I Think It Would Be Good For Everyone To Hear What Happens To Bullet1 and Blitzcelica

[NSX_GTR_LM]

I saw that BillWS6 closed the post, but I think it is important for everyone to see what eventually goes on. Please don't close this thread, just don't look at it if you don't like it. This is very important. If it does end up that this is a scam, the people here should know. Its also a good lesson to buying stuff online. I don't understand why you close this thread, but you let the other thread about the turbo neon run up to over 70 posts. I didn't want to read it after a while, so I stopped clickin on it. If anyone doesn't know what has been goin on, check this thread.

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9294

[BillWS6Formula]

As the notice at the top of the board says, strictly personal issues between members are to be taken to email or pm. But this case did have some ramifications for other site users for the reasons you pointed out and that's why it remained open as long as it did - UNTIL it started to deteriorate as it did. So, I will leave this one open ONLY for someone to post whatever resolution to the situation (if any) comes about. If it's used for arguing again, it will get closed.

As for the Neon thread? It's more strictly automotive related and redeeming arguments from both sides did keep popping enough to leave it open. As always, and this is in no means meant as a flame, if you don't like a thread you don't have to click on it :-).

[NSX_GTR_LM]

thanx alot billws6, i appreciate it. It is important to know what to do with online buying, and i understand the flaming that was going on last thread. If you read the end of my post, i said that i stopped clickin on the neon post, so i comprendo what you mean :). If you guys dont want it here (which i completely understand), why not take it over to Teamcelica bullet1? Just a thought. Thanx again billws6.

[BillWS6Formula]

No problem, I'll "sticky" it on top for a couple days while waiting for an outcome.

[larryd]

and to reply to the questions about member rating or hall of shame or whatever.. thats actually really difficult to implement.. and then theirs the ? of who does the rating and when etc etc etc..

[NSX_GTR_LM]

Alright, well, here is an update. First let me answer a few questions. A certain member stated that he smelled a scam, because how could brian have 10 witnesses. The reason is he had it mailed to his work, so when he opened it, a lot of people saw it. Now that thats cleared up, this is basically what is going to happen. Brian (Bullet1) would most likely waste more money in fees than he would get in return, so he is most likely going to have to eat the cost and paint the valence. This obviously upsets me because he is my friend, but I will try to remain as unbiased as possible. Either way, two people have a problem here now. Brian is out some money. and Kai's reputation is blown.

I think it is important for everyone who is interested to know both of these people's names too, and therefore they can decide whether or not they want to deal with these people. Bullet1 is Brian Vance, and Blitzcelica is Kai lin Cheng.

I think this is a first hand lesson on the dangers of buying things over the internet. LarryD, I think you should consider an FAQ section including some does and donts of internet buying.

TAKE PICTURES!!!! This is probably the most important. Check out what you are actually looking at.

Get a phone number and talk to the person so if somethin like this can be takin care of with a direct phone call. If a person is hesitant to give out there number, I quite frankly would be hesitant to deal with them.

My advice to the seller is to give the full history of the part. In the entire email exchange, it nowhere said anything about a bumper being repainted, that was a big issue here. When you trade in a car, you have to give the history of that, so why not be considerate and give the history.

Also, give a reasonable price for the condition. For those of you who do not know, the piece in question would have been shipped to me for around 230, Brian got a quote for 240, BRAND NEW ALREADY PAINTED. TRD doesn't produce them anymore in the painted colors(I have heard they produce them unpainted), so that is why he cant get them. Therefore, asking 220 for the valence is high, but if it in as good of shape as claimed, then it is up to the buyer. Make sure you do not make any false claims, because people want to get what they pay for.

And for the Hall of FAME, I would like to let you all know that if you ever deal with LaW, he does things very well. He takes pictures, gave me shipping dates, his phone number, and was a pleasure to deal with. He also takes care of his stuff, and gave me full history of his wheels that I bought. No surprises with him.

BillWS6, thanks for understanding why i thought this should be heard, and it makes me feel so proud that my post was labeled as important :) Seriously though, I think you might want to leave this up for a few more days or until Bullet1 or Blitzcelica replies as to the actual final outcome of what is going on. Brian has placed a claim with internet fraud, but this usually doesn't go very far.

