Car and Driver FOURGASM

[RACERGTS2000]

This may have been posted before but has anyone seen this months Car and Driver? It has a shootout of modded fourbangers everything from an Evo to a new civic with a Type S motor in it compete but no Celica. My question is where is the D**n Hotchkis Racing Celica?????? They should have competed to support the Celica community. It just gets more and more frustrating how the Celica is treated like a all show car. Everybody with a modded car and not that much sense think our cars are slow. I had a guy in a mid 90 Altima try to race me 2 days ago. His radio was up pretty loud and people just dont realize its easy to here you talking outside of the car at a light. His passenger said, "Race him." The driver said "Arent they fast?"
The passenger said "NO THEY JUST LOOK FAST THERE ACTUAL PRETTY DAMN SLOW." WTF needless to say I let them know after first gear Celicas arent slow. I didnt launch so I shifted into second right at his window POOWWWW backfire for there ignorant a** then I let off. Sorry for going on a Tangent. The question is why do you guys think the Hotchkis Celica didnt compete? Do they have to be invited?

[Karim]

The S2k was soooooo purdy :D It's very close to what I want mine like when it's finished.

Karim

[X-EVIL-X]

the celica's first gear is good after 30mph

[RACERGTS2000]

EVIL I ment after I was finished with first (not after first )worded weird. I only went through first gear and let off. I showed them I didnt need to go any further.

[Toy4War]

Yeah I was disappointed that there was not a Celica in the group. Not only Hotchkis, but what about the project Celica of Turbo mag or Super Street (or is it Sport Compact Car)? No MR2 either (to show the 1zz performance). I'm so frustrated looking through magazines for a Celica.

[BRAK]

The Hotchkis Celica was sold on E-BAY. That is one lucky owner.

[WillyK]

Face it people, the Celica is old news and it's not fast. It handles well, but that's about it. It does not deserve to be in all these mag lists and competitions, it just can't hang anymore.

[TRD GT-S]

Originally posted by WillyK
Face it people, the Celica is old news and it's not fast. It handles well, but that's about it. It does not deserve to be in all these mag lists and competitions, it just can't hang anymore.

But but but...mommy says the celica is really fast and she is always right..:wtc: you liar!! haha nah for real though, I agree with you.

[t2000gts]

**disclaimer - ignore this post if your idea of fast is a 2nd or 3rd gear pull with another car on the street when traffic clears up. if you like your celica, just get a 50 shot of nitrous, and stop complaining. if you don't, get rid of it.**

it's as fast as the Type S, stock, and handles better stock. it just doesn't have as big an aftermarket. the aftermarket it does have tho, you can run low 14s and trap 100mph with ease (unless you live at some elevation or in nasty weather like florida) and these are all easy mods that won't hinder longetivity. if you can drive, get a standalone ECU (tuning plus rev limiter) you could be in 13s. if the cams ever come out (and from what i've read, crower isn't giving up), you already have pistons and rods for not that much money ($525 for a set of pistons in any compression, $700-$800 for a set of connecting rods) and i recall someone was trying to get ferrea to work out a valvetrain. it would be a killer daily driver, and if you took care of it, could rape on the track. (if you have that much money, look into a new oil pump and rotor from a company in japan like inging or c-one).

put a good suspension with just I/H/E, and it will outhandle most of the newer cars. i think SCC's handling records still stand.

remember, the hotchkis celica wasn't a drag car, it kicked ass on a circuit. it lapped a second slower i think than a stock EVO VII without any power mods. race tires? put on a set of legal S-03s or other new age tire that delivers good traction. that hotchkis celica actually was only like 3-4 seconds behind per lap than a 500hp boss EVO IV. check SCC's archives for that car's runs.

the XS turbo if ever released, is great bang for the buck considering it comes with EVERYTHING including a $1200 standalone ECU. won't handle as well as a N/A celica with killer suspension but it won't be too far off. Blitz's SC is on the way too.

face it, you guys are talking about ditching the celica, only to get evo or type S, and put $3-4k into that car's engine alone. hello? that's exactly the same price you guys refuse to pay for the celica. magical performance for under a grand...yeah right.

it is too bad hotchkis sold their old celica, but i wonder what's going on with that supercharged car of theirs? maybe next time SCC (Car & Driver = bunch of ***** old men editors, throw a german into the group and it would win easily) has a shootout, someone with a celica and the TVS kit would donate their vehicle for a weekend provided SCC brings the tires? everyone's forgetting SCC liked the celica a lot, and saw a lot of what it was capable of. toyota just never donates cars, and hotchkis' car is gone. although you don't even need to do that, SCC would have to be foaming at the mouth and raving like crazy about a car's handling and put up some very very nice numbers for it to be anywhere close to the hotchkis car. what was it, 75mph slalom? 57 second lap at buttonwillow? it would have toasted that civic with Type S engine swap. or probably not because CAR & DRIVER were the guys doing the shootout and they can't drive for ****. hell, any guy in their own celica w/TVS kit plus race tires could probably BEAT a C&D driver in an EVO. that's how bad their times for cars are (straight line and laps)

[larryd]

I dont think I would have wanted to see the Hotchkis Celica in there anyway because those cars ran pathetic times out there and really made 4 bangers look sad.

I seriously dont think it was the cars fault though, the people at C&D really need to learn how to drive.

[Chumpchiggy]

Originally posted by WillyK
Face it people, the Celica is old news and it's not fast. It handles well, but that's about it. It does not deserve to be in all these mag lists and competitions, it just can't hang anymore.

:werd:

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by larryd
I dont think I would have wanted to see the Hotchkis Celica in there anyway because those cars ran pathetic times out there and really made 4 bangers look sad.

