Valve Timing and not Toyota.

[TaeMachine]

when?

[Raymund]

http://www.s2ki.com/ezimagecatalog/catalogue/variations/25805-9999x9999.jpg

LOL :D

[Karim]

Originally posted by RubenGTS


Ahhh Karim, that was supposed to be a joke man... I was drunk when I posted that. haha me and my buddies are still laughin.....

Its just some of the kills sometimes sounds too outrageous so we decided to make our own and look just as stupid.

but anyways back to the original topic, you guys make some interesting points but I thought BMW invented Variable Valve Timing and not Toyota.

doh sorry, me was tired and took the post seriously. Midterm time what do you expect? I'm going nuts here! MOOOOORRREEE COOOOOFFFFFFEEEEEE!!!!!!

Karim

[LEDmod]

Originally posted by yota_racer
Stock vs. Stock, the VVTL-I will pull a lot harder. ;)

Of course Vtec is gonna kick in hard on a CRX with a B16 and mods. DUH!! :gap:

If you can put GTS motor on CRX... it's gona pull harder... LOL

[CIN]

IIRC Variable valve timing was first introduced a long time ago by Alfa Romeo. It changed timing at a specified RPM point and just one time. Just like the 4AGE VVT works. ;)

[Dealer Xing]

Conclusion: with all the complex technical explanations now we can say VTEC and VVTLi still feel the same, which is the exact meaning of the first post.

[ArchangelX]

No.

[Johan]

:werd:

[Griffin]

Originally posted by Dealer Xing
Conclusion: with all the complex technical explanations now we can say VTEC and VVTLi still feel the same, which is the exact meaning of the first post.

No.... iVTEC and VVTLi do. VTEC (as in normal VTEC) does not hit as hard or work the same.

[T|2D_CelicA GTS]

so....to sum it up..whats better? ivtec or vvtl-i?? i personally think ivtec is not better....not just cuz i have a gt-s but i drove my freinds type-s and it dosent seem to kick in as hard as lift...

[Griffin]

Originally posted by T|2D_CelicA GTS
so....to sum it up..whats better? ivtec or vvtl-i?? i personally think ivtec is not better....not just cuz i have a gt-s but i drove my freinds type-s and it dosent seem to kick in as hard as lift...

That probably has more to do with cam profile and weight of vehicle than anythign else. IVTEC and VVTLi perform basically the same function.

[97gpGT]

The iVTEC in the RSX doesn't seem to kick as hard because the RSX has a more even powerband than the GT-S and more torque available down low. The eveness of the powerband has a lot to do with kick, and the amount of kick you feel does not mean that one is better or worse than the other. That'd be like saying the double VANOS system in the E46 M3 is not as good as the VVTLi in a Celica because you don't feel a kick...

[x-factorWRX]

Originally posted by BRAK
VVTL-I is FAAARRRR more advanced than VTEC, For 1 its all mechanical , #2 the VTEC part is our VVT-I at 3500 RPM, WHAT THEY DONT HAVE is the "Lift " technology. Which i mast say by reserch by both SCC mag, and Turbo mag agree that it has far more complexity than Vtec. We are activated by oil pressure(pretty shure) Our cams are VERY differant ect ect.
Dont let the "Vtec is the best thing since sliced bread" crowd cloud you over on the truth.

honda has had vtec since the early 90's and it has lift. plus it doesnt have that big dip in the power band before its hits vvtl-i like in the celica... and most honda dohc v-tec engines are alot cleaner than the gts..... i prefer the honda system personaly....

[Raymund]

I would have to say i-vtec design is better than vvtl-i.

1: i-vtec uses roller pads on all cam lobes vs. vvtl-i only on the small cam lobes. this means less friction on i-vtec's part.

2: i-vtec uses two cam profile to actuate valves on low lift. With this honda is able to create better swirl effect causing better air and fuel mixture.

3: I also think i-vtec mechanism can withstand a bigger cam profile as there is no constraint on the rocker arms like vvtl-i. Put a big enough high-lift cam profile on the vvtl-i rocker mechanism and it will bottom out and overide the small cams even if lift is not actuated. This is however not the case with Honda's i-vtec since all lash pad are not one whole unit.

[Da Kine Guy]

Here's some stuff I posted a LONG time ago:

VTEC = variable lift/timing/duration system with two different profile cams for each valve which change the lift, duration, and timing. VTEC is NOT continuously variable, it is a staged system based on RPM.

