Car and Driver's Ten Best: WRX, RSX, and Focus and NO CELICA?!

[Keyshawn]

Ok, the WRX I can understand. As plain as it looks, it is a dominating performer in its price range. But the RSX is a car we match or surpass in every performance category, and we look better doing it. And the fukin Focus?! Are you kidding me?!! Check the link: http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/10best/2002/2002_10best_cars_opener.xml

[Brett]

I've gotton use to it by now....

[Maelfyn]

Rubbin salt in that wound... oh yeah

[t2000gts]

they're gay.

at least edmunds gave us props. (as funny and preposterous as that may have sounded a few months ago).

[mecca]

i understand the focus being there so there's some comparison, but the celi should be in place of the damn accord.

[DaileyDog]

There's a special issue by Road & Track out right now about "sporty" or "sports" cars that I saw a few nights ago at the grocery store. I open it up figuring the RSX would be there and the Celi wouldn't. I was right. So, I take a quick read through the RSX write up. They say it's main competition is the GT-S and conclude something like "The RSX knocked the Celica off the top of the heap with its power and refinement. We can't wait to see the next Celica."

Yeah, me neither. Of course, that doesn't do much for the Celica I own NOW!

Mike

[Modern Angel]

Heh.. you guys think you've got it bad... the Prelude never gets written up anywhere... and it's one of (if not <i>the</i> best) the best handling FWD cars on the market today.. with power that's only very slightly behind the RSX-S and Celica GT-S ...

Oh well... :) I guess it's kinda nice if less people know what the 'lude can do..

[Nerf Herder]

I wouldn't lose sleep over it. I don't really consider car & driver a real automobile magazine anyway.

[SlasherX]

then get another car if it bothers you that much.

magazines are only good for one thing, but finding a toilet that doesnt clog up is hard.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by SlasherX
then get another car if it bothers you that much.

magazines are only good for one thing, but finding a toilet that doesnt clog up is hard.

Uhhh....did I ever say I wanted another car because of that article? Chill out, man.

[static]

I hate to say it, but we have no one else to blame except Toyota!!!

Toyota has done a abismal job marketing the Celica. After about the 1st 6 months of production and the great "jet plane" ads, all they market is the base model GT everywhere you look. They don't promote the performance aspect of the car at all.. it's almost like they don't even want anyone to know that there is a GT-S model... I don't understand.. but its rediculous. While Acura and even Ford market their sport compact entries like proud and even overly-ambitious parents, Toyota treats the Celica like a unwanted stepchild, or even worse, a mistake.

Closed mouths don't get fed.. If Toyota isn't going to taut and yell about how great of a performer this car is, why should the publications??

Its too bad that Toyota is just more concerned with selling their grocery-getters and Suv's.. and its sad to say, but I think they are becoming more conservative as their competitors become more aggressive... Even the base POS civic model is marketed by Honda like its a friggin race car with their "Tobasco Red" comercial... While I keep watching a base model GT Celica stripped bone stock marketing the performance functions of.... "ketchup".....

Pitiful.

[Modern Angel]

Originally posted by static
Even the base POS civic model is marketed by Honda like its a friggin race car with their "Tobasco Red" comercial... While I keep watching a base model GT Celica stripped bone stock marketing the performance functions of.... "ketchup".....


Dude c'mon.. what about that awesome auto GT that Schaumburg Toyota had for sale at Car Boutique.. hehe.... :)

.... um..

[static]

Originally posted by Modern Angel


Dude c'mon.. what about that awesome auto GT that Schaumburg Toyota had for sale at Car Boutique.. hehe.... :)

.... um..

U drive the nail in deeper my friend.. .LOL.

[racinjason]

We boviously won't agree with this. The Celica will outperform the RSX in most catagories and be fairly close in others. But C&D also looks at things like headroom, and cabin space, etc. etc. The Celica will not win on those. And in order to have that better salom speed etc. we're not going to have near as nice a ride. I actually think if you take all things into account it would be a very close match up with the RSX and Celica. Both cars have good and bad points compared to each other. C&D chose the RSX. Big deal. I don't think Toyota's advertising has alot to do with this.

[Jesse IL]

Anyone who has actually read a Car & Driver should not be surprised by this. They are obviously middle aged men looking for refinement and torque first, styling last.