I seriously dont think it was the cars fault though, the people at C&D really need to learn how to drive.

:werd: the only mag i bother looking at for sport compact comparisons is....surprise, Sport Compact Car, because they can at least drive the cars properly.

and like i said, all the cars tested...haven't broke the hotchkis car's records.

so it depends on your priorities. braking, skidpad, slalom, lap times vs. quarter mile times.

i highly recommend the Neon SRT4 to anyone who's even debating the above. it's a fantastic car for the money, and a few thousand less than a GTS so a trade-in sounds reasonable.

[Fiero]

That article was a waste of paper.

[RACERGTS2000]

t2000gts I agree with everything you said. Also Ill donate my car next time if I can drive it or SCC drivers drive it. My car isnt heavily modded but what the hell. Also Ill have to drive 3000 miles to get to the event :- (.

[BRAK]

Originally posted by t2000gts
**disclaimer - ignore this post if your idea of fast is a 2nd or 3rd gear pull with another car on the street when traffic clears up. if you like your celica, just get a 50 shot of nitrous, and stop complaining. if you don't, get rid of it.**

it's as fast as the Type S, stock, and handles better stock. it just doesn't have as big an aftermarket. the aftermarket it does have tho, you can run low 14s and trap 100mph with ease (unless you live at some elevation or in nasty weather like florida) and these are all easy mods that won't hinder longetivity. if you can drive, get a standalone ECU (tuning plus rev limiter) you could be in 13s. if the cams ever come out (and from what i've read, crower isn't giving up), you already have pistons and rods for not that much money ($525 for a set of pistons in any compression, $700-$800 for a set of connecting rods) and i recall someone was trying to get ferrea to work out a valvetrain. it would be a killer daily driver, and if you took care of it, could rape on the track. (if you have that much money, look into a new oil pump and rotor from a company in japan like inging or c-one).

put a good suspension with just I/H/E, and it will outhandle most of the newer cars. i think SCC's handling records still stand.

remember, the hotchkis celica wasn't a drag car, it kicked ass on a circuit. it lapped a second slower i think than a stock EVO VII without any power mods. race tires? put on a set of legal S-03s or other new age tire that delivers good traction. that hotchkis celica actually was only like 3-4 seconds behind per lap than a 500hp boss EVO IV. check SCC's archives for that car's runs.

the XS turbo if ever released, is great bang for the buck considering it comes with EVERYTHING including a $1200 standalone ECU. won't handle as well as a N/A celica with killer suspension but it won't be too far off. Blitz's SC is on the way too.

face it, you guys are talking about ditching the celica, only to get evo or type S, and put $3-4k into that car's engine alone. hello? that's exactly the same price you guys refuse to pay for the celica. magical performance for under a grand...yeah right.

it is too bad hotchkis sold their old celica, but i wonder what's going on with that supercharged car of theirs? maybe next time SCC (Car & Driver = bunch of ***** old men editors, throw a german into the group and it would win easily) has a shootout, someone with a celica and the TVS kit would donate their vehicle for a weekend provided SCC brings the tires? everyone's forgetting SCC liked the celica a lot, and saw a lot of what it was capable of. toyota just never donates cars, and hotchkis' car is gone. although you don't even need to do that, SCC would have to be foaming at the mouth and raving like crazy about a car's handling and put up some very very nice numbers for it to be anywhere close to the hotchkis car. what was it, 75mph slalom? 57 second lap at buttonwillow? it would have toasted that civic with Type S engine swap. or probably not because CAR & DRIVER were the guys doing the shootout and they can't drive for ****. hell, any guy in their own celica w/TVS kit plus race tires could probably BEAT a C&D driver in an EVO. that's how bad their times for cars are (straight line and laps)
SO F'N :werd: :werd: :cool: I cant belive some people are saying the Celica is slow when its DEAD EVEN with a TYPE-S, faster than a SE-R, and hangs with a Type R.
You peeps are now just looking at the EVO SRT-4 WRX STI 350Z Rx8 .... these cars are in a differant class all together!!!!
If we are considered slow then so are the RSX's!

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

You know what I miss about my celica. Man it felt like a glove. Sure the WRX moves and has handles but the feeling the Celica gave you was just amazing.

[WillyK]

Originally posted by BRAK
SO F'N :werd: :werd: :cool: I cant belive some people are saying the Celica is slow when its DEAD EVEN with a TYPE-S, faster than a SE-R, and hangs with a Type R.

Honestly, who cares about what it is stock? People who race don't leave the car stock. For what it takes to actually make a Celica fast, any of those cars could be twice as fast. The Celica is a slow car, always has been and always will be.

Everyone needs to stop being fanboys.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

:werd: Willy.

You need to understand what makes a car a car in an enthusiast pov. Aftermarket.

[t2000gts]

You know what I miss about my celica. Man it felt like a glove. Sure the WRX moves and has handles but the feeling the Celica gave you was just amazing.

:werd: it's amazingly fun. i love driving it around, and being a second (or 2) off other cars is not noticeable when it's just you driving around. the drag strip for me is only for testing and tuning the power aspect of your car, the trap speeds matter more to me than ET. whenever i do a mod, i do a run (although not anymore since it's $45 to run in NY) to compare, i should get one of those new GTechs. acceleration contests on the street are fun and all sometimes, but get old fast, so i don't go out looking for them. unless it's a car that i'd like to see move.

