Downshifting vs. Neutral Braking

[clriner]

Ok, I have been wondering this for some time now. Is it better for your car (generally speaking) to throw the shifter to neutral and glide for a while, then press the brake to slow down- which saves on fuel and your engine isn't running but wears down the brakes more and I have heard builds up pressure in the clutch...OR is it better to keep the rpms up and downshift all the way to a stop- which wears down the clutch more but saves the brake pads and stops you quicker?

DownShift or Neutral Brake?

[clriner]

Sometimes I can glide for over a full mile at 75 mph and the engine is basically at idle speed!

[cbgt4me]

I always downshift, not only does it save on the brakes but especially in the rain and snow it can keep you from sliding. Not sure which is "better" than the others but downshifting leaves you in control, never know when you have to hit the gas and if you pop it into neutral than it lowers your response time...

[ishido]

Downshifting or engine braking is bad for you car. The engine was made to make your car go forward, not slow your car down. As has been repeated 1000x, what would you rather replace... brake pads or engine parts?

If you're coming to a "for sure" dead stop, then put it in neutral and coast to a stop. Downshifting should only be done if you plan on moving, like approaching a corner. The downshift is only to be in the right gear after a turn, not to slow down before the turn.

Engine braking will not stop you quicker BTW. The limit to your braking is your tires. A bad downshift will lock up your fronts and give you zero steering, whereas ABS will still allow you to steer. Engine braking is only necessary if you're going downhill over a long period of time and experience brake fade.

Oh yeah... and almost forgot. Engine braking only applies to the front wheels. Your brakes use 4 wheels. What's better for stopping power? 2 or 4? Apply that logic to the above paragraph...

[ArchangelX]

:werd:

I couldn't have said it bettter. Nice post.

[bLaH1031]

Yeah that was a great post ishido.

[ghostface]

yeah thats some good advice...but if you do downshift the right way(heel and toe) it can be alot more useful and less of a wear on your clutch and tranny...the engine can be used top help slow down ...when i come to a stop i use heel and toe to not lock up the wheels and when i get to about 30 mph i shift to nuetral and use the brakes....in a car like the celica neutral braking isnt that bad since it has very good brakes and is light enough for the brakes to handle it....in a car like a supra or something very heavy sometimes you must use both methods of braking at the same time for some very short stops...

basically its not that bad for your car as it may seem...if you read your owners manual they tell you in certain circumstances that downshifting is better while braking then other times


ghost

[Jeff]

Ghostface is right.

It you blip the gaz and rev-match (& double clutch), you will not wear your transmission, nor your clutch and will save on brake wear.

So lets say your a kilometer away from a circulation light and your driving 50mph and then you see the light turn red. You could either drop the car in neutral, coast, and then apply proper brake pressure.

OR

You could simply drop the shifter in neutral (lets say you were in fifth gear), double clutch & rev-match for third gear and then use the rpm to let you slow down. If you did your double clutch right, as soon as you let go of the clutch, the rpm will stay the same and proceed to decrease per the engine compression.

Then once you've reached a certain rpm (lets say 3000rpm), press the clutch again, put the shifter in neutral and apply proper brake pressure. This way you dont bring any kind of wear on the engine or othre mechanical components. Dont forget also that 18-wheelers do that all the time (but their system is a bit more complex, grant yah).

Like everything, this is a trade off. You may not wear your brakes as much but you will prolly end up burning more gaz than simply coasting toward that light since the engine isnt at idle, but decompressing. Still, I'd rather pay a few bucks more per months on gaz than to change the brake pads every so often.


However, using a combinaison of both described methods will prolly mean smoother operations for the car on the long haul ... and thats where the big bonus are. A car that has been driven smoothly over 10 years will be in much better shape, mechanically than most 10 years old car driven by bloke than cant differenciate a steering wheel from a shift knob.

My 2 pennies

[Da Kine Guy]

I usually downshift my way down to third (5-4-3 or 4-3) then switch it into neutral at around idle speed (700rpm ish). I fail to see the additional wear on the engine if you rev-match. Seems to me it's wearing just as much slowing the car down as it is speeding it up, and with my car it's not boosting so the wear is even less (8.4:1 is not much compression). The compression stroke is slowing the car down and generating the same kinda forces it normally does, the only change is the ignition stroke is not accelerating the rotation anymore so with each cycle you're losing momentum rather then gaining it.

[a1even]

Originally posted by clriner
Sometimes I can glide for over a full mile at 75 mph and the engine is basically at idle speed!

damn. teach me. are these metric miles or standard??? u muzt g0tz mAd b00st. seriously though... that was something worth mentioning after my second day behind the wheel of a vehicle.

[OutonBail59]

ok but, i dunno if this is on or off topic... say you were in 3rd gear and came to a complete stop such as a red light. Now that you are stoped, do you go straight to 1st or do you hit 2nd then 1st? j/w if it mattered or not

[Sirk_2]

You can go whereever you feel like goin...as long as you have the clutch in, you can go from 5th to 1st if you want to. *only when stopped!!!* :D

[OutonBail59]

o ok just checking.... ty

[ArchangelX]

Dude...why even bother if you're coming to a stop, anyways? Just use the brakes...and make life simple. No matter what you're saying there's still more wear and tear on the engine and tranny by doing that.

