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TVS supercharger

28K views 251 replies 36 participants last post by  the ronin 
#1 ·
Hi, im new here and heard that the lotus guys have been using the new TVS supercharger and was wondering if anyone has tried one and if theres a kit for a celicas or if u could just buy the TVS charger from the lotus guys and be a direct bolt on? sorry if im being a newb. i tried doing a search and couldnt find much. thanks
 
#180 ·
This seems to be a fine thread to jump in on :eek:

So, let me get this straight, Phil. The TVS supercharger creates more power than the MP62 - with lower temperatures, right? This is dyno proven as per your thread over at LT - lets call it a fact.

What however bothers me is (probably something along the same lines as what bothers Ronin (?)) - the cooled MP62 actually decreasing in charge temp toward the end of the pull versus the non-cooled TVS increasing in charge temp. So - this is happening during a 10 second run on the dyno.

When on a track and during long and hard driving, the TVS would still increase temps, however the MP62 will keep consistent temps due to it being cooled. So after 15 minutes on a track, you'll be at 200 degree charge temp making ~240 ish hp on the MP62? And on the TVS after giving it the same heat soak treatment (or worse)? 240? 210?

If I, as a tuner (I've have completed courses at both Autronic and Haltech and have probably tuned in excess of 100 cars in my life) were to interpret the information you've posted over at LT I would say that:
- the conditions were different and favouring the TVS (-4 degree intake temp)
- the MP62 dyno run was done with the charger already soaked, probably a secondary or third pull in a short while
- not both runs where at 10psi - they were, at multiple points, as far as ~2psi apart from each other. If you're producing about 100hp ekstra through boost on the TVS, that would indicate that each 1psi of pressure (at same charge temp) roughly equals out to ~10hp. 2psi apart equals 20bhp - that certainly eats the majority of the ~30hp difference in dynod power.

What does bother me the most though is that the MP62 doesnt normally run charge temps above 190 in my friends car - as far as I can see from the datalogs its actually never touched 200... So with the same charge temps and boost equalled out - will the TVS _really_ make that much more power and be such a "revolution" as you present it to be? I, for one, doesnt believe that - from all I've read and seen its an average, decent supercharger, nothing more, nothing less.

I'd probably go for the TVS myself if I were to supercharge a 2ZZ, but it wouldn't be because of you trying to sell me a rock as being gold, it would be because I was actually looking to buy a rock... The TVS is good, but it aint gold and well - unless you actually do some _real_ research and provide decent facts and theoretically backed up science proving it to be gold then my guess would be that Ronin will be there to piss all over you, every time you post anything trying to present the TVS as gold.
 
#182 ·
Actually, much of what you posted is incorrect.

First, The M62 does NOT cool down as the pull goes. Intercoolers do NOT get more efficient as the pull goes on and the M62 continues to get more INEFFICIENT as the pulls goes, which increases the heat whether it's IC'ed or not.... Further inefficient and further off the compressor map...

Second, compare apples to apples. What MOST have easily available to them is a non-intercooled version oft he TVS and a non-intercooled version of the M62. Again, Most... If you've done much boosting with those two blowers without an IC, you'll know that the delta T of the M62 at 7ish psi on the 2zz is about 120F. At 10 psi it's around 170 or greater depending on the engine. The TVS is 100F at 10 psi. That's fully "heat soaked"...

Third. Real testing? OK, I've got 40 some odd dyno pulls on the M62 at varying boosts from 7psi to 10psi. I've got a few thousand track miles on that blower and much of it data logged with redundant sensors on a DL-1. I also have a few thousand street miles on it and have data logged those conditions at times. That's just on my car and not including clients' cars... I'm quite familiar with the non IC'ed M62.

Furthermore, I've got about a 1,000 track miles on the TVS. I have about 35 dynojet pulls on it (just my car, and not including clients' cars) and I have several continuous hours with the TVS on a mustang load sustaining dyno (again, just my car). Much of that time is data logged. Some of those track miles were at 100+ ambient temps. I'm equally, if not more familiar with the TVS. You, sir are not, and that's evident in the numbers you posted. No flame intended, just stating the facts.