For what it takes to actually make a Celica fast, any of those cars could be twice as fast. The Celica is a slow car, always has been and always will be.

which cars are you talking about? (i'm assuming in the C&D comparison which is what this topic/thread is about) the S2000? the EVO? those cost thousands more to begin with.

the Civic with Type S swap...you think that was cheap?

and you always use the terms 'fast' or 'slow' in subjective ways so i really don't know what you're talking about, except the celica always comes out bad. you should get an SRT4. it's "fast".

all those cars had at least $3-$4k put into them, and the only cars which fit your real definition of fast result for cheap modification are turbo cars like the SRT4 and EVO. the hondas, 350z, rx-8 don't. and the only car that's not turboed, and a contender, is the Type S. and all the mods for that car last time i checked weren't that much more than the equivalent mods on a celica. the thing is, the parts are already out, some of which won't ever be made on a celica (like the ecu reflash). they pay out the ass for exhaust manifolds and cams from japan too. it's not cheap.

not to mention my lengthy post was about how in any kind of a handling contest, the celica did not cost more to modify, and the hotchkis example (all suspension, no engine mods) was blisteringly fast on a track. but that meant nothing to you aside from changing your description of the celica to "slow" from "not fast".

if you meant the entire time that the celica is not fast at all in a straight line, i would agree wholeheartedly. it isn't. some driver/car combos can be fast (look at guys like illusive and mirconrice...mircon had great success against other cars on the street), but the celica is not a relatively fast accelerating car with lots of power and torque. i use relative, because hitting almost 100mph in a quarter mile with a few bolt-ons is enough speed for competitive lap times at most circuits. the hotchkis car didn't even have that. it had a TRD Exhaust, and the TRD/K&N drop in filter.

a tiny little detail you neglected to mention is that most people start with bolt-ons on their cars. the celica picks up more effective power from I/H/E than any other comparable car, even the Type S which comes closest. your displeasure with the celica isn't common unless you think most people who modify their cars (a very small fraction to begin with) also modify all out pumping thousands into their car. the % might be relatively higher (but still very low in the big picture) with sports car owners, but the celica isn't that. it's a compact with sporty aspirations.

there are different kinds of driving/racing. competitive, where it's all about being faster than the next guy, and without a next guy, there is no purpose. and another is just the thrill of driving/racing in and of itself. like those car commercials. for one thing, the latter is a lot more legal on the street. i see we fall into different categories here, which is why i suggested a car like the SRT4 in the first place. i'd say go for an EVO if you had money, because i think it's absolutely fun as hell too as well as being fast. (or an STi, but that's just cuz i don't want to piss off Dark Star :chuckles: ). or if you still have a celica (i don't see why), get a company to make you custom axles built to stock spec, but stronger, very good tires, stronger clutch and a LSD, crower rods and/or pistons and throw on a 50-75 shot of nitrous. put in some weight reductions and I/H/E, and that's a 12 second car that won't break(the axles/tires/lsd will make the big difference). just take it easy on the 1->2 shift or get custom gear set and synchroes made that are tougher. people who really want to go fast don't have a problem with finding ways to get stuff like that done. you don't even need half those parts, i only put them there for reliability. imagine the look on a EVO's face when you completely roast them, or pull on a vette on the highway. that's what you want, isn't it? your kind of 'fast' means run what you 'brung' so i don't see why there should be any potential issues with the use of nitrous.

[RevHappyGTS]

Damn....I feel like nobody even sticks out for the Celica anymore...not even Celica owners. The people who bash the Celica's on this board and call it slow are the ones who own or use to own GT's or auto GT-S's do you notice? How is the Celica slow? It's at the top of the food chain when it comes to FWD N/A 4 bangers, Up there head to head with Integra Type R and RSX-S. And handles better than the RSX-S. Sure it's slow compared to the likes of turbo AWD monsters but I think it's pretty damn fast for it's class. I mean bolt on I/H/E and you're looking at low 14s and trapping over 100mph thats basically what you will get out of any Type R or RSX-S also. I'm sure there will be the few who argue, well blah blah there is an RSX-S or Type R running low 13s, they have huge aftermarket. So, do you know how much it cost them to get there? Add up the amount and you know why they started with the wrong car whether it be a Type R, RSX, or GT-S. The GT-S is nowhere inferior to any N/A FWD cars in it's class. I think the year that ruined it for us was the 2002 ECU glitch models, thats the year every mag racer tend to refer back to for godawful Celica 1/4 mile times.... Hyundai owners think their Tiburons are faster than us because of that! Call me a fanboy, call me a pride, I don't care. I love my Celica.

[BadTOYO]

yeah.. besides, it is only here, in the US, where the celica is seen as a slow car... the rest of the world always got the real motors, from the 170HP N/A 3S-GE to the 245HP turbo 3S-GTE... the 2ZZ-GE is still on top of the list when it comes to all out N/A performance, regardless of some of the ignorant comments that have been posted in this thread.
R

[RACERGTS2000]

RevHappyGTS
BadTOYO

:werd: :werd: :werd:

[crazyJ]

One day it will all make sense. Like willyk said, the car has seen better days, the celica is a great car, I take it over plenty of other FF cars, stock to stock, but when it comes to after market, well thats were other cars shine.

[carcontrol007]

isnt that the challenge? i mean you could just go and buy yourself a 40K+ car if you saved up but then you would be bitchin that you want to take out vipers and whatnot. its a different class. i know a lot of people complain that there isnt much of an aftermarket for the celica but we are a lot better off than some other cars. i wouldnt mind racing someone that thought my car was slow then burn the **** out of them. teach'em.

example. the celica GTS is at most a 25K car. well then drop 15K more into it and you have yourself a 40K car that can compete with EVO's, 350's etc. you dont even have to put in a turbo or SC to compete. if you put 15K into an N/A engine i wouldnt doubt that you could stay with if not pull on those cars. if you want to keep bitchin about your car maybe you should go trade it in cause we really dont need you all whinning about how you cant compete. makes me wonder how a lot of honda owners think they are badass with a $3K 1989 CRX or something.