The WRX like said above is an obvious choice, as is the Focus given its modest price. Like it or not, the Celica had its glory days. The Celica was designed with with a certain target in mind, the Integra Type R/GSR. I would say (and any magazine would agree with me) that the Celica easily bests a GSR in any conceivable category and comes within a hair of a Type R, a car with many things sacrificed that are considered mandatory for street use (lack of sound deadening, very short gear ratios, '97-'98 models had no A/C...). For all of 2000 and 2001, the Celica definitely held the crown as best sport compact. Remember during that time Integra owners complaining about why they still had a 1994 car to deal with. The RSX is a better car (if not for its bland styling) because it is more refined and has a better, more torquey engine. The fact that it outweighs the Celica by 300 lb is the only reason the Celica is able to match it in performance. The only fault I can really see resting with Toyota is that they should have looked a bit farther down the road and possibly given the Celica a bit more displacement.

[static]

I still say Toyota doesn't push this car enough, especially since its' the only real sporty car in its lineup. The focus has been around for as many years as the Celica.. and you know what, it's still commented on by publications all the time. You know why? Cause ford MARKETS IT.. they shove it down anyones throat that will listen.. they continuously update it and release news about it (see coming SVT Focus). Compare the aftermarket for the focus to the Celica's for crying out loud.. you think this stuff happens by accident? You think the Celica is the only example of Toyota marketing inadequacy? See Solara. That car supped up is one of the baddest sedans I've seen.. but you know all we hear about for how many years? The accord.. why don't you compare the accord aftermarket to the Solara's... again... Pitiful.

[Camry2000]

Toyota is riding it's dominance and does not feel the need to advertise the flashy points of their cars. They are known for reliabilty and high resale value. That is what the people want. Most people buy Celica GTs and 4 cylinder Camry/Solaras. Why? Cause it looks fast! The new 2002 Camry is prime example of this. It got a power decrease and huge price increase.

Celicas/Camrys/Solaras are fast as sh!t when modded, even with the lack of aftermarket support. TRD tried to boast the speed of the Toyota line but failed miserably. All they did was rebadge other products and increased prices. Then they wonder why sales are not going well.

I understand why Toyota is taking this approach but at the same time I do not like it. My next car Acura TL-S 6 speed. Better buy, more power and more toys.

[simphmerj]

i think you guys miss the point.....this is coming from a magazine that had the MP3 beating the Spec V in a comparison....they aren't hard core enthusiasts, they're old geezers.

[Karim]

Originally posted by Modern Angel
Heh.. you guys think you've got it bad... the Prelude never gets written up anywhere... and it's one of (if not <i>the</i> best) the best handling FWD cars on the market today.. with power that's only very slightly behind the RSX-S and Celica GT-S ...

Oh well... :) I guess it's kinda nice if less people know what the 'lude can do..

at least you guys get an aftermarket

Karim

[Keyshawn]

Static,
You make some interesting points. I share your point of view.

[static]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Static,
You make some interesting points. I share your point of view.

Thanks, its amazing how hard it is to get some support around here : )

Basically, the "racer" cars are getting very hot, so hot that even Manufacturers are noticing to the point where you're seeing more and more "factory" body kits and performance parts... but it seems that while Toyota had a jump on everybody with TRD, now it's like they don't want any part of it. Well, at least for the celica, maybe they want to conquer the "racer" market with their supped up trucks and grocery getters... and one bad ass station wagon. Who needs sports cars anyway...

[redtuna]

While I was looking thru the car magazines at Chapters, I saw the Consumer Reports 2002 car previews(I know consumer reports is lame) well anyways, their ranking is as follows for the Compact Sports cars:

1. WRX
2. Celica
5. RSX (I think it was 5th, or was it third)
and last place was the Sunfire =)

Anyways, even though consumer reports is not a big car mag, but if they are putting these imports at the top of their list, it must show that they are not that biased.... Check it out next time you are at your local bookstore or whatever... Its all a matter of taste btw, a lot of these american magazines are biased, they only like hondas and fords... not much u can do there

[SDK1028]

i wouldn't take too seriously their "Top Ten" list of cars, since they had the Focus on for the second straight year...a car that has had several major recalls...how can a car that has had several recalls be on a "Top Ten" list? are you kidding me?