LarryD, instead of the hall of Shame, maybe an FAQ on internet buying. I think it could only help, but its up to you (since you run this place...hehe)

[GTS LAID]

hall of shame... member ratings... no need for all that... its simple really, one's an idiot and the other's a bastard...

TRD parts come prepainted... if you painted over them then it's only fair to say that they were re-painted to that color.

the other, of course, paid 200 dollars including shipping on an item that goes for what 600 normally, without shipping. get what you paid for... you think he would've let go of it for that much if it was in brand new condition.

there are plenty of internet buying FAQs out there. go on ebay under buyer tips... and you can read for three days about buying on the internet.

I suggest that if you distrust a person or worry about the item's integrity then you can easily ask them to post the item on ebay and have them end the auction once you win... that way the buyer is protected and the seller gets his money and ratings. what about the fees... well if the buyer is the one who's worried, then guess what.. hes the one that pays them... i think its a pretty simple solution.

[blitzcelica]

Let me ask u some questions nsx(or anyone that is concerned with this issue), What Would u do if u are the seller and u just sent out an item without any defect. By the time it gets there and the buyer is demanding for the half amount of money with pictures of defected item.

I m willing to take it back and and pay for the half of shipping cost with brian's full refund under one condition. Which is no scratch nor any other defect just like i have shipped it to him be4.

This is my final statement and i wont be posting here anymore. It is because ppl are thinking i m the one who is at fault and been dishonest. If ppl are still in doubt about me then so be it.............

[Camry2000]

Originally posted by blitzcelica
Let me ask u some questions nsx(or anyone that is concerned with this issue), What Would u do if u are the seller and u just sent out an item without any defect. By the time it gets there and the buyer is demanding for the half amount of money with pictures of defected item.

I m willing to take it back and and pay for the half of shipping cost with brian's full refund under one condition. Which is no scratch nor any other defect just like i have shipped it to him be4.

This is my final statement and i wont be posting here anymore. It is because ppl are thinking i m the one who is at fault and been dishonest. If ppl are still in doubt about me then so be it.............


Packaging and damage is the responsibility of the seller not the buyer. If you order something and it is damaged on arriaval the seller by law has to send a replacement or refund your money including S&H.

If you say it was flawless when you shipped it out but the recipiten says otherwise, I would side with the recipient. I find it hard to believe that anyone would go to all this trouble and then say I want my money back at the risk of losing dollars on S&H. My ruling is for the plaintiff. Thanks for visiting Camry Court. :)

[GeeTeeEss]

I have an idea...

<img src="http://judgejudy.com/images/global/standing.jpg">

[NSX_GTR_LM]

haha, yhats already been thought of GeeTeeEss :)

[lnux-rhat]

$200 for a $600 part?
I would smell something fishy before the item was shipped.
1st rule for on-line buyers - get pix, pix, pix
You always get, what you pay for.

[NSX_GTR_LM]

The part is not $600. Partznet was selling them for about 230-240 shipped, prepainted. I got a deal on mine cause i bought the whole kit, so it was a little less. They don't sell them anymore, so i think you can only get them in unpainted now.

[Cronos]

Originally posted by Camry2000



Packaging and damage is the responsibility of the seller not the buyer. If you order something and it is damaged on arriaval the seller by law has to send a replacement or refund your money including S&H.

If you say it was flawless when you shipped it out but the recipiten says otherwise, I would side with the recipient. I find it hard to believe that anyone would go to all this trouble and then say I want my money back at the risk of losing dollars on S&H. My ruling is for the plaintiff. Thanks for visiting Camry Court. :)

LMAO, the jury has spoken.

[bullet1]

Blitz, I don't want to start another little flame war with you and your buddies so I will just say this. Void of all the scratches on this thing I would still have to get it repainted. This is the thing I don't think you understand. Whether this thing left your house perfect or not, there is no way it was painted on the way to my house. Please how do you explain how it got paint drips, totally uneven paint job, and overspray everywhere, the white underneath not completely covered up on the way to my house. This just isn't possible. You say you will take it back if it is in the same condition. Tough statement for you to make since you are the only one who knows what it looked like before you shipped it. No pics, just your word (which is more than questionable) and a (very questionable) buddy. I can tell you this, give me a refund and you will get the valence back just as I recieved it, which if it wasn't in good condition, would be your fault for not packing it correctly. Because the box was untampered with when it showed up at my work.