Go back and read through my posts. You'll get your numbers updated and will avoid this confusion. The FACT is that the only way you can pull off 10psi and make sustainable power on the M62 is to intercool it, as the blower is hellishly inefficient at that level of airflow on the 2ZZ. If you have the means to IC the M62, then go for it.

A ~50% efficient IC on the M62 pushing 10psi pre IC, will yield about the same power as NON IC'ed TVS at 10psi. That is a reality that exists and has been tested on the Lotus...

Of course, if you're going to go through the expense to IC the M62, it would only make sense to put a real blower like the TVS in front of the IC:wiggle:


Below are pics from a multiple hours on a mustang. Last pull of the day with red hot headers on 91octane fuel: 285whp... Darn heat soak.LOL





TP
 
#184 · (Edited)
Actually, much of what you posted is incorrect.

First, The M62 does NOT cool down as the pull goes. Intercoolers do NOT get more efficient as the pull goes on and the M62 continues to get more INEFFICIENT as the pulls goes, which increases the heat whether it's IC'ed or not.... Further inefficient and further off the compressor map...

Second, compare apples to apples. What MOST have easily available to them is a non-intercooled version oft he TVS and a non-intercooled version of the M62. Again, Most... If you've done much boosting with those two blowers without an IC, you'll know that the delta T of the M62 at 7ish psi on the 2zz is about 120F. At 10 psi it's around 170 or greater depending on the engine. The TVS is 100F at 10 psi. That's fully "heat soaked"...

Third. Real testing? OK, I've got 40 some odd dyno pulls on the M62 at varying boosts from 7psi to 10psi. I've got a few thousand track miles on that blower and much of it data logged with redundant sensors on a DL-1. I also have a few thousand street miles on it and have data logged those conditions at times. That's just on my car and not including clients' cars... I'm quite familiar with the non IC'ed M62.

Furthermore, I've got about a 1,000 track miles on the TVS. I have about 35 dynojet pulls on it (just my car, and not including clients' cars) and I have several continuous hours with the TVS on a mustang load sustaining dyno (again, just my car). Much of that time is data logged. Some of those track miles were at 100+ ambient temps. I'm equally, if not more familiar with the TVS. You, sir are not, and that's evident in the numbers you posted. No flame intended, just stating the facts.

Go back and read through my posts. You'll get your numbers updated and will avoid this confusion. The FACT is that the only way you can pull off 10psi and make sustainable power on the M62 is to intercool it, as the blower is hellishly inefficient at that level of airflow on the 2ZZ. If you have the means to IC the M62, then go for it.

A ~50% efficient IC on the M62 pushing 10psi pre IC, will yield about the same power as NON IC'ed TVS at 10psi. That is a reality that exists and has been tested on the Lotus...

Of course, if you're going to go through the expense to IC the M62, it would only make sense to put a real blower like the TVS in front of the IC:wiggle:


Below are pics from a multiple hours on a mustang. Last pull of the day with red hot headers on 91octane fuel: 285whp... Darn heat soak.LOL




TP
You nurse/Phil are so full of poo poo your eyes are brown :gap:
A thousand track miles since November last year.....:AF: Testin and tunin while it's below freezing is bullshiet as are is your data......your data is so screwed it's a fucckin joke as are you......Nice tunin with a overly rich decel, :fawk:

Sure the 1320 TVS is a better blower than the MP62 on a 3 ltr. engine....

So where's the temp data while it's 100*f ambient..:fawk: and why not dyno data it when it's 100*f ambient..:fawk:

What the hell do you know about unsustainable power with a MP62 you have no data to back any of your crap..... You don't know the discharge temps at 10psi. with 100*f ambient......you just spout crap, Delta T this nurse/Phil

Where do you get a 50% intercooler crap from where and when did you do any testing to come up with these numbers first hand...you never had an intercooler.... You know squat ass wipe...