[Keyshawn]

Basically, the Celica's not included in articles like this because Toyota doesn't really promote this car to aftermarket companies and to the magazines. They did a little bit when the Celi was brand-new, but stopped most of that after that first model-year. For these reasons, the Celi will always be underrated and not given as much respect as it deserves. If tuned correctly, the Celi can definitely hang with or surpass many of the cars included in this test. The white Hotchkis Celica is a prime example of that. However, don't expect Toyota OR most aftermarket companies to offer Celicas to magazines for feature stories like this.

Here's the article for those interested: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=6947

[F35-JSF]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Basically, the Celica's not included in articles like this because Toyota doesn't really promote this car to aftermarket companies and to the magazines. They did a little bit when the Celi was brand-new, but stopped most of that after that first model-year. For these reasons, the Celi will always be underrated and not given as much respect as it deserves. If tuned correctly, the Celi can definitely hang with or surpass many of the cars included in this test. The white Hotchkis Celica is a prime example of that. However, don't expect Toyota OR most aftermarket companies to offer Celicas to magazines for feature stories like this.

Here's the article for those interested: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=6947

:werd:

[WillyK]

Originally posted by t2000gts
:werd: it's amazingly fun. i love driving it around, and being a second (or 2) off other cars is not noticeable when it's just you driving around. the drag strip for me is only for testing and tuning the power aspect of your car, the trap speeds matter more to me than ET. whenever i do a mod, i do a run (although not anymore since it's $45 to run in NY) to compare, i should get one of those new GTechs. acceleration contests on the street are fun and all sometimes, but get old fast, so i don't go out looking for them. unless it's a car that i'd like to see move.



which cars are you talking about? (i'm assuming in the C&D comparison which is what this topic/thread is about) the S2000? the EVO? those cost thousands more to begin with.

the Civic with Type S swap...you think that was cheap?

and you always use the terms 'fast' or 'slow' in subjective ways so i really don't know what you're talking about, except the celica always comes out bad. you should get an SRT4. it's "fast".

all those cars had at least $3-$4k put into them, and the only cars which fit your real definition of fast result for cheap modification are turbo cars like the SRT4 and EVO. the hondas, 350z, rx-8 don't. and the only car that's not turboed, and a contender, is the Type S. and all the mods for that car last time i checked weren't that much more than the equivalent mods on a celica. the thing is, the parts are already out, some of which won't ever be made on a celica (like the ecu reflash). they pay out the ass for exhaust manifolds and cams from japan too. it's not cheap.

not to mention my lengthy post was about how in any kind of a handling contest, the celica did not cost more to modify, and the hotchkis example (all suspension, no engine mods) was blisteringly fast on a track. but that meant nothing to you aside from changing your description of the celica to "slow" from "not fast".

if you meant the entire time that the celica is not fast at all in a straight line, i would agree wholeheartedly. it isn't. some driver/car combos can be fast (look at guys like illusive and mirconrice...mircon had great success against other cars on the street), but the celica is not a relatively fast accelerating car with lots of power and torque. i use relative, because hitting almost 100mph in a quarter mile with a few bolt-ons is enough speed for competitive lap times at most circuits. the hotchkis car didn't even have that. it had a TRD Exhaust, and the TRD/K&N drop in filter.

a tiny little detail you neglected to mention is that most people start with bolt-ons on their cars. the celica picks up more effective power from I/H/E than any other comparable car, even the Type S which comes closest. your displeasure with the celica isn't common unless you think most people who modify their cars (a very small fraction to begin with) also modify all out pumping thousands into their car. the % might be relatively higher (but still very low in the big picture) with sports car owners, but the celica isn't that. it's a compact with sporty aspirations.

there are different kinds of driving/racing. competitive, where it's all about being faster than the next guy, and without a next guy, there is no purpose. and another is just the thrill of driving/racing in and of itself. like those car commercials. for one thing, the latter is a lot more legal on the street. i see we fall into different categories here, which is why i suggested a car like the SRT4 in the first place. i'd say go for an EVO if you had money, because i think it's absolutely fun as hell too as well as being fast. (or an STi, but that's just cuz i don't want to piss off Dark Star :chuckles: ). or if you still have a celica (i don't see why), get a company to make you custom axles built to stock spec, but stronger, very good tires, stronger clutch and a LSD, crower rods and/or pistons and throw on a 50-75 shot of nitrous. put in some weight reductions and I/H/E, and that's a 12 second car that won't break(the axles/tires/lsd will make the big difference). just take it easy on the 1->2 shift or get custom gear set and synchroes made that are tougher. people who really want to go fast don't have a problem with finding ways to get stuff like that done. you don't even need half those parts, i only put them there for reliability. imagine the look on a EVO's face when you completely roast them, or pull on a vette on the highway. that's what you want, isn't it? your kind of 'fast' means run what you 'brung' so i don't see why there should be any potential issues with the use of nitrous.

There is no way in hell I'm going to read all that blather, but I noticed yours and everybody's mention of the Hotchkis Celica. Big deal, do any of you honestly think that they couldn't make a TVS for the RSX and have it handle as good, if not better than the Celica.

As for the stuff about it running low 14's and trapping around 100mph, just because a handful of people (if that many) have pulled those numbers, don't go around thinking they all will. I see that mentality on every message board for every car. They take the fastest time and use it as fact for all of them.