If I'm coming up to a stop sign, that I know I have to stop at for sure...why screw around with all of that?

If I'm coming to a stoplight, that all of a sudden changes lights...then I just revmatch and get on with my business in whatever gear I choose.

When's the last time you had to change your breaks on the Celica? I believe we've all quoted the fact that we haven't had to change our brakes past 40-50k+ miles... :rolleyes:

The age old statement still stands: "Which would you rather replace? Your engine & tranny or your $40 dollar brake pads?"

[2000 XYR]

Sirk_2 said:
you can go from 5th to 1st if you want to. *only when stopped!!!* :D When I had my Celica GT-S I could go from 6th to 1st at highway speeds (70MPH) with no problem. Try to figure up the RPMs if I had let the clutch out. ;)

[ArchangelX]

:eek:

I don't want to know... :wtc:

[OutonBail59]

umm...... 12,000 lol off the gage

[CreepingJeff]

i hear that in europe, the stoplights flash red before turning green. this would be a great help over here in the states, because it would be easier to decide whether to downshift or whether to put it in neutral and brake in preparation for a complete stop.

it's also good for when you're stopped at the light (in neutral) and you need to know when the light's going to turn green so you can shift into first.

[brolly33]

I have to agree with Ishido's post.

If you are braking to turn through a corner, apply brakes and press in clutch and slip into 2nd. Just as you reach your cornering speed and get off the brake, slowly release clutch as you rev match and gradually apply power as you reach the apex of the turn. Very effective at making the corners nice, exciting, smooth and fast.

If you are braking to a stop, just use the brakes. Celica brakes are a lot more robust than the clutch is and downshifting to try to "save the brakes" is false economy.

[celica gte racing]

use both, duh.

[Johan]

Originally posted by brolly33
I have to agree with Ishido's post.

If you are braking to turn through a corner, apply brakes and press in clutch and slip into 2nd. Just as you reach your cornering speed and get off the brake, slowly release clutch as you rev match and gradually apply power as you reach the apex of the turn. Very effective at making the corners nice, exciting, smooth and fast.

If you are braking to a stop, just use the brakes. Celica brakes are a lot more robust than the clutch is and downshifting to try to "save the brakes" is false economy.


This is it...

[AkUmA]

for me, if i see a red light coming up from a distance. i drop it in neutral, coast, then apply the brakes.

but if im coming into a turn a little hot, i may downshift a gear(or 2), rev matching and all, and lower my speed through the corner, maybe touch the brakes(if things seem like i cant slow it quickly), and then open her up...:wiggle:

i know alot of my friends do the downshifting in traffic, but i dont see the point if you know for sure you going to have to stop. i dont know, everyone has a different method.

[CelicaLicious]

so this is what the dealer told me about "neutral braking"

while i was arguing to the stupid service rep at kearny mesa toyota (one of his techs called him fairy gary) about my MAF, i mentioned that i put the car in nuetral while coasting down a hill blah blah blah. well him and his tech snapped back at me like i had made a deal with the devil, and swore and swore how insanely bad it was to put the car in nuetral and and brake. he claimed that it "burns out the bearings" in the transmission because the gear oil is not "sloshing around" this guy went to school for a long time..

so anyways he said it was really bad and that he had seen a numerous amount of burnt tranny's because of people doing this.

now i find that hard to believe and almost pretty dumb.. but whatever.. i've dont it in all my cars and i will continue to do it.

[Da Kine Guy]

You'll burn bearings if you brake and coast with the clutch disengaged. Leaving the car in neutral with the clutch out still lets the idler assembly and the main gears rotate, thus spinning oil up onto the bearings and all around the tranny. Right idea, wrong situation. I'm sure he just confused the two, it happens. The only thing rotating at high speed is the driveshaft if you're coasting with the clutch in and thus only the dog teeth gears are really spinning, the rest of the tranny stops because it no longer has a driving force acting upon it which provides an inadequate amount of oil to the rotating mass for the speed differences between the gears and the driveshaft. Of course, you'll have to leave it in for a bit to start damageing things, tranny oil is pretty thick stuff and will remain on the gears for a time.

[WillyK]

I either brake until the car is around 1k rpms and then put it in neutral or just put it in neutral and coast/brake to a stop. I never downshift as I'm slowing down, seems like a bunch of useless crap to me.

[Johan]

Originally posted by CreepingJeff
i hear that in europe, the stoplights flash red before turning green.



Just in some countries, not in all of them (not here).

[CreepingJeff]

Originally posted by Johan


Just in some countries, not in all of them (not here).

yeah, a friend of mine told me they do that in germany. i figured it was like that in the rest of europe as well. oops. anyway, it is a really good idea.