[rocket celica]

blitz! It's evident you sent a part that was in poor condition.
You either exaggerated the condition of the item. Why not just come to an agreement on the compensation. $220 isn't much money. Refund the sucker $100 and get it over with. For me, It's not worth soiling my reputation for some trivial doe.
Maybe if it was over a grand or two.

[fastest1]

Actually, Mao does have a good point, the responsiblility to pack and ship (and maybe insure) the package sufficiently all rests on the seller. From a legal standpoint, the seller made the contract by posting the supposed condition of the part originally. Any time ther is a dispute over a contract, be it written, assumed, verbal, etc., the creator of the contract is at fault.
Either way I look at it, legally, the seller should be liable here.
Morally? Who the hell knows, no way for me to judge who is lying and who is telling the truth, but Mao did bring up some excellent food for thought.

[Camry2000]

I hate to ring in twice but from a credibality standpoint, the recipient has the advantage here.

The buyer wanted this product even at the risk of sending cash to a stranger with the possibility of no net returns. My question is, Why would the recipient lie about the condition of the product? There is nothing to gain by doing so? At best the recipient will get his/her money back.

I mean how many times have you got up and said, "Hmmm I got $200 I'm not using. I think I will make make a ruckus by ordering a perfectly mint condition used item and then return it on the grounds of poor quality in the hopes of possibly get my money back."

I will tell you what I think happened. Two possibilities, neither favor the seller.

Scenario 1 : Highly unlikely but possible
Item was damaged during transit. If this happened, the seller is still responsible and by law must offer a refund including any S&H costs or offer a replacement item equal to what was originally agreed upon.

Scenario 2: What I think is the truth
Seller over exageratted the condition of said merchandise or the recipient was lead to believe that the merchandise was of better quality than in reality.

Either way, a contract has been made between the seller and the recipient. Three things are required to form a valid contract. 1) Offer 2) Consideration 3) Agreement

1) The seller offered to sell said merchandise at X dollars plus any S&H fees.
2) The buyer considers the price, S&H and condition of said merchandise
3) Both parties agree and an exchange of funds is initiated.

My ruling still stands. Judgement is for the plaintiff. The defendant is ordered to either send a replacement or refund the entire amount plus any S&H fees that may have incurred. You are out of appeals.

[PorkchopSpecblue GT-S]

You are lucky you even got a part. I sent Jotan82 $250 dollars for a stock rear bumper painted of course. Never got the thing or any kind of refund. He claims it got lost in the mail and thats that huh? Yeah OK. I've been waiting for this bumper since August 8,2001. I asked him for some kind of verification that he even sent this thing so I could get the insurance money, he had nothing. He says he had already thrown it out. Fishy story if you ask me............................ No money and no Bumper till this mother Focken Day. What am I supposed to do?

[bullet1]

Camry... You are definitly correct in your assumptions. I think it may have been both. The Seller over exageratted the condition of the valence and I was led to believe that it was in better condition than it was. Plus it may have been scratched during shipping which would also be the sellers fault for not packing correctly. All your scenarios lead up to him giving me a refund. I have offered to even to pay for the shipping back to him. Either way it doesn't seem like he is very interested in clearing his name. He is content in ripping me off.

[Fourgig]

Originally posted by Camry2000
...the seller is still responsible and by law must offer a refund including any S&H costs or offer a replacement item equal to what was originally agreed upon....

You keep spouting this line. I'd like to see what law you are refering to that says the seller is responsible for shipping damages.

[Camry2000]

Originally posted by Fourgig


You keep spouting this line. I'd like to see what law you are refering to that says the seller is responsible for shipping damages.


Since you so rudely spouted out your skepticism, I'm going to make you work for it. Start reading or get a lawyer for confirmation. I know from a past experience with my company lawyer.

Here is a hint, the info you want is in the FTC's Consumer Protection Act. It protects consumers from retailer fraud, billing, returns, refunds and other disputes between buyer and seller. Had it not been for this act, retailers can sell you a pile of junk and merely claim damage during shipping.

Also check out the laws on shipping contracts between retailers and their shipper.

[Camry2000]

Who is arguing? I was not aware of an argument, merely an exchange of information.