VVTi = continuously adjustable intake cam shaft which allows for the timing to be adjusted according to RPM. Valve duration and lift is completely unaffected as the same cam lobes are used throughout.

VVTLi = continuously adjustable intake cam shaft, as in VVTi, but with a second cam lobe which engages at a preset RPM in the ECU. The second lobe affects lift and duration. Timing is still being adjusted by the variable camshaft.

iVTEC = Read VVTLi, but I think they might have an adjustable exhaust cam shaft as well. As we can see by the power numbers it has minimal affect on performance.

iVTEC and VVTLi adjust the cam shaft timing in EXACTLY the same manner. So far all cam shafts are adjusted the same way, whether it be VVTi, iVTEC, or BMW's Vanos, they all use a screw type mechanism to adjust the timing. I'll post a picture of the system if anyone requests. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LIFT ON VVTLi AND VTEC(or iVTEC) IS THE WAY IN WHICH THE SECOND CAM LOBE ENGAGES ITSELF.

VTEC uses hydraulic pressure and metal rods to connect up a second rocker arm being driven by the high RPM cam lobe. When locked up the whole rocker assembly is now driven by the high RPM cam lobe, thus changing the valves behavior to the high RPM cam profile.

VVTLi uses a freely moving rod in the main rocker arm to allow the high RPM cam lobe to not affect the valves. When engaged a small stopper pin is pushed underneath the freely moving rod, thus taking away the space it had to move freely in. The rod then touches the pin which allows the high RPM cam profile to affect the rocker arm and valve behavior. Think of it this way, get a pencil and hold it 1cm above a button. Now move the pencil down 1cm and then up 1cm, repeat forever. You will never push the button in. Now what if someone stuck a 1cm high block between your pencil and the button. You would now hit the block and in turn make the block push the button. Same thing with VVTLi's lift.

Hope this helps





After you read that go to this < http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/tech_index.htm > site and read the stuff about variable valve timing. You'll love yourself afterwards :D

[t2000gts]

i always thought VTEC was higher pitched, and VVTL-i had a deeper throaty tone.

the b16 screams like it's being winded out. the 2zz roars somewhat oddly, (it's really smooth and silky unlike VTEC, but it's deeper toned) like it's got a few hundred rpm left to go. it sounds like it's just getting into it at 7000rpm while VTEC sounds like it's nearing redline.

that's assuming no major exhaust modifications which would really interfere with noticing engine tone.

and VVTL-i in the 2ZZ-GE kicks in harder than any version of VTEC or i-VTEC i've seen in any honda engine...the cam profile is just that aggressive. you can put aggressive cams in a honda to get that kind of kick, but i think the sound remains the same.

3: I also think i-vtec mechanism can withstand a bigger cam profile as there is no constraint on the rocker arms like vvtl-i. Put a big enough high-lift cam profile on the vvtl-i rocker mechanism and it will bottom out and overide the small cams even if lift is not actuated. This is however not the case with Honda's i-vtec since all lash pad are not one whole unit.

yeah...but doesn't the 2ZZ have more aggressive high-lift cam profile than the K20A already? i think its only topped by the F20C in that department...not even the B18C tops it (though it comes close), sort of why you don't really see that dip before VVTL-i in most of the VTEC engine curves...it's no fault on the part of the technology, but the cam design (and it pays dividends when you do get up there)

i haven't heard/seen the engine in the new RSX Type R (new ITR)

[x-factorWRX]

it kicks in alot harder because the gts make alot less power before vvtl-i. not to mention the gts has a big dip in the power band before vvtl-i too....

[h22a@7400.Rpm]

I think alot of people are missing the point. "Hiting hard" isn't the goal of variable valve timing. I've never driven a Celica so I can't really speak for it, but I believe the reason why you may feel the kick more on the VVTL-i is because the power slightly drops off of the first cam before the second cam kicks in. Ideally you'd want uniform power delivery. If you have a "lift" controler to lower the cross over point a few RPMs you'd have improved power delivery, and a less noticable kick.

From what I understand, the VVTL-i kicks in just after 6K. Thats kinda high. I'm sure a more optimum point would be slightly lower.
But Toyota probably and to comprimise with emissions and stuff.