I still like my car, I despise it everytime it breaks which is far too often but oh well. But everytime I see people bitch and cry that it's not in some mag comparison test, there is a simple reason....it doesn't deserve to be there.

I say again, you people need to drop the Fanboy attitude and quit pretending the Celica is great...it's not.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by WillyK
There is no way in hell I'm going to read all that blather, but I noticed yours and everybody's mention of the Hotchkis Celica. Big deal, do any of you honestly think that they couldn't make a TVS for the RSX and have it handle as good, if not better than the Celica.

hotchkis does make a TVS for the RSX. SCC tests those cars (i don't know if they have hotchkis stuff on them) all the time. the celica's records still stand...

As for the stuff about it running low 14's and trapping around 100mph, just because a handful of people (if that many) have pulled those numbers, don't go around thinking they all will. I see that mentality on every message board for every car. They take the fastest time and use it as fact for all of them.

that's why i was vague and said 'almost'. low-mid 14s is NOT rare anymore. i've been posting here for 3 years now. i remember when larry, racinjason, and icyjaws posted their first low 14 second passes. by contrast, with 13,000 members you'll read about such runs every week in racing forum (probably less so during summer, but even then)

trapping high 90s is even less rare.

But everytime I see people bitch and cry that it's not in some mag comparison test, there is a simple reason....it doesn't deserve to be there.

well i, and from the posts in this thread most other people here, don't agree with you that it doesn't "deserve" to be there. very unscientific way of analyzing a car's abilities. i guess you like YOUR car parked in your garage/driveway, but don't like celicas, because you talk down about them whenever it's even compared to like a civic.

I say again, you people need to drop the Fanboy attitude and quit pretending the Celica is great...it's not.

who said it was great? you're using all these words subjectively again. whatever you think of your car is fine, but arguing about how a celica doesn't stack up to any of the cars in it's class and in that shootout isn't going to get you far. ignore my posts and there's still a zillion people restating what i've said with plenty of evidence, who don't rely on stuff like "can't hang", "not fast", "slow", "doesn't deserve", etc.

the direct reason the celica wasn't involved was stated perfectly by Keyshawn.

[RACERGTS2000]

Hotchkis has made a TVS system for the RSX and until I see SCC or another mag test it and beat the records the Celica holds, the Celica is a better handling car hands down. I mean that Celica holds those records by large margins not by decimals ( someone earlier said the slalom speed was like 75 but if I remember correctly it was more like 77. Also, I have 3 friends with RSXs that say it themself "the Celica handles better." By the way WILLYK what the hell do you drive??????

[WillyK]

Originally posted by RACERGTS2000
By the way WILLYK what the hell do you drive??????

A GTS 6 speed with a lot more mods than you have.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by WillyK
There is no way in hell I'm going to read all that blather, but I noticed yours and everybody's mention of the Hotchkis Celica. Big deal, do any of you honestly think that they couldn't make a TVS for the RSX and have it handle as good, if not better than the Celica.

As for the stuff about it running low 14's and trapping around 100mph, just because a handful of people (if that many) have pulled those numbers, don't go around thinking they all will. I see that mentality on every message board for every car. They take the fastest time and use it as fact for all of them.

I still like my car, I despise it everytime it breaks which is far too often but oh well. But everytime I see people bitch and cry that it's not in some mag comparison test, there is a simple reason....it doesn't deserve to be there.

I say again, you people need to drop the Fanboy attitude and quit pretending the Celica is great...it's not.

I totally agree with your second paragraph about 1/4 mile times and message board biases. And I do agree that it's completely ridiculous to think the Celi is the greatest and all its competitors are crap. However, I do think the Celica is still a good car. A properly modded Celi can certainly compete with the modded Focuses, Civics, RSX's, and Neons (non-SRT) included in that particular article.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by RACERGTS2000
Hotchkis has made a TVS system for the RSX and until I see SCC or another mag test it and beat the records the Celica holds...

I'd definitely like to see SCC take Hotchkis' RSX to the same track and see how it compares to the white Hotchkis Celica. The results of that would be very interesting.

[WillyK]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
A properly modded Celi can certainly compete with the modded Focuses, Civics, RSX's, and Neons (non-SRT) included in that particular article.

I'll respond to you since I don't have to spend half my day reading an insanely long post. :)

It's true it can compete with those, depending on where it's competing. If it's a roadcourse then it will definately hold it's own. If it's a 1/4 track, we all know that it can't. Big whoop that the car can do low 14's, any of those cars you can put into the 13's and lower.

[yuloose]

Originally posted by larryd
I dont think I would have wanted to see the Hotchkis Celica in there anyway because those cars ran pathetic times out there and really made 4 bangers look sad.

I seriously dont think it was the cars fault though, the people at C&D really need to learn how to drive.

:werd: I think they had one driver for the entire event. The guy has to drive an evo, then hop in an S2000. That has to be a tough task. shoulda let each team bring its own driver.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by WillyK
I'll respond to you since I don't have to spend half my day reading an insanely long post. :)

It's true it can compete with those, depending on where it's competing. If it's a roadcourse then it will definately hold it's own. If it's a 1/4 track, we all know that it can't. Big whoop that the car can do low 14's, any of those cars you can put into the 13's and lower.

hold it's own?

every review of new cars has the celica with a clear road course advantage over the RSX, Focus, Civic and Neon (the SRT4 would probably have the best chance because of it's power and if a very good driver were at the wheel). with full suspension mods, the difference doesn't change much except push the RSX and Celica away from the others. unless all the mags are dumb, and you know how the celica can't handle for **** with a suspension and the other cars can. :wtf: who else do you know who can compare all these cars?

i've also said this about 1000x in this thread. if it's the 1/4 track which is important to you, the celica is the worst car in the world. have you looked at an SRT4, honestly? the dodge dealers here are real friendly and have good deals, you can get great value for the celica on a trade-in for one too. toyota's good for something.