[Camry2000]

Originally posted by PorkchopSpecblue GT-S
You are lucky you even got a part. I sent Jotan82 $250 dollars for a stock rear bumper painted of course. Never got the thing or any kind of refund. He claims it got lost in the mail and thats that huh? Yeah OK. I've been waiting for this bumper since August 8,2001. I asked him for some kind of verification that he even sent this thing so I could get the insurance money, he had nothing. He says he had already thrown it out. Fishy story if you ask me............................ No money and no Bumper till this mother Focken Day. What am I supposed to do?

You tell Mr. Jotan that the burden of proof for shipping is on him. By law Mr. Jotan has 30 days to deliver the merchandise. The clock ticks as soon as the order has arrived and funding has been allocated.

I can give you a link to this law if you want. I would post it here but I want our rude skeptic friend to continue his study. Hopefully in the future he will learn to ask for sources.

[cruzerz545]

I know how it feels to get ripped off. I got ripped of on my Nitrous kit.

[ToyoGT]

Originally posted by PorkchopSpecblue GT-S
You are lucky you even got a part. I sent Jotan82 $250 dollars for a stock rear bumper painted of course. Never got the thing or any kind of refund. He claims it got lost in the mail and thats that huh? Yeah OK. I've been waiting for this bumper since August 8,2001. I asked him for some kind of verification that he even sent this thing so I could get the insurance money, he had nothing. He says he had already thrown it out. Fishy story if you ask me............................ No money and no Bumper till this mother Focken Day. What am I supposed to do?


Hunt him down. Same thing happened to me(only it was for a hockey jersey) and I went all the way to North Carolina to find his @ss...when I did I got my money back. he was like "oh I was about to mail out your money today" Whatever

doesn't anyone insure what they are sending anymore?? seriously for like $5 extra you can get like $400-500 in insurance for what you are sending. If somethings happens during shipping and the product is lost, stolen, or damaged then you get the insurance.

My boyfriend and I ordered an MTX amp. from Sounddomain.com, we had done business with them before and they were reliable in shipping products out fast and they good prices. The MTX amp. didn't work when i got, it put out no rear outputs. It became Sounddomain's responsibility to take the amp. back and send me a new one and pay for the shipping costs. When we shipped out the amp. back to them we made sure it was packaged safely and properly and paid like $5 for insurance on it.. if something were to have happened to that amp. when it was shipped we would have gotten like somewhere around $500 from the insurance.

But it is the seller's responsibility to take care of the item they are selling. When you buy something from a store and it doesn't work right or its broken... the store takes responsibility and allows you to return or exchange the item. They don't just say "no. we won't accept it for return unless its in the same condition we sold it to you in" (them assuming there was nothing wrong with it).

I have to take the buyers side on this one. People don't like to just throw their money around... i don't see why the buyer would order something from someone and just try to pull some crap about the quality being bad and wanting to send it back when it was supposedly fine. I truly believe the product was sent not in the condition that was told to the buyer. If its brand new and painted with no imperfections which i'm sure the seller was trying to get across so he could get rid of it, then why would the buyer complain... why is the paint messed up with drip marks and scratchs??? i mean scratches can happen during shipping but that is what the insurance is for, and the seller still has to take responsibility and get it taken care of.

[RIC3BoiGTS]

Hey Blitz, do you have a reciept for that professional paint job?

[bullet1]

I'm pretty sure he is done posting about it. He knows it was in no way professional. He can't explain anything about the valence, all he says is that it left his house perfect... blah blah blah. Yep, i came to grips that I just got ripped and moved on with it. Blitz lives too far away and there isn't enough money involved to move any further with this.

I got initially quoted $200+ to get this thing prep'd and painted. I decided that was way to much so I ended up doing all the prep work myself. I wet sanded all the scratches down and the paint drips until this thing was smooth as a babys butt. That took about 4-5 hours of good sanding since it was in such poor condition. I then took it back to the same trusted body shop and he said he would now do it for $100. So I left it there. I know he will do a good job and make it look like it was supposed to look in the first place. So Blitz, you cost me $100 bucks, and 5 hours of my time, I hope you are proud of yourself. I know others on this board have gotten hit harder than me, but I just wanted to put an end to this thing so Bill or whoever can take it off the "Important" list.

I appreciate all who took this case for what it was and took my side. I wish all of you could have seen the valence in person because it told a much better story than I ever could. I know I showed it to 5-6 of my Team Celica buddies and they were amazed, as I am sure most of you would have been.

Time to start getting ready for some shows... :D Later all.

[BillWS6Formula]

Done. Live and learn...