[Dealer Xing]

Toyota fooled a lot of people by making the "Kicking-hard" crossover . If your midrange (4-6K) power and torque dip and suddenly an aggressive cam profile jump in of course you think it's powerful. I have driven the Celica in AutoX and this "Kicking" charactestic is not good at all, it upsets the balance on a lot of corners. I'd prefer a smoother powerband but Toyota has convinced a lot of su*kers to believe the VVTL-i is the most powerful but not very useful(narrow powerband, gearings that don't keep up).

[Mistrimeat]

Originally posted by Dealer Xing
Toyota has convinced a lot of su*kers

Why didi you censor suckers? :rofl:

[SlickCar]

Guyz.. in Australia...
The Integra Type R with I-Vtec kick almost as hard as the VVTL-i.
But I still think VVTL-i kicks just a little bit harder...

Still... the Type R is still faster than the Celica....stock to stock.
want to know more ?
check out www.honda.com.au

[Dealer Xing]

SLickCar,

When you say Type R is faster you have to explain whether it is on a circuit or a dragstrip. Most people on this board think racing is straight line only.

[RubenGTS]

VVTLi seems to kick in hardest because we have no torque/power before lift. Have you seen our power band? it's the most F*cked up powerband. We got nothing down low, then a dip, then WHAM! it's all there all of a sudden so of course we would think its damn fast! Get the point?

Toyota got most of you fooled. LIFT in our Celicas is not god's gift and it certainly isn't my desired powerband. Sad to admit but driving my celica is the equivalent to driving a Toyota Echo with a 50 shot of nitrous only activated at 6K rpms and above. Of course it's gonna "kick in" HARD when Nitrous is applied.

I guess i'm just a bitter old fart because i'm pist at Toyota for fu*cking me over on my blown motor. F*ck you Toyota! I hate what you do for me.

[Dealer Xing]

I'm with you Ruben, although I never blew the motor or phucked up the tranny. This car(GTS) is poorly made. One thing though, the Celica's low end is not bad(for a NA 1.8L), only the midrange sux. When you are on the highway at 60MPH---4th, 5th, 6th gear's power are about the same, only difference is noise level.

[TRD Liquid Silver]

Click on the link it shows the different types ov variable valve timed engines that's out in the market. it also shows how they work and what's different.Different Types of VVT (http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/engine/vvt_31.htm)

really good read and explanation of how the system works.

[TRD Liquid Silver]

Originally posted by Dealer Xing
I'm with you Ruben, although I never blew the motor or phucked up the tranny. This car(GTS) is poorly made. One thing though, the Celica's low end is not bad(for a NA 1.8L), only the midrange sux. When you are on the highway at 60MPH---4th, 5th, 6th gear's power are about the same, only difference is noise level.

i do have to agree for a 1.8L it has decent torque. i think below 3k the car is a slug but after the VVT kicks in from 3k-5k you can feel some decent mid range torque. you can defintely feel the vvt changing between that area of the rpm, especially when your in 2nd gear. with these type of motors you have to shift more than usual to get the most out of them. i have to disagree with the 60mph in 4th, 5th or 6th. the car will pull harder in 4th@60mph than 5th@60mph, cause your a lot closer to the powerband.

[BoyRacer]

Oh you again.

[Dealer Xing]

Again, what you feel in between 3-5K is actually the butterfly valve opened, creating more noise, that's it. Dyno shows a big dip in power from 4-6K, you can't argue that.

[BRAK]

Nope have my Butterfly removed! ... i still hear it!
You sir are WRONG ...... nice try though!

[xav3x]

dip hence a big surge in power afterwards... but i dont mind.. sure fool my friends.. lol and i like the kick.. hmm look into some exhausts.. like N1.. it smooths out that dip.. cool guys?

i agree with all of you that said: "there is dip in powerband hence you feel a big surge after it" face it.. its true..

but i like it.. fun to drive!!! hehehe who wants some ass whoppin'???!?!?

[TRD Liquid Silver]

Originally posted by Dealer Xing
Again, what you feel in between 3-5K is actually the butterfly valve opened, creating more noise, that's it. Dyno shows a big dip in power from 4-6K, you can't argue that.

don't have a butter fly valve, i have cai.

true, there's a dip but what people have to understand is that there's not going to be a lot of torque in these motors. you can see the advantage of VVTL-i between 3-5k especially in 2nd gear. if you've ever driven a VTEC not i-VTEC you'll know what I mean. there's nothing below the 2nd cam whatsoever.

[Dealer Xing]

The sudden jump in power maybe fun but not very useful when you are taking steep corners or climbing/going down a winding mountain road.