[RACERGTS2000]

WillyK
But whos the better driver????? Im not asking you to list the mods I could care less. By the way my sigs not updated. I would love to race you since your not that far at maybe VIR or a Dragstrip (personally Id rather it be a race course). And why do you hate your car so much??? Why dont you just get a different one since your not happy with it. And get something more to your taste.

[t2000gts]

btw, cehck out racing forum for the vid of the SRT4 taking out an EVO with a bad driver. this is about as good as the average EVO driver on the street is. the car is not rare, i see plenty here in NY by people who like the reputation and look on other people's faces when they're seen in it. a well driven modded GTS might even keep up with such a combination, but there's proof right there the SRT4 is competition for average WRX/EVO on the street.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by WillyK
I'll respond to you since I don't have to spend half my day reading an insanely long post. :)

It's true it can compete with those, depending on where it's competing. If it's a roadcourse then it will definately hold it's own. If it's a 1/4 track, we all know that it can't. Big whoop that the car can do low 14's, any of those cars you can put into the 13's and lower.

Some of the cars included in the article are modded FWD cars (Civics, RSXs, Focuses, and Neons) which a similarly modded Celica can compete with in the 1/4 mile.

[gtsxr]

Originally posted by yuloose
:werd: I think they had one driver for the entire event. The guy has to drive an evo, then hop in an S2000. That has to be a tough task. shoulda let each team bring its own driver.

They did let each tuner bring there own driver, read paragraph 2 on pages 1 and 2. C&D only drove if a driver was not provided.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by larryd
I dont think I would have wanted to see the Hotchkis Celica in there anyway because those cars ran pathetic times out there and really made 4 bangers look sad.

I seriously dont think it was the cars fault though, the people at C&D really need to learn how to drive.

Originally posted by gtsxr
They did let each tuner bring there own driver, read paragraph 2 on pages 1 and 2. C&D only drove if a driver was not provided.

Regardless of the driver, the times were slow. Notice where the test took place. Once again, one of the slow So Cal tracks rears its ugly head.

[David Draper]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Regardless of the driver, the times were slow. Notice where the test took place. Once again, one of the slow So Cal tracks rears its ugly head.

:werd: It seems to me that the turbo RSX was over 300hp, yet only produced a 15.3, but it was at 105 mph, so the trap was high, but the time was weak: equivalent to a stock GT-S.

Obviously, traction was an issue, although there was a Civic that had a slower trap speed than it's top speed in the 1/4 mile due to 'an extremely long shift'. Dude....that's terrible.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Top WRX drivers are running mid 13's at LACR and then bumpin up to 12's at SAC Town.

[t2000gts]

wow 15s...i guess traction was an issue too. 105mph sounds about right for horrible conditions. a GTS w/50 shot (so probably a Type S too) can trap that or close to that in good conditions.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Oo DaRk StAr oO
Top WRX drivers are running mid 13's at LACR and then bumpin up to 12's at SAC Town.

Yup, I bet those same WRX guys running mid-13's at LACR would be deep into the 12's at places like E-town and Maple Grove on the East Coast.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Yup, I bet those same WRX guys running mid-13's at LACR would be deep into the 12's at places like E-town and Maple Grove on the East Coast.

e-town has nothing on my local track here in NY, it's in the hamptons, practically on the water. first official drag strip in the US too is what they say. looks like it. $45 to run...damn NY prices :mad:

my auto gts was trapping high 80s there in the winter with an intake :rofl:

[WillyK]

Originally posted by t2000gts
hold it's own?

every review of new cars has the celica with a clear road course advantage over the RSX, Focus, Civic and Neon (the SRT4 would probably have the best chance because of it's power and if a very good driver were at the wheel). with full suspension mods, the difference doesn't change much except push the RSX and Celica away from the others. unless all the mags are dumb, and you know how the celica can't handle for **** with a suspension and the other cars can. :wtf: who else do you know who can compare all these cars?

i've also said this about 1000x in this thread. if it's the 1/4 track which is important to you, the celica is the worst car in the world. have you looked at an SRT4, honestly? the dodge dealers here are real friendly and have good deals, you can get great value for the celica on a trade-in for one too. toyota's good for something.

Meh, I'm not even going to bother with your posts anymore. We both make valid points here and there, although from reading other posts of yours you are one of those people that just keeps running their mouths to try and prove a point. I'll end it here, you are right and always are. Happy?

Originally posted by RACERGTS2000
WillyK
But whos the better driver????? Im not asking you to list the mods I could care less. By the way my sigs not updated. I would love to race you since your not that far at maybe VIR or a Dragstrip (personally Id rather it be a race course). And why do you hate your car so much??? Why dont you just get a different one since your not happy with it. And get something more to your taste.

Good question, I'm not much of a racer. All the mods I've done on the car are to attempt to make it more driveable and a little more fun. As far as why I hate it, because it's a pos. I've never had a car with so many dumb problems, I think definately that the transmission is what I despise on it the most. Unfortunately I can't sell it either because I don't feel like taking a loss on it.

Originally posted by Keyshawn
Some of the cars included in the article are modded FWD cars (Civics, RSXs, Focuses, and Neons) which a similarly modded Celica can compete with in the 1/4 mile.

