Got my car aligned(tell me what these specs mean)

[X-EVIL-X]

well the car drives a lot better and smoother and the sterring wheel is finally straight.
this is what the place told me what they could do.

REAR CAMBER
:left:-------:right:
1 1/4"--------2"

*toe 3/16

front camber
:left:------:right:
1" --------1 1/2"

*toe 3/32

they said my car was way out of spec and this is the best they could do.
i cant really understand this very muh because they seem to be different for the back and front and i have no idea what that means.
can someone explain this to me.
they charged me 70 bucks

[scapamouche]

If they told you camber was in inches, they were blowing smoke. Camber is in degrees. For performance, you want negative camber. This means that the wheels look like they are leaning like this:

/--\ This is good. It's bad if they look like this: \--/

The specs sheet should read -1.2 degress, or whatever the setting is. Make sure you got the settings sheet and take a look.

I also think it should be symmetrical. If it's not the same on both sides, the car will have different characteristics turning different directions. This is OK for a stock car that only turns left, very bad for a road car that turns both ways.

I don't know if the .75 degree difference you indicate really matters, but it's something to watch.

For the other guys here, I had a shop today recommend not putting any toe out at all for a road or race car. Their theory is that loads on the suspension as the car speeds up will tend to turn the wheels outward, leading to toe out. Does this make sense to anyone? They recommend either zero or slight toe IN. I'm inclined to go with zero toe, front and rear, and about -2 degrees front and -1.5 degrees rear camber. Street and autox driving.

[scapamouche]

And.... I have a sudden hatred for imagestation. It sometimes allows my sig to show, sometimes gives that hosting crap.

Bastages.

Anyone know where I can host my sig now?

[X-EVIL-X]

your right its not in inches" its in degrees.
so in back its (left wheel 1 1/4) and right(2 degrees)
they didn't write - degree on the specs but they are that way because i still have slanted tires in back / \(like that.
its not as bad as it was before though.

Toe
is 3/16 (for back) and 3/32(front) bad?
what would optimise performance in a straight line also.

also the steering wheel feels looser than before(is that normal?).

[scapamouche]

I can't speak for the steering wheel thing, but intuitively, it doesn't sound right.

As for the toe thing, some of the guys here have talked about having slight toe out in front, but I just don't know. That's why I asked, the shop today was saying things I'd never heard.

Toe out is SUPPOSEDLY good for turning, but can make the car very squirrelly and drifty in a straight line. Basically, toe out makes the wheels look like this when viewed from above:

\--/. towards the front of the car is UP.

Admittedly, almost all of my actual experience with adjusting the alignment comes from GT3, but putting slight toe out in the rear makes most of the cars I've messed with in that game turn better.

[X-EVIL-X]

so your saying things that youve done in the game(not in actual real life)?
i mean the toe isn't the much at all right?
they said it was pretty bad when i first got in there...

[scapamouche]

yup. alignments are too expensive for me to do too many of them on my car. I'll be getting my first autox alignment in the next week or so, as soon as I get crash bolts.

My real world knowledge is from guys like autxr and nxracer who have been around here for ages.

As far as your toe situation, I don't think it's that bad, but it doesn't take much toe to completely change the character of the car.

You should try driving on it as is. If you like it, and it doesn't make you feel out of control, go for it.

When you can, I recommend you try an autocross or two. Nothing teaches you car control as well as seat time, and autox is the most cost effective way of doing that LEGALLY. Over the years since I started, my own car control abilities have gone up drastically.
I'm pretty sure there is a healthy auotcross scene in Phoenix. In fact, I think we have a couple of active people in the autox section from there. try www.scca.org or www.nasaproracing.com and look for local events under the regional listings.

[erok]

I think that scapamouche is right about the settings being done symmetrically right and left. I know some people even sit in their cars while doing an alignment to account for their own body weight's effect on camber. There's no reason why the mechanic can't get it the same on both sides other than that they're lazy.