You nurse/Phil are the real blower....:fawk:
 
#191 ·
Yeah laugh on this nurse/Phil......

quote monkeytuner:
Re: TVS blower the future ?
by darksol on Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:57 pm

We'll find out in about 18 hours just how well she does...

I'm off to Phil's in the wee hours of the morning to be his "driver" while he does all the laptop EFI "tuning + tweaking"...

We'll drive around for a couple hours adjusting **** and then head off to the DynoJet for a set of "base runs"... Only problem with that is that it's going to be freakin' 37-48 degrees cold tomorrow...brrr! What the hell happened to FALL?

You guys gotta see the crap this clown is tryin to sell ya by now, by the way it was 27*f in the morning...:AF:
 
#193 ·
it'd be interesting to go through this entire thread and count the total of the three favorite words ronin says: nurse/phil, crap,and bs...
 
#195 ·
hehe... I wish I could control the weather. The midwest has got to be the most volatile place for weather on the planet. 70 degrees one day and the next 20 degrees... no kidding- It swings that much in the winter months...

Frank, being the master at deception and word salad posted the date I FIRST was on the dyno above in November. The mustang run I mentioned and pictured above was in February. That day happened to be nice day in the 60s or low 70s as I recall... It's all irrelevant though, as both the Mustang and the D-Jet are in climate controlled shops... furthermore, we've already had triple digit track days this year:( The "testing" has been done. The technology works very well- even in a non-IC'ed setup... up to about 10 psi... Recall: "Below are pics from a multiple hours on a mustang. Last pull of the day with red hot headers on 91octane fuel: 285whp."

Interestingly enough, I have tried pushing the boost further and wasn't able to produce enough additional horsepower to offset the loss in efficiency. It needs an IC or water injection to run more than 10ish psi boost... Just as the M62 to run more than about 6-7psi... The nice thing is that 10ish psi on the M62 (non-IC'ed) is about 235-245whp and will heat soak down to about 235whp- the M62 is running very hot at that boost. 10ish psi on the TVS (non-ICed) will heat soak and plateau at about 280whp (dyno jet numbers). Both with a decent 91 octane tune...

Guh-Day,

Phil
 
#199 ·
Frank, you're such a child...

First, I don't have video of that dyno day. I only had my SLR there for snap shots. I don't carry that silly thing everywhere I go like you do. Get a life.

Second, it was climate controlled and it was actually quite warm in the dyno room despite having an open door. Remember there was a car running for hours heating up the space on top of being climate controlled.

Third, it was the day before and in the middle of the afternoon. The airport temps according to your site shows temps temp of 52 that day. The airport is an hour north of town and is usually within 10 degrees of the temps in town. It was damn nice day, I do remember that. Was wearing a short sleeved "BOE" t-shirt for the record. Darksol was there and can support that the dyno room was mid 70s just as you would expect inside...

Fourth: Intake temps were well into the 90s the most of the time. I know this because I have redundant temp sensors that tell me this:). Do you see a fan blowing cold air onto the intake in those pics? My intake sucks air straight from the engine compartment when it's just sitting there. There's no shrouding separating it from the hot engine air...

Fifth: I don't even have a TVS product to sell the celica community and you're trying to sabotage everything I post for your own personal agenda. I've posted more technical information about this setup than anyone ever has about a FI setup on a 2ZZ. More than you, more than VF, Sector, BWR, MWR, etc... Go question their findings... and for what?

I've posted charge temps, dyno plots, track experience, road experience, data logs, etc... And you're not even a potential user of the TVS-- whether through me or your own devices. Your M.O. is clear. It's personal slander, misleading, and NOT constructive. If it's not that, you're just really stupid... perhaps both???

"The Ronin" drivel... It's like arguing with a 3 year old in deperate need of a nap... LOL

TP
 
#201 · (Edited)
:blah::blah::blah::blah::blah: yeah right it was cooler wher you were :fawk:
http://www.almanac.com/weatherhisto...xt&day=14&month=02&year=2009&searchtype=place

a climate controled enviroment all right just let an early winter in when you tune with the shop door open...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKsj7i4t13k&feature=player_embedded

You've posted more technical misinformation that's the problem nurse/Phil it's pure BS to sell your kit and yourself to guys that don't know better..