Honestly though, who races cars that are "similarly modded" That goes back to my point of nobody really cares what two cars run stock to stock since in most cases they aren't stock if they are racing.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by WillyK
Meh, I'm not even going to bother with your posts anymore. We both make valid points here and there, although from reading other posts of yours you are one of those people that just keeps running their mouths to try and prove a point. I'll end it here, you are right and always are. Happy?

yeah :)

if i decide to bother, i only keep talking until point's proved, or disproved.

[WillyK]

Originally posted by t2000gts
if i decide to bother, i only keep talking until point's proved, or disproved.

Stop bothering foo! :fawk:

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by WillyK
Honestly though, who races cars that are "similarly modded" That goes back to my point of nobody really cares what two cars run stock to stock since in most cases they aren't stock if they are racing.

Originally posted by WillyK
Honestly, who cares about what it is stock? People who race don't leave the car stock. For what it takes to actually make a Celica fast, any of those cars could be twice as fast...

So if nobody races cars that are modded or stock, what does that leave? All the cars in that article are modded to some degree. It would've been completely legit to include a modded street Celica like the white Hotchkis car in the mix. It would've even been legit have the Hotchkis Celica with an XS turbo kit installed included that test, since some of those cars were HEAVILY modded with tens of thousands of dollars put into them. So you're saying that the Hotchkis Celi wouldn't be able to compete with ANY of those cars? I disagree.

Also, you mention that it takes much more money to make the Celica as fast as ANY of the cars in that comparison. It doesn't seem like you read the article. Yes, your point may be true for the WRX and EVOs featured, but there are other FWD cars like the Focus, Civic, etc. that need just as much or even more money invested in them to be fast.

[Oo DaRk StAr oO]

Very good point Keyshawn.

I have spent under 25g's to get my car into the low 13's including the car.

You can get a hatch with a good b16 not some bootleg POS four around 12-15g's plus a turbo, headwork, pistons, wheels, blah blah blah for around 22-30g's.

[SlasherX]

the SRT-4 steals a lot of the celica's thunder, IMO. it's FWD, handles and brakes very well in C&D, and R&T testing, runs low 14's at 100 stock, has mopar making upgrades for the car that are covered by dodge warranty, doesn't have any issues with misshifts, or lift bolts, and comes with a turbo stock.

granted, it's an upgraded neon, but neons have been tearing up autox's for years. did i also mention that it costs 5k less than the gt-s?

for performance junkies, its a no brainer.

now i know what i'm going to hear in reply:

"but its a neon and its ugly"
"its an unreliable pos"
"it doesnt look as good"

quite simply if looks mean that much to ya, you deserve the gt-s.

[EuGeNiLe GTS]

1 First Generation DSM : $2,000
1 BR580 turbo - This turbo is proven to 575AWHP : $995.00
BR580
1 2g Exhaust Manifold - $190.00
1 set of RC 660cc Injectors - $350.00
1 Denso Supra TT Fuel Pump - $200.00
1 Apexi Super AFC II - $320.00
1 LS1 MAF and MAFT translator - $300.00
1 ACT 2900 Clutch - $330.00
1 Spearco 2-216 race intercooler kit - $1200.00
1 Autometer Sport Comp boost gauge - $40.00
1 Autometer Sport Comp Pyrometer Gauge - $120.00
1 set of HKS 272 / 272 Cams - $540.00
1 Blitz BOV - $199.99
1 Mitsubishi Metal Head Gasket- $125.00
1 ARP head Stud kit - $90.00
1 Liquid filled Summit Fuel Pressure Gauge - $25.00

This brings my total including the car to 6,884.00. Want to know how this will perform? well Bushur Racing has tuned that turbo setup to 575 awhp, enough to power an average driver into the 10s. A good driver will rip low 10 or maybe faster. Lets throw in timing belt, water pump and timing belt tensioner pulleys, along with the auto tensioner, just to make sure our 1g is running in tip top shape. Lets also not say that Im making THAT much power.. i.e. 575. high 400 hp in a 1g should net you a 130mph trap, more than enough to run high 10s. Before you start with my suspension, as long as its not blown, im okay with that.. Brent Rau ran a 9.7 with stock 2g suspension. I havent included labor on this stuff, but so far nobody has.

Want to see proof? our project Talon has the SAME exact mods,
( minus the race rims and race seat ) only we've spent quite a bit less than my list here ( we get wholesale prices ) Heres the link to our car, which is due to run shortly.

Project Talon

What I would do that doesnt cost any money :

drop the rear bumper support - 45 lbs
drop the front bumper support - 35 lbs
remove spare tire and jack - 35 lbs
remove charcoal canister, evap system, misc smog **** - 22 lbs
drop my exhaust system after the 02 - 45 lbs


haha.. dsms fugkin own..

that is if they dont break =x

[Keyshawn]

The SRT-4 and old-school turbocharged Eclipse definitely kick a$$. Much respect to both of 'em. However, what do either of these cars have to do with the article in question?

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=6947

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by SlasherX
the SRT-4 steals a lot of the celica's thunder, IMO. it's FWD, handles and brakes very well in C&D, and R&T testing, runs low 14's at 100 stock, has mopar making upgrades for the car that are covered by dodge warranty, doesn't have any issues with misshifts, or lift bolts, and comes with a turbo stock.

granted, it's an upgraded neon, but neons have been tearing up autox's for years. did i also mention that it costs 5k less than the gt-s?

for performance junkies, its a no brainer.

now i know what i'm going to hear in reply:

"but its a neon and its ugly"
"its an unreliable pos"
"it doesnt look as good"

quite simply if looks mean that much to ya, you deserve the gt-s.

i'm a fan of the SRT4 and i've driven one, but i think the handling is overrated. it seems slightly more stiff than a normal neon. i wouldn't put it anywhere near the feeling you get in a celica.

i have seen what they can do in autocross, but the SRT4 seems different to me. i'm pretty sure it would get toasted by a normal neon with equal drivers. FWD + no LSD + lots of torque + autox = trouble.

if i had to describe the handling in one word, it would be 'adequate'. could use a lot of work and then i think it would kick ass on the track.

braking is decent too, but if you compare it to the gts...well as long as you don't compare the SRT4 to a celica, the handling/braking/looks are above average and compliment the rest of it (great power) very well. i personally think it looks hot in black or silver. the rear end should've gone through a redesign though.