As far as toe goes, new Celicas are very sensitive to rear toe because the suspension design actually causes the rear toe out to increase as the car body leans in turns.

I'd make sure the rear toe is at least set symmetrically from side to side. Does your print out list the toe settings on each side, or just the total toe front and back?

With 1.5

[X-EVIL-X]

they wrote on here that the toe for each side is (front) 3/32
and (Back) 3/16.
i adjusted the front right wheel a little tiny bit when i got home.
i noticed that it was lower than the left side so i raised it up that much.
so is there anything bad about this?
they said my car was pretty bad before because i haven't got an alignment sinse i got the car or lowered it...

[scapamouche]

ummm... it's a very bad idea to mess about with the alignment yourself unless you have the proper training and equipment. A small adjustment can totally screw up the alignment if you're not careful.

I'd keep a careful eye on the tire wear you see in the future, and the next time you get an alignment, get the shop to set it to what you want. For more front camber, use crash bolts. Do a search on the autox forum and you'll see what I mean. They allow up to 2 or 2.5 degrees of negative camber.

I ordered two 3-dot bolts today, and I'm getting an anlignment done next friday.

I'm going for camber: -2.0 front, -1.5 rear; toe: 0 all around.

I don't think the celica is adjustible for caster, so I'm not worrying about that.

[pitcrew]

First, if you have adjustable coilovers, you should set your ride height and corner weighting BEFORE doing an alignment, Changing anything after will make a mess. Go to a shop that caters to the AX crowd in your area, and has a Hunter lazer alignment setup.
Sit in the seat while alignment is done for most accurate settings. We found that Driver's weight (120#) made .2* change side to side! Proper specs are quite a debate... Most agree that ~ -2.0* front camber is right, and 0" toe for street and AX. Front caster is not adjustable. The two sides should ALWAYS be the same. If the alignment shop can't get satisfactory equal settings, then "crash bolts" are called for!
Rear settings are where the debate rages. #'s are from -1.2* to -2.0 degrees, with 1/16" toe out to 1/4" toe IN being used. The only good way to decide is pick something in the -1.3- 1.5* range and 0- 1/8" toe in (safe and quite drivable for the street), then test it by taking tire temps at an AX, because driving style will call for different settings for different drivers.
The specs you quoted look like they were done by a lazy tech who is satisfied with "it's within factory (very broad) specs so screw it!" work, and/or works on a flat rate salary. I pay 75.00 for an accurate alignment. (I'm extemely fussy! aka ANAL about it.)

[Raymund]

Originally posted by erok
I think that scapamouche is right about the settings being done symmetrically right and left. I know some people even sit in their cars while doing an alignment to account for their own body weight's effect on camber. There's no reason why the mechanic can't get it the same on both sides other than that they're lazy.

actually some cars can benifit from unequal settings (asymmetrical) it all depends on the track and $$ of course. I'm sure it can be applied to our cars with some R&D. Roger Foo, current winner of speedvisions WCTC in Laguna Seca, uses more camber on the right tires compared to the left. (sorry, I forgot the specs but it was significant enough for me to take note.) however, this set-up is specifially for Laguna Seca only and for what reasons, I dont know. Champ and Indy cars in contrast goes one step over that by putting possitive camber on the left and neg on the right at oval tracks.

[scapamouche]

Laguna seca is primarily a left turn course, so it makes sense to have more camber on the right. Look at the course map- all the major turns are left handers- Andretti, Corkscrew, all but the two in the infield, really ( I know, and the exit from the Corkscrew.)

Same applies to the circle track guys, just much more so.

I've seen 1/4 mile oval cars that looked like this: I--\
The left wheel fully vertical, and about -8-10 degrees on the right.

[ishido]

it's possible that the alignment was setup up to accomadate for crowned roads. An aligned car on a crowned road will still drift since the road is higher in the middle and lower at the edges.
Just a possibility :1