Yeah so the ambient intake temps were in the 90's :AF: now how is that possable while it's in the 30's-40's, :fawk: I can't believe this crap...

You are a fucckin joke nurse/Phil
 
#207 ·
Hey I remember that waaaay back at the beginning of this thread I was guestimating what my car would do with the TVS installed...

Well now I know:



Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p5NaYi_4Zg&feature=player_embedded

Best times / trap speeds:
60': 1.733
330': 4.999
660': 7.648 @ 92.44 mph
1000': 9.923
1320': 11.830 @ 117.69 mph <- on a 12.265 timeslip

Just thought I'd share that I nailed a couple of 11.8's... one was holding 115.94 mph in 4th at 8200rpm (redline) through the last 100' to the traps and the other I actually shifted to 5th and got another 1.75 mph out of it.

Datalogs indicate a nice smooth 0.72 sec shift from gear to gear. Shallow staging on 225/45-17" General Exclaim UHP (long-lasting) street tires. Enough of this driving through a set of Yoko A048's every 4000 miles!

Anyway not too far off my original estimate - but shifting to 5th really was weird though... never had to do that before.
 
#209 ·
Yeah RWD with 60% of the weight over your butt really helps - plus I shallow stage to the max and the track uses a bunch of VHT but yeah I average 1.7 - 1.9 60' times with these tires. I pulled a 1.64 when the car was bone stock on the new Yoko A048's back in 2005!
 
#210 ·
In other words, irrelevant to this forum.


and Phil, even if your engine bay is 90+ degrees, a properly setup dyno has a HUGE cooling fan blowing on the front of the car to simulate it moving down the road and allowing it to intake a proper charge. Show us the log of the car's intake temp sensor on your dyno run if you really want to prove yourself.
 
#212 ·
Good to see Dave. Looks like breaking into the 11s on an unopened engine was easier than you thought it would be!

Entranced- I don't understand your comment(s). Prove myself? What is there to prove? If you need proof that the blower works fantastic, then just ask the guys that have one or take my word for it. There are a lot of guys running them. If they didn't work, don't you think it would be on the forums by now???
If you need proof that the blower is more efficient than the M62, then you haven't read this thread. The unopened TVS'ed cars run faster on the track than any other unopened M62 cars I've seen on the track (intercooled or not)... Faster than comparable unopened Lotus turbo'ed cars too. The compressor maps show the efficiency just as it has been covered in the thread. I accurately explained how to read the maps. If you doubt me, go take look.

All that said, I don't need to prove myself to you, nor do I care to. Not even sure why you care. Aren't you a turbo guy anyway? For the record, I don't even make a kit for the Celica. The thread is for informational purposes as to what can be done witht he blower and we're just scratching the surface. Heck ,the air isn't even intercooled yet and it's making very nice power on street, strip, and track.

For the guys who want surpercharged power, for whatever reason, I think this is good info. For those that don't, then they should look at some other option... Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything here...

PV
 
#213 ·
Yeah the oversized TVS 1320 is faster in Kans-ass and I know a few Lotus owners with VF kits that are just waitin for a little match race with a oversized TVS Lotus.....
That sucker is so missed sized for a 1.8 ltr. engine it's a fool that would drive it on the street......oh wait you don't, it's a little track monster....

SC low end lag......and when you finially add the intercooler you're workin on that you say it doesn't need it will be even slower/laggier in the lower RPM range,,,
 
#214 · (Edited)
Specifically Frank. If you have it within you...

1) What SPECIFIC trait do you think the blower has that makes it unstreetable?

2) What SPECIFIC reason(s) do you think make it over-sized?

3) What SPECIFIC examples can you find of users of the 1320 that don't enjoy the hell out of it on the street, AX, and track? Darksol does all three of those for instance... Do you?

4) The fact that you think an "over sized", as you put it, positive displacement blower can have low end lag is comical at best. It's physically impossible. Go to the local JuCo and take a class or jump on wiki for a while and read up...