[t2000gts]

btw, i think the neon should've been AWD and competed with STi/EVO....i still do a double take when i see 'SRT4' because the '4' makes me think of 4WD or something.

[SlasherX]

Originally posted by Keyshawn
The SRT-4 and old-school turbocharged Eclipse definitely kick a$$. Much respect to both of 'em. However, what do either of these cars have to do with the article in question?

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=6947

my reply was more geared towards the people who were going "why isn't the celica in there?!!?"

[SlasherX]

Originally posted by t2000gts
i'm a fan of the SRT4 and i've driven one, but i think the handling is overrated. it seems slightly more stiff than a normal neon. i wouldn't put it anywhere near the feeling you get in a celica.

i have seen what they can do in autocross, but the SRT4 seems different to me. i'm pretty sure it would get toasted by a normal neon with equal drivers. FWD + no LSD + lots of torque + autox = trouble.

if i had to describe the handling in one word, it would be 'adequate'. could use a lot of work and then i think it would kick ass on the track.

braking is decent too, but if you compare it to the gts...well as long as you don't compare the SRT4 to a celica, the handling/braking/looks are above average and compliment the rest of it (great power) very well. i personally think it looks hot in black or silver. the rear end should've gone through a redesign though.

while i agree that the gt-s would trump a srt-4 stock for stock in handling and braking, i don't feel that this discounts the ability of the srt-4 to a point where the srt-4 is made to be less of a performance bargain. IE for $5k less you ARE getting the better performance car.

[SlasherX]

Originally posted by EuGeNiLe GTS
haha.. dsms fugkin own..

that is if they dont break =x

I don't think that list is complete. Where are the engine internals to hold that amount of whp? Also, why is it running a 2900 clutch when a 2600 would suffice? Why is it running a Blitz BOv, when a 1g DSM BOV with appropriate work would be the much more cost effective solution? Why is it running 272 on the intake side, which limits the cars powerband to much higher rpm's that the stock bottom end is not built for? where is the external wastegate setup? not to mention you would need a 4 bolt rear end, and tranny work to hold that power.

etc. etc.

DSM's own, but not for that cheap.

[Toy4War]

Anyways I think the Celica won't be featured in any magazine until some of us have our cars heavily modded and turbo'd, which will be a couple of months imho

[All_MTR_GTS]

for what it is worth, calling the celica a slow car is bs because the few owners who do get low 14's with there celicas are just as many who are in type s and type r's are hitting low 14's same mods ofcourse. my point being is for what the car is its great and im happy with my purchase!

[BadTOYO]

Originally posted by SlasherX
for $5k less you ARE getting the better performance car.
only if you take straight line acceleration as the only variable in measuring performance...
R

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by BadTOYO
only if you take straight line acceleration as the only variable in measuring performance...
R

I've read the SRT4's braking is in Celica territory also.

[m0rgue]

bottom line is that the grass will always be greener on the other side. :)

[Chui]

Originally posted by WillyK
Face it people, the Celica is old news and it's not fast. It handles well, but that's about it. It does not deserve to be in all these mag lists and competitions, it just can't hang anymore.

It never really did, Willy. Yes, it handles well, but it never dominated the on track comparisons; it was overshadowed by the ITR. Perhaps it was just poor timing, but it has passed it's auto rag zenith. Doesn't take anything away from the vehicle, however.

[Chui]

Just looking at numbers the SRT-4 would beat both the GT-S and ITR (and any other sport compact car) on a road course.

[t2000gts]

Originally posted by Chui
Just looking at numbers the SRT-4 would beat both the GT-S and ITR (and any other sport compact car) on a road course.

stock for stock, you're probably right for most road courses. power does go a long way.

and i think the GTS was overshadowed by the Type R only becaus the GTS was that good....remember how we keep saying it was really meant to beat the GSR? the GTS is still king of that class of car as far as overall performance goes. it trounced the GSR, and trails the RSX Type S only slightly in straightline speed. it's just that the Type Rs are not that same class of car (not mass produced), and overall, FWD track cars with low weight, good handling, light high revving engine with low displacement and more horsepower is a class of car that's no longer the most popular class....probably least if you look at AWD/Turbo cars or just Turbo/FWD cars (SRT4/mazdaspeedprotege) or RWD sports cars (350Z/RX-8).

Honda's aftermarket transcends the entire 'class' thing though. you can race a Honda in anything with enough cash and work.

[Keyshawn]

Originally posted by Chui
It never really did, Willy. Yes, it handles well, but it never dominated the on track comparisons; it was overshadowed by the ITR. Perhaps it was just poor timing, but it has passed it's auto rag zenith. Doesn't take anything away from the vehicle, however.

Yeah, even in its heyday, the 7th gen Celi never dominated FWD n/a performance, especially with the ITR around. Honestly, I don't think it was ever their intention to dominate that class. Toyota has the resources and money to make cars that dominate their classes, but they usually take the conservative approach by releasing cars that keep up with or are slightly better than their competitors (like the MR-2 was to the Miata, the Celica was to the GSR, the new Solara Coupe is to the Accord Coupe, etc.).