[t2000gts]

The sudden jump in power maybe fun but not very useful when you are taking steep corners or climbing/going down a winding mountain road.

the gearing is there to keep the car over 6000rpm at any range of speed over around 30-40mph. up to the driver to use it. why enter a corner at 4000-5000rpm? downshift one more gear, so exit the corner at 6000-7000rpm, run it out, and grab the next gear quickly.

[99interlude]

Vtec is not all thats put out to be unless you have something light more worth while modding , CRX, Civic hybrid, integra's. personally accords, * preludes 97 +* and any of the heavier line of cars honda has require alot more modding than those listed above. weight plays a big role when modding a car imo.

[Dealer Xing]

Don't know what you are talking about, the gearings between 1-2-3 gears are wide apart for the GTS. Every shift you fall into the bottom of the torque curve. Unless you overrev the motor you can't land your shift on the fat part of the powerband. 3-4-5 gearings are close though.

Originally posted by t2000gts


the gearing is there to keep the car over 6000rpm at any range of speed over around 30-40mph. up to the driver to use it. why enter a corner at 4000-5000rpm? downshift one more gear, so exit the corner at 6000-7000rpm, run it out, and grab the next gear quickly.

[oo_snoopy]

Its what makes the car fast

[celica gte racing]

Originally posted by Dealer Xing
Toyota fooled a lot of people by making the "Kicking-hard" crossover . If your midrange (4-6K) power and torque dip and suddenly an aggressive cam profile jump in of course you think it's powerful. I have driven the Celica in AutoX and this "Kicking" charactestic is not good at all, it upsets the balance on a lot of corners. I'd prefer a smoother powerband but Toyota has convinced a lot of su*kers to believe the VVTL-i is the most powerful but not very useful(narrow powerband, gearings that don't keep up).

sorry bud, I would disagree. Ok, I agree about the part lift could upset the balance of the car when taking a corner. but:

1)Toyota's goal of 2ZZ is creating a low displacement high power engine, a light, compact engine. If you want something smooth with that much power, you'd have to resort to bigger displacement, more cylinders = more imbalance.

2)The celica is FF. You can't put ur foot down so fast at the exit. So, it doesn't really matter, as by the time you hit lift you'd be out of the corner.

3)Any good driver would keep the car in lift at corner, if your pushing. In my opinion the gearing seem just right to me.

Ok, its not drivable interms of you have to downshift to find the powerband, but that doesnt matter if you're keeping the revs high when you're racing. I know the honda counterpart is better, more circuit oriented (02' integra type-R JDM). But they DO make the best engines in its own merit, so its unfair to say toyota's 2ZZ is a bad engine, because its not, its a great piece of engineering!

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by Dealer Xing
Don't know what you are talking about, the gearings between 1-2-3 gears are wide apart for the GTS. Every shift you fall into the bottom of the torque curve. Unless you overrev the motor you can't land your shift on the fat part of the powerband. 3-4-5 gearings are close though.



i dunno then...only the 1->2 shift was the problem for me when i drove one (well not a problem for me, but i could see it hurting the tranny if i kept doing it). 2->3 landed over 6000 easily or right on 6000 when i shifted lazily.

and now that i think about it, only at around 40-45mph would you have a gear selection dilemma. (1-2)...45-60 is 2nd, 60-85 is 3rd, 85-110 is 4th, etc. (roughly). i was mainly talking about the problem of torque steer when hitting lift in a turn.

[TRD Liquid Silver]

Originally posted by t2000gts


i dunno then...only the 1->2 shift was the problem for me when i drove one (well not a problem for me, but i could see it hurting the tranny if i kept doing it). 2->3 landed over 6000 easily or right on 6000 when i shifted lazily.

and now that i think about it, only at around 40-45mph would you have a gear selection dilemma. (1-2)...45-60 is 2nd, 60-85 is 3rd, 85-110 is 4th, etc. (roughly). i was mainly talking about the problem of torque steer when hitting lift in a turn.


i think what he meant about the gearing from 1-2-3 is that you have to go past redline in order for you to stay in lift. you can't just shift @7800rpms and land @6k unless your going into 4th or 5th. we all know in order to land in lift you got to take it close to cut-off. actually toyota was being conservative with the redline in the celica. if you look at most honda's and acura's the cut-off will begin 200rpm before redline. 00-01 gts cuts off @500-600rpms before redline.

[CIN]

after red line ;)