5) Fastest quarter I've seen from a VF guy was 109mph through the traps... I'm sure the 8 mph delta was just from a bad launch.LOL. Watch Dave's vid. He didn't exactly drop the hammer off the line either... Watch my vids against a FF275 turbo car. I pull him on the straights with ease and that's well in to a track session. Those FF275 cars are decent running cars on the track by many measures. Real world experience, Frank. You can only argue with cut and paste snipets of posts from forums you're not allowed on and bunch of profanities. You have no proof to the contrary because it doesn't exist.
 
#217 ·
Whats the date on that email from Ken? 2006? Early 2007? I know Ken quite well professionally. I have spent hours with ken both via email and on the phone during the development. In his short reply to you, he says "probably too big". Just as Ken told me. Then, we (Ken and I) actually went through the numbers for the 2ZZ in particular. He didn't give your request the time of day. On the other hand, he did me, and we actually did the numbers together and found that the 1320 was PERFECT for a well breathing 2ZZ.

The FACT is that you cannot address any of those 5 questions or points and you still don't know what response or lag is and how relates to a positive displacement blower. It simply does NOT exist. You're making it up. A physical impossibility. It's not a degree of probability, it's an impossibility. Seriously man. You do NOT know what you're yapping about. It's called a compressor map. Look one up. I believe there's one in this thread.

Your "challenge"...
I bet you need that 10 grand after your last engine failure! :) Good luck on your newly decked block. Good decision making skills there too. So how much did you have to pay to have that engine removed, tore down to bare, decked, reassembled, and installed in just a couple days instead of waiting in line like everyone else? $5,000? $10,000??? hehehe

Put that pig of yours on the track for a season like everyone else to expose the real issues--- or are you scared? You want 5 laps? That's a joke. That's practically a drag race. Drive the car track-hard for an extended period of time or are you too worried about your precious paint? It's only paint, Frank. It's cheap. Or did you burn your mad money on the overtime you paid Tri-Point to fix your engine AGAIN? Maybe if you ask the wife nicely, she'll give you some more allowance... In the meantime, the guys that really know what's going will only give you an ear to be polite. Please, may I, and thank you mam. Just like Craig who politely said your car was great after driving it and walked away shaking his head in disgust.
 
#220 ·
Professionally ? What are you still blowin guys in the reststop...:eek:

Sure he saw a chump that didn't know better Turbo/fool...:fawk:
Here's your answer to your big 5 again...
So I guess my conversations with the guys a Magnasun/Harrop/Sprintex at SEMA never happened since you were there....:fawk:

Under boost at low rpm and over boost at high rpm....fool It's all about the size chump....:fawk: But you control the boost with vvt-i...:eek: fool

The block will be fine and if not I'll just make it better and faster, as for the money why do you care ya cheap ass chump ? Tri-Point my old company has nothing to do with my repair...where do you get this crap from Turbo/fool ?

You were in Kans-ass when Craig drove my car to a 1:27 min lap but I guess you need a hearing aid chump. Turn it up... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38UHf9-aBbA

I don't want a cent from the Ronin Challenge Series all winnings will go to my driver..:AF:

Time attack chump...put up or shut up Turbo/fool $10K

Hey do you guys know I was banned from two Lotus forums for callin out the bullshieters for rippin off the fools......?.....:blah::blah::blah::fawk:
 
#221 · (Edited)
Sorry but you're wrong it's the amount of CFM.... If the 1320 flows the right amount for low-mid RPM it will over boost at the higher RPM for a 1.8 ltr. engine. and if your target boost CFM is say 10 psi. at 8,500rpm the responce will suffer in the low-mid range.. There is no boost control on a roots blower. Now Turbo/fool thought he could control boost by keeping the cams overlaped to spill off excess boost but that screws the tune since he really doesn't get the VVt-IL timing thing....:fawk:
Hey Turbo/fool map this...:fawk:

Lotus chose the MP45 for the Elise S for it's drivabilty and that's why size matters......The MP62 for the Exige S for performance and racing..

Size matters..
 
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