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by SDK1028
i wouldn't take too seriously their "Top Ten" list of cars, since they had the Focus on for the second straight year...a car that has had several major recalls...how can a car that has had several recalls be on a "Top Ten" list? are you kidding me?

I totally agree.

[HilfigerCelica]

Mao, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on the Camry. The 4 cylinder got a power increase while the V6 remained the same. Actually a compariably equipped '02 will cost less than a '01.

Static, I agree with you bro. Ford has parts for the Focus even before it was out. When the Celica first came out, the fighter jet commercials were cool. But when they started to advertise GT's, it all went downhill. The are marketing it as a econobox with a little style. Just look at the car in the ketchup commercials, it has hubcaps and no spoiler.

I also think that Toyota should have looked at the competition a little in the near future. Now for $18K, you can get a SVT Focus or a Spec V, and hang with a GTS.

[chameleon]

I for one think that Toyota did a great job marketing the Celica. The reason I say that is because sales of the 2000 Celica Model increased by 219% over the 1999 Model. How can you argue with that? That is a marketing success story.

I do agree with static about how TRD suddenly seems to want no part of the Celica. It's actually kind of interesting to observe, because the actions that they are taking seem so illogical. I mean, there are only two sport cars currently in Toyota's line up, right? It seems like TRD, a performance tuning division of Toyota, would focus on the sporty performance minded car models, doesn't it? But for some reason, that didn't happen at all. I think that its very confusing, and kind of unsettling. It almost makes it seem like they know something that we don't about the car that made them suddenly abandon it...

Anyway, I am officially happy with out aftermarket support. We finally have a forced induction system that will be released any time now(the blitz supercharger). I know that some of you will want to push forward with turbo's and internals, and those of you will still need to fight for more aftermarket parts. All I want is that supercharger, getting close to the 300hp mark was my goal all along...

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by chameleon
It's actually kind of interesting to observe, because the actions that they are taking seem so illogical. I mean, there are only two sport cars currently in Toyota's line up, right? It seems like TRD, a performance tuning division of Toyota, would focus on the sporty performance minded car models, doesn't it? But for some reason, that didn't happen at all. I think that its very confusing, and kind of unsettling. It almost makes it seem like they know something that we don't about the car that made them suddenly abandon it...

I have this same concern. Hopefully, we're just being paranoid.

[larryd]

honestly..who cares about what the magazines have to say about the car.. its about wether or not you like it, not them ;)

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by larryd
... its about wether or not you like it, not them ;)

Agreed.

[MihoKiyo]

Remember when toyota stopped making the supra because of the clutch problems(i think?)

.. maybe trd(and then later on toyota?) is going to do the same & abandon the celica because of the misshifts?

[oldster]

Originally posted by chameleon
I do agree with static about how TRD suddenly seems to want no part of the Celica. It's actually kind of interesting to observe, because the actions that they are taking seem so illogical. I mean, there are only two sport cars currently in Toyota's line up, right? It seems like TRD, a performance tuning division of Toyota, would focus on the sporty performance minded car models, doesn't it? But for some reason, that didn't happen at all. I think that its very confusing, and kind of unsettling. It almost makes it seem like they know something that we don't about the car that made them suddenly abandon it...



Eroded margins due to excessive warranty costs?

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by racinjason
We boviously won't agree with this. The Celica will outperform the RSX in most catagories and be fairly close in others. But C&D also looks at things like headroom, and cabin space, etc. etc. The Celica will not win on those. And in order to have that better salom speed etc. we're not going to have near as nice a ride. I actually think if you take all things into account it would be a very close match up with the RSX and Celica. Both cars have good and bad points compared to each other. C&D chose the RSX. Big deal. I don't think Toyota's advertising has alot to do with this.
I think this explains it perfectly.

[yakkosmurf]

Originally posted by oldster


Eroded margins due to excessive warranty costs?
This cannot be overlooked. It's the reason Toyota puts more advertising dollars into its SUVs. They are higher margin items than the Celica. And that was before the warranty repairs.

[tool462]

I wouldn't be too surprised if they are downplaying the GT-S's because of the number of people who misshift, and the fact they are covering it under warranty in a lot of cases. It has to cost them a fortune in parts and labor. They may be riding on the GT until the 2004 Celi comes out.

[yakkosmurf]

That could be it too. Why sell more of something that's